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[Fortress | Sveet]

I liked a lot of things but didn't like some things. I'm not in a critique mood and not a very good critiquer anyways, but i'd say increase the edgeguard success statistic

 

[Niko45]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=BndcZn1ymm0

buddy of mine could really use some critique, this ones vs. falcon.

please? :D

Biggest thing is to stop up throwing Falcon. There aren't many windows where you have true combos off up throw and what he's doing is setting himself up for Falcon to live forever by just doing up throw nair which just builds damage and doesn't really set up an edgeguard opportunity or much of a follow up. At really low % you can go for the up tilts tech chases under a platform but on FD you should really just learn to fthrow tech chase well. You want to be as gay as possible with regrabs and try to push him towards the edge where you can poke him off and hopefully get a gimp or an edgeguard.

He seems like a pretty smart player at times but his fingers are just behind. Gotta touch up those wavelands and fastfalls. Work on getting on taking the ledge much much faster. He approaches with down tilt but doesn't seem to have a plan for after that as he just seems to dtilt again so whenever he actually approaches he needs to have some sort of plan for every scenario that can happen (hit, shielded, whiff, getting hit).

When Falcon regrabs the ledge a horrible habit that a lot of Marths have is to do an empty short hop backwards which is a free up air + huge combo for Falcon so he should try to get into the habit of WDing back after that dtilt misses. Falcon has decent tricks from the ledge so he might not want to do so much guessing on what he will come up with and try to wait for whatever he's going to do and then punish afterwards.

 

[DuckPimp]

he seemed to kind of throw out moves...

 

[JPOBS]

Total: 64 frames
Hit: 5-7, 20-22
Charge frame: 3
IASA: 62

Jab and hits on frame 4 and only lasts 27 frames. IASA is frame 26.

hits on frame 5? thats ****.

I'm going to toying around a lot with downsmash in the near future. seems useful in some very specific situations.

 

[Jun.]

he seemed to kind of throw out moves...

That's exactly what I was about to say

There are so many times when the falcon was at low percentage but he'd still upthrow and utilt anyway which of coursed whiffed like 3 times in a row.

There were lot of edgeguards that were attempted down-airs nowhere close to the falcon. Regardless of how boring it might be, Marth should just stand and forward smash / tilt if you wanna win.

Most of falcon's successful approaches were also grabs and hits off of spammed Marth aerials which is a huge no-no vs fast characters like fox/falcon/dittos.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Is there a good way to practice power shielding if you only have the computer to practice against? Or would it be better to operate 2 controllers and do the projectile with one and shield with the other? I thought I was getting this powershielding thing down because I can do it almost everytime against a computer falco but I played an actual person and couldn't even powershield once. What's the magic?

 

[MT_]

I practiced against a lvl 9 Falco on FD but it only really teaches you to push the shield button down fast enough imo. Against an actual player, it's really different because you actually have to read/expect the laser to get into the right mindset to powershield it, because of course the player isn't going to follow the same easy and predictable patterns as a computer.

In other words, you can't really practice powershielding alone any better than you've already been doing. The main difference that you may not have noticed in playing vs an actual person is that the laser isn't as obvious, and thus you'll have to also read/predict the laser. You'll also have to find out when powershielding is actually useful, because a lot of times it doesn't get you much.

Rage at when you powershield the laser but Falco jumps over it during his approach anyways.

 

[linkoninja]

Let's say your opponent is UNDER the stage trying to get back
most upb's have large enough hitboxes that it would collide with Marth's counter-hitboxes right?
So why don't Marth's use Counter more often to edge-guard ESPECIALLY against Spacies who are stuck underneath the stage?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

because counter doesnt hit below the stage

 

[mers]

Marth's counter on spacies' recoveries can generally only be guaranteed on Battlefield, because they can't ride the wall to sweetspot. However, a lot of Fox/Falco players really suck at doing this, so it's probably worth trying to see if they can, because the reward is huge (essentially guaranteed stock) if you hit it.

True, it can be teched, but it's ****ing weird and super difficult to do. I've also seen Fox/Falco go high enough from it to side-B back to the ledge, but usually that doesn't happen.

 

[MasterShake]

Spacies can go low enough to abuse what Sveet said.

 

[Strong Badam]

I just react to their angle. If they're going low enough I edgehog, if not I counter.

 

[JPOBS]

grab ledge->dair is for the men

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Someone should learn how to use dancing blade as an edgeguard. Use #3 down for sweetspots, #3 forward for non-sweetspots and #4 forward for straight up/if u miss



Edit- Its legit* unesapable



* not actually legit

 

[phi1ny3]

So far I'm really liking stuff like ledge hop -> rising nair onto the stage and FF offstage -> DJ rising nair back onstage as edge guards, they take up a lot of space and still allow you to not commit like with fsmash/SB.

