Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[IrArby]

Whomever said that having clones in Melee plus the universal ATs (that everyone uses the same way) to balance the game is . . . well I won't say what I think about them since its not very nice but their definetly wrong. As has already been stated, the clones fight nothing alike the only close exception being the Marios. All the characters use ATs, even many of the same ones, but they all open up other options for every character. WDing alone can't kill anyone. What some characters can utilize WDing for does kill or combo or gimp or w/e. Oh yea someone said that IC's had a bad WD which is WTF wrong just pointing that out.

Brawl really does have less options as to how you can move/approach/retreat/camp/anything that involves movement so its more than fine if we compare Brawls options to Melee and we'd be badly advised not to.
Melee pros are very distinct in they're playstyles simply because they have more options. As a Marth main, I know whose playing him just by watching how they move, approach, and in general what options they use when and how. M2K plays nothing like Ken or Cort or Cactuar and that goes for all of them. I'm sure Falco mains and Fox mains and Link mains will say something similar.

This is where someone yells out loud "Ofcourse they play differently! The games been out 7 years they've developed different styles DUH!" But the fact that the game has been out so long means they're are clearly defined right and wrong ways to play your character. They even have guides for like every character. Wouldn't everyone be playing very similar at this point? THe answer is no since the game gives you such a ****ing wealth of options that its ridiculous (in a good way).
The next logical question would be "Are the Character Guides for Brawl Chars? NO. Hmm Then why does everyone playing look the same? They play the same, they use the same techs in the same ways, and no one yet has been able to tell me some real legitimate mindgames (Brawl's supposed saving grace) except for one guy who plays Sonic (I didn't forget).

And if your sitting at you PC stubbornly disaggreeing saying that they'll develop new AT that'll allow everyone to play diferently then your clearly missing a chromosone. And if everyones using Character Specific ATs rather than more Universal ones its only because the games general physics are such a let down overall. Just ask a Brawl Link how far his ATs get him against a competent Snake.

 

[ShadowLink84]

XD melee Marth was **** compared to the current top tier characters.

 

[Dark Sonic]

XD melee Marth was **** compared to the current top tier characters.

But so were almost all of the melee characters.

I so want use a reverse blazer on that accursed Metaknight

 

[Fletch]

XD melee Marth was **** compared to the current top tier characters.

So was Melee Mewtwo, as he could at least combo more than most characters in Brawl can.

 

[BlackSmoke]

So was Melee Mewtwo, as he could at least combo more than most characters in Brawl can.

Sad but true

 

[IrArby]

XD melee Marth was **** compared to the current top tier characters.

Nah. Put Melee Marth in a Brawl physics engine would be a sad thing indeed. Whereas if you put MK in a Melee physics engine he's even more ****