Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[ranmaru]

Wow I'm so dumb... for a minute there I was wondering what chipmunk was talking about with this reverse fair sourspot dair grab combo thing...

Until I looked at the character section we are in. xDDD

(I was searching for threads on improvement so that's how I found this thread)

lol

But thanks for the Iasa explanation dude

 

[stelzig]

Yeah I usually do stuff like Powershield into counter to avoid pillar attempts, so it definitely works (just PSing the aerial doesn't help if they shine with the proper timing, so using this technique cools them down and make them think twice about pressuring your shield, giving you room to breath).

I always spotdodge when I try to dtilt/downB out of powershield.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

That means you are pressing down too late. You should be inputting the down input during the hitlag and shieldstun, and then B when the shieldstun ends. Tbh I'm not sure what kind of leeway there is for inputting an attack out of a powershield, so maybe ill look into that

 

[Mahie]

I just jump then downB to avoid spotdodging, but you'll need to correct your timing if you want to dtilt.

 

[stelzig]

Well I don't care too much since I don't really use either of those moves out of a powershield (Hardly use powershield in actual matches at all at the moment ). Nice to hear that it is possible though.

Mahie: If you're jumping first anyway, then you don't need to powershield...

 

[ArcNatural]

Unknown522 and Weon-X can consistently do the FJ single hit uair on my Sheik if I DI the throw for a certain range because... that's a legit combo for a certain percent range. It's actually not that hard to do on the horizontal DIs at the appropriate percents because the second hit of the uair has more range than the first. So it's just... timing. And the timing window is actually pretty forgiving on a lot of characters.

Marth is one of them, although his percent window is significantly smaller than that of Sheik's. Sheik's is enormous and I hate it lolz.

I almost always hit the single hit upair when I want to do it. All I do is place the upair right next to them while then DI'ing into them with it. Second hitbox is bigger, and it looks like a normal upair so people try to smash DI and they don't get hit with the 1st part. It's insanely easy once you understand the hitbox difference.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I just jump then downB to avoid spotdodging, but you'll need to correct your timing if you want to dtilt.

doing this out of a powershield has no frame benefits over regular shielding then jumping and countering. Powershielding simply allows you to do things out of shield you can't normally; shield stun and hitlag are the same. Powershield->grab is the same as shield->grab

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

This is true for every move. DIing at the same angle as the original trajectory, or at a 180 degree offset, does nothing.

*behind on these threads :/*

My response to this was:

I had considered that, but I don't think thats it.

Take for example Marth's fsmash facing right. Lets say the default trajectory is 45 degrees up and to the right. That would mean that if you held up 45 degrees and to the right or down 45 degrees and to the left, you would experience no change in trajectory. This is true, and consistent with Fox's uthrow. However, if you map out the other angles of Marth's fsmash, connecting a line between him and his opponent up to when they escape hitstun, you'd get a semicircle. Do a similar thing with Fox and his uthrow and you get a triangle...

I might be wrong but I think there is more to this than simple default trajectory DI shenanigans.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You lost me when you started talking about semi circles and triangles

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Wow I'm so dumb... for a minute there I was wondering what chipmunk was talking about with this reverse fair sourspot dair grab combo thing...

Until I looked at the character section we are in. xDDD

(I was searching for threads on improvement so that's how I found this thread)

lol

But thanks for the Iasa explanation dude

No problem. Forgot to mention that you can watch Marth's feet for IASA as well. The moment his foot slides back to its original position, you can interrupt the attack. Works with dash attack, dtilt, and jab. I dunno what other IASA moves he's got, but I'm sure it works for them as well.

 

[Bones0]

I hate kids who pretend they have some super secret technique instead of just telling people...

All of the IASA are in the hitbox thread, btw. Most moves are only 1-2 frames iirc.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Bones wtf are you talking about? On both accounts

 

[.Chipmunk.]

I hate kids who pretend they have some super secret technique instead of just telling people...

