Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[cookieM0Nster]

Wowww Brawl+ is getting dumber and dumber every day...

How so? They are making progress on issues that need to be discussed.

 

[kupo15]

To answer your last question, no. I just think 30-40 frames of lag, no matter how fast you're traveling, is too much for a footstool.

Its understandable seeing how you don't want any risks involved in performing a footstool yet you expect to get a big reward.

Not to mention reasons 1 and 2 are the exact same.

you don't say... >_>

they already thought of that...allowing the startup of an ad to be canceled into any kind of jump, and only allowing an fs through this cancel. However, it doesnt take into account trying to fs if you dont have any jumps left.

You can still fs regardless if you are out

Granted, that situation wont happen o of jumps
often, but it's generally the time where you cant afford to have 30-40 frames of lag to worry about if you miss.

So what? Seriously, if you get overzealous, there is a huge risk involved. The reward for being overzealous is massive but the risk is much higher. It was this way in Melee as well. If you don't want to risk the AD lag without any jumps, then don't. But if you want to be overzealous, then expect that the risk will be higher. Stop trying to make this out to be something that is unfair when it's not. You just don't like the idea because you want to have massive rewards for virtually no risk which is not competitive.

EDIT: rereading what you said, that makes sense. But i still think its too much work to make footstools "competitive".

I agree. Lets just remove it

What's wrong with the double-tap jump to footstool idea? It's a much more simple and intuitive input for it than any of the other suggestions, if it must be changed.

I guess

And I feel I have to repeat: There is only one possible situation where you can footstool, when you are right overtop of someone and press jump.

Tell me why its ok that I am forced to footstool at this moment instead of double jump if I wanted too.

 

[WheelOfFish]

If you get footstooled, don't blame the mechanic, blame yourself for not being aware of your positioning and taking the proper steps to avoid it, which is really not that difficult.

Or blame your character for being massive and having a crappy recovery and then switch to a smaller target with a great recovery that can easily FS.

Wait a second...

 

[jokey665]

Tell me why its ok that I am forced to footstool at this moment instead of double jump if I wanted too.

Because you put yourself in a position where your only jump-related option is a footstool. Or your opponent put you there. Either avoid the situation or start getting used to footstools.

 

[leafgreen386]

Can I just say this is getting really stupid? Who cares how much one player or the other "deserved" the footstool. Having multiple actions tied to the same input that vary depending on your spacing with your opponent is just plain poor game design. You can always use a tilt or smash on the ground out of an idle animation, regardless of where your opponent is. You can always dash. You can always grab. You can always aerial if you're off the ground. You can always sh or fj from the ground... but you cannot always DJ when you're in the air, and it's because of footstooling. It's a sloppy mechanic and that's why it should be fixed.

edit:

Oh and about this "accident" thing: Back in '01 and '02 (early Melee), I'm willing to bet that 90%+ of wavedashing was done by accident, because even the most competitive players didn't fully understand the mechanic. Do you think they should've removed it from the game (assuming they had the power) because they didn't like the "random" sliding they sometimes got when airdodging near the ground? No, they practiced it instead and learned to use it to their advantage.

That doesn't have anything to do with this. If anything , that example supports the pro-change side, actually. You can choose which direction you airdodge in, so if you don't want to collide with the ground, then don't AD down when near it. Simple. There is no such method to not footstool, though, when you're in range to.

 

[bobson]

Can I just say this is getting really stupid? Who cares how much one player or the other "deserved" the footstool. Having multiple actions tied to the same input that vary depending on your spacing with your opponent is just plain poor game design. You can always use a tilt or smash on the ground out of an idle animation, regardless of where your opponent is. You can always dash. You can always grab. You can always aerial if you're off the ground. You can always sh or fj from the ground... but you cannot always DJ when you're in the air, and it's because of footstooling. It's a sloppy mechanic and that's why it should be fixed.

Multiple actions per input tied to spacing is perfectly fine. Why wouldn't it be?
All you said was "it's bad because it's bad, here are a bunch of things that don't work like that."

