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Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

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weinzey

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 2, 2009
Messages
176
My arguement against Shiek's fair was mostly about it's offstage utility. DI is null against Shiek's fair when you're both in the air/ you're both offstage.

Like, the fair's attributes and Shiek's grav/momentum work more than perfect, hand in hand.
well, isnt that a good thing considering sheik gets like 3 out of 4 kills out of gimping?
its just like mk and his dair, rob and his fair, wario and his fair/nair, dedede's/kirby's multiple jumps and their bair all work together seemingly perfect.
and sheik is the only one of those who a) has really bad/situational onstage kill moves and more importantly b) can only spend a short amount of time offstage due to her limited revovery/fast falling speed. that basically makes her desperate for her moves to be fast and link well, both of which the old fair provided and is now crippled.

also her fair does rather little damage and is weak. thus it's meant to be linked together easily.

summing up: her offstage shouldnt be nerfed at all, since that is what defines sheik.


EDIT: @build frequency: why not release officials monthly? that would solve the problem and nightlies could go back to what they were intended to.
 

GHNeko

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well, isnt that a good thing considering sheik gets like 3 out of 4 kills out of gimping?
its just like mk and his dair, rob and his fair, wario and his fair/nair, dedede's/kirby's multiple jumps and their bair all work together seemingly perfect.
and sheik is the only one of those who a) has really bad/situational onstage kill moves and more importantly b) can only spend a short amount of time offstage due to her limited revovery/fast falling speed. that basically makes her desperate for her moves to be fast and link well, both of which the old fair provided and is now crippled.


EDIT: @build frequency: why not release officials monthly? that would solve the problem and nightlies could go back to what they were intended to.
MK's Dair doesnt work like that aymore. Rob's Fair doesnt work like that on the way down, meaning he go up and down, that and it isnt as fast as Shiek's old fair and its more DIable with a lack of onstage use as tacked on to his Fair.

Wario's fair can barely imitate shiek fair and the angle sends up and out.

D3/Kirby's bair dont send down, they send up, and can't combo like fair.

They all fall short to Shiek's old fair off-stage utility in more wayss than one.
 

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
3,299
well it kinda of makes sense for sheik's fair to be very useful when pretty much all of her aerials suck. Without a good fair, sheik sucks at gimping, which is her best attribute.

uair: it's good for juggling, but that's not her character at all.

bair: just sucks. fair is completely superior. too much endlag.

nair: this is actually pretty good. but it's not that good for gimping due to it's trajectory.

dair: lolz
 

TLMSheikant

Smash Master
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Oct 6, 2008
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I think sheik's dair needs a little damage buff and angle change to make it a little useful :S. Oh and symphonic sage her bair does not suck. It has great range. And I agree that sheik needs her gimping fair.
 

JCaesar

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Yeah Sheik's bair is great, wtf? Fair doesn't linger at all.

I find it very useful vs Peach especially.
 

RyokoYaksa

BRoomer
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5,056
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Philadelphia, USA
You need to use Sheik's Dair more. Stall-then-fall aerials that actually have follow ups are not common among the cast, and have a nice niche other moves can't fill. The only thing may warranting a buff on Dair is slightly higher angle from 70. And another-Sheik's Bair is great, are you on crack?

Also, who are we to judge what Sheik's character is? At the most basic level, juggles are combos, and Sheik is a combo character. As I said before, less lag on Fair doesn't actually make the move itself gimp better, and just means you need to be precise with them. Uair juggles instead are trickier to do, and have a chance to be DIable. Use much clawing to get those SH AC uairs down. It's actually something cerebral Sheik can do to build nice damage.
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
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Mar 14, 2008
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Playing Melee
character specific ATs are another form of TRUE AT, that we're looking for.
Character specific ATs aren't enough to make the game harder.
Adding "depth" via using your mind isn't enough to make the game harder.
You need to make the game more technical and Character specific ATs is just one part of it.

