mers
Smash Ace
Honestly, the best thing you can do is keep playing extra safe and hope that a random aerial puts them in a position to edgeguard. Marth doesn't have spammable killmoves like most characters, so you have to stay as safe as possible.
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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy
- Thread starter Cactuar
- Start date
Winston
Smash Master
At those percents people will often play around getting hit more and shield a lot more. If you notice that they are, just look to land more grabs. If you are even vaguely near the edge with your back to it a quick dthrow will often send them offstage. A quick bthrow will combo into fsmash if they miss the DI on it, giving you a 50/50 mixup if they are good at reacting and DIing. Fthrow near the edge facing forwards works too of course.
But yeah, keep playing safe. Try using dtilt too, as that's fairly safe and will often knock them offstage at those super high percents.
But yeah, keep playing safe. Try using dtilt too, as that's fairly safe and will often knock them offstage at those super high percents.
l0telephone0l
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2007
- Messages
- 43
Yeah, we're both pretty old school players (since 2005!) so our reactions tend to be pretty quick. He gets out of tumbles mad quick though so bthrow to ftilt or fsmash rarely works at high percents. This if I do manage to grab with all of those **** lasers. I tend to play very aggressively and even more so when he's at higher percents and I guess I do take a lot of unnecessary damage. I'll try dtilting more and just waiting, but lasers can really get on your nerves.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Powershielding, moving around platforms, and being comfortable with doing stuff OoS makes dealing with lasers child's play.
Winston
Smash Master
bthrow fsmash combos doesn't it? Getting out of tumble shouldn't be an issue right?
If he's DIing away from the bthrow dthrow will send him offstage if you're near-ish to the edge, and fthrow might combo into stuff since he isn't DIing away from that.
If he's DIing away from the bthrow dthrow will send him offstage if you're near-ish to the edge, and fthrow might combo into stuff since he isn't DIing away from that.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
fthrow fsmash works at the same percents bthrow fsmash combos. Its a high % mixup thats very useful.
In general, I think bthrow is a little underused. Putting people on platforms above Marth is really good.
I'm trying to use it more actually
I'm just trying to find a use for the DI in to you. It might help for situations where people try avoid the platform and think you're gonna upthrow.
Marth is soooo silly omg LOL
Dart!
Smash Master
yeah, i've noticed that people who don't utilize marth's whole moveset don't realize his potential.
Downsmash and Upsmash both **** when tippered, mango can vouch
Backthrow platform trap? too good?
marth's grab game is so good, it's not gay and automatic like sheiks but its awesome.
Downsmash and Upsmash both **** when tippered, mango can vouch
Backthrow platform trap? too good?
marth's grab game is so good, it's not gay and automatic like sheiks but its awesome.
Niko45
Smash Master
I actually used down smash on purpose in tournament this past weekend, I surprised myself. I think it has some decent use for high % tech chasing.
I feel like Marth's dair has a ton of potential still. I mean, there really isn't much reason why Marth can't tech chase with dair the way CF tech chases with dair. It also has misleadingly good range in front of Marth.
Shield breaker's another one. Idk, feels like there's a lot of room for Marth to improve honestly.
I feel like Marth's dair has a ton of potential still. I mean, there really isn't much reason why Marth can't tech chase with dair the way CF tech chases with dair. It also has misleadingly good range in front of Marth.
Shield breaker's another one. Idk, feels like there's a lot of room for Marth to improve honestly.
Fortress | Sveet
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marth can't run like falcon can. if you're talking about in place/behind stuff, lots of marths already do that 
Winston
Smash Master
A couple of reasons I can think of why it's not nearly as good:
You can do the asdi down so that it bounces you on the ground instead of up in the air. It works to a pretty high percent (I don't know what it is, but I feel like it's at least past 50% for most characters). CF's forces them into the air no matter what at a much lower percent.
when CF gets a stomp he either gets a guaranteed kill if it's at the right percent/stage position or a very high chance of ****. When marth gets the dair its not necessarily any better than just having grabbed them again.