 

[shanus]

What's wrong with the double-tap jump to footstool idea? It's a much more simple and intuitive input for it than any of the other suggestions, if it must be changed.

And I feel I have to repeat: There is only one possible situation where you can footstool, when you are right overtop of someone and press jump. If you don't have the awareness or experience to know that a footstool will occur in that situation, well that sucks for you, but enough of this "accidental" and "random" bull****. It's a poor excuse.

Oh no, I got tippered by Marth! He was just going for a regular fsmash but he was standing in the wrong spot so he accidentally tippered me! Plz make it so you have to hit A+B+C-stick+sidetaunt to do tippers so I don't get accidentally tippered all the time, kthx!

There are plenty of accidental "fake" footstools when ledgehogging and edgeguarding. That isn't a lack of knowledge, its a poor input design.

With that said, remapping footstools to its own button would still require its own code, or a code to disable the current inputs. However, remapping it still seems fairly complicated through the use of PSA, so overall we would need a programmer in here to perform the magic.

 

[CloneHat]

Footstools. They were implemented as a gimmick, a joke, by Sakurai himself.

I personally don't think they should be in the game; they let characters without a spike spike, and just present the problem of having to fix them.

Would the game change if we took them out? Yoshi can recover. DK can't do a ridiculously situational combo. That's about it. Also, unlike early wavedashing, as JC mentioned a while back, we actually have a complete grasp of what's going on, so it's not a problem of a lack of knowledge.

 

[bobson]

There are plenty of accidental "fake" footstools when ledgehogging and edgeguarding. That isn't a lack of knowledge, its a poor input design.

An accidental "fake" footstool will do almost exactly the same thing as a normal double jump unless you hold down the button to get a larger jump (and as such imply it was either intentional or you reacted fast enough to take advantage of it). I'd say that's good input design.

 

[leafgreen386]

Multiple actions per input tied to spacing is perfectly fine. Why wouldn't it be?
All you said was "it's bad because it's bad, here are a bunch of things that don't work like that."

Do you have any concept of game design? At all? This breaks one of the fundamentals - don't take away control from the player unnecessarily. Hitstun would be an example of a good reason to take away control from the player (which apparently sakurai decided to blow off with brawl, but that's beside the point). Whether you're on the ground? In the air? On the ledge? All good reasons to take away some control from the player (you obviously shouldn't be able to aerial if you haven't left the ground yet). However, being in a specific spacing relative to your opponent when in any other spacing you're able to perform an action is not a reason to take away control from the player, barring them from performing that tactic and forcing them to use another action if they try using the input that would normally result in the original action in every other spacing. Of course, having to be within a specific spacing for an action to be effective is perfectly legit (see: every attack in the game), but the spacing itself should not bar you from using an action. If I want to spam marth's dsmash just outside of the range it will hit my opponent, I can do that. It won't help me any, and will actually probably end up getting me punished, but I can perform it whenever I want as long as I'm in an idle state.

Currently, you're able to DJ whenever you're in the air, not directly over your opponent's head, and have at least one jump left. You're able to footstool whenever you're in the air and over your opponent's head. If you have no jumps left, you're technically able to footstool anywhere in the air, but it won't do anything if the foe is not in range.

What you should be able to do is to perform a DJ anytime you're in the air and have at least one jump left, regardless of if you're in the spacing for a footstool or not. You should also be able to footstool anytime, regardless of if you have any jumps left, but it will only do anything if you're in range of your opponent.

An accidental "fake" footstool will do almost exactly the same thing as a normal double jump unless you hold down the button to get a larger jump (and as such imply it was either intentional or you reacted fast enough to take advantage of it). I'd say that's good input design.

You don't have to hold the button for very long to get the jump, and if you're just trying to go straight up, it's very easy to hold it down long enough (or hold the stick up) to perform the higher footstool. It's poor input design, and I don't know why you keep insisting that it isn't.