L canceling (you are canceling a move and not just any move, aerials only. Button presses should be associated with canceling something. It wasn't broke or detrimental to the past games and added to the flow and speed of the game. I don't care if its easy to do, the more things you need to keep track of, the more technical and harder and better the game becomes. I heard the GENESIS commentators on melee matches say several times things like "Those L cancels are sooo important" and complimenting how well players are executing L cancels. You even see players miss l cancels which can result in loss of combos and stocks. It DOES add skill that isn't artificial to the game and its a global game mechanic.

Something you guys didn't like and it was part of your reason that you didn't want it was in melee there was no punishment for missing. Well......give it the teching treatment so you only have one chance to cancel an aerial so you can't spam it. This will add depth because you can mindgame or fake out the attacker by altering the hitlag length to force a missed l cancel. There are so many things that can alter your l cancel timing and if you can also add in light shielding, that would be yet another variable that alters l cancel timing.

NADT. In melee, you don't really see this mechanic come into play too often (as in, most of the time, people use an aerial to get out of tumble instead of wiggling so you really aren't wiggling the whole match like people make it out to be) But it really does make a difference to the game play. It helps with zoning immensely. Idk what else to say about this. There was a big debate there the Pro NADT clearly won but it wasn't included "just because" and "we want to streamline the game."

Air dodging is over powered. B+ really should incorporate my Melee air dodge variation for brawl. Basically, air dodging stops all vertical momentum (ie fast falls) and the gravity during the air dodge is much less this way you can only travel so far during an air dodge (approx the length of melee's) instead of the whole length of the stage. After I quit B+ and went back to melee, I honestly forgot how to recover from a combo/juggle because I was so used to Brawl+ (yes the game) recovering for me. The air dodging system is a major reason why the game is so easy which is why my Melee air dodge tailored to the Brawl system would be a great fix to the problem.

Brawl's ledge grab range should be reduced and esp since there is ledge teching, there is no excuse not to fix it so it doesn't grab you.

The NASL code also needs to be cleaned up so that:
1.) Side b's do NOT autosweet spot
2.) You can't auto sweetspot when you hit someone or their shield

And of course, that CC idea of mine would help out

Add FF during tumble

Fix Auto jabs
_____________________

That's all I can think of for now, not that it matters. These are the things I have fought for that no one cares about.

I just find it way too easy to play brawl+ which is what has turned me away from playing it. When someone u normally beat fine beats u and combos the heck out of u with little to no effort u know something is wrong. What are the reasonings for not having manual l cancelling anyway? It adds depth and yes, that single button press when landing makes a difference. It separates the noobs from the ones that know how to do it :/.
TLMSheikant, I definitely understand where you come from and how you feel.

PS: Hitstun is way too high. IMO, the goal for hitstun should be very close to the default hitstun. Idc how you plan on compensating for any lose of important combos, whether it be through gravity or IASA. Combos are simply too easy. And for those who don't understand, no. Putting hitstun back to its default will NOT make the game like vbrawl because vbrawl you could cancel the hitstun. This would bring the hitstun at default but you can NOT cancel it.

More skill. More mindgames. Less easy, stupid combos that can be performed without much dedication to the game

Disclaimer:

I fully understand that over half the things mentioned will not happen. Just have nothing to do, I guess



And if anyone thinks I have bad intentions for the game....you are a moron!!
 

WheelOfFish

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 8, 2009
Messages
387
Is it possible to speed up Samus's fast fall?

And I'm in full support of adding taunt canceling.
 

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
3,299
Character specific ATs aren't enough to make the game harder.
Adding "depth" via using your mind isn't enough to make the game harder.
You need to make the game more technical and Character specific ATs is just one part of it.

L canceling (you are canceling a move and not just any move, aerials only. Button presses should be associated with canceling something. It wasn't broke or detrimental to the past games and added to the flow and speed of the game. I don't care if its easy to do, the more things you need to keep track of, the more technical and harder and better the game becomes. I heard the GENESIS commentators on melee matches say several times things like "Those L cancels are sooo important" and complimenting how well players are executing L cancels. You even see players miss l cancels which can result in loss of combos and stocks. It DOES add skill that isn't artificial to the game and its a global game mechanic.

