Brawlplusery Codeset / Competitive Play Discussion

[Sukai]

Modding Phantasm wouldn't balance his laser camping, it would take away one of many options he has while camping.

 

[Shell]

Also, a slower projectile could be better in some ways, as it'd be easier for Falco to follow it and synchronize his attacks with the impact of the projectile, generating a large hitlag advantage.

Plus a wall of lazorz, regardless of how fast they travel, will have the same density of lazorz. But I think metaXzero is right that they can't be changed anyways.

@knuxrouge, it wouldn't stop camping, but it would help limit his escape options once you do approach him, and the possibility of PS reflect could help get you that far.

Really, even now he's arguably not top 10. If the two things I mentioned were fully implemented in the official set and worked, then he'd be looking at mid. He's just not as huge of a threat as I think you're making him out to be. I saw some Falco at BtL, but he wasn't the most played character by far.

 

[VietGeek]

Does he have enough time to catch the opponent at the end of their roll? Unless TL's dsmash was sped up, I don't think so. I'll test it out sometime.

He does not have enough time to tech chase. IIRC the first hit was sped up to allow for better connection.

HOWEVER, on further inspection that seems to be removed from 4.1B official and 4.2 nightlys, so IDK (also can't find it in Frame Speed Mod, so dsmash's speed might be completely unaltered). <_<

although by the time you finish teching, toon link could just hit you again. :<

Unless you have a slow tech like Falcon, you can tech in place and grab him before he can do anything.

 

[Sukai]

Whoa now Shell, I never said Falco was broken.
My point was that his reflector didn't necessarily add depth to him, but added to his compendium of options.

 

[ph00tbag]

I consider Thunderhorse a really solid Falco+ player. How many times did he spam the reflector? Once.

Maybe he would have won if he had used it more at proper spacing and at proper percents. He used it when Popo was at 128%. It's hard to combo off of any move at that percent, so don't use that instance as your example. Now for an observation that makes sense. Evidently Thunderhorse is able to hold his own against ChuDat without having to use his shine offensively, which means he was able to successfully approach using lasers and get within utilt/grab/jab/usmash/nair/dair range. Obviously, Falco is not a particularly bad character, and he has a load of options once he gets in range for them. So why was the shine buff necessary?

And like knuxrouge has said, I never said he was broken. I said he got a completely unnecessary buff, because he's pretty good as it is. I don't think that he warranted a buff, even if he wasn't in the top ten. This is because there can only be ten top ten at any point, and if this did put him in the top ten, then there would just be someone else to buff until they were top ten. Buffs should be given to improve truly bad characters.

 

[metaXzero]

As said ph00tbag, Falco's shine doesn't combo. It's follow-ups are just that: follow-ups.

IIRC, the Falco boards just wanted his combo game to not be so simplistic and dull (hence why the shine change didn't change any match-ups). The trade-off was his lasers did less damage and I think less stun (though IMO, I think for it to be a fair trade-off, more has to be done since the lasers are still ery effective).

The shine change has been put in, removed, then put in again. I can't see the Falco boards wanting this taken away again. However, I do see that as long as Falco has his shine trade-off, other boards will ask for trade-offs.

 

[Sukai]

So, they wanted to buff a good character, because they weren't satisfied with the potluck of options he already has.
That is the worst excuse for a buff I've ever heard.
Oh, but it's supposed to compensate for his laser nerf, which was almost unanimously agreed on that it was too broken.
So someone felt the need to compensate a completely necessary nerf with an unnecessary buff.
[sarcasm]Makes sense to me![/sarcasm]
By the way, it was taken away the first time because it had no hitstun.
And what I'm hearing is, the was applied to make him top 10.
That reeks of bias, which should never be applied when deciding chances. Not to mention, the request for those changes took place in the B+ Character discussion, which is against the rules.
Something's not right here.

 

[ph00tbag]

As said ph00tbag, Falco's shine doesn't combo. It's follow-ups are just that: follow-ups.

IIRC, the Falco boards just wanted his combo game to not be so simplistic and dull (hence why the shine change didn't change any match-ups). The trade-off was his lasers did less damage and I think less stun (though IMO, I think for it to be a fair trade-off, more has to be done since the lasers are still ery effective).

