Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Niko45]

zhuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

 

[Veetaak]

I haven't seen Zhu play a marth for ages haha

Zhu is **** though

 

[Beat!]

He played a really hype set against M2K at a No Johns monthly just a few months ago (august or september)...

 

[Veetaak]

Oh

How did it go?

EDIT: I've probably seen it but my memory sucks monkey balls

 

[Beat!]

M2K was about to 3-0 him when he screwed up the last, super easy edge guard and SD'd. Then he got two stocked next game, switched to Sheik, and lost on Brinstar.

Zhu played really well the entire set but M2K was always a step ahead up until that screwed up edge guard.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

edit;

zhus been quite inactive but i hear he's been playing more lately for apex. but i mean people think zhu when you say top falco, and he's hardly a active top competitor..shows something

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

as of now zhu is quite inactive

Eh, kind of. A month ago maybe, but hes actually been really active the last few weeks; training up for APEX.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

haha random timing i edited as you said that, but yeah.

 

[Niko45]

zhu is a top level player for sure wtf. Dude's got a whole bunch of top 5s at mega nationals. How many people have beaten m2k, period?

Which reminds me, forgot about Axe.

 

[leffen]

using Axe or Zhu as examples for people who "dont mess up/make mistakes" is kinda ridiculous - they both play very weird and they both mess up a lot.

I don't really think neither of them is that far ahead of me or the other falcos, either.


Its really just Dr PP bias imo


edit:
Zhu placed 13th at his last national (pound 5) - didnt attend G2
Axe placed 17th with 4th seed at Genesis 2, won his matches with pikachu.

I placed 17th with 2nd seed at Genesis 2

But nvm, they CLEARLY outclass me and I have NO idea on how the marth matchup works guys.

and before you go "omg zhu much better nao he do good regional!!" please, stop being so ****ing biased. What is to say that I haven't done the same? and even if you think hes still better,- how is anyone but dr pp THAT much above european falcos.

Protip: they aren't.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

lol niko idk what you saw me say but i wasn't saying that, if you're referring to 'active top competitor' then i'm referring to how often he competes at top level, which isn't very often. He clearly is a top level player himself, but he hasn't participated in a national in awhile :s

 

[Veetaak]

leffen will walk into the Apex venue with the EU flag in hand like a baws and push it into the soil of America to then claim it to be his.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k

 

[Divinokage]

leffen will walk into the Apex venue with the EU flag in hand like a baws and push it into the soil of America to then claim it to be his.

And then I will burn it in purple flames.

 

[OverLord]

I tell you guys from experience that it's way easier to get how Ice is good in neutral game against Falco while playing him, so you all will just see at Apex how bad can be that MU for the freaking bird.


Also, Diakonos too knows his stuff against Falco.

 

[Mew2King]

Man im sorry but if taj does it AGAIN I'll be more impressed. Taj played great, but I do not think PP played good by normal pp standards and I don't think Mango played intelligent vs him (up 3 stock to 1 and keeps going to the ledge... fsmash a shield at 0% for no reason then recover like a newb... -_-.... then on yoshis story he dies in the STUPIDEST WAYS, like dropping below the ledge for no reason when he could just ledge roll and dying at super low % several times when it was all easily avoidable and due to mango doing stupid things... ugh it was ******** -_- it was mango's fault for playing too overconfident/cocky but having that happen so many times does not convince me that marth beats falco but rather that he just newbed it up a bunch of times)

i still think falco ***** marth

and i know mangos fox ***** taj but my marth beat his fox all the games i got w/ him cept 1 so I don't think fox does better vs marth than falco does at all I think it's the opposite. his falco usually 2 stocks me. I understand that I'm much stronger against Fox than Falco, but I do honestly think falco's better vs marth by quite a bit UNLESS u get powershielding down OR they don't play super good (and I feel like honestly some controllers are far easier to powershield with than others). I feel like if both falco and marth are playing really good, falco has a pretty good advantage, and you can't just say "taj did better" because that would also "prove" fox ***** marth but i don't think he does.