Something you guys didn't like and it was part of your reason that you didn't want it was in melee there was no punishment for missing. Well......give it the teching treatment so you only have one chance to cancel an aerial so you can't spam it. This will add depth because you can mindgame or fake out the attacker by altering the hitlag length to force a missed l cancel. There are so many things that can alter your l cancel timing and if you can also add in light shielding, that would be yet another variable that alters l cancel timing.

NADT. In melee, you don't really see this mechanic come into play too often (as in, most of the time, people use an aerial to get out of tumble instead of wiggling so you really aren't wiggling the whole match like people make it out to be) But it really does make a difference to the game play. It helps with zoning immensely. Idk what else to say about this. There was a big debate there the Pro NADT clearly won but it wasn't included "just because" and "we want to streamline the game."

Air dodging is over powered. B+ really should incorporate my Melee air dodge variation for brawl. Basically, air dodging stops all vertical momentum (ie fast falls) and the gravity during the air dodge is much less this way you can only travel so far during an air dodge (approx the length of melee's) instead of the whole length of the stage. After I quit B+ and went back to melee, I honestly forgot how to recover from a combo/juggle because I was so used to Brawl+ (yes the game) recovering for me. The air dodging system is a major reason why the game is so easy which is why my Melee air dodge tailored to the Brawl system would be a great fix to the problem.

Brawl's ledge grab range should be reduced and esp since there is ledge teching, there is no excuse not to fix it so it doesn't grab you.

The NASL code also needs to be cleaned up so that:
1.) Side b's do NOT autosweet spot
2.) You can't auto sweetspot when you hit someone or their shield

And of course, that CC idea of mine would help out

Add FF during tumble

Fix Auto jabs
_____________________

That's all I can think of for now, not that it matters. These are the things I have fought for that no one cares about.



TLMSheikant, I definitely understand where you come from and how you feel.

PS: Hitstun is way too high. IMO, the goal for hitstun should be very close to the default hitstun. Idc how you plan on compensating for any lose of important combos, whether it be through gravity or IASA. Combos are simply too easy. And for those who don't understand, no. Putting hitstun back to its default will NOT make the game like vbrawl because vbrawl you could cancel the hitstun. This would bring the hitstun at default but you can NOT cancel it.

More skill. More mindgames. Less easy, stupid combos that can be performed without much dedication to the game

Disclaimer:

I fully understand that over half the things mentioned will not happen. Just have nothing to do, I guess



And if anyone thinks I have bad intentions for the game....you are a moron!!

You realize that this isn't melee 2.0, right?

"But I'm not trying to make it melee 2.0, I just happen to be suggesting a lot of things from melee since that game was the best by far"

Sure, but adding a lot of Melee stuff like that would, in itself, MAKE it melee 2.0. Don't get me wrong, I love a lot of stuff from Melee, but we don't want to change this into Melee-With-Better-Graphics. But I am fine with putting some more melee stuff back in.


I did like regular l-cancelling better. I've changed my mind. I felt a lot more skillful in melee when I had to actually be careful with link's dair rather than just land on the ground know my lag is automatically reduced to 50% or w/e.

I do like the hyrbid airdodge better. I usually add it in to the text file myself. :)

I like the no autosweetspotting stuff...

I like the CC ideas as well..

But I do like auto jabs. No auto jabs make pika scream in terror.

I think the hitstun should be more than vbrawl's. but not as much as it is now. Luigi nair>metaknight. You can seriously nair, double jump, and nair before the enemy can even SDI or move, really. I might be exaggerating, but some moves are ridiculous.


EDIT: BTW Kupo, you need to fix the layout for the hybrid airdodge code in the code agenda. Some lines have a space before them, and there's a blank line in the middle of the code.