I'm still working on other cool edgeguards like WD/WL -> offstage bair (ignoring the ledgegrab basically) and ledge hop bair

I need help with the Peach MU now, I don't know the best option for dealing with/punishing dsmash (of course good spacing probably helps), and I don't really know how to get correct combos on her since she seems to nair everything lol. I like the whole SideB poke at higher percents, seems really useful.

Oh yeah, and turnips are weird in this game, coming from Brawl (I've sort of converted to Melee because it facilitates being aggro better than Brawl obv.), so used to Brawl ones that you can glidetoss with, and they don't last forever haha.

 

[MasterShake]

Hey what situations do you use rising nair onstage in? I've experimented with it a bunch and had like no success with it whatsoever.

 

[phi1ny3]

Usually C. Falcon/Ganondorf (like either when your invincibility is still there or juuuust after their grab hitbox is out since they can't grab you while you're hogging and they're about to land), and sometimes v. people who I think are going to aim for the ledge to recover.

I think there's probably more effective ways to edgeguard, but I like it since it either kills at higher percents, or that hitbox in nair sends them back offstage. Obv. not so effective v. Peach/Jigglypuff lol

 

[linkoninja]

How do you guys edgeguard characters with tricky recoveries (Shiek, Peach, Samus) when they aren't close enough to punish their lags for landing on the stage. meaning how do you edge guard them when they're at the ledge or able to grab it. I try D-Tilting Peach but they always sweet spot the ledge D: Forward Tilt has worked out for me a couple times. When in the air I try B-Airing or getting a quick F-Air but Samus and Peach tend to live for a while

 

[_eternal]

How many frames is the window for pivot smashes? I've been practising them and I'm barely getting them out 1/4 of the time.

 

[Bing]

its like... 54 frames or something? regular f-smash is 49 so I just added a few frames XD

Also I ment to tell you this earlier, I've played your Marth and I need to give you this tip; less f-smash, you tend to just throw them out there, and I found they became very predictable very fast, and I was able to punish them pretty well, use more fairs over f-smash, I just got over this issue myself(not completely over it, I do it when I enter panic mode)

 

[Wenbobular]

its like... 54 frames or something? regular f-smash is 49 so I just added a few frames XD

How scientific of you ¬.¬

I believe there is only one frame where you can pivot something, which is a little less intimidating than it sounds because you always know when that frame occurs

Some reason I find pivot jumping way easier with some characters than others but maybe that's a little different

 

[Bing]

How scientific of you ¬.¬

I believe there is only one frame where you can pivot something, which is a little less intimidating than it sounds because you always know when that frame occurs

Some reason I find pivot jumping way easier with some characters than others but maybe that's a little different

I didnt think it would be anymore then a frame or 2, so I added 5 for the longshot, I know, very scientific.

Also, I agree with the pivot jumping statement.


Also _Eternal, I also wanted to tell you to work on your ledge guards, you tend to just stand and f-smash XD. Try d-tilts, grabbing the ledge, jumping out to bair, or even reverse Up-B's(Which are mad sexy)

 

[Wenbobular]

Well he was asking for how big the window was, so saying 50+ frames doesn't make much sense in ... any context really haha

 

[_eternal]

Cool. One frame is still kinda intimidating lol... ah well, I figure I'll get more consistent with it eventually.

Thanks for the suggestions, Bing. I actually can't remember when we played but those definitely sound like standard Marth mistakes I've been making. I think I've gotten over the fsmash dependence but I'm still bad at offstage edgeguards against anyone other than spacies (and I still mess those up sometimes).

 

[phi1ny3]

How do you guys edgeguard characters with tricky recoveries (Shiek, Peach, Samus) when they aren't close enough to punish their lags for landing on the stage. meaning how do you edge guard them when they're at the ledge or able to grab it. I try D-Tilting Peach but they always sweet spot the ledge D: Forward Tilt has worked out for me a couple times. When in the air I try B-Airing or getting a quick F-Air but Samus and Peach tend to live for a while

never mind, didn't fully read the question. Samus from what I've seen, if you're trying to aggressively edgeguard her, looking for a gimp (tacking on some damage seems to be ok though), you're not doing it right. Especially on FD, from the matches I've seen, it's probably best to pressure her to recover lower, and if you make her grapple, you can usually fsmash/SB her as she pops up (timing's really tight though).


Now for a question of my own. From what I remember, I noticed this from a particular marth I watched a long time ago (I don't remember the name, but he was pretty decent), anyways, I found myself having difficulty setting up for kills earlier on Peach, and then I saw this guy's use of JC weak usmash, and it seemed to set them up for a tipper fsmash a lot more. I'm wondering if it's a good idea to throw in every so often, but I'm sure it's not super reliable b/c of DI or something like that.

I think it's rare that you'll gimp either of the latter if they're good, but you can still dish out some damage, and still keep leverage by edgeguarding them intelligently. Peach's upB has a lot of priority and seems to be really hard to stop from grabbing the ledge, I'm having trouble dealing with it too lol . I'm thinking of doing something like WD backwards -> reverse fair or sideB or something as a mixup, I don't think those are really effective though.

 

[Niko45]

Sheik:

Get her off stage immediately. Once she's off, take the ledge if you can (if she's jump back fairing then you need to just attack that with probably a tipper or something). If she is up Bing right on top of you then you need to time your ledge stand as late as possible so that you are still occupying the ledge during the possible time where she could grab it if she decides to go for it. Once you stand up you can either weak fsmash her or regrab her and retoss her off or if she up B'd far into the stage you can go for a regrab or a quick shffl dair into fsmash (hopefully tipper) in the other direction.

If she was up Bing from a little further away you need to roll up because ledgestand is too fast and she can get the ledge from you. Punish as well as you can. If you ever mess up or realize that you can't directly punish her recovery because you rolled up too late or whatever immediately switch gears and look for her to roll or do something to try to escape as she is cornered and knows she has frame advantage if you were to try to directly punish.

Mix in stuff like dropping down with a ledge bair or float out at her and threaten her early as she tries to get back to try to force her to up B earlier which will be easier for you to punish (and possibly punish harder by not letting her get a jump back, etc).

Basically you want to fight sheik like this as much as possible and don't overly concern yourself with the fact that it's an edgeguard as much as you are getting free damage and total control and just try to maintain and she will die eventually.

Peach:

Keep track of her float and double jump. When she has these at her disposal you kinda have to give her a bit more respect as she comes back because she can be really tricky to hit or potentially hit you if you're not careful and if you over commit she will get down on stage while you're busy whiffing in the air and suddenly she's in total control and you're in trouble. This is not to say you can't challenge her at all if you feel like she is asleep at the wheel but you just need to be aware of these things and more so I should say if she has lost or wasted those options you should get much more aggressive (or deduct that she is desperate and wait for an incredibly likely air dodge). You should be able to space a down tilt on her low up B(delay it slightly as it's easier to hit her right as the umbrella actually opens instead of trying to challenge the very beginning of her up B). I'm not entirely sure if she can truly sweet spot but I don't think she can.

If she is floating with umbrella towards the stage and it's unclear what she will go for, ledge or stage, jab is really good for covering her floating in above ledge and then you can turn into a quick steal of the ledge once she is forced to go low. Stealing the ledge at the last second is also just great in general because in this scenario peach really wants the ledge most of the time...

Samus:

Be patient. Incredibly patient. Half the openings Samus gets in this game are off people being impatient during HER recovery. Don't be afraid to swat her if she bomb jumps too close to you (also simply swatting bombs can be very effective as she can no longer use that for her bomb jump - play around with that because in different recovery scenarios for her this can be devastating).

You should try to swat her if you can because basically if she has the grapple and is competent at sweetspotting there is nothing you can do except maintain control as she tries to get off the ledge.

There is also the gimmicky trick where you just sit on the ledge and the grapple hits you and you fall facing samus and then reverse up B her but...don't bank on that.

Again, like Peach, be very aware of the options she has left in general because once she's lost the grapple honestly she can be edgehogged a lot of the time. In general if she loses her grapple or DJ what she is going/needs to do is much more linear. Just respect DJ fair dsmash when she's in range to do so.

Basically with all three of them you want to get good with jumping out at them as they come back and flirting with swatting them with a bair or fair or whatever, not necessarily always doing it, but potentially baiting a more punishable recovery and being extremely patient in all instances. Don't get frustrated if they live forever, just maintain control above all else and build damage and eventually they will die. Sometimes they will get back and start **** stocking you at 200%, but don't QQ, that's just melee sometimes.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Nope. Peach can't truly sweetspot the ledge with her upB. Have at it.

 

[MasterShake]

That's very true about Samus. If you just jump out there then they'll lose valuable horizontal recovery because they'll try to weave out of your possible attack instead of going towards the stage. Basically Sami are little *****es until they get below the stage.

 

[stelzig]

When I realised that aiming for the bombs is much easier than aiming for samus (won't fly back or fastfall or whatever), it improved my edgeguarding on her by alot. Samus can't really drop bombs very close to the stage because you can just react to them being dropped and hit them - pretty much for as long as you can make it back to the stage after your Bair/Fair.
I think I read someone once saying that whenever you get hit by samus' grapple you always get that tipper UpB on her for it, and it's so true so don't even be afraid of getting hit by that during your off-stage edgeguard, lol.

(My teammate is a samus, so i've played against samus a fair amount )

 

[Strong Badam]

Def aim for the bombs when she's bomb jumping. She loses more height from than when you hit her in general esp if you tipper fair.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

When I realised that aiming for the bombs is much easier than aiming for samus (won't fly back or fastfall or whatever), it improved my edgeguarding on her by alot. Samus can't really drop bombs very close to the stage because you can just react to them being dropped and hit them - pretty much for as long as you can make it back to the stage after your Bair/Fair.
I think I read someone once saying that whenever you get hit by samus' grapple you always get that tipper UpB on her for it, and it's so true so don't even be afraid of getting hit by that during your off-stage edgeguard, lol.

(My teammate is a samus, so i've played against samus a fair amount )

You'll only get the reverse dolphin if Samus actually drops down with the grapple. If she hits A right away you're screwed.

 

[Beat!]

So what are good stages vs DK? I played Nedech in tournament for the second time last weekend, and I realized that I didn't really know where to take him. I ended up CPing, like, YS and BF, which felt okay, but idk. Looking back, I'm wondering if FoD would've been a good idea. What do you guys think?

Also, if any of you have any matchup advice against DK I'd appreciate it. I figured out some things after playing a lot of friendlies with him (Nedech), but I still feel that I'm not doing as well as I could.

 

[Juno McGrath]

Dk is easy once you realize he has half the range you do. I really like wave dash dtilt and ftilt in that MU

Also f throw and dthrow tech chasing. As far as stage selection goes I really like fod and battlefield the most

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

as marth, you want to zone out dk a ton by using non committed aerials like late tippered fairs on dk's shield, or fairing right outside of dk's punish range. fair is a staple move of yours in this matchup, abuse its priority and speed a ton.

if dk is trying to do stuff like backair or approach you with any type of aerial move, feel free to dashdance grab because dk has a lot of lag after his aerial moves, and you're pretty much guaranteed a grab every single time dk misses. (be careful to watch out for intentionally missed backairs to bait grabs, as dk can do a retreating backair or run away and grab you after you come in)

In this matchup, i dont like dthrow tech chasing too much because dk's weight causes marth to throw him very slowly. i prefer fthrow tech chasing, as theyre much easier to punish off of.

when dk is recovering from the stage:

if he's coming in low: edgehog him or dtilt him if you're confident in your timing. Also if he is hugging the stage while recovering low, don't be too close when you dtilt or fsmash him... cus when dk techs and instantly uses his upB right afterwards, it will hit you and it will guarantee that he can get back onto the stage safely (depends on what % you are when his upb hits you)

if he's coming in high: you can either wait for him to land and continue abusing fthrow tech chase tactics, but more than likely you just want to hit him off stage and keep making him recover and rack up damage

don't forget to tipper everything and space everything, because dk can crouchcancel grab every single move that marth has that isnt a smash attack

also if you are having trouble killing dk, then work on your edgeguarding as that will be your main killing tactic. DK can survive to ridiculous percentages vs marth with good di.

heres a video reference if you have trouble taking any of this in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYtFwB7EAlA

*note* the matchup can be played way more gay than i did in this particular match

 

[BairJew]

Samus. Well spaced Ftilts. which clank with everything and if they don't they come out faster than any move you have. If you try to stay back, you get spammed with missiles. What, and how do you fix this giant complete land-slide of a problem against this god forsaken character.

 

[stelzig]

You'll only get the reverse dolphin if Samus actually drops down with the grapple. If she hits A right away you're screwed.

I can't say you're wrong on wether i'll get it or not, but it's not like i'm getting hit at a sweetspot position so i'm not going to get edgehogged.

 

[Beat!]

Thanks for the advice guys.

 

[linkoninja]

Hey guys I'm having trouble playing Marth in teams now >.>. I've noticed that the craziness of teams makes me more reckless, I seem to just throw out moves and do stupid things (like miss edge-guards when I shouldn't be) my main problem though is getting hit. When my partner is offstage I don't know how to deal with the 2 vs 1 a lot of the times and I find myself losing stocks very very early (especially against Fox). Any tips?

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Samus. Well spaced Ftilts. which clank with everything and if they don't they come out faster than any move you have. If you try to stay back, you get spammed with missiles. What, and how do you fix this giant complete land-slide of a problem against this god forsaken character.

Jab and dash attack cancel out every projectile Samus has, even a full charge shot. If you find yourself at a distance getting spammed, just jab > wd or dash attack your way to better spacing so you can punish that laggy ****. Who knows, you can probably do the same thing with fair.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

So what are good stages vs DK?

I counterpick Stadium and try to strike to FD. Ban Dreamland.