 

[Mew2King]

Not saying that his neutral game is perfect by any means, but he displays a lot of legit options that aren't really used at all by many top marths. It still remains to be refined but I think he has got a better basic understanding then anyone else tbh.

Also, it being close is partly due to it consisting of my CPs with no bans on lol.

His neutral game did more or less force me to forget standard lasering too which I don't really feel I have to do vs ANY other marth (not in the US either, armada said the same thing and he has played falco vs m2k plenty lol).

2 things:

1) Armada played falco vs me in ... I think it was that one friendly only. I don't think we even got more than 1 game. I could be wrong, but that is not what I remember and I don't think I'm wrong

2) how is the neutral game played? name things you know please

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Man im sorry but if taj does it AGAIN I'll be more impressed. Taj played great, but I do not think PP played good by normal pp standards and I don't think Mango played intelligent vs him (up 3 stock to 1 and keeps going to the ledge... fsmash a shield at 0% for no reason then recover like a newb... -_-.... then on yoshis story he dies in the STUPIDEST WAYS, like dropping below the ledge for no reason when he could just ledge roll and dying at super low % several times when it was all easily avoidable and due to mango doing stupid things... ugh it was ******** -_- it was mango's fault for playing too overconfident/cocky but having that happen so many times does not convince me that marth beats falco but rather that he just newbed it up a bunch of times)

dont you wish mang0 played like this vs you?

 

[ShroudedOne]

Damn...that was unnecessary, ShadwPhoenx...

 

[Mew2King]

that's funny you say that, mango tells me he "doesn't give respect" to other marths. Those were his words, not mine.

leffen name stuff about the neutral game in marth vs falco.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Judging by the tantrum he threw when he lost, I'd say Mango was definitely playing to win vs Taj.

 

[linkoninja]

Judging by the tantrum he threw when he lost, I'd say Mango was definitely playing to win vs Taj.

yet he ***** him easily in Losers Finals. I think he got sent to Losers on purpose because he wanted to eliminate PP, but Mango didn't take into account that Shroomed was actually good xD and he eliminated PP instead. Against Armada though: he got the business handed to him.

 

[Beat!]

He didn't play Falco in LFs...

If he REALLY wasn't trying against Taj in WS, wouldn't the biggest humiliation/whatever be to just 3-0 destroy him with Falco in LFs?

 

[Niko45]

I really can't deal with the ridiculous theories about why Mango lost to Taj. Here's what happened: he lost. It's ok guys. He lost.

Basically yea he went for something dumb and risky in game 1 by dairing on the cloud and generally being sloppy off stage and getting gimped. He underestimated him. After that it was completely serious business.

It probably cost him G2 to lose that set so idk why he would lose on purpose.

 

[linkoninja]

Beating Dr.PP was more important than beating Armada?

 

[Niko45]

Watch the set again. Game 1 it's sloppy jank edgeguarding and thereafter it's just methodical ledge stand dsmashing over and over and over again.

And Mango gets shield grabbed a surprising amount of the time in general so I'm not surprised he was getting gimped.

If you're going to say he was off his game that's one thing but losing on purpose is absurd (he sure cut it close if he was trying to lose anyway...).

