Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Skip2MaLoo]

It's not that great of a fix. More like a sloppy workaround, but it will have to do.

At least now you'll feel like you actually accomplished something when you do footstool rather than in just being a product of circumstance.

**** you its fixed blow me. i still love you leaf green.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Hmm, sounds good. I would like to try it out at least along with Shanus' footstool additions. I have one question tho.

If your opponent air dodges (avoiding the footstool) do you use your second jump, air dodge, or does nothing happen from the input?

 

[RPGsFTW]

I think I like LeafGreen's idea. No more accidental Badass Stomping, thank goodness was that gay.

I guys all we'd have to do is get used to some people air-dodging right above us in mid-air now, but at least that allows us to know that it's coming.

I'd very much like to test that.

 

[kupo15]

That is an awesome idea leaf! And canceling only during the startup ensures that you can't get free FS from invincibility. Amazing

So revamped FS mechanics
Revamped spot dodges
Revamped Air dodges
No more auto jabs

That makes for one hell of an update

 

[matt4300]

That is an awesome idea leaf! And canceling only during the startup ensures that you can't get free FS from invincibility. Amazing

So revamped FS mechanics
Revamped spot dodges
Revamped Air dodges
No more auto jabs

That makes for one hell of an update

@_@ what? Is this why I heard everyone was gonna **** bricks with the next nightly? All I can say is if air dodges are any faster or worse... Say good bye to any chance of a heavy winning anything ever.

Whats this about FS mechanics though :D

 

[iLink]

I'm not too sure about using the air dodge to do this but it could be because I'm not really understanding it right. My assumption is if you start an air dodge and try to cancel it with a footstool, you either actually get the footstool or you might have missed and would continue with the air dodge.

If this is the case, your really have more to loss from this because if you miss, you put yourself in a bad position if we are talking about an offstage situation. When I actually attempt to do a footstool but miss, I still get my jump so I'm not in such a bad position.

If you mean you cancel the air dodge and miss but still get your second jump to happen, then that wouldn't be as bad.

How many frames does it take for the invincibility frames to kick in?

 

[cAm8ooo]

^^ This is pretty much my concern. If you continue to airdodge then footstooling becomes much to risky for heavy or bad recovery characters and gives the characters who are already great at recovering even better off stage control.

If possible i would like it to jump.

 

[leafgreen386]

I'm not too sure about using the air dodge to do this but it could be because I'm not really understanding it right. My assumption is if you start an air dodge and try to cancel it with a footstool, you either actually get the footstool or you might have missed and would continue with the air dodge.

If this is the case, your really have more to loss from this because if you miss, you put yourself in a bad position if we are talking about an offstage situation. When I actually attempt to do a footstool but miss, I still get my jump so I'm not in such a bad position.

If you mean you cancel the air dodge and miss but still get your second jump to happen, then that wouldn't be as bad.

How many frames does it take for the invincibility frames to kick in?

Then don't screw up. There should be at least three frames to execute the footstool in... possibly up to five. The exact number will come from whatever we end up deciding to do with airdodges. The fact that you're being given the ability to footstool cancel alongside this adds whole new offensive options to it, so while it will be harder to execute, there's also a higher potential reward. The airdodge is the punishment for screwing up.

 

[stingers]

only 3 frames? thats a pretty tight window...just make it any point during the airdodge. I mean, why not?

 

[thesage]

only 3 frames? thats a pretty tight window...just make it any point during the airdodge. I mean, why not?

Wouldn't that be a bit broken? Though I do agree 3 frames is too small a window. It's like powershielding... I want to test it out though, maybe it doesn't feel so tight ingame.

 

[kupo15]

only 3 frames? thats a pretty tight window...just make it any point during the airdodge. I mean, why not?

That would be a little OP possibly. Offensive tactics from an invincible state? 3 frames in brawl's engine is not that hard anyway. Powershielding is set to 2 frames and its a little on the easy side. Timing would not be hard at all, unless you are talking about flexibility in the technique

 

[cAm8ooo]

Then don't screw up. There should be at least three frames to execute the footstool in... possibly up to five. The exact number will come from whatever we end up deciding to do with airdodges. The fact that you're being given the ability to footstool cancel alongside this adds whole new offensive options to it, so while it will be harder to execute, there's also a higher potential reward. The airdodge is the punishment for screwing up.