 

[stingers]

remapping footstools to their own button? lol what button would you give them

edit: footstools are pretty clearly supposed to be a universal buff for edgeguarding, since edgeguarding in brawl is p. bad

not enough people use it for that purpose though because it's dangerous...unless it's really easy to land in which case many people will go for it (marths go for footstool dairs all the time for example)

is footstooling really needed in b+, with no more auto ledge cling and aerial momentum to help characters get offstage for edgeguarding? not really...

if you want to keep it in, just leave it exactly how it is.

 

[iLink]

Can I just say this is getting really stupid? Who cares how much one player or the other "deserved" the footstool. Having multiple actions tied to the same input that vary depending on your spacing with your opponent is just plain poor game design. You can always use a tilt or smash on the ground out of an idle animation, regardless of where your opponent is. You can always dash. You can always grab. You can always aerial if you're off the ground. You can always sh or fj from the ground... but you cannot always DJ when you're in the air, and it's because of footstooling. It's a sloppy mechanic and that's why it should be fixed.

Lucario's side-b says hi

Sorry I just wanted to say that XD

EDIT:

@stingers: You know... the taunt buttons don't do anything in the air... not sure if that would be possible though.

 

[bobson]

Do you have any concept of game design? At all? This breaks one of the fundamentals - don't take away control from the player unnecessarily.

You keep referring to footstooling instead of double jumping as if something is lost somehow; it isn't. A player double jumps to propel themself into the air. A footstool propels the player into the air. If a player double jumps but instead footstools, they are still propelled into the air as if they had double jumped; nothing has changed except they have gained the advantage of possibly having gimped their opponent and still having their double jump. It's like making an argument that the player should always be able to miss a grab even when the opponent is in grab range, and if they want to grapple their opponent, they should have to hold B or something when grabbing so that the option to purposely miss a grab is always there.

The player isn't losing any control and the game is not negatively affected by the fact that you will footstool instead of double jump if you jump while above your opponent's head. There is no gaming commandment that says thou shalt be able to double jump regardless of thy spacing with thy opponent. You're trying to alter a mechanic that has no reason to be altered.

Try playing Kirby Air Ride sometime; it'll blow your mind.

You don't have to hold the button for very long to get the jump, and if you're just trying to go straight up, it's very easy to hold it down long enough (or hold the stick up) to perform the higher footstool. It's poor input design, and I don't know why you keep insisting that it isn't.

I've never gotten a full footstool jump by accident. Maybe you hold buttons down too long.

 

[stingers]

people brought up taunt for footstool FOREVER ago...it's a horrible idea.

oh, it's a bad idea because the d-pad is in a really awkward position...lol

 

[iLink]

Hmm... that's true. Can we do multiple inputs for an action like Y+R but still get a regular jump if you miss? Or are we adamant on making it riskier to do?

 

[stingers]

we? do you mean leafgreen?

 

[metaXzero]

people brought up taunt for footstool FOREVER ago...it's a horrible idea.

oh, it's a bad idea because the d-pad is in a really awkward position...lol

How is it awkard? Don't see how hard it is to move your thumb down a bit.

 

[shanus]

Awkward input for an awkward move!

Unless someone figures out how to disable the classic footstool input it doesnt matter anyway

 

[Dark Sonic]

A footstool propels the player into the air. If a player double jumps but instead footstools, they are still propelled into the air as if they had double jumped; nothing has changed except they have gained the advantage of possibly having gimped their opponent and still having their double jump.

Footstools send you higher than double jumps <_<. There are in fact instances when I want to double jump and not footstool (for instance, in order to avoid a uair and then have time to retaliate). Double jumping when right over your opponent can also be used as a BAIT for characters that have particularly useful uptilts (i.e., baiting Falco to uptilt and then going through it with a disjointed dair), and it would be nice to have the option of double jumping and not footstooling.