~ SymphonicSage12
 

GHNeko

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really that long?? lol
seriously i want this to become official since i love v5 more than other ones
There is a reason why its called Beta. V:

We still have a handful of things to fix, and another handful of things to REMEMBER and then Fix. Then a dozen things to refix and unfix.

Then we have to wait for things to show up before we fix.

It's a long process, son.
 

cookieM0Nster

Smash Champion
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oakland
cookiemonster said in another thread that he want everything in Brawl "plussified".
Yeah so we should discuss what we can do.

Buffer - done
Mark neutral, cp, and banned stages with a green, yellow and red border respectively?
title screen
anymore suggestions?
I am editing the title screen, some other things to the buffer (not 100% done yet, some things are missing...), the "Ready to Start" thing, and a bunch of other stuff. It will be very fun to mess around with these .pacs.

And it would make B+ look so much more leet.
 

Machiavelli.CF

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I am editing the title screen, some other things to the buffer (not 100% done yet, some things are missing...), the "Ready to Start" thing, and a bunch of other stuff. It will be very fun to mess around with these .pacs.

And it would make B+ look so much more leet.
is it being planned to change things like
10% (in handicap)
to:
1 Frame
?
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
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Messages
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Playing Melee
You realize that this isn't melee 2.0, right?

"But I'm not trying to make it melee 2.0, I just happen to be suggesting a lot of things from melee since that game was the best by far"

Sure, but adding a lot of Melee stuff like that would, in itself, MAKE it melee 2.0. Don't get me wrong, I love a lot of stuff from Melee, but we don't want to change this into Melee-With-Better-Graphics. But I am fine with putting some more melee stuff back in.
I don't care how many melee stuff you put in this game...this will NEVER be Melee 2.0!! It won't feel like melee, it won't be as hard as melee, it won't BE MELEE! The Brawl engine will never allow it. Period. What you don't realize is this. Melee 2.0 isn't Melee 2.0. Melee 2.0 is in fact the best Brawl+ can ever get. Its looking at everything that worked so well into making Smash such a fantastically great game in their own game, trying them all out and seeing which game mechanics work the best in Brawl's engine.

For example, we tried Wavedashing. It is terrible. It doesn't mesh with Brawl's engine at all and its missing the special landing animation. But there are a lot of other mechanics that do work well with Brawl's engine and can enhance the gameplay. Even if you don't want to replicate some mechanics to the T, you can study and understand the concept of why that mechanic is there and figure out another way to impliment it that fits your wants in B+. An example is my solution to improve the AD system and add CC by taking the concept from melee and morphing it to B+.

But you also must keep in mind how to make the mechanic good for competitive play instead of just streamlining it so you can be lazy while you play. An example is L canceling. B+ streamlined this by including this competitive mechanic while remove the competitiveness from it. Instead of making it automatic, here is a suggestion. Remove ALR altogether and replace it with IASA frames if its possible. This is a much better solution to morphing it to brawl+ because the dedicated, good players will know the exact frame in which they can react from the landing lag through feel by playing the game a lot, and the lesser skilled, undedicated won't. Now I hear that this is how Ganon's utilt was made cancelable and it didn't work well, but that doesn't matter. You see my thought process.

Also, seeing how my Melee 2.0 doesn't include wavedashing and a replica of CC, (amongst other things I think and not to mention that Melee has no RARing and pivot grabs) you can no longer call the game I'm pushing for "Melee 2.0." MY Melee 2.0 in reality is looking at what was done right in the past, and finding a way to perfectly mesh it into the Brawl engine to achieve the same greatness it had before. And you want to ignore it and say no because "Its from Melee?" So if its from Melee it must be bad. Even if its also in 64 as well? But it doesn't matter because it was also in Melee and Melee was terrible. Just the fact that its from Melee is reason enough not to include it........right....>_>

Another thing, I find it funny how people (including the WBR) scream Melee 2.0 with my suggestions, yet who was the one that added JC shine to Fox? Seriously, this addition screams more of Melee 2.0 than what I mentioned above not to mention hypocritical. What I'm trying to bring to the table is a more focus on game mechanics. Game mechanics are so important because without them, all this hard work on character changes is useless IMO which is why I prefer melee and even 64 to Brawl+. Melee and 64 feel much more like a fighting game because they have solid game mechanics and the character imbalance of melee is something I can tolerate because the game feels so much more solid.