At some highish percents the tipper hit probably sets up for some finisher guaranteed, but saying it's like CF's stomp techchase is pretty ridiculous imo. Does anyone know percents where tipper dair will guarantee a strong finisher?
the stomp techchase is also really good in some situations because he can do it super low to the ground and cover other tech options if he has a little bit of assistance (i.e. the edge of the stage limiting techrolls). I think Marth's is too laggy to do this with since you can't do the dair late if you want the tipper hit, right? And if you don't get the tipper hit the cc/ground asdi works to an even higher percent. Sometimes you get straight up cc punished for doing it.
The CF-ish thing Marth can do with it is like space a sh in front of their tech like you're trying to hit their tech in place or something and DI backwards a bit and dair their techroll back. that's pretty cool I guess.
About downsmash, its pretty **** and I feel like marth players should eventually figure out the spacing for the tipper/some reliable traps for it, such as catching their techroll back with the backwards tipper hit. It's easily the strongest finisher Marth has. Sometimes I feel like you can cc dsmash some spaced moves that you can't cc grab, but this could just be me being a Luigi player too used to spamming cc dsmash.
About shield breaker, the main uses I know of that are useful are finishing aerial combos where reverse up b/spike/inside fair won't hit, and jumping out to edgeguard firefox/firebird charges in weird situations that you can't get there to reverse up b in time and don't want to risk doing a tipped fair instead of an inside one. Aggressive shield breaker edgeguards are pretty good vs falcon too imo but you can edgeguard falcon in any way you want as long as you're precise, so that's whatever.
Besides those and edgeguarding I'm not sure how the move could have a lot of applications since it's not particularly strong or fast, and it's laggier than Marth's other options in almost any situation. (and it's my favorite marth move kind of so I use it whenever possible.)
You can do the asdi down so that it bounces you on the ground instead of up in the air. It works to a pretty high percent (I don't know what it is, but I feel like it's at least past 50% for most characters). CF's forces them into the air no matter what at a much lower percent.
when CF gets a stomp he either gets a guaranteed kill if it's at the right percent/stage position or a very high chance of ****. When marth gets the dair its not necessarily any better than just having grabbed them again.
At some highish percents the tipper hit probably sets up for some finisher guaranteed, but saying it's like CF's stomp techchase is pretty ridiculous imo. Does anyone know percents where tipper dair will guarantee a strong finisher?
the stomp techchase is also really good in some situations because he can do it super low to the ground and cover other tech options if he has a little bit of assistance (i.e. the edge of the stage limiting techrolls). I think Marth's is too laggy to do this with since you can't do the dair late if you want the tipper hit, right? And if you don't get the tipper hit the cc/ground asdi works to an even higher percent. Sometimes you get straight up cc punished for doing it.
The CF-ish thing Marth can do with it is like space a sh in front of their tech like you're trying to hit their tech in place or something and DI backwards a bit and dair their techroll back. that's pretty cool I guess.
About downsmash, its pretty **** and I feel like marth players should eventually figure out the spacing for the tipper/some reliable traps for it, such as catching their techroll back with the backwards tipper hit. It's easily the strongest finisher Marth has. Sometimes I feel like you can cc dsmash some spaced moves that you can't cc grab, but this could just be me being a Luigi player too used to spamming cc dsmash.
About shield breaker, the main uses I know of that are useful are finishing aerial combos where reverse up b/spike/inside fair won't hit, and jumping out to edgeguard firefox/firebird charges in weird situations that you can't get there to reverse up b in time and don't want to risk doing a tipped fair instead of an inside one. Aggressive shield breaker edgeguards are pretty good vs falcon too imo but you can edgeguard falcon in any way you want as long as you're precise, so that's whatever.
Besides those and edgeguarding I'm not sure how the move could have a lot of applications since it's not particularly strong or fast, and it's laggier than Marth's other options in almost any situation. (and it's my favorite marth move kind of so I use it whenever possible.)