And don't forget that you have a much shorter window for getting the short footstool if your opponent is in an unfootstoolable animation when you do it (as in, the one where you just bounce up while they continue doing whatever they were doing). That really sucks when the intention was to use the spacing to bait an attack and just barely jump out of range and punish it <_<. Guess I shouldn't have that baiting option because you'd rather double jumping be arbitrarily taken away.

 

[GHNeko]

How is it awkard? Don't see how hard it is to move your thumb down a bit.

****ty D-pad is ****ty. Plus it's unorthodox as it is. :/

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Normally, I would say in this situation, "WHY THE ******* ARE WE TALKING ABOUT FOOTSTOOLS AGAIN?"

But I see that some people have made good points, so I'll say this:

I personally think that they are fine as they are. I mean, if you want to intentionally footstool someone, just get your correct spacing, and jump at the right time.

You guys DO realize that footstools actually have tactical use besides situational combos, right?


Maybe it's just my love of footstools talking. <3

 

[GHNeko]

Okay. We've already established that guy.

What's the main issue is how easy it is to footstool without really having "OKAY LETS FOOTSTOOL THEM LULZ" go through your head a nice majority of the time.

Footstools on purpose are great, when you intend to and we want to make it so that majority of the footstools are done on purpose and have use other than the seldom tactic that's already situational for a small portion of characters against specific characters are specific places.

You see where I'm going?

 

[stingers]

right but what's the point

why does it matter

 

[GHNeko]

idk. I mean I do my footstools on purpose and a super majority of my footstools are on purpose. :/

but w/e

 

[kupo15]

Because you put yourself in a position where your only jump-related option is a footstool. Or your opponent put you there. Either avoid the situation or start getting used to footstools.

You missed my question completely. I am not asking why does happen, I am asking why is it OK that I am arbitrarily forced by the game to not be able to DJ above someone's head? Why is it OK that I am NOT allowed to CHOOSE if I want a FS or a DJ.

Can I just say this is getting really stupid? Who cares how much one player or the other "deserved" the footstool. Having multiple actions tied to the same input that vary depending on your spacing with your opponent is just plain poor game design. You can always use a tilt or smash on the ground out of an idle animation, regardless of where your opponent is. You can always dash. You can always grab. You can always aerial if you're off the ground. You can always sh or fj from the ground... but you cannot always DJ when you're in the air, and it's because of footstooling. It's a sloppy mechanic and that's why it should be fixed.
.

QFT

Multiple actions per input tied to spacing is perfectly fine. Why wouldn't it be?

No its not. That would be like saying that "The A button performs Jabs, ftilts, Fsmash and grabs. You grab if you are right next to them, you jab only if you are slightly outside grab range but inside tilt range, you tilt only if you are slightly outside jabs but inside smash range, and you smash only if you are slightly outside tilts."

This is a blown up example of the problem you have with footstools. You are a loss of control in what you can do because all the actions are not distinguishable by a separate button and your spacing determines what action your character does. God forbid that you can choose what you want to do.

oh, it's a bad idea because the d-pad is in a really awkward position...lol

Map taunt to x(y). Problem solved

EDIT

I personally think that they are fine as they are. I mean, if you want to intentionally footstool someone, just get your correct spacing, and jump at the right time.

And what happens if you don't want to FS someone but instead just want to DJ above someones head because that is the only way to acquire perfect spacing to counter a tactic from an opponent. What then?

You guys DO realize that footstools actually have tactical use besides situational combos, right?

We do but do you realize how arbitrarily limiting of control the current implementation of FS are?

The Pro FS side is being VERY Ignorant to the Anti FS side. If you don't see this then you are blind

 

[leafgreen386]

You keep referring to footstooling instead of double jumping as if something is lost somehow; it isn't. A player double jumps to propel themself into the air. A footstool propels the player into the air. If a player double jumps but instead footstools, they are still propelled into the air as if they had double jumped; nothing has changed except they have gained the advantage of possibly having gimped their opponent and still having their double jump. It's like making an argument that the player should always be able to miss a grab even when the opponent is in grab range, and if they want to grapple their opponent, they should have to hold B or something when grabbing so that the option to purposely miss a grab is always there.