 

[Mew2King]

maybe he was trying, but mangos words were "i didn't respect him" and he died in so many stupid ways that if he took that match more seriously would not have happened. On YS he double jumped from the ledge and went under the stage once or twice for NO reason. He could have just ledge got up, invincible aerial, or rolled. Maybe mango just made a really bad decision? Except he made SEVERAL really bad decisions. MY point is that doesn't show the marth vs falco MU but more so that mango ****ed up in stupid times so many times, and that wouldn't happen again. That's all I'm saying. I studied those vids to try to see good ways to win in taht MU, but I found that way too much "unlucky" or "cocky-maneuvers" mango did that he simply wouldn't do against me (which he also said to me when i asked him about it). I still think falco ***** marth, if both falco and marth are playing perfectly. There is one way this wouldn't be the case, and that is if marth has perfect powershielding. Who knows maybe I'm wrong; PP admitted that he studied a lot of my vids to learn my style specifiaclly and he thinks that gave him an advantage, so maybe that is another factor? All I know is that set definitely does NOT convince me of marth beating falco, I think it's at least 6:4 in favor of falco.

as far as marth vs fox, I think it's 50:50 more or less. If fox wins, it's by a VERY small amount.

 

[t3h Icy]

If it were any other player, they wouldn't get away with all the johns Mango makes.

 

[Niko45]

Yea m2k I pretty much agree with everything you have ever said regarding marth vs fox and falco. I might say that Marth slightly beats Fox just because I don't think Fox has good ways to get in on Marth without the Marth making a real mistake and Fox also has no great tools for forcing those mistakes so idk I see that as slight Marth favor and with powershielding involved I think Marth Falco is more slight Falco but w/e, pretty much the same principle relatively speaking.

Game 1 Mango underestimated him definitely but I think everything afterwards was legit. It definitely doesn't mean Marth beats Falco since it was so close and that's with a lot of gimps and gimping is inherently a bit lucky because you are just setting up 50/50s (and in some cases being wrong can lead to your own death so it's very high risk high reward).

Like prime example in game 3 where Taj makes a 3 stock comeback on battlefield what happens is with 2 stocks left he gets mango off stage and goes for the dropzone fair to gimp and mango hesitated on his jump back probably to do some type of normal recovery and he gimped him. On the last stock he throws mango off and mango DJs back with dair into Taj's counter. If he had gone for the run off fair when Mango went for the DJ dair he would have gotten killed by the dair (see m2k vs zhu Genesis 1). Since he guessed right both times he pulled it out but guessing wrong in either scenario changes things drastically. Now obviously there is some level of reading on these gimps but ultimately it is still a guess.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

^ teh icey
but thats only because its basically a fact that Mango is better than Taj

 

[Winston]

MY point is that doesn't show the marth vs falco MU but more so that mango ****ed up in stupid times so many times, and that wouldn't happen again.

Johning or no, I think that point is pretty valid. Except for game 5, Mango definitely dominated the neutral game and non-gimp punish game in that set.

And it's not like I'm arbitrarily discounting gimps; I think that most of them were unforced in the sense that it didn't really make sense for Mango to put himself in those situations. I think a lot of those can be counted as player mistakes rather than forced mistakes or even 50/50 situations.

 

[leffen]

tl dr:
when marth misses every single power shield and doesn't tech extremely easy dsmashes when recoverying (look at the set) = fault of character.

when falco takes a high reward high risk and doesnt win=mangos fault

when falco takes a high reward high risk and gains something and m2k gets 4 stocked=marth is a horrible character


jeez you are so boring

 

[Niko45]

Idk why but teching Falco dsmash is really hard for me compared to other ledge stuff.

 

[Winston]

Okay then, so they both didn't play the matchup correctly, why are we using it as evidence either way for how the matchup is?

 

[Tee ay eye]

Idk why but teching Falco dsmash is really hard for me compared to other ledge stuff.

i think falco players usually delay the d-smash

 

[Niko45]

yea and sometimes they opt to get hit by the up B and cc dsmash sometimes and it throws me off.

 

[Winston]

I feel like if you sweetspot well then you grab the edge before they can CC dsmash

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

taj is legit, **** the haters

 

[KirbyKaze]

Also, Diakonos too knows his stuff against Falco.

Didn't he lose to like, every good Falco he played at the last APEX?

 

[Divinokage]

taj is legit, **** the haters

See what I had to go through 2 years ago? It's the SAME ****.