Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Zoler]

I'm pretty sure shine only works if marth misses his timing.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

pivot grab out spaces the shine, but i believe they can just jump instead of shining and escape

 

[DuckPimp]

we need to sticky a guide on this or something cuz its been gone over a lot

 

[Bones0]

I wish someone could make a guide with explanations of how to do all of the characters' chain grabs and what DI can be used to escape at what %s, but it'd take forever and due to Melee being Melee, there'd be a ridiculous number of exceptions to certain things, certain ways to get out of stuff that only works if the chain grab is done slightly less than perfect, and mixups that can be used to get around stuff that can be gotten out of.

 

[Metal Reeper]

At 0% if Marth Uthrows Falco and Falco DI's behind, Marth cannot regrab him. That's why Marth's Fthrow>Fthrow>Fthrow then start chaingrabbing. At 19% they can stop DIing and shine you. Pivot grab outspaces the shine. At 31% if spacies DI the Uthrow you get a free tippered Utilt. If the spacies doesn't DI it's harder to combo off the tipper, especially if they have good DI then can get closer to the ground and tech. Also, Marth can Uthrow>Utilt>whatever Falcon at 42%

 

[Bones0]

At 0% if Marth Uthrows Falco and Falco DI's behind, Marth cannot regrab him. That's why Marth's Fthrow>Fthrow>Fthrow then start chaingrabbing. At 19% they can stop DIing and shine you. Pivot grab outspaces the shine. At 31% if spacies DI the Uthrow you get a free tippered Utilt. If the spacies doesn't DI it's harder to combo off the tipper, especially if they have good DI then can get closer to the ground and tech. Also, Marth can Uthrow>Utilt>whatever Falcon at 42%

Fun fact: spacies can buffer a roll or spot dodge out of the fthrows at any % with DI down and away.

You say they can stop DIing and shine at 19%, but can they DI AND shine out? I feel like that would beat pivot grabbing if they DI'd hard behind you or something. Are you saying Marth can uthrow -> utilt Falcon UP TO or AROUND 42%, or just at 42% exactly (which seems a lot less useful lol)? Also, do you know what %s/DIs are guaranteed fsmashes?

 

[DuckPimp]

Fun fact: spacies can buffer a roll or spot dodge out of the fthrows at any % with DI down and away.

so ya gotta be quick. and if they do it on reaction the first time, either dont do it again or predict and punish the roll or spotdodge

You say they can stop DIing and shine at 19%, but can they DI AND shine out? I feel like that would beat pivot grabbing if they DI'd hard behind you or something.

if they di marth will outrange the shine. he wont need to pivot grab. the pivot is on a no-di reaction in order to move out of the way when the shine occurs because he was going to be right where the spacie fell. if the spacie di's he will either have a much easier time with the pivot or just be able to grab again and not worry about the shine

 

[.Chipmunk.]

A spacie doesn't actually have to DI down and away > buffer roll. They can just buffer a spot dodge without DI and Marth cannot regrab. So yeah, it's more of a try it and see what happens thing.

 

[MT_]

If fox opts to simply jump out of the u-throw at 19%+ or whatever instead of shining, will the pivot-grab catch him?

 

[.Chipmunk.]

If fox opts to simply jump out of the u-throw at 19%+ or whatever instead of shining, will the pivot-grab catch him?

Yes. The jump and the shine would occur at roughly the same point because that's when stun would be over, so if you can pivot grab the shine you can pivot grab the jump.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Fun fact: spacies can buffer a roll or spot dodge out of the fthrows at any % with DI down and away.

You say they can stop DIing and shine at 19%, but can they DI AND shine out? I feel like that would beat pivot grabbing if they DI'd hard behind you or something. Are you saying Marth can uthrow -> utilt Falcon UP TO or AROUND 42%, or just at 42% exactly (which seems a lot less useful lol)? Also, do you know what %s/DIs are guaranteed fsmashes?

I know they can get out of the fthrow. they always buffer behind you.
If marth throws Falcon below 42% falcon can just jump out of it. Yes 42% combos into Utilt.
If a spacie DIs Marths Uthrow they don't go as high and it sets them up for an utilt. Spacies cannot DI the Uthrow at 19% and shine out.