Niko45
Smash Master
Well like it could just be me sandbagging but Marth runs pretty well and I find myself dash dance dair tech chasing all the time. Probably isn't optimal but it's certainly possible. Dair combos into up tilt at low % which is pretty good obviously, and it has a pretty decent window where you can measure a tipper on whatever you're dairing. More optimal on fast fallers obviously. It's also cool if say someone is standing facing you underneath the inner edge of a platform and you've got your back to the edge, you can waveland across the platform and then fast fall down behind them hitting with the back part of the dair. This oddly shield stabs a decent amount and it's still safe even on shield. You can also do really epic combos off platform tech chases with dair but again I'm not really sure where or if it's the best move choice marth can do.
Definitely going to experiment with CC dsmash. Could probably hit things like spaced falcon bair.
Shield breaker has considerably more range low and out in front of Marth than fair does. It fools people a lot who try to just sneak under fair with dash attacks or whatever. I also feel like short hop shield breaker has some type of niche use in edgeguard spacies side B where you're too close to the ledge to dash and crouch but wavedash dtitl/jab will be too laggy. Shield breaker is also one of Marth's longest lasting hitboxes.
Definitely going to experiment with CC dsmash. Could probably hit things like spaced falcon bair.
Shield breaker has considerably more range low and out in front of Marth than fair does. It fools people a lot who try to just sneak under fair with dash attacks or whatever. I also feel like short hop shield breaker has some type of niche use in edgeguard spacies side B where you're too close to the ledge to dash and crouch but wavedash dtitl/jab will be too laggy. Shield breaker is also one of Marth's longest lasting hitboxes.
Winston
Smash Master
Well, dair comboing into utilt at low percent is di dependent right? Also at those percents im pretty sure they can just hold down and not get comboed.
dair def has its uses but i think its mostly niche/tricky uses like the examples you gave and not a general CF stomp techchase type thing. the reward just isnt nearly as high.
i use sh shield breaker to position myself edgeguard spacies side b as one of my standard options if they aren't shortening-happy. Its lag makes it pretty bad vs shortening.
And yeah the range low and in front makes me like it for offstage edgeguarding. using it onstage just seems like a huge gamble, but I do tend to throw it out to try and trick them when defending myself in the air/recovering.
dair def has its uses but i think its mostly niche/tricky uses like the examples you gave and not a general CF stomp techchase type thing. the reward just isnt nearly as high.
i use sh shield breaker to position myself edgeguard spacies side b as one of my standard options if they aren't shortening-happy. Its lag makes it pretty bad vs shortening.
And yeah the range low and in front makes me like it for offstage edgeguarding. using it onstage just seems like a huge gamble, but I do tend to throw it out to try and trick them when defending myself in the air/recovering.
Niko45
Smash Master
I actually don't find it that laggy if you time it to hit with the very end of the hitbox, which stays out decently close to the end of the lag. Kinda like how if you're going to use counter you should do it so that the move you're anticipating hitting you hits you near the end of the counter so that if you're wrong, you minimize how much you'll actually be vulnerable.
Edit: Forgot to mention originally I think Marth's bair is also a bit underutilized. It leads to some funky combos and has pretty deceptive range. I don't feel like many Marths have truly "mastered" its spacing.
Edit: Forgot to mention originally I think Marth's bair is also a bit underutilized. It leads to some funky combos and has pretty deceptive range. I don't feel like many Marths have truly "mastered" its spacing.
Winston
Smash Master
How the heck are you grounded dairing puffs? lol
UltimateHaxor123
Smash Apprentice
sry if its already been asked (i was too lazy to search through 300pages lol) but i heard that marths can't sweetspot against other marths because his tipper goes a little below the stage. is this true?
Fortress | Sveet
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pretty much true. You can sweetspot low and away and sometimes dodge dtilt/fsmash that doesn't cover the full horizontal distance of marth's edge grab range. but yes, its impossible to actually go low enough so that the other marth doesn't have a way to hit you.
haha i guess they suck
Na against puff it doesnt happen that often, that's true, but it still feels good when it happens.
Niko45
Smash Master
Yea I also hit puff with dair alot for some reason, probably cause they duck so much. I have no idea how to measure the skill of the puffs I play tho.
otg
Smash Master
My puff's ok, but it aint no Hbox.