So you guys can cry and point out that I'm trying to turn Brawl+ into melee 2.0 but what you don't realize is that your NOT saying "Uhh, kupo, you do realize this isn't melee?" Your really just saying [bluntly] this: "Uhh, kupo, you do realize this isn't supposed to be top notch, good competitive smash game?" Don't think for a minute that when you streamline the game this badly and slap a "competitive" label on it that I'm going to buy into that when the fact of the matter is that it takes more skill and more dedication to be good at Vbrawl than Brawl+ regardless of the fact that Vbrawl has next to none of the traditional competitive, fighting mechanics.

I think the hitstun should be more than vbrawl's. but not as much as it is now. Luigi nair>metaknight. You can seriously nair, double jump, and nair before the enemy can even SDI or move, really. I might be exaggerating, but some moves are ridiculous.

~ SymphonicSage12
Hitstun seriously is too much. I managed to pull off satisfying combos at a lesser gravity setting in my set, but that is because I had my mechanics to make up for it.
 

Alphatron

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
2,269
An example is L canceling. B+ streamlined this by including this competitive mechanic while remove the competitiveness from it. Instead of making it automatic, here is a suggestion. Remove ALR altogether and replace it with IASA frames if its possible. This is a much better solution to morphing it to brawl+ because the dedicated, good players will know the exact frame in which they can react from the landing lag through feel by playing the game a lot, and the lesser skills undedicated won't.
NOW this man has got me interested!
 

sffadsad

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
148
An example is L canceling. B+ streamlined this by including this competitive mechanic while remove the competitiveness from it. Instead of making it automatic, here is a suggestion. Remove ALR altogether and replace it with IASA frames if its possible. This is a much better solution to morphing it to brawl+ because the dedicated, good players will know the exact frame in which they can react from the landing lag through feel by playing the game a lot, and the lesser skills undedicated won't.
That sounds like a whole bunch of ridiculous to me. First of all, there's the buffer. The buffer makes your IASA frames much easier. Secondly, I really don't see a point in trying to increase the gap between pro players and casual players by putting in a technical wall. In the end, the serious and dedicated players are the ones who end up going to tournies and winning. Even with vBrawl and its lack of balance we consistently see the better players winning even though all the easy techs and Metaknight are accessible to even the casual players. The current ALR system simply makes less lag a available for everyone.

As a casual myself, I enjoy to boost this gives to the overall speed and comboability of Brawl+. What does it take away from serious players that makes you want to change it?
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
there will always be a technical wall between players. the fact that we're using physical controllers implies technical abilities - we are not playing the game with our minds. that argument doesn't fly, because it exists on a smaller scale.
 

Swordplay

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
1,716
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Chicago
Id like to report something really strange.....

Matt4300 and I discovered that tether characters go into a strange super slow motion animation instead of thier swining animation when they tether onto the front tip of the RC ship......

ITS A FREAKING WIERD ANIMATION. If it hasn't been noticed before, I just wanted to bring it up.....

We tested Olimar Ivy Link Zamus Samus and Shiek......


I don't remember this being brought up so I thought I would.....Sorry if it had been mentioned previously....
 

Alphatron

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
2,269
You could make the IASA interrupt via only a few actions. However, we'd still need a drawback for such a thing. What would be the punishment for trying to IASA too early?