I dont have a problem with screwing up the timing and getting punished with an airdodge you didnt want. Thats very reasonable. My problem is if the opponent see's it coming and airdodges so that you cant footstool them it basically gives them a drastic advantage. It wouldnt matter for characters like kirby, metaknight and others who have plenty of jumps to not care but characters like bowser/ganon will more then likely die.

Basically, can you only cancel your airdodge if you successfully footstool your opponent? Or can i jump in the air, airdodge/cancel out the first frames into a jump without my opponent even being under me?

 

[stingers]

powershielding is a lot easier though...you have to consider you'll be falling during the airdodge. you have to time the airdodge perfectly, THEN time the jump perfectly on top of that. it's a bit much.

and really i don't see why this change is warranted at all, it seems like it's just making the game harder for the purpose of making the game harder. yoshi doesn't need a buff to his recovery and since footstools can be teched all the ******** infinites are gone...just leave it how it is tbqh

 

[leafgreen386]

I've got an idea. How about everyone shut up about how small the window is and actually think for a moment? Thanks.

You control the timing of when you airdodge and jump. All you have to do is position yourself into footstool range over the opponent and then time your two button presses. The timing itself isn't any harder than landing a regular footstool. You're just now adding an extra button press before that to enable you to perform it. Just because something has tight timing doesn't automatically make it super hard or impossible. That's only when you're trying to perform something based on reaction. You know you're going to go for a footstool, and whenever you're in control of the timing, it's just a matter of learning that timing before it becomes second nature. Powershielding is infinitely harder than this (especially considering how in brawl+ it has a whopping one frame window).

 

[MK26]

what about doing something less suicide-inducing like...if you press jump twice within a window of x frames and you are in a position to fs, the jump you just performed gets canceled and you footstool.

leaf's proposal is just the game punishing you for attempting to footstool if you dont have any more jumps to cover you in case you screw up

 

[Demacrez]

Okay, so we eliminate screw ups then?

 

[cookieM0Nster]

Who else is annoyed by the dash cancel code that freezes if you press buttons when the match ends? Even though I haven't expereinced any freezes lately, I am still going to figure out how to cancel a run with a crouch, and then tell you guys how to do it, for the good of B+.

Although EXTREMELY off what you guys are talking about

edit: ninjad. :/

 

[kupo15]

what about doing something less suicide-inducing like...if you press jump twice within a window of x frames and you are in a position to fs, the jump you just performed gets canceled and you footstool.

leaf's proposal is just the game punishing you for attempting to footstool if you dont have any more jumps to cover you in case you screw up

Leaf's suggestion is faster than the double tap and with the new air dodge mechanic, it won't be as suicidal because you won't travel as far in the air dodge animation. Risk for a big reward.

The game is boring when everything is safe

 

[iLink]

what about doing something less suicide-inducing like...if you press jump twice within a window of x frames and you are in a position to fs, the jump you just performed gets canceled and you footstool.

leaf's proposal is just the game punishing you for attempting to footstool if you dont have any more jumps to cover you in case you screw up

I think I would rather have this two button press idea instead. Honestly I THINK I would be less inclined to use the footstool with that added risk factor.

The whole reason for changing the footstool in the first place was to not make it happen accidentally, not add this risk factor. Or am I wrong on this?

EDIT: posted at the same time as kupo...

 

[cookieM0Nster]

The game is boring when everything is safe

Agreed. Fighting games should be exciting. Which Brawl+ is, thank God.

 

[Magus420]

The whole reason for changing the footstool in the first place was to not make it happen accidentally, not add this risk factor.

^^

 

[leafgreen386]

I think I would rather have this two button press idea instead. Honestly I THINK I would be less inclined to use the footstool with that added risk factor.

The whole reason for changing the footstool in the first place was to not make it happen accidentally, not add this risk factor. Or am I wrong on this?

EDIT: posted at the same time as kupo...

Although normally I might concede that the risk factor is unintended, since this will be implemented simultaneously with the added benefit of footstool cancels, I believe it will be justified.

 

[Magus420]

It probably wouldn't be any more difficult to just make the first 3 frames of airdodges cancelable into midair jumps, and only have footstools able to occur if the jump is coming from out of the airdodge animation.

 

[iLink]

Although normally I might concede that the risk factor is unintended, since this will be implemented simultaneously with the added benefit of footstool cancels, I believe it will be justified.

Sorry this might just be me misunderstanding again but what benefit is there from footstool canceling if you would normally not be put in a position to footstool when you normally air dodge, especially the first frames of the animation?