The shine change has been put in, removed, then put in again. I can't see the Falco boards wanting this taken away again. However, I do see that as long as Falco has his shine trade-off, other boards will ask for trade-offs.

It doesn't necessarily combo, but I've seen it combo. In fact, the current implementation of it was only put back in because it has hitstun. So it was kinda put back in so you could combo. And don't think the ability to DI out makes it less of a combo move. Otherwise there would be much fewer combos in this game. It's why we distinguish guaranteed combos from DI dependent combos.

It does add another combo option to his already full game. If you watch the Thunderhorse vid, he doesn't just combo with utilt. He has one combo that goes something like dthrow -> bair -> dash attack -> dair -> tech chase. Basically, all this has shown me is that Falco mains aren't trying hard enough. Falco has a plethora of combo moves: jab, dtilt, utilt, dthrow, dair, dash attack, uair, bair, nair, usmash (on some characters)... He doesn't really need another, does he? I mean, that's a similar list to ZSS's list, and no ZSS mains are demanding buffs at all. Hell, there was backlash to the buff on her fsmash, which is far and away more useless than Falco's shine.

How about a compromise? Instead of having an angle of 120, change it back to 20, but keep the current knockback and hitstun. That way it becomes a sort of finisher/safe edgeguarding move.

 

[metaXzero]

Hopefully someone from the Falco boards will come over soon. This comes up alot and I'm not in a position to copy-paste various arguments right now.

ph00tbag. As stands, the Falco boards will reject anything that changes the Shine angle close to it's original state (or close to).

That ZSS example, wasn't it the ZSS mains themselves who didn't who didn't like the F-Smash trade-off (it was a trade-off and not a buff last time I checked).

 

[timothyung]

Isn't that her side b is doing too much damage, so they nerfed it? And they give her f-smash more knockback to make up for it. It's because her side b's damage needs to be nerfed, the fsmash buff is a bonus.

 

[metaXzero]

^I think that was the story (or some of since IDK about Side-B being OPed). The ZSS mains however wouldn't have that.

 

[leafgreen386]

It doesn't necessarily combo, but I've seen it combo. In fact, the current implementation of it was only put back in because it has hitstun. So it was kinda put back in so you could combo. And don't think the ability to DI out makes it less of a combo move. Otherwise there would be much fewer combos in this game. It's why we distinguish guaranteed combos from DI dependent combos.

It does add another combo option to his already full game. If you watch the Thunderhorse vid, he doesn't just combo with utilt. He has one combo that goes something like dthrow -> bair -> dash attack -> dair -> tech chase. Basically, all this has shown me is that Falco mains aren't trying hard enough. Falco has a plethora of combo moves: jab, dtilt, utilt, dthrow, dair, dash attack, uair, bair, nair, usmash (on some characters)... He doesn't really need another, does he? I mean, that's a similar list to ZSS's list, and no ZSS mains are demanding buffs at all. Hell, there was backlash to the buff on her fsmash, which is far and away more useless than Falco's shine.

How about a compromise? Instead of having an angle of 120, change it back to 20, but keep the current knockback and hitstun. That way it becomes a sort of finisher/safe edgeguarding move.

It's not a matter of "compromising" at this point. The falco shine change has been made, and it's done. You really think we can revert that so easily at this point without huge retribution from the falco mains? Falco players accepted a laser nerf for this buff. It's a fairly radical change to a character, and removing it would also be a radical change. There is really no point in trying to argue it anymore, since it's not going to be removed. Period.

If falco needs nerfs, he will be nerfed appropriately, but the shine change has pretty much been finalized. The most you could expect to change about his shine at this point are some small tweaks to it, but never again will you see a major reworking of the move.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

even with the shine buff its not like falco's gonna dominate and **** the entire cast

 

[Sukai]

It was a one percent damage nerf.
Did that honestly require some sort of compensation?

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

It was a one percent damage nerf.
Did that honestly require some sort of compensation?

it makes the game more fun imo when you have more options. i dont believe in trade offs maintaining balance but as long as what was given isn't instant **** in a can or just plain annoying, i don't mind. besides i read that they are going to nerf his forwardb, so just wait until everything plays out then voice out.