The player isn't losing any control and the game is not negatively affected by the fact that you will footstool instead of double jump if you jump while above your opponent's head. There is no gaming commandment that says thou shalt be able to double jump regardless of thy spacing with thy opponent.

You choose to use the grab. It's effective within a certain spacing. You're in that spacing. It grabs. Simple as that. You choose to DJ... you can't because you're in the spacing where a footstool is effective, and you footstool instead. Footstools can be harmful to the player that performed it. Not outright, but it can cause you to miss a kill opportunity on some characters with good recoveries, due to the footstool creating more distance between you and your opponent than a DJ would've, thus making you miss your aerial. And if you had simply dropped the aerial on your opponent without jumping first, you would've fallen too far to recover. That's how it is for some characters. You don't always want to footstool. That line of thinking is probably the reason it was implemented so horribly to begin with.

You're trying to alter a mechanic that has no reason to be altered.

Says who?

Try playing Kirby Air Ride sometime; it'll blow your mind.

1) I've played it.
2) What does this have to do with anything?

I've never gotten a full footstool jump by accident. Maybe you hold buttons down too long.

I use the control stick to DJ. If I just want to go straight up, I'll usually continue to hold it as I jump. Although even the half footstool is enough to screw you up if you didn't want it.

Footstools send you higher than double jumps <_<. There are in fact instances when I want to double jump and not footstool (for instance, in order to avoid a uair and then have time to retaliate). Double jumping when right over your opponent can also be used as a BAIT for characters that have particularly useful uptilts (i.e., baiting Falco to uptilt and then going through it with a disjointed dair), and it would be nice to have the option of double jumping and not footstooling.

And don't forget that you have a much shorter window for getting the short footstool if your opponent is in an unfootstoolable animation when you do it (as in, the one where you just bounce up while they continue doing whatever they were doing). That really sucks when the intention was to use the spacing to bait an attack and just barely jump out of range and punish it <_<. Guess I shouldn't have that baiting option because you'd rather double jumping be arbitrarily taken away.

QFT.

 

[stingers]

Map taunt to x(y). Problem solved

Please tell me you're not really that dumb...

Leaf, make it so you can attack DIRECTLY out of a footstool. Your little spacing problem is solved.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

wouldn't that make footstools useless then, if you could basically instantaneously cancel them like in melee?


and please don't map it to x or y. I use y to jump and x to grab.

 

[stingers]

if you could basically instantaneously cancel them like in melee?

what are you talking about?

anyways I'm 99% sure you can already attack instantly out of a footstool. i mean look at grounded footstool combos with peach and DK and stuff. footstool to instant float with peach, footstool to instant side B with DK, etc.

any "spacing advantage" from double jumping instead of footstooling is moot since a footstool puts the enemy into some sort of stun (you can't tech it (in vbrawl anyway) so it's not normal hitstun) and you can just get your spike or whatever you wanted instantly.

anyone who's whining about the footstool mechanic doesn't know how to use them properly...it's really sad to see people who are supposed to be knowledgeable enough about the game to be in charge of a huge hacking project complaining about something so innocent

edit: i can count the number of times on one hand that i was close enough to someones head that I tried to double jump JUST out of range of someones move in the air, then punish them while falling and it actually would've worked. 99% of characters would be able to up-b away while you're going back down to hit them, except like...ROB, Lucario, and Ness? Everyone else has a hitbox (except Pit, who has a windbox), Ness only doesn't work cuz he'd kill himself with his Up-B if you were that close.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

instantaneously cancel meteors in melee.

if the opponent could attack right out of a footstool, it would act similarly to melee meteor cancels.

aka making foostools useless.

OH I thought you meant the footstooled being able to attack right away. X(

but wouldn't instant recovery from a footstool jump make it so you can easily spike or meteor someone right after you footstooled them?

 

[stingers]

...no, the footstooler can attack right out of a footstool. not the footstoolee.