Btw, don't loop casuals and people who suck at video games together. Half my friends L-cancel without even knowing what it is.
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
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That sounds like a whole bunch of ridiculous to me. First of all, there's the buffer. The buffer makes your IASA frames much easier.
I realize that buffer really kills this idea, but if somehow a code can be made so that buffering doesn't affect IASA, that would be a nice improvement not only for this example, but for the moves themselves. This would reward the player that plays more often because they can consistently reap the rewards from IASA without the game helping them out at all. I know Melee had some buffering. Maybe Magus can clarify if there is buffering for IASA

Even with vBrawl and its lack of balance we consistently see the better players winning even though all the easy techs and Metaknight are accessible to even the casual players. The current ALR system simply makes less lag a available for everyone.
Vbrawl is built to favor playing smarter over harder. Brawl+ adds back in the mechanics that made Smash half smarts and half technique (%s may vary) but in the process they removed the technique required to obtain the reward from said techniques. This is what makes the game easier. So by adding back in the technique that should have accompanied the addition to the mechanics, IMO that is how you improve the competitiveness of the game and create a skill gap.
As a casual myself, I enjoy to boost this gives to the overall speed and comboability of Brawl+. What does it take away from serious players that makes you want to change it?
The lag reduction of aerials are great. I'm not saying they aren't. Its just the fact that its automatic somehow just makes the game drastically simpler. You should give it a try. Go back and play 64 and notice the difference in the game with l canceling vs B+'s ALR. I was just giving an example of how to add skill to l canceling and my overall views on how to improve the game by taking something familiar and morphing it to B+'s direction.



EDIT


You could make the IASA interrupt via only a few actions. However, we'd still need a drawback for such a thing. What would be the punishment for trying to IASA too early?
The punishment for IASA too early is that you won't be able to IASA the frame its there. I don't think its humanly possible to input an action 1 or 2 frames too soon then react and input the action again the first frame of IASA to correct your mistake.
there will always be a technical wall between players. the fact that we're using physical controllers implies technical abilities - we are not playing the game with our minds. that argument doesn't fly, because it exists on a smaller scale.
QFT
 

Mattnumbers

Smash Master
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I actually like the IASA idea, it doesn't repel new people as much in my opinion since its a technique you would develop naturally in specific characters just from playing them. You probably wouldn't even notice it unless someone told you it was in but that the same time it would make it harder to be good at the game.

The only problem is making buffer not work on it.

Also, you have to think about the people looking at Brawl+ from the outside, they are potential players, which we need. We don't want get labeled as Melee 2.0 (even if we aren't) simply because it will mean less people start playing Brawl+. As long as we don't call this something dumb that links it to L-cancelling then this should be fine, since they just see it as another way to reduce lag and combo properly.
 

leafgreen386

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I'm not really sure why people like the idea of the IASA on landing lag so much. It accomplishes exactly the same thing as the current ALR does, but certain animations probably won't look as smooth anymore, since instead of just speeding them up, you're outright interrupting them. Most moves actually have too little landing lag as it is for you to be able to react to the animation finishing before you input your next action. With ALR, you input your action when you know you can act. With IASA, you would input your action when you know you can act. It's the same thing. One just looks prettier.
 

sffadsad

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
148
I realize that buffer really kills this idea, but if somehow a code can be made so that buffering doesn't affect IASA, that would be a nice improvement not only for this example, but for the moves themselves. This would reward the player that plays more often because they can consistently reap the rewards from IASA without the game helping them out at all. I know Melee had some buffering. Maybe Magus can clarify if there is buffering for IASA
I'm fairly certain IASA frames are affected by the buffer as well. In vBrawl I can do Marth's IASA Marth's dtilt "sooner" than I can in Brawl+ with a 50% buffer.

Vbrawl is built to favor playing smarter over harder. Brawl+ adds back in the mechanics that made Smash half smarts and half technique (%s may vary) but in the process they removed the technique required to obtain the reward from said techniques. This is what makes the game easier. So by adding back in the technique that should have accompanied the addition to the mechanics, IMO that is how you improve the competitiveness of the game and create a skill gap.
Shouldn't games favor the smarter? I'm not sure what you mean by harder though. As I see it, fighting games are only as hard as your opponent makes them. The difference I see between vBrawl and Brawl+ is that vBrawl puts a greater emphasis on turtle like tactics whereas Brawl+ rewards the player who breaks down the defense of the opponent. i believe that this causes a larger amount of competition already since players are now doign two things at once, building a defense and trying to break down their opponent's. Again I don't understand what your sense of easier or harder is in a fighting game, but it seems to me like you mean it by tech skill right?