 

[Sukai]

I'm not really complaining about it, just trying to make sense of it.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

i never said you were complaining, lol.

 

[shanus]

What i find funny is that you guys are complaining about the shine and not sideB. In its untouched form the hitbox is actually in front of its hrtbox. A falco main can actually easily laser camp you and sideB through to keep camping. It can outprioritize a ton of moves too.

Now lets look at the shine change. It has double start uptime (8 frames now) for a
projectile with a range easily met with a fair. Its a an approach mixup and hardly abusable. Guess what, it also encourages approaches as well!

 

[leafgreen386]

It was a one percent damage nerf.
Did that honestly require some sort of compensation?

Considering how much damage falco could rack up by spamming lasers before, I'd say that damage nerf was actually a lot more substantial than you think. It takes a lot more lasers now to rack up that same kind of damage. We're also planning on giving a nerf to his sideB to make it easier to hit him out of it, so if the lasers didn't do it, this will.

 

[Yingyay]

What i find funny is that you guys are complaining about the shine and not sideB. In its untouched form the hitbox is actually in front of its hrtbox. A falco main can actually easily laser camp you and sideB through to keep camping. It can outprioritize a ton of moves too.

Now lets look at the shine change. It has double start uptime (8 frames now) for a
projectile with a range easily met with a fair. Its a an approach mixup and hardly abusable. Guess what, it also encourages approaches as well!

Im done ranting about the shine. I still dont like it but there are things that some people will never agree with 100%

But people have complained about laser camping, sideB running. I think a few people actually do it tho which might be why not alot of people complained about it.

So whats the verdict on Gdubz?

 

[Sukai]

Considering how much damage falco could rack up by spamming lasers before, I'd say that damage nerf was actually a lot more substantial than you think. It takes a lot more lasers now to rack up that same kind of damage. We're also planning on giving a nerf to his sideB to make it easier to hit him out of it, so if the lasers didn't do it, this will.

Strategic-wise, lasers always prioritized baiting or follow ups rather than damage building.
Other than that I've nothing else to say, looking forward to the Phantasm nerf.

 

[JDM]

Nvm. I found it.

 

[Yanoss1313]

hey yall, thought i'd mention a bug that i was struck with a day or so ago, i was shffing with captain falcon, when randomly, i landed in tripped over pose, from that point of, it was as if tripping had been set to 100% chance, even in my replays, lol, stayed like this until i restarted my wii, i don't know if this was a fault in the codes, my wii or even with gecko, hasn't happened since, but i thought i'd mention it.

oh, in case it's relevant, i was fighting a lvl 9 Samus bot on battlefield

EDIT:

There are still problems with Samus causing sudden tripping on all characters in the PAL codeset. Is there a known fix for this?

lol, im guess if IS relevant. it "is" the pal version too >.< ah well

 

[ph00tbag]

^I think that was the story (or some of since IDK about Side-B being OPed). The ZSS mains however wouldn't have that.

I can't speak for all of the ZSS mains, but I'm not bothered by the Plasma Whip nerf, and I certainly didn't need the fsmash buff to compensate. Maybe I'm crazy, but I think this is a healthy outlook, and ultimately is one that Falco mains should look into adopting. I'm also really, really confused as to what the problem is with the laser nerf in the first place. That alone should have encouraged a more offense-based game, and given cause to explore Falco's combo game more. The fact that Falco players wouldn't accept it without a compensatory buff seems immature to me, and I don't think that's something that should be appeased.

But whatever. Obviously the decision's been made, and it's not changing. There's no point in me making anymore arguments. Hopefully nerfing Phantasm works out for the better.

 

[metaXzero]

^They weren't saying Falco lacked a combo game. They were saying his was very simple and dull in comparison to other characters. Something like it was mostly built on just U-tilt->U-tilt (speed-up wasn't there yet) and D-air spam with little variation. So they wanted his Shine to add to Falco's game in a new way, yet not really change his match-ups.