EDIT: I would be ok with what Magus mentioned. I just don't think it's a good idea to add the risk factor when IMO I don't think the effort and risk is worth the footstool when you have other options. It would make footstools rarely used if at all.

 

[cAm8ooo]

It probably wouldn't be any more difficult to just make the first 3 frames of airdodges cancelable into midair jumps, and only have footstools able to occur if the jump is coming from out of the airdodge animation.

The best idea i believe.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sorry this might just be me misunderstanding again but what benefit is there from footstool canceling if you would normally not be put in a position to footstool when you normally air dodge, especially the first frames of the animation?

Uh.... You will ALWAYS be in a position to airdodge if you can footstool, which was the point of the work around. This isn't about changing how airdodges work, normal airdodging will still function the same way. Eliminating ACCIDENTAL footstools is the target here <_<

Oh...and if you footstool...you can footstool cancel. So the mechanic in itself is getting a buff and leaf thought the added risk would be a good counterbalance (I don't agree because of how situational footstools are in the first place though, it's easy to see his train of thought.)

Also, Magus when are you gonna get your gRAPE name?

 

[iLink]

Uh.... You will ALWAYS be in a position to airdodge if you can footstool, which was the point of the work around. This isn't about changing how airdodges work, normal airdodging will still function the same way. Eliminating ACCIDENTAL footstools is the target here <_<

Oh...and if you footstool...you can footstool cancel. So the mechanic in itself is getting a buff and leaf thought the added risk would be a good counterbalance (I don't agree because of how situational footstools are in the first place though, it's easy to see his train of thought.)

Also, Magus when are you gonna get your gRAPE name?

I don't think you understood my post, or I'm not understanding how the term footstool cancel is being used. Isn't footstool canceling just canceling the first frames of an air dodge with a footstool? If so, how do you footstool cancel a footstool?

EDIT: Nevermind... I need some sleep lol, I read your post wrong.

Ok now I'm not understanding how the mechanic is being buffed. It just seems like an alternate way to footstool. Yes I know you can always air dodge if you have the option to footstool but I'm saying you would normally not be in that situation in a real match, which was why I didn't understand how it was being buffed.

 

[Hyrus]

[Impractical]
[Evidence]

Quoting myself here, since I think that I have two valid points that a lot of people skipped.

*links*

Sorry that most of the footstools that you see are on accident, but I go for footstools on a regular basis as a Sonic player (since he has guaranteed combos into and FROM it, and even occasionally go for it while recovering. The fact that footstool's implementation makes it possible to do them accidentally does not automatically mean that they have no possible competitive use. It needs to be reworked to be more controllable yes, but the actual mechanic is perfectly fine.

Firstly, I think that all but one of your posted videos are from vBrawl, where everything is a lot s l o w e r. Secondly, I thought I was very specific that I wanted links to competitive Brawl+ matches w/ intentional footstooling... of which none of those links are.

Now, you say that as Sonic, you go for footstools. That's great to hear, since I use characters that lack the mobility to apply dynamic air pressure. But as much as i'd like to take everyone's word as unbiased truth, i'm a skeptic. Videos showing them used in competitive B+ matches would prove, without doubt, that footstools are a solid technique that can be applied in high level play. But as it currently stands, I do not see them happen in B+ due to the higher risk and conditional reward over more safe approaches.

That's why I want to see it used in a real time match w/ high level players.

(airdodge canceled footstool) It should solve the input problem without forcing players to assign a new "footstool" button like they would've had to do with my old idea for it.

While that would certainly clean up accidental footstooling, it doesn't address my position that the technique is generally impractical and unsafe in high level play. Again, I don't play the kinds of characters whom would seemingly most benefit from footstooling, which is why I want to see evidence of their real time use. It's just that, as it stands, I never see them used purposely by anyone, leading me to suspect that things look better on paper than in actual play and that most support from them are just theories or very character explicit.

 

[cAm8ooo]

As kirby I use footstools in a large portion of my games. D-air >footstool is a standard kirby combo that works well and is intentional on my part. As skeptic as you may be, some people and some characters do use footstools purposely.

 

[Sagen du Smash]

Sonic has IASA frames on his HA and SpinDash?! AWESOME!!!!!

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

As kirby I use footstools in a large portion of my games. D-air >footstool is a standard kirby combo that works well and is intentional on my part. As skeptic as you may be, some people and some characters do use footstools purposely.

im pretty sure you dair>footstool because you dair>jump and footstool occurs. its just icing on the cake. semen flavored icing.