The lag reduction of aerials are great. I'm not saying they aren't. Its just the fact that its automatic somehow just makes the game drastically simpler. You should give it a try. Go back and play 64 and notice the difference in the game with l canceling vs B+'s ALR. I was just giving an example of how to add skill to l canceling and my overall views on how to improve the game by taking something familiar and morphing it to B+'s direction.
The thing that I was trying to get at was the automatic part. To be honest I like it simply because I don't have the time to go and figure out every character's timing for a manual method of canceling. Also, I believe that the direction of Brawl+ was set by the the WBR. IIRC they had a mission statement somewhere, but I can't find it right now. As for the Smash 64 thing, I really don't notice a difference. I can still z-cancel with Ness and Falcon, but i fail to notice the difference with ALR other than the fact that I have to push a button. Perhaps it's because I don't have as deep of an understanding of the games as you do.

Btw, don't loop casuals and people who suck at video games together. Half my friends L-cancel without even knowing what it is.
In the end casuals will always be worse than the hardcore gamer at games because casuals don't put all that much time and effort into it. Therefore casuals and people who suck will remain at a lower level than the people who practice and get better at the game.


Looking back I realize that my wording was bad. When I said technical wall, I meant it in the way that things like a manual form of l canceling would simply widen a technical gap between the casual and the hardcore players, a gap that really isn't necessary since the times that the two groups will face off will be far and few between. Even if a casual and a hardcore do ever play against each other simply l canceling will not be enough to let the casual win. This was evident in Melee when wavedashing wasn't enough to make you good. This is why I feel that a bigger technical gap is pointless.
 

weinzey

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 2, 2009
Messages
176
Also, who are we to judge what Sheik's character is? At the most basic level, juggles are combos, and Sheik is a combo character.
i dont know if u are referring to my post, but i guess so. i didnt judge what sheik's character is by myself. i observed the metagame and sheik undinyably consist(ed) of horizontal combos and gimps, which both got hit hard by the fair nerf. now, her game evolves around juggles, which she aint the best at (as mentioned abouve). characters like zss just overtrump her in this sector, while also having other options aside (zss fi has a nice zoning game, kills well, recovers well and also has some horizontal combos w/ dash attack and fair).

so, there aint really a reason to play sheik anymore (other than personal preference ofc) since there are a bunch of characters that gimp a lot better now (and can also kill) and a bunch of characters that juggle (and again, kill) better.

As I said before, less lag on Fair doesn't actually make the move itself gimp better, and just means you need to be precise with them.
that's not true. since comboing them offstage and then finishing them aint possible the way it was before her gimp game is definetely harmed.

ghneko said a few posts ago that the problem with fair was its offstage use. so u wanted to nerf it for two completely different reasons and nerfed sheik twice basically in the process.

also i have to say this change kinda remind me of the rob fair changes that were in one nightly (higher angle). they also nerfed his gimp game and turned it into a combo move. that turned out really bad and was quickly removed.


leafgreen i need some backup;)
 

timothyung

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
948
Location
Hong Kong
Actually does the extra 5 frames really affect her so much?


Ah L-canceling again. We make Brawl+ for fun. All the changes in Brawl+ are made so it is more fun, at least for us. We think combos are fun. We like a more aggressive gameplay. I don't think requiring the player to press a button to reduce the lag is fun. It makes the game less enjoyable for most players. Those with slow fingers, those with bad timing, or those who don't even know about L-canceling. Indeed, competitiveness is important too, but fun is far more important than this. We play games for fun.

But I agree with the no auto sweetspot fix. Can we possibly do this via PSA? Like, is there a "ledge grab window" for moves?