 

[trojanpooh]

It may be that I missed a code when setting up my version of the 4.1B codeset (2 buffer, no frozen stages, and different default rules) but Ivysaur can fly by using his up-b. I'm assuming this is either known, or my fault but doesn't hurt to report it.

Edit: never mind, my fault

 

[Sukai]

hey yall, thought i'd mention a bug that i was struck with a day or so ago, i was shffing with captain falcon, when randomly, i landed in tripped over pose, from that point of, it was as if tripping had been set to 100% chance, even in my replays, lol, stayed like this until i restarted my wii, i don't know if this was a fault in the codes, my wii or even with gecko, hasn't happened since, but i thought i'd mention it.

oh, in case it's relevant, i was fighting a lvl 9 Samus bot on battlefield

EDIT:


lol, im guess if IS relevant. it "is" the pal version too >.< ah well

Well, that's a bug, which hasn't been discovered.
That should go in the official set thread.

 

[smash brawl player 99021]

I love that brawl plus website. Helped so much XDDDDD <Many faces

 

[shanus]

SO after extensive testing, I take back what I said about Falco's phantasm. The hitbox IS behind falco. The problem is the hurtbox size. Its about the height of his beak to his top of his head.

 

[metaXzero]

^Wait. So Falco's hurtbox shrinks during Phantasm?

 

[shanus]

^Wait. So Falco's hurtbox shrinks during Phantasm?

Given how we have no way to truly see it, its hard to say. But I think it does, its classified as a projectile even lol

 

[timothyung]

Is that some weird 3D hurtboxes? And what'll be the solution to this? Can we increase his hurtbox during a move?

 

[Magus420]

You try hitting his body with MK's sword (not glide attack)?

 

[Sukai]

Hurtboxes can't be modified (yet), can they?

 

[Timic83]

Some assistance is required...

Ok, I got the 4.1 small premade SD package from here (http://almas.sitesled.com/index.htm)

I unzipped it straight to my SD card.
How do I make it PAL? The instructions given by the second post make NO sense.
I tried replacing the RSBE01.gct with the RSBP01.gct gotten from that post, and changed the gameconfig.txt to the PAL 4_1 set.txt, but that only froze the game...

Can someone help?

 

[Shell]

Timi83, please read the OP next time.

Any reply that is not does not fall into one of the four following categories is spam and will be punished appropriately:

* Structured, informed issues with balance in the current version, preferably with suggestions for change to fix said problems
* Official responses from WBR Members to said feedback
* Brawl+ Tournament Results Listings (With full details such as Characters, Players, Date and Entry Fee)
* Reports for undocumented bugs within the game itself

To answer your question for now, you must replace the NTSC RSBE01.gct file with the PAL RSBE01.gct file, I believe. Try asking for further assistance in our chat, here:

http://www.gamesurge.net/chat/BrawlPlus

 

[Zodac]

-MK's whorenado now cannot change vertical height due to increased gravity

(fix) -MK's whorenado now cannot change vertical height due to increased gravity if used in the air

 

[trojanpooh]

I very strongly agree with the complaint involving Diddy. There is no reason why he should be the only character that has to time his recovery perfectly just to grab onto the ledge.

 

[Revven]

I very strongly agree with the complaint involving Diddy. There is no reason why he should be the only character that has to time his recovery perfectly just to grab onto the ledge.

Yes there is, he has an amazing onstage game and you should know that. The bad recovery balances him out much like it does for DK. If Diddy Kong gets a recovery fix, so does DK. Oh wait, that's not gonna happen because they're both GOOD ONSTAGE LIKE FOX.

 

[Jos]

Shine is not OP, please learn to DI. Also, for the second problem, turn your buffer up to 100% (10 frames, Brawl's default).

If you are playing falco, you should know that you can do it in a way where DI is impossible to escape a hit. Unless you are using the shine incorrectly or the enemy is at very high %, Each way your opponent DI's you can do SOMETHING to them from the shine, it is an amazing combo starter. We have spent some time testing this...

Handicap is set at 0%, we don't play with brawls default. With it set at 0%, before we upgraded there was no change to the Nair. Now there is...Something has def. been changed.