 

[Dark Sonic]

post

You don't seem to understand just WHY those characters can combo directly out of a footstool while others can't. Those characters have MOMENTUM STOPPING OPTIONS. Peach's float stops her upwards momentum. DK's side B stops his upwards momentum. Marth's dair is just fast enough to hit them anyway.

Now, let's say I'm IKE, and NOT one of these characters that can mitigate any disadvantages they get for footstooling. I might actually want to NOT footstool, and instead double jump. Why? Because my double jump is shorter than my footstool jump. Ike can't combo out of a footstool (there are many characters who can't), but jumping over an attack and fast falling into a dair is a breeze (and is also a very deadly setup for Ike. It combos into KILL MOVES). Wouldn't it be nice if I got to choose between footstooling and not footstooling in the same stituation?

Also, footstooling doesn't put them into any stun if they're performing an action (endlag/startup lag of an attack, coming out of a spotdodge/roll, ect), you just get the unwanted extra height. Considering I'm talking about baiting and punishing an attack....NO THEY WON'T BE PUT IN STUN!

I'm not talking about off the stage. I'm not talking about actually footstooling. I'm talking about ON the stage, and how the option of double jumping is just taken away for no real reason. I know how to use footstools, but it would be BETTER if I had the option to NOT footstool if I didn't want to. Saying "well, don't put yourself in a position where you'd get a footstool then" is basically denying me a valid baiting option you don't like me having multiple options for the same situation <_<.

 

[kupo15]

Please tell me you're not really that dumb...

.

Come again? There is a code where you can map anything anywhere. If you could assign FS to be tied to taunt instead of jump, then you can map taunt (which is also FS) to anyplace you feel comfortable

anyone who's whining about the footstool mechanic doesn't know how to use them properly...it's really sad to see people who are supposed to be knowledgeable enough about the game to be in charge of a huge hacking project complaining about something so innocent
.

And you are clearly being ignorant right now to what the "Change FS" side is talking about

I'm not talking about off the stage. I'm not talking about actually footstooling. I'm talking about ON the stage, and how the option of double jumping is just taken away for no real reason. I know how to use footstools, but it would be BETTER if I had the option to NOT footstool if I didn't want to. Saying "well, don't put yourself in a position where you'd get a footstool then" is basically denying me a valid baiting option you don't like me having multiple options for the same situation <_<.

If this isn't clear enough for the "Keep FSs as is" side, then idk what is. I have yet to see you guys acknowledge this point that keeps getting brought up.

 

[iLink]

but wouldn't instant recovery from a footstool jump make it so you can easily spike or meteor someone right after you footstooled them?

You can already do that with Marth and Tlink's dair.

 

[stingers]

WOAH DK'S MOMENTUM IS STOPPED AFTER USING A SIDE B OUT OF A FOOTSTOOL I HAD NO IDEA

really what a silly thing to say

but jumping over an attack and fast falling into a dair is a breeze

If you're EVER in a situation as Ike where you're level with your opponent and want to DJ over him to hit him with a Dair, first off your Dair will most likely end up sourspotting because the Tip doesn't spike. (though it does have a continuous hitbox so you'll probably end up hitting them!) Unless your opponent is moving up as well, but in that case you won't footstool them either way so...that doesn't matter. Oh, and if you're in the EXACT right position in which you're both moving up and you land the footstool anyway, congrats, odds are you just took their double jump away and gimped them without needing to Dair! Woo!

I'm not talking about off the stage. I'm not talking about actually footstooling. I'm talking about ON the stage, and how the option of double jumping is just taken away for no real reason. I know how to use footstools, but it would be BETTER if I had the option to NOT footstool if I didn't want to. Saying "well, don't put yourself in a position where you'd get a footstool then" is basically denying me a valid baiting option.

If you accidentally footstool someone while trying to bait them to jump and Uair/Utilt/whatever, all you have to do is shorthop the footstool instead of a fulljump footstool. Woo, you can still punish...congrats.

