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[stingers]

in order to try and cut down on the multi quote arguments, i'll just respond to the main thing:

The point is, why shouldn't I just have the option of double jumping there instead?

well, because you ****ed up. plain and simple.

wait, do you really think the airdodge idea has no flaws?

 

[CountKaiser]

Awkward input for an awkward move!

Unless someone figures out how to disable the classic footstool input it doesnt matter anyway

Can't you switch the action id from FS to DJ using CAM?

 

[Dark Sonic]

well, because you ****ed up. plain and simple.

The only reason that you say that it's a mistake is because of the method in which footstools were originally implemented. Had them been implemented in the manner that Leaf is describing, it would've been a legitimate tactic and been praised <_<

wait, do you really think the airdodge idea has no flaws?

Re-read it, 'cause it's been edited.

1. The first couple of frames are cancelable into a footstool (makes it so that you can choose to either footstool or double jump)
2. If there is no-one to be footstooled then the airdodge cancels into a normal fall state (this ensures that missing a footstool has no real disadvantages, just like before)

the only flaw is that it's another button press that people would have to get used to.

 

[stingers]

I wonder how many logical fallacies are in that post

 

[CountKaiser]

Instead of wondering, why don't you point them out and argue said fallacies?

 

[stingers]

that IS something someone on the internet would do

1. The first couple of frames are cancelable into a footstool (makes it so that you can choose to either footstool or double jump)
2. If there is no-one to be footstooled then the airdodge cancels into a normal fall state (this ensures that missing a footstool has no real disadvantages, just like before)

Woah what

That sounds terrible

First off, coding that would be the hugest pain in the *** in the world.
Airdodge spam becomes easier
You can't stay in the airdodge unless someone is close to you? That's just silly.
Most likely you guys would probably end up breaking using a Zair out of airdodge by accident or something (just saying, lol)

 

[CountKaiser]

AD spam?

They lose the invuln frames, and go into a normal fall state. If someone is actually going for a FS and miss, they'd probably be hit out of it easily.

And the AD only cancels if you attempt the FS, not when you normally do an AD.

Coding that does sound awful, though.

 

[stingers]

if someone goes into a normal fall state they can immediately enter another airdodge right? @.@

 

[iLink]

That doesn't sound bad at all actually.

How would air dodge spam be easier exactly?

You can stay in the air dodge if you don't cancel it...

My main gripe was if you missed, the actual air dodge animation would screw you over. If you miss, you still have the ability to position yourself.

EDIT: the actual part of the air dodge you cancel has no invincibility frames so that isn't a problem.

 

[Dark Sonic]

First off, coding that would be the hugest pain in the *** in the world.

Yeah it would

Airdodge spam becomes easier

The initial frames of the airdodge (where the cancel would be) do not have invincibility <_< Spamming this would leave you falling....normally

You can't stay in the airdodge unless someone is close to you? That's just silly.

Normal airdodging isn't affected. Just don't cancel the airdodge?

Most likely you guys would probably end up breaking using a Zair out of airdodge by accident or something (just saying, lol)

Pressing Z and pressing jump are obviously the same thing right? (lolwut?)

 

[stingers]

doesn't airdodge get invincibility from like frame 3? wtf that's like...just adding another button to press then. that's like instead of having to hit jump to footstool, you have to hit R and Jump. What does that accomplish? LOL that sounds JUST like L-Cancelling.

also if I'm reading this right, if you used an airdodge when like nobody was around, then you'd automatically leave the airdodge before it ended. right? would you lose the invuln frames as well?

oh, I can't believe you responded to my Zair thing XFD thats really sad >.>

 

[MK26]

OH GOD THIS IS SO STUPID

Who's tired of theory fighter? Why dont we just wait for somebody to code footstool to a double-tap on jump (which would be exactly the same as "an ad canceling into either an fs or normal fall state" except for the fact that it makes sense)? Then, we test it. Then, we yell at the WBR some more while they make the right decision regarding it all. Then, we let it simmer down for a month or so until someone gets pissed enough by their failures that they complain.

Wait, what?

EDIT: stingers, afaik yuo would have to cancel before the invincibility kicked in. So, basically, you'd have to press the two buttons at teh same time.

I still prefer double-tap.

 

[CountKaiser]

It assigns the action to a macro instead of a button that's already heavily used for something else. It's to cut down on accidental footstools, which I will say now are dumb.

 

[stingers]

Who's tired of theory fighter? Why dont we just wait for somebody to code footstool to a double-tap on jump

That sounds fine, but people dropped that for some reason @.@

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

so....
the problem is that its random and could cost you a stock and people do it on accident too much
in that case, double tap/airdodge>FS/any idea would keep it from being random
any is fine and will fix the problem

pick one and test it out for a nightly and if it seems ok then we'll stick with it

i havent really payed attention much to the thread today so sorry if i missed the real reason why ppl are arguing

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

Why cant we just test everyones idea? i wouldnt have a problem trying other things even if i dislike them because you never know unless you try

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

tru dat
is it possible to put out (very) temporary test nightlys taht alternate around everyone's ideas?