Also cookieM0Nster: In case you don't know,
Brawl text: http://www.spriters-resource.com/other_systems/ssbb/sheet/25131
Banner and Logo: http://www.spriters-resource.com/other_systems/ssbb/sheet/26095

Should we make a thread about "Official Brawl+ texture pack"?
 

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
3,299
It does...it ruins fair gimping offstage. Now even timing it right only gets you probably two fairs, which isn't nearly enough to gimp anyone.
 

CloneHat

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
2,131
Location
Montreal, Quebec
Oh my, it's the L canceling argument again.

Does it add "depth"? No.

It adds difficulty, but that melts away into nothingness after you get a feel for L-cancel.

I consider depth to be options, and this isn't an option, it's just more input.
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
Shouldn't games favor the smarter? I'm not sure what you mean by harder though. As I see it, fighting games are only as hard as your opponent makes them. The difference I see between vBrawl and Brawl+ is that vBrawl puts a greater emphasis on turtle like tactics whereas Brawl+ rewards the player who breaks down the defense of the opponent. i believe that this causes a larger amount of competition already since players are now doign two things at once, building a defense and trying to break down their opponent's. Again I don't understand what your sense of easier or harder is in a fighting game, but it seems to me like you mean it by tech skill right?
I see you got a hold of this before I edited it out. The posts before mine made me not need half of what I wrote. But in a nut shell, the smarter player will always win, but the trick for "fighting games" is that the better player will be good enough so his technical work doesn't distract his mind and currently, there is nothing of the sort.

Even if a casual and a hardcore do ever play against each other simply l canceling will not be enough to let the casual win. This was evident in Melee when wavedashing wasn't enough to make you good. This is why I feel that a bigger technical gap is pointless.
So just because you couldn't win with wavedashing alone, that makes wavedashing a pointless, technical wall? You can't be taking things out of context like that because with just one tech alone, you can't win but it doesn't make it pointless. Its the combination of a lot of simple but important tasks as a whole that makes a good skill gap. Being able to keep up your fundamentals for any game is important and I feel L canceling is a fundamental...but I digress ;)


The thing that I was trying to get at was the automatic part. To be honest I like it simply because I don't have the time to go and figure out every character's timing for a manual method of canceling. Also, I believe that the direction of Brawl+ was set by the the WBR. IIRC they had a mission statement somewhere, but I can't find it right now. As for the Smash 64 thing, I really don't notice a difference. I can still z-cancel with Ness and Falcon, but i fail to notice the difference with ALR other than the fact that I have to push a button. Perhaps it's because I don't have as deep of an understanding of the games as you do.
I really don't know what to say then if you don't feel a difference. I can see where you come from since you stated that you are a casual player but the thing is, Brawl+ was supposed to be competitive based, so trying not to sound too blunt, your input for the project really shouldn't hold that much weight since you aren't about making it competitive but since B+ wants to attract people, they are sacrificing the original goal of the project when it was started and are taking you casuals opinions more just to attract you. But then again, there are some competitive players who also don't like the concept of l canceling and some that do. Its a real split and an argument that I don't feel like arguing again....so I won't push the subject. I would be happy if the WBR took most of my ideas stated above and included them over l canceling.


In the end casuals will always be worse than the hardcore gamer at games because casuals don't put all that much time and effort into it. Therefore casuals and people who suck will remain at a lower level than the people who practice and get better at the game.
But you forget that there are different levels of competitive people. I'm competitive but I am nowhere as good as M2k or Mango or even DJNintendo or Alukard ect.


Symphonic_Sage: No I didn't skip them. I read it its just that I spent so much words on the first part that I didn't want to make the more massive. But its cool you like the things you mentioned ;)
 

cookieM0Nster

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
2,512
Location
oakland
Oh my, it's the L canceling argument again.

Does it add "depth"? No.

It adds difficulty, but that melts away into nothingness after you get a feel for L-cancel.

I consider depth to be options, and this isn't an option, it's just more input.
Agreed. Adding L-Canceling to B+ is unneeded, and it will not add anything new to an already great game.
 
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