All of the IASA are in the hitbox thread, btw. Most moves are only 1-2 frames iirc.

Right, because mentally counting frames is easy. I just learned the foot thing today actually. Or are you referring to the jigglypuff combo/cg I was talking about? I didn't say anything about it because I don't know if it's guaranteed, and I don't want to put people into bad habits. /shrug

 

[ranmaru]

I hate kids who pretend they have some super secret technique instead of just telling people...

All of the IASA are in the hitbox thread, btw. Most moves are only 1-2 frames iirc.

Well I asked about me not being able to grab after jab > jab and he explained it was due to the Iasa or something. Regardless if Iasa was defined in the hitbox thread, I wouldn't have known THAT is why I had to hit down after jabbing to make sure I grab.

 

[Bones0]

I was talking about the mysterious Jiggs chain grab that can't be explained because it is just too much of a mind**** for our tiny brains to comprehend.

I was just pointing out that the IASA frames were listed in the hitbox thread because he said he didn't know what other moves had them.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

I was talking about the mysterious Jiggs chain grab that can't be explained because it is just too much of a mind**** for our tiny brains to comprehend.

I was just pointing out that the IASA frames were listed in the hitbox thread because he said he didn't know what other moves had them.

No, I wanna explain it, but it's like telling friends a recipe you wrote without having cooked it yourself to see if it actually tastes good. Trust me, when I have more to go on I'll talk about it further. Hopefully even post a video with it in there.

 

[Mahie]

doing this out of a powershield has no frame benefits over regular shielding then jumping and countering. Powershielding simply allows you to do things out of shield you can't normally; shield stun and hitlag are the same. Powershield->grab is the same as shield->grab

Maybe I don't jump then, all I know is that I counter the shine after PSing the aerials.

Also there are imputs that enable you to do anything out of PS.

 

[stelzig]

It doesn't matter if it enables you to do anything out of a powershield when shieldstun and hitlag are the same. It merely makes you able to cancel the shielddrop lag with more than just grab and jump, that's all.

Have you ever tried countering those shines without powershielding btw?

 

[Mahie]

Have you? I don't know how you'd counter it after a late dair from Falco if you haven't PS'd aforementioned dair.

Also there's more to PS than just " lol same hitstun and shieldlag".

 

[stelzig]

If the Dair is late enough, I don't see how it would ever be possible for you. A perfect PS>counter is still only 2 frames faster than simply grabbing.

Yeah ok, it also pushes you further back.

 

[Mahie]

Can't be arsed to search through my videos, but it is possible, just go ahead and try.

 

[stelzig]

I'm not sure what exactly you would prove by showing me a video of you getting a counter oos.
I would love if powershield was actually more powerful than from what i've heard, but when both AJP and strong_bad have seemed to agree on how it works, then I have trouble believing it.

As promised, frame data on Pillaring:

Green = Their Shield is in stun
Red = Their Shield is not in stun

Early Pillar (dair asap out of shine):

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne (start Dair)
14
15
16
17 Dair Hits, Hitlag
18 Hitlag
19 Hitlag
20 Hitlag
21 Hitlag
22 Hitlag
23 Hitlag
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32 Fast Fall
33
34
35
36 Land, LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag
45 Shine again

Ideal Pillar (Typical Pillar):

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21 Start Dair
22
23
24
25
26 Dair Hits, HitLag, Fast Fall
27 Hitlag
28 Hitlag
29 Hitlag
30 Hitlag
31 Hitlag
32 Hitlag
33
34
35
36 Land- LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag
45 Shine again

Late Dair (Dair hits right before landing)

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 Start Dair
26 Fast Fall
27
28
29 Dair Hits, Hitlag
30 Hitlag
31 Hitlag
32 Hitlag
33 Hitlag
34 Hitlag
35 Hitlag
36 Land, LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag
45 Shine Again


I hope this clarifies everything for everyone, but i have a feeling it's going to generate more questions than answers. This just goes to show, The pillar is not as safe as you think.