Winston
Smash Master
Oh that makes sense I guess, my bad.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Puff matchup is dumb. It's mostly just retreating aerials, short hopped of course, since you have to stay close to the ground in neutral (retreating nair is pretty good; fair is ok but it has to be spaced really well), d-tilt to keep her honest on the ground, f-tilt is oddly good at certain ranges (where if she chooses to jump forward she gets tipped). You can only really grab her if you predict she'll shield lol.
F-smash is only really viable if you get a read. Like wd out of shield to fsmash can be somewhat good if you use it in moderation.
F-smash is only really viable if you get a read. Like wd out of shield to fsmash can be somewhat good if you use it in moderation.
Marth vs Jigglypuff
First off this is going to be my biggest post on smashboards ever so I hope everyone enjoys!
I've been working on this matchup for awhile now trying to find ways Marth has around this character played on a high level. I have figured out that the matchup can basically be broken down into three different elements. I will go into details on these three key elements of this matchup that will hopefully help you win against this character in a tournament set. If you do not agree with some of the things I say please tell me so and we can discuss what else should be done instead.
Zoning - This is the absolute most important part of this matchup. Whoever spaces better/ is more patient will win. Always always always. Marth can out range jigglypuff very well but due to the current meta game jigglypuff players have figured out many ways around Marth's spacing. One problem most Marth's have is the Wall Of Pain. A common mistake Marth players make is that they jump into the **** on this one. When a jigglypuff is WOPing just out of your range or above you DONT jump AT her plain and simple instead try and get under her and uair or uptilt. One thing that works pretty well is jump about a fsmash and a half length away to get the puff to jump and try and hit you then walk towards them and ftilt it works really well. There are two ways around her wall of pain that I absolutely LOVE to use. #1 is something I just recently figured out that is Marth's uair hitbox actually starts a little above his head and infront of him. This will actually beat out puff's bair if you time it right. However I'm still experimenting with this but so far I've gotten nice results. Always short hop it though you dont ever want to jump high against puff or jump at her unless she's above you. #2 is pivoting a fsmash. If jigglypuff tries to reach out at you with fair or bair, dash away then dash back and fsmash. You will usually catch her on her DI'ing the direction she came from and if your on a small stage and she's at decent percent she'll probably die. This will also make her think twice before she tries approaching you again. Make sure however that she is ALWAYS in the air before you do this though. Otherwise she will most likely shield and fair you or worse *REST* in which case you will have to pray that you tipper her shield. Some other tools that are useful are retreating fair and nair. Also running in and shielding is very essential in this match up I believe. Just make sure you shield before their attack comes out is all I have to say about this. Also make sure you shield a little out of their grab range too. So that if they try and run up and grab you can react to it accordingly. Attacking oos and Wavedashing oos is equally important once you get them to mess up their spacing. If jigglypuff bair or fair's your shield and then falls back to the ground you can wavedash oos and jab or dtilt and even sometimes grab. If the jigglypuff hits your shield with fair or bair and then jumps again you can wavedash oos and uptilt or sh uair. Fair oos and bair oos are always great if you catch your opponent off guard and mess their spacing up with run up shield. Sometimes if your feeling cheeky you can wavedash after the fair or bair into fsmash and get a tipper however I wouldn't rely on this by itself. I THINK I've gone over the fundamentals of zoning with Marth vs Jigglypuff if you have any questions just pm me.
Stage control - This is the second most important part of the matchup. What you basically want to do is try and push jigglypuff to one edge of the stage then when she's there she only has two options retaliate, or go above you. This is EXACTLY what you want. Remember jigglypuff has only six jumps and if she pounds too close to the stage you can punish her with an uair. Make sure you stay grounded and follow her! Try and count the jumps too. If you stay under her regerdless of where she goes you will always be able to hit her. Wait for the pound and knock her back up in the air. Be patient and keep in mind that she will probably try and air dodge away from you eventually. This can lead into grabs which can be VERY helpful. Thats really all their is to go over on stage control its pretty simple but most people forget about it.