 

[LittleBoyLarry]

Okay so this just happened. I was playing Marth vs CPU Falcon on FD. Falcon tried to spam jab me and I reacted with down-B. It seems like I "powershielded" his jab attemp with my counter.. has anyone experienced this before?

can't show any proof, but I know what I saw.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

if anyone could decipher wtf he said happened, it would be appreciated

 

[LittleBoyLarry]

Ha sorry. Lemme try to clear it up a bit. Pretty much what happened was I guess I down-B'ed with Marth as soon as Falcon hit with a jab. The following animation was as if you powershielded an attack, not a projectile, followed by Marth's down-b.

 

[DuckPimp]

so that little poof or flash or whatever?

 

[LittleBoyLarry]

Yeah, that poof.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sounds like you countered. Or maybe you powershielded and then countered.

 

[Bones0]

Is there a different animation for countering attacks vs. projectiles?

I thought you couldn't use B-moves out of powershields. Isn't it just jab, tilts, and smash attacks?

 

[Mahie]

You can use bmoves out of PS.

What you're talking about is called powercounter, and it has the white PS animation, so it only works with physical moves. Not sure what the frame data is, or if it is actually helpful to use the moment when it happens, since you counter in either case.

 

[Bones0]

Really? I can't believe I've never seen anyone powershield shine...

Samus players should powershield charge shot! :O

 

[Mahie]

Yeah I usually do stuff like Powershield into counter to avoid pillar attempts, so it definitely works (just PSing the aerial doesn't help if they shine with the proper timing, so using this technique cools them down and make them think twice about pressuring your shield, giving you room to breath).

 

[MasterShake]

Alright so I just noticed that after you dash attack there's this funky little timing where marth can jump with backwards momentum with no directional input. Can't think of an application. Help please.

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

i hate that. screws up my combos =3

 

[Bones0]

I hate when you dash attack and utilt immediately after and you sort of get dragged backwards like some sort of moonwalk and your utilt misses. D:

 

[ranmaru]

I misread that as ulti loooool.

I hate when you jab someone and then they get hit behind you a little bit and then you follow up assuming they'd still not be anywhere else and missss

I suck at those.

Somehow I jab jab > grab with Z. So A > A > Z and somehow I ****ing jab a third time. Why does this happen? : [

Also right now I'm making an effort to improve because I'm getting kinda... what's the word... like i'm slackin.

 

[MasterShake]

Z is like a combination of R and A and it messes everything up all the time.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

I misread that as ulti loooool.

I hate when you jab someone and then they get hit behind you a little bit and then you follow up assuming they'd still not be anywhere else and missss

I suck at those.

Somehow I jab jab > grab with Z. So A > A > Z and somehow I ****ing jab a third time. Why does this happen? : [

Also right now I'm making an effort to improve because I'm getting kinda... what's the word... like i'm slackin.

Because jab has 2 IASA points. It just so happens that the earlier one can only be another jab (A or Z), while the later one (only 1 frame sooner than the move ends) can be anything. It happens because your timing is off. It could be off by as little as one frame and you'll jab again instead of grab. A tip for you is to hold down after the jab. That will guarantee an IASA with crouch. You can grab after that, or use it just to learn the timing better so you can limit those pesky jab locks. I've been working on the same thing actually.

Another thing that I think is amazing that I've been doing is reverse fair > ff sourspot dair > grab. It's awesome, works amost every time because it's not expected so not DI'd, and your opponent will just be dumbfounded by the awesomeness.

 

[MasterShake]

Another thing that I think is amazing that I've been doing is reverse fair > ff sourspot dair > grab. It's awesome, works amost every time because it's not expected so not DI'd, and your opponent will just be dumbfounded by the awesomeness.

Can you expand on this a little more because I'm having a lot of trouble visualizing it.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Can you expand on this a little more because I'm having a lot of trouble visualizing it.

Yeah, sure thing. I mainly do it to fox as a chain grab continuation. After the uthrow > utilt > regrab, I usually uthrow again with another utilt. I quickly read the DI, and if it's slightly behind you can reverse fair to send them backwards, but it's fox. So he falls below you a little bit as he gets sent backwards. You could dair right away and floor him, but then you have to tech chase. Instead, I like to fast fall dair which hits in the middle of the sword and pops him back up instead of down. L canceling the move gives you enough time to regrab. I've yet to see anybody get out of it when I'm actually successful doing it so I think it's guaranteed, I just need to get more consistent with it.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I've never seen the sourspot dair thing but you can just FF the reverse fair and get a grab in that situation. The dair is unnecessary, though I suppose it'd look pretty cool.