Edit: this is the kind of **** you should quote in the first post.

Are you saying you can get a counter out in two frames?
As far as I can tell a counter oos can hit the ideal pillar if it is done perfectly and a normal counter oos can hit the early pillar. But the late? The move itself is not even fast enough.

Edit: That said, I now tried doing a powershield counter against a CPU and I don't seem to have the spotdodging problem anymore so I guess that's nice

 

[Mahie]

I never said the the late dair was frame perfect either though, in which case I'd just WD OOS instead of anything else, especially given where it would hit me. Or I could also just grab.

Look, I don't really care about what you think. If you don't want to believe me, so be it, remember, I'm the one able to do it.

 

[stelzig]

Marth's jump is airborne on 5 frames so I don't think you'd be able to wavedash oos either

The late Dair wasn't the one that you had to be frame perfect to counter btw, that was just the ideal Dair. It's cool that you get it to work and all, I still stand by powershielding being very bad for marth compared to other characters. But that counter is 2 frames faster than shieldgrabbing is of course still an advantage - just not if you jump before doing it. Congrats if you don't and all

 

[Mahie]

Whatevs. I don't think you have anything to teach me when it comes to Powershielding, and I don't play Super Theory Bros., so I don't care much about all of that. If something works , it works, if it doesn't, it doesn't; assuming you're smart enough to make up the theorems based off what you see in freeplay.

 

[stelzig]

I already told you it's fine if it works. I don't see why you're so extremely opposed to actually finding out how it works though. Or why you seem to take my comments so personal. I'm not trying to criticize you and I know you are good at powershielding. =/

 

[Mahie]

I already told you it's fine if it works. I don't see why you're so extremely opposed to actually finding out how it works though. Or why you seem to take my comments so personal. I'm not trying to criticize you and I know you are good at powershielding. =/

I don't know, I just found your tone to be disrespectful from the get-go. If I read your posts in the wrong fashion, then I apologize, my bad.

 

[stelzig]

Well as I said I would LOVE to be proven wrong in the mechanics of powershielding because I am actually kinda disappointed in how low reward it seems to give most characters. Luckily I switched to maining sheik who has a ****load of quick moves that can combo and give lots of damage and stuff (as well as a huge shield) so I haven't by any means given up on trying to implement it. Especially not against predictable falco aerials

Don't know how I should've worded my question, on wether you had tried to do it without powershielding before, differently btw. But I guess the internet just isn't personal enough and misunderstandings happen. Would still like you to try it out if you haven't - maybe you're underestimating its general viability. I remember seeing a german smasher using counter oos a fair amount before (might even have been ice )

 

[Mahie]

Yeah I understand what you mean now.

Although I guess not going for PS is safer, it takes away from the psychological advantage, as well as allowing then to damage your shield and so on.
All in all, if I'm sure I can go for a PS and it has the same post-lag effects as a normal shield, then I'd go for the PS none the less.

PS > Counter isn't even that great of a technique by the way, if the Falco doesn't shine, you're screwed. It's more of a thing to force them into respecting your range and defensive abilities, if you take their weapons away one by one, like lasering and then pillaring, they'll eventually start playing in a way that allows you to go in more easily.

 

[ArcNatural]

I have a friend who routinely as Falcon or Sheik will run into aerials (making them non ideal) to PS jab or dsmash.

For Marth it's not that great given that your ideal punish on pillaring is grab in the first place. But ideally minimizing your time in shield makes you more mobile. And nothing makes Falco worse than you not only PS'ing lasers but PS'ing all his aerials too :D.

I think Mahie regardless of the fact that your powershielding along with countering (which is awesome) I think you just have the timing for countering down perfectly within pillars, which is great. And regardless, I still think PS'ing aerials is going to become more and more popular as well.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Powershield dsmash is ur best bet

 

[Bones0]

Powershielding attacks is worthless as Marth. Why can't people accept this? It's like everyone wants to be some powershield fiend, but then they want to ignore that there are almost no benefits to powershielding outside of your shield not shrinking as fast.