Grabs - A TON of people dont know what to do when they get a grab. Well I'll tell ya what some of the options Marth has when he gets a grab. A gimmick I just figured out is that at 0 to 23 % Marth can down throw into turn around dsmash tipper the puff player if at low enough percent will try and attack you with something but if you buffer an uptilt you will hit them out of it. At mid to higher percent you can pivot fsmash if they DI down or away for a bit. HOWEVER you cannot hit them if they full DI away. Remember that if your at the edge of the stage you can wavedash and have the edge of the stage cancel the rest of the movement and you can fsmash and it will hit YAY! After you down throw or forward throw you can wavedash and fsmash tipper most of the time however they can DI away fully and or DI up not get hit by it. If they DI up you can wavedash and uptilt which will hit. Those I think are all the possibilities from grabs.
I hope you guys enjoy this read and yeah.... If you have any questions just ask me through PM or AIM.
First off this is going to be my biggest post on smashboards ever so I hope everyone enjoys!
I've been working on this matchup for awhile now trying to find ways Marth has around this character played on a high level. I have figured out that the matchup can basically be broken down into three different elements. I will go into details on these three key elements of this matchup that will hopefully help you win against this character in a tournament set. If you do not agree with some of the things I say please tell me so and we can discuss what else should be done instead.
Zoning - This is the absolute most important part of this matchup. Whoever spaces better/ is more patient will win. Always always always. Marth can out range jigglypuff very well but due to the current meta game jigglypuff players have figured out many ways around Marth's spacing. One problem most Marth's have is the Wall Of Pain. A common mistake Marth players make is that they jump into the **** on this one. When a jigglypuff is WOPing just out of your range or above you DONT jump AT her plain and simple instead try and get under her and uair or uptilt. One thing that works pretty well is jump about a fsmash and a half length away to get the puff to jump and try and hit you then walk towards them and ftilt it works really well. There are two ways around her wall of pain that I absolutely LOVE to use. #1 is something I just recently figured out that is Marth's uair hitbox actually starts a little above his head and infront of him. This will actually beat out puff's bair if you time it right. However I'm still experimenting with this but so far I've gotten nice results. Always short hop it though you dont ever want to jump high against puff or jump at her unless she's above you. #2 is pivoting a fsmash. If jigglypuff tries to reach out at you with fair or bair, dash away then dash back and fsmash. You will usually catch her on her DI'ing the direction she came from and if your on a small stage and she's at decent percent she'll probably die. This will also make her think twice before she tries approaching you again. Make sure however that she is ALWAYS in the air before you do this though. Otherwise she will most likely shield and fair you or worse *REST* in which case you will have to pray that you tipper her shield. Some other tools that are useful are retreating fair and nair. Also running in and shielding is very essential in this match up I believe. Just make sure you shield before their attack comes out is all I have to say about this. Also make sure you shield a little out of their grab range too. So that if they try and run up and grab you can react to it accordingly. Attacking oos and Wavedashing oos is equally important once you get them to mess up their spacing. If jigglypuff bair or fair's your shield and then falls back to the ground you can wavedash oos and jab or dtilt and even sometimes grab. If the jigglypuff hits your shield with fair or bair and then jumps again you can wavedash oos and uptilt or sh uair. Fair oos and bair oos are always great if you catch your opponent off guard and mess their spacing up with run up shield. Sometimes if your feeling cheeky you can wavedash after the fair or bair into fsmash and get a tipper however I wouldn't rely on this by itself. I THINK I've gone over the fundamentals of zoning with Marth vs Jigglypuff if you have any questions just pm me.
Stage control - This is the second most important part of the matchup. What you basically want to do is try and push jigglypuff to one edge of the stage then when she's there she only has two options retaliate, or go above you. This is EXACTLY what you want. Remember jigglypuff has only six jumps and if she pounds too close to the stage you can punish her with an uair. Make sure you stay grounded and follow her! Try and count the jumps too. If you stay under her regerdless of where she goes you will always be able to hit her. Wait for the pound and knock her back up in the air. Be patient and keep in mind that she will probably try and air dodge away from you eventually. This can lead into grabs which can be VERY helpful. Thats really all their is to go over on stage control its pretty simple but most people forget about it.