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

then again you gotta admit, if i was a coder, made all that code, then found out the majority prefers the original, id be pretty upset lol

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

yeahh.. but tahts somthing you gotta deal with as a coder
you gotta do it for the good of the project
not your self esteem

but hey, on the bright side, maybe it can be a character specific technique? XD

 

[Dark Sonic]

doesn't airdodge get invincibility from like frame 3? wtf that's like...just adding another button to press then. that's like instead of having to hit jump to footstool, you have to hit R and Jump. What does that accomplish?

It allows you to pick between footstooling and double jumping. That's what it accomplishes.

also if I'm reading this right, if you used an airdodge when like nobody was around, then you'd automatically leave the airdodge before it ended. right? would you lose the invuln frames as well?

No. If you use an airdodge (and cancel it in the first few frames like you would for a footstool cancel), then you'd leave the airdodge pretty much before it started. The airdodge would cancel before you even got to the invincibility frames, and you'd just fall normally.

We could try out the double tap thing though <_< (it however has the problem of taking away your double jump every time you want to footstool, but in the situations where you'd be using footstools it's not that bad anyway. The shield and jump thing is the theoretically superior, though awkward, method)

but hey, on the bright side, maybe it can be a character specific technique? XD

Actually, Shanus's previous work with the double jump cancel is what he's basing his footstool cancel off of. Coding work is rarely wasted.

 

[kupo15]

LOL that sounds JUST like L-Cancelling.

No it doesn't. The argument against L canceling is that there is never a time where you wouldn't want to cancel your lag. For here, you don't always want to FS. Sometimes you would want to DJ instead. Also, you don't always want to cancel your air dodge into a FS attempt. Sometimes you would rather not cancel it and just AD.

If you don't like the idea presented, then maybe you should come up with a better idea to allow the player the choice of a FS or a DJ

EDIT:

If you wanted to do the double tap method, then you need to set up some sort of penalty window that way you can't just mindlessly spam the jump button to get a lucky FS. Maybe something like one FS attempt per jump would be good in addition to the penalty window so you could still FS w/o having jumps

 

[JCaesar]

Stingers please stop making the "no change" side look bad -_-

OH GOD THIS IS SO STUPID

Who's tired of theory fighter? Why dont we just wait for somebody to code footstool to a double-tap on jump (which would be exactly the same as "an ad canceling into either an fs or normal fall state" except for the fact that it makes sense)? Then, we test it. Then, we yell at the WBR some more while they make the right decision regarding it all. Then, we let it simmer down for a month or so until someone gets pissed enough by their failures that they complain.

Wait, what?

EDIT: stingers, afaik yuo would have to cancel before the invincibility kicked in. So, basically, you'd have to press the two buttons at teh same time.

I still prefer double-tap.

This. Though I still believe any change in unnecessary, double-tap jump is a far more intuitive input than shield+jump. An awkward input like that would effectively kill footstooling altogether which I know is the plan, I'm on to you guys j/k

so....
the problem is that its random and could cost you a stock and people do it on accident too much

That isn't it at all. Accidental footstools are due to poor positioning or awareness on the footstoolee's part. The only legitimate argument so far on the "pro-change" side is that you should be able to DJ when in position to footstool. Even though I still think (short) FSing is *always* advantageous over DJing, but I'll keep that to myself :/\

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

That isn't it at all. Accidental footstools are due to poor positioning or awareness on the footstoolee's part. The only legitimate argument so far on the "pro-change" side is that you should be able to DJ when in position to footstool. Even though I still think (short) FSing is *always* advantageous over DJing, but I'll keep that to myself :/\

ok, so put in some of hte ideas like double tap and the air dodge one and any others
one every day or 2

anyone against trying them out?

 

[kupo15]

Shanus. Just an idea to help with your "how do I remove FS" question. The game only allows for 4 FSs in a row before the game disables that feature. So maybe look at how the game disables FSing for the 5th FS attempt so you can assign that to the 1st attempt

 

[MK26]

We could try out the double tap thing though <_< (it however has the problem of taking away your double jump every time you want to footstool, but in the situations where you'd be using footstools it's not that bad anyway. The shield and jump thing is the theoretically superior, though awkward, method)

Simple way around that: if you get a successful fs off the second tap, and you used a jump on the first, you get one (1) jump free. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

If you wanted to do the double tap method, then you need to set up some sort of penalty window that way you can't just mindlessly spam the jump button to get a lucky FS. Maybe something like one FS attempt per jump would be good in addition to the penalty window so you could still FS w/o having jumps

Wouldnt the penalty be...you're mashing jump like a maniac when you could be doing something important like, say, recovering? Also, you're making yourself open to any attack they have. And ideally footstool would only apply every second tap, or you would sorta move out of footstool range while you're i n the process of mashing, or something.

lol JCz is right, it sounds like every post Kupo makes, he's thought up a new way to try to kill the footstool...