@Stelzig
If you want to powershield dtilt, I'd imagine you can prevent spot dodges by only tilting down slightly as if you were tilting your shield. If you go too far you will spot dodge. I think it'd make it even easier to crouch before shielding without tilting the stick too far because then you could just let go of L/R and press A and you would already be tilting the stick correctly for a dtilt.

 

[Metal Reeper]

powersheld>fair is pretty good.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I feel like you havent read anything in the last few posts Metal Reeper. Powershielding does not do anything to make jumping OoS faster.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I have a friend who routinely as Falcon or Sheik will run into aerials (making them non ideal) to PS jab or dsmash.

For Marth it's not that great given that your ideal punish on pillaring is grab in the first place. But ideally minimizing your time in shield makes you more mobile. And nothing makes Falco worse than you not only PS'ing lasers but PS'ing all his aerials too :D.

I think Mahie regardless of the fact that your powershielding along with countering (which is awesome) I think you just have the timing for countering down perfectly within pillars, which is great. And regardless, I still think PS'ing aerials is going to become more and more popular as well.

Are there any benefits to powershielding aerials as Marth(in any matchup honestly)? I've heard it allows you to do grounded moves much faster than if you shielded first, but I don't know if that even offers any (frame) advantages.

Sorry for being a PS noob but I don't think I've ever read a post fully discussing the mechanic. If anyone would be willing to explain it to me I'd greatly appreciate it. =)

 

[stelzig]

It's been explained a few times on the previous page
What you heard is what it does. Makes you able to cancel the lag from dropping your shield with a ground move (you still can't walk/run/crouch). Utilt, dsmash, counter and jab are slightly faster than grabbing, but I agree with Bones that it isn't really worth it with marth.

 

[Bones0]

Basically PP, you can use ground moves as you let go of shield (instead of having all that laggy BS after you let go of shield where you are immobile). Even though it applies to all ground moves, most are useless and/or jump cancellable.

So you can powershield counter, but JC counter is virtually the same thing, but 1 frame slower. Same thing with up smash. Shield grabbing isn't faster at all because you don't have to JC. So what it leaves is this:
- Jab
- Utilt
- Ftilt
- Dtilt
- Fsmash
- Dsmash
- Neutral B
- Side B

Then to top it all of, if you powershield, let's say, Falco's late dair, by the time you are out of stun to even begin letting go of shield, you'll be shined before any of those moves can be used anyway.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I was thinking it'd be more useful if you powershielded a spaced move and retaliated with a ground move....would that be it's main benefit to Marth then?

Even if it can't hit it would still be good to reverse pressure/keep the opponent honest right? They couldn't rush you if you could PS their spaced move and have things like jab keep them out.

 

[Anand]

So you can powershield counter, but JC counter is virtually the same thing, but 1 frame slower. Same thing with up smash.

Ummm, can you counter out of jumpsquat? I assumed you could only counter on the first airborne frame (like a JC shine, rather than like a JC grab), so it would be more than 1 additional frame...

 

[lord karn]

I was thinking it'd be more useful if you powershielded a spaced move and retaliated with a ground move....would that be it's main benefit to Marth then?

Even if it can't hit it would still be good to reverse pressure/keep the opponent honest right? They couldn't rush you if you could PS their spaced move and have things like jab keep them out.

The powershield basically juts gets rid of the need for the shield drop animation, which normally takes something like 13 frames (I don't know the exact amount). So it's important to time the move still, because you still have to wait for the shieldstun to be over. If you do it too early, you'll roll/jump/spot dodge. If you could get powershielding down with marth it would make it really hard to space on your shield if you could always threaten with fsmash or d/ftilt(I think grab would usually just be better than jab).