Alright so I just noticed that after you dash attack there's this funky little timing where marth can jump with backwards momentum with no directional input. Can't think of an application. Help please.

I've known about this for a while, but I still can't find a way to use it either...

 

[DuckPimp]

Yeah, sure thing. I mainly do it to fox as a chain grab continuation. After the uthrow > utilt > regrab, I usually uthrow again with another utilt. I quickly read the DI, and if it's slightly behind you can reverse fair to send them backwards, but it's fox. So he falls below you a little bit as he gets sent backwards. You could dair right away and floor him, but then you have to tech chase. Instead, I like to fast fall dair which hits in the middle of the sword and pops him back up instead of down. L canceling the move gives you enough time to regrab. I've yet to see anybody get out of it when I'm actually successful doing it so I think it's guaranteed, I just need to get more consistent with it.

stealing this

love it

 

[Dr Peepee]

Is there a thread with information on Marth's moves in terms of frames(startup, cooldown, length of time a move is out)?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

[collapse=Marth Frame Data]

by SuperDoodleMan

If you don't understand a term, look
it up in the Terminology txt
-------------------------------------
Slash 1

Total: 27
Hit: 4-7
Window of the second slash: 3-27
Second slash starts: 20
IASA: 26
-------------------------------------
Slash 2

Total: 28
Hit: 5-9
IASA: 27
-------------------------------------
F Tilt

Total: 35
Hit: 7-10
-------------------------------------
D Tilt

Total: 49
Hit: 7-9
IASA: 20 (CAN'T INTERRUPT W/ SHIELD)
-------------------------------------
U Tilt

Total: 39
Hit: 6-12
IASA: 32
-------------------------------------
Dash attack

Total: 49
Hit: 12-15
IASA: 40
-------------------------------------
F Smash

Total: 49
Hit: 10-13
Charge frame: 3
IASA: 48
-------------------------------------
U Smash

Total: 54
Hit: 13-16
Charge frame: 7
IASA: 46
-------------------------------------
D Smash

Total: 64
Hit: 5-7, 20-22
Charge frame: 3
IASA: 62
-------------------------------------
N-Air

Total: 49
Hit: 6-7, 15-21
Auto cancel: <5 25>
Landlag: 15
Lcanceled: 7
-------------------------------------
U-Air

Total: 45
Hit: 5-8
Auto cancel: <4 27>
Landlag: 15
Lcanceled: 7
-------------------------------------
B-Air

Total: 39
Hit: 7-11
IASA: 35
Auto cancel: 32>
Landlag: 24
Lcanceled: 12
-------------------------------------
D-Air

Total: 59
Hit: 6-9
Auto cancel: <5 48>
Landlag: 32
Lcanceled: 16
-------------------------------------
F-Air

Total: 33
Hit: 4-7
IASA: 30
Auto cancel: 27>
Landlag: 15
Lcanceled: 7
-------------------------------------
Ledge stand <100%

Total: 32
Invulnerable: 1-30
-------------------------------------
Ledge stand 100%>

Total: 58
Invulnerable: 1-55
-------------------------------------
Ledge Roll <100%

Total: 48
Invulnerable: 1-38
-------------------------------------
Ledge Roll 100%>

Total: 78
Invulnerable: 1-56
-------------------------------------
Ledge attack <100%

Total: 54
Hit: 24-27
Invulnerable: 1-20
-------------------------------------
Ledge attack 100%>

Total: 68
Hit: 38-41
Invulnerable: 1-34
-------------------------------------
Ledge jump <100%

Total: 50
Invulnerable: 1-11
Soonest FF: 42
-------------------------------------
Ledge Jump 100%>

Total: 57
Invulnerable: 1-18
Soonest FF: 49
-------------------------------------
Get up from the ground

Total: 30
Invulnerable: 1-22
-------------------------------------
Roll from the ground

Total: 35
Invulnerable: 1-19
-------------------------------------
Standup attack A from facedown