 

[GHNeko]

Or...he could actually be aiming to footstool?

Nah. No one footstools on purpose. I can't believe I fathomed the thought.

 

[bobson]

It's definitely possible, but I do not know of any program that can convert videos back to the format Nintendo uses for videos.

Virtual Dub can convert most formats into sequential JPGs which can then be compiled into THPs (the movie format for Wii games) with thpconv from the Wii SDK. I've replaced the opening movie and screwed around with some of the SSE movies using this.

Relevant: I don't see what the problem is with accidental footstools anyway. Should we remap smash attacks so people stop accidentally using smashes when they wanted to use tilts?

 

[GHNeko]

Virtual Dub can convert most formats into sequential JPGs which can then be compiled into THPs (the movie format for Wii games) with thpconv from the Wii SDK. I've replaced the opening movie and screwed around with some of the SSE movies using this.

Soooooo....

Brawl+ Media/Texture team go?

 

[Alphatron]

You replaced the opening movie? Vids please? And ISO or SD card?

And I laugh at people saying the added risk to footstooling is silly, when the idea of footstooling is silly in the first place, coupled with the fact that offstage edgeguarding has risks!

What kind of moron Bowser jumps DOWN offstage in an attempt to edgeguard, let alone footstool? Plus, you guys are forgetting that to footstool means to throw spacing out the window altogether.

 

[camelot]

Footstools were just a bad idea altogether, I think.

Not to mention invisible footstools, which are really freakin' annoying.

 

[leafgreen386]

I don't think you understood my post, or I'm not understanding how the term footstool cancel is being used. Isn't footstool canceling just canceling the first frames of an air dodge with a footstool? If so, how do you footstool cancel a footstool?

EDIT: Nevermind... I need some sleep lol, I read your post wrong.

Ok now I'm not understanding how the mechanic is being buffed. It just seems like an alternate way to footstool. Yes I know you can always air dodge if you have the option to footstool but I'm saying you would normally not be in that situation in a real match, which was why I didn't understand how it was being buffed.

...too much canceling going on in this discussion.

Terms!

Footstool - you all know what a footstool does, but I want to change the input so that it can only be performed by canceling the opening frames of an airdodge
Footstool cancel - A technique shanus is working on adding to footstools, where you can actually cancel your upward momentum from them with a specific button input and timing, to allow more setups from them

 

[MK26]

i still think the double-tap is the best idea...

what happens if you dont have any more jumps to cancel the ad, and your failed fs results in 30-40 frames of lag?

 

[SketchHurricane]

And I laugh at people saying the added risk to footstooling is silly, when the idea of footstooling is silly in the first place, coupled with the fact that offstage edgeguarding has risks!

What kind of moron Bowser jumps DOWN offstage in an attempt to edgeguard, let alone footstool? Plus, you guys are forgetting that to footstool means to throw spacing out the window altogether.

So footstooling has an inherit risk, and thus adding more is unecessary? If that's your point, I agree completely.

However, don't write off footstooling as silly altogether just because it's an unconventional approach. You're forgetting about grounded footstooling - it's not just an edgeguarding option after all.

At it's core, footstooling is disabling your opponent with a close range maneuver. It's a legit concept, not silly at all. Like you said, it's already a big risk since you are essentially opening yourself up in an attempt to disable the enemy, but's it's no different than predicting an airdodge by delaying an attack - in both cases you are opening yourself up in order to punish. You'd be stupid to go for a footstool unless you predict that the opponent will hesitate, or take a risk of their own, otherwise your just going to get hit out of an empty jump.

 

[SketchHurricane]

what happens if you dont have any more jumps to cancel the ad, and your failed fs results in 30-40 frames of lag?

That would obviously be your own fault for not paying attention to your own jumps.

But all in all, I don't think footstool needs added risk, for the reasons above.

No one should ever get foostooled on the ground unless they complete screw up their spacing or get read like a book.

No one should ever get footstooled in the air unless they are in hitstun (FS combo) or they get read like a book.

If anything, footstools, when made completely intentional as we aim, should carry a huge reward if landed, since they are already risky and have virtually no guaranteed setups aside from a handful of situational combos. I don't think you should be able to tech them or meteor cancel them. You should be screwed if you get footstooled. We should even change the name to footschooled.