EDIT: ninja'd by the man himself. way to try to screw over peach's double footstool, or kirby's super broken footstool dair loop...if you manage to footstool twice (or more ) without touching the ground, you were definitely trying to fs at least one of those times.

 

[stingers]

calm down jcaes.

i get mad when people say stupid things. i can't argue because of it. >.>

 

[kupo15]

Wouldnt the penalty be...you're mashing jump like a maniac when you could be doing something important like, say, recovering? Also, you're making yourself open to any attack they have. And ideally footstool would only apply every second tap, or you would sorta move out of footstool range while you're i n the process of mashing, or something.

When two people are clambering back to the stage, you can definitely pull out multiple attempts during that time

EDIT: ninja'd by the man himself. way to try to screw over peach's double footstool, or kirby's super broken footstool dair loop...if you manage to footstool twice (or more ) without touching the ground, you were definitely trying to fs at least one of those times.

I said per jump which means that you can footstool attempt on every 6 of your jumps if you have that many. I didn't say 1 attempt until you touch back down.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Simple way around that: if you get a successful fs off the second tap, and you used a jump on the first, you get one (1) jump free. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

well...if you can give ganondorf another jump after his down b
you can give them back their jump if they were quick enough to use a fs

i'd trade a double jump for a footstool(higher) anyday xD

 

[WheelOfFish]

All this trouble over a stupid game mechanic that is only slightly more competitive than tripping.

Back to replacing Brawl's start-up and how-to-play videos... ? Please?

 

[MK26]

When two people are clambering back to the stage, you can definitely pull out multiple attempts during that time


I said per jump which means that you can footstool attempt on every 6 of your jumps if you have that many. I didn't say 1 attempt until you touch back down.

so? is that a problem? You must recover.

and as it is now, it doesnt reset if you do a normal jump. not to mention that neither of those scenarios involved a regular jump.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I don't like the double tap idea, I fail to see how pressing two buttons at the same time is counter-intuitive. Double tap doesn't actually stop people from mindless footstools because you can just always hit DJ twice unless you actually want to DJ.

And the whole footstool mechanic is stupid, you can sometimes footstool people from UNDER them so the argument that you should know when a footstool is coming is wrong.

You just press X and R (or whatever you jump and shield buttons are) at (almost) the same time you footstool pretty much, that's all that needs to be said. As long as you press R slightly before X all you would notice is a very small animation if you couldn't actually footstool when you did it. With double tap you effectively wasted your DJ if you miss, making going for Footstools even worse, which they don't need to be.

 

[leafgreen386]

I said per jump which means that you can footstool attempt on every 6 of your jumps if you have that many. I didn't say 1 attempt until you touch back down.

That's actually almost the exact opposite of the way it is now. In general, the more jumps a character has, the less footstool opportunities they have. For instance, jiggs only has 2 footstools per jump, whereas a lot of characters with only one DJ get 4 or 5 footstools.

edit: Matt, that's pretty much my thoughts on the double tap method. I don't understand why someone arguing against changing up footstools like this would be in favour of that and not for the airdodge cancel, which actually does a better job of preserving footstooling's usefulness without compromising the technique.

 

[stingers]

Uhh, you realize if you miss a footstool now, you lose your double jump too, right?

This way footstools say exactly the same, except you need to hit up again to make sure you actually get it. Sounds PERFECT to me.

 

[kupo15]

so? is that a problem? You must recover.

Right, I forgot that you don't like the risk vs reward system and that you don't like skill either. Lets make teching mashable then and lets give everyone a "shine spike gimp" that can be performed without thought or precision.

 

[leafgreen386]

Uhh, you realize if you miss a footstool now, you lose your double jump too, right?

This way footstools say exactly the same, except you need to hit up again to make sure you actually get it. Sounds PERFECT to me.

Yeah... the failure stays the same... but you lose your DJ in the process if you're successful, too, which actually makes footstools less useful overall. If I didn't know better, I'd say you were a stealth anti-footstooler.

 

[Dark Sonic]

whatever fine, let's try the double tap footstool thing. Now can we talk about something else? Make footstooling require a double tap and make successfully footstooling restore one jump. Done deal whatever <_<

 

[Mattnumbers]

Uhh, you realize if you miss a footstool now, you lose your double jump too, right?

This way footstools say exactly the same, except you need to hit up again to make sure you actually get it. Sounds PERFECT to me.

Please actually read people's posts Stingers, Leaf said that if you cancel the AD and there is no one to footstool you go back to falling normally.

 

[Dark Sonic]

guys, we have two decent fixes for footstools, let's just try them (people seem to be less against the double tap, so let's just go with it). Then the only time you'll get a footstool is if you're going for a footstool (unless for some reason people mash jump to...double jump lol) and everything's fine.

 

[Shadic]

Again, how about we just make the sweetspot for Footstooling slightly more difficult, so that it won't happen on accident as it does?

It's like you people blew a fuse in your house, and decide to rewire the place instead.

 

[stingers]

Please actually read people's posts Stingers, Leaf said that if you cancel the AD and there is no one to footstool you go back to falling normally.

What does that have to do with the post you quoted? Jesus christ