Total: 49
Hit: 22-23, 27-28
Invulnerable: 1-28
-------------------------------------
Standup attack A from face up

Total: 49
Hit: 20-23, 30-31
Invulnerable: 1-31
-------------------------------------
Grab

Total: 30
Grab: 7-8
-------------------------------------
Running Grab

Total: 40
Grab: 10-11
-------------------------------------
Counter

Total: 59
Counters: 5-29

--when it counters--
Total: 46
Hit: 14-20 (or 1 frame later for real
strong moves)
Invincible 1-16
-------------------------------------
Sword Dance

note: consecutive attacks start right
away when pressed in the window

--F1--
Total: 29
Hit: 6-8
Window for attack 2: 9-26

--F2--
Total: 40
Hit: 14-16
Window for attack 3: 17-33

--U2--
Total: 40
Hit: 12-15
Window for attack 3: 17-32

--F3--
Total: 46
Hit: 11-14
Window for attack 4: 16-37

--U3--
Total: 46
Hit: 13-17
Window for attack 4: 18-38

--D3--
Total: 46
Hit: 15-18
Window for attack 4: 19-35

--F4--
Total: 50
Hit: 23-26

--U4--
Total: 50
Hit: 20-25

--D4--
Total: 60
Hit: 13-15, 19-21, 25-27, 31-33,
37-38
-------------------------------------
Shield Breaker

time to get to charging: 11 frames
Hit (from release of B): 5-10
Max charge time: 121 frames
-------------------------------------
Dolphin Slash

Total: 39
Hit: 5-10
Invulnerable: 5
Landfallspeciallag: 34
-------------------------------------
Taunt

Total: 93
WTF HE SAY???: 2
-------------------------------------

Jump: airborne on frame 5

Air time: 59
Earliest FF: 31
FF air time: 45

SH air time: 38
Earliest FF: 20
SH FF air time: 26

2nd jump earliest FF: 26
-------------------------------------

Air dodge
Invulnerable 4-29 out of 49

Ground dodge
invulnerable 2-18 out of 27

Roll
invulnerable 4-19 out of 35 (forward)
invulnerable 4-23 out of 35 (back)

landing lag: 4 frames

Dash becomes run at frame 16
Turn-jump Threshold: 31
run turnaround: 51

_______________
final line

[/collapse]

 

[Dr Peepee]

Whoa

thanks Sveet! =)

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

See also: the sticky thread named "Marth hitboxes and Frame Data"

 

[.Chipmunk.]

I've never seen the sourspot dair thing but you can just FF the reverse fair and get a grab in that situation. The dair is unnecessary, though I suppose it'd look pretty cool.



I've known about this for a while, but I still can't find a way to use it either...

You...don't need the dair? Or falling uair? Or falling bair? Marth is hella gay. haha. Nah, I thought it was needed because fox gets sent below you and would hit the ground before you did if he ff as well.

stealing this

love it

I've got a bunch of nifty tricks I've been working on lately using uncanny movement/move sequences. I've even got a pretty consistent chaingrab going on puff. Haven't tested out all the DI stuff yet nor do I know the exact percents it works on but it's pretty ****. It's basically a 0 to death on YS and perhaps even BF or FD. I'll let you know more when I have more.

 

[MasterShake]

If it's the dthrow one it doesn't work lol.

 

[ShroudedOne]

He probably means the fthrow one. Puff would be DI'ing that down to avoid a tipper, so Marth should be able to CG her a bit. I'm not familiar with the percents though, and if the Puff is semi-decent, she'll realize she needs to change up her DI. So...it's a good thing to throw them off for a little.

 

[Strong Badam]

As KK alluded to, Fox's uthrow is one of those DI specific moves. Only left/right DI is read. DIing up, down, etc does nothing.

This is true for every move. DIing at the same angle as the original trajectory, or at a 180 degree offset, does nothing.

*behind on these threads :/*

 

[.Chipmunk.]

If it's the dthrow one it doesn't work lol.

He probably means the fthrow one. Puff with be DI'ing that down to avoid a tipper, so Marth should be able to CG her a bit. I'm not familiar with the percents though, and if the Puff is semi-decent, she'll realize she needs to change up her DI. So...it's a good thing to throw them off for a little.

You'll see it eventually.