Come again? There is a code where you can map anything anywhere. If you could assign FS to be tied to taunt instead of jump, then you can map taunt (which is also FS) to anyplace you feel comfortable

Do you really think that everyone can just give up the utility of their X/Y buttons to put Taunt on there? Like seriously?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

also, about how kupo said map one of x or y to taunt and then map footstools to taunts. what if I'm already using one of them for something different? I use z for attack and x for grab for easier DACUS.

 

[leafgreen386]

We've been over assigning it to taunt, already. It was my idea, and even I recognize that it has flaws. If a player already utilizes every button on their controller, then they could not assign the footstool button to a more convenient place than... the dpad, which is horribly awkward to reach to in the middle of the fight, as it requires you to give up using the control stick for a moment, meaning you cannot further control your horizontal spacing as you go for the footstool.

However, making the opening frames of an airdodge cancelable with a footstool (and if a foe isn't there, just cancel it into your idle falling position) and removing the ability to footstool with just jump would give control to the player on when they want to footstool or DJ, while also keeping it accessible.

 

[stingers]

Which also has its own flaws, which I already went over, and there's nothing to warrant this change other then the fact you guys aren't very good at spacing yourselves.

Like, it's possible to bait moves without being in footstool range, and even if you **** up and get in footstool range, it's possible to shorthop the footstool.

This whole debate is silly, stop being so gung-ho about changing entire game mechanics and just let them be.

 

[Dark Sonic]

WOAH DK'S MOMENTUM IS STOPPED AFTER USING A SIDE B OUT OF A FOOTSTOOL I HAD NO IDEA

DON'T USE BAD EXAMPLES! You stated that you could just combo out of the footstool and I stated that not all characters can do that, therefore your point is invalid.

Learn2debate.

If you're EVER in a situation as Ike where you're level with your opponent and want to DJ over him to hit him with a Dair, first off your Dair will most likely end up sourspotting because the Tip doesn't spike.

Secondly, LEARN2SPACE. I never said I was going to tip them with the dair. You double jump over the attack, and then FAST FALL DAIR them in their end lag. Very simple.

(though it does have a continuous hitbox so you'll probably end up hitting them!)

Yeah, if my spacing was bad I'd hit them with the sourhit. Now let's assume that we're going for something practical instead of messing up shall we?

Unless your opponent is moving up as well, but in that case you won't footstool them either way so...that doesn't matter. Oh, and if you're in the EXACT right position in which you're both moving up and you land the footstool anyway, congrats, odds are you just took their double jump away and gimped them without needing to Dair! Woo!

I never once said I was going for this off the stage. In fact, I specifically stated in the next paragraph that this scenario was for ON THE STAGE. Reading comprehension helps <_<

If you accidentally footstool someone while trying to bait them to jump and Uair/Utilt/whatever, all you have to do is shorthop the footstool instead of a fulljump footstool. Woo, you can still punish...congrats.

Ike's shorthop footstool is STILL higher than his double jump and can still cause me to miss my punishment opportunity. The point is, why shouldn't I just have the option of double jumping there instead? Why shouldn't I just be able to pick between the two and go with the one that's more advantageous? THAT's why footstools should be reworked, so that the player has more options.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Which also has its own flaws, which I already went over, and there's nothing to warrant this change other then the fact you guys aren't very good at spacing yourselves.

Like, it's possible to bait moves without being in footstool range, and even if you **** up and get in footstool range, it's possible to shorthop the footstool.

This whole debate is silly, stop being so gung-ho about changing entire game mechanics and just let them be.

Actually...that most recent suggestion (having airdodges be cancelable into a footstool, but just cancel into a normal fall state if there is no one in range to footstool) has pretty much no flaws other than it being a little more awkward at first because of the extra button press. With that footstools and regular double jumps would have seperate inputs, with no downside to attempting a footstool and missing (the previous counterpoint was that you'd be stuck airdodging...but now you're not <_<)