Grabs - A TON of people dont know what to do when they get a grab. Well I'll tell ya what some of the options Marth has when he gets a grab. A gimmick I just figured out is that at 0 to 23 % Marth can down throw into turn around dsmash tipper the puff player if at low enough percent will try and attack you with something but if you buffer an uptilt you will hit them out of it. At mid to higher percent you can pivot fsmash if they DI down or away for a bit. HOWEVER you cannot hit them if they full DI away. Remember that if your at the edge of the stage you can wavedash and have the edge of the stage cancel the rest of the movement and you can fsmash and it will hit YAY! After you down throw or forward throw you can wavedash and fsmash tipper most of the time however they can DI away fully and or DI up not get hit by it. If they DI up you can wavedash and uptilt which will hit. Those I think are all the possibilities from grabs.
I hope you guys enjoy this read and yeah.... If you have any questions just ask me through PM or AIM.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Yeah getting under Puff is usually good with like every character.
It's sort of how you counter Puff's FJ Bair fade away Bair with Sheik, where you dash --> duck the first one and then like Nair or whatever before she can do the next one. Only Marth has a pretty Uair that's attached to a sword so you can do that instead of Nair and it's better.
It's sort of how you counter Puff's FJ Bair fade away Bair with Sheik, where you dash --> duck the first one and then like Nair or whatever before she can do the next one. Only Marth has a pretty Uair that's attached to a sword so you can do that instead of Nair and it's better.
Anomic_Punk
Smash Champion
Because one-word answers are great:
Patience
Is what wins the Marth v. Puff matchup.
Patience
Is what wins the Marth v. Puff matchup.
Use more sword is usually my answer...
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
That's the solution to everything though.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
Great post ARC. Learned a lot. Didn't know about the uair or turnaround dsmash thing. Rep +1.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Hey Cactuar, could you go into detail about your decision making process when you are edge guarding someone? As in, what do you look for, and what triggers you to a particular edge guard in a match. I understand that this is a very broad and somewhat vague question, but the more detailed of a response you give the bettar!
:D I'm glad it at least helped some people. Cactuar your right buuuut I wanted to go into a little more detail for the people that dont know about some of these things/ orrrrrr it dosent come second nature to them. I might do some more if its actually helping people learn.
My style is very reaction heavy. Generally, I don't go for off stage edgeguarding because I feel very comfortable keeping people from getting on stage from holding the ledge.
So basically, after I hit them off stage, I just get in position on stage. As they come up with their double jump or upb to actually reach the edge, depending on the character, I'll dtilt or fsmash, but usually dtilt. If they get hit, followup and they lose the stock. If they grab the ledge, back up to a little more than tipper distance, but close enough to tip them if they do a normal standup onto the edge. If they jump, just fair them. If they roll, easy reaction. If the player shows a consistent wavedash onto stage while keeping invuln, react by dashing back and resetting to neutral, but staying close enough to maintain advantage while in the middle of the stage, pushing them back out and off. If its Falco, watch for double laser from the edge. If its Falcon/Ganon, watch for doublejump waveland off double jump tricksies. Basically, know your opponent's character's options other than the standard 4 get ups and how to either punish them for it or at least regain advantageous position. Any other questions?
Fortress | Sveet
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that was a really well worded post cactuar
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,346
I have noticed a few times that by sitting at fsmash tipper distance from the ledge, I could wait for someone to do something on the ledge like a get-up or attack or roll. Since anything over 100% takes longer to perform, it seems I could react purely to waiting for this animation and fsmash them out of this. Does this work for every character using those options above 100%? I was told it does not work on fox and falco because they have invicibility during that lengthed part of climbing up over the ledge.
Fortress | Sveet
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i dont use fsmash because its much slower than dtilt so its much harder to use it on a standing option with reaction. but to each his own.
Niko45
Smash Master
I definitely need to stop trying to time fairs on people coming up from the ledge.
Hahaha, you have seen the light. Behold the power of Cactus.
Jun.
Smash Lord
Kinda random but through my experience Marth gains a lot of advantages from purely standing rather than spazzing out trying to read techs. Especially after a dthrow.
JesusFreak
Smash Hero
HOLY ****!! Is that Mookie Rah?! I didn't know you were still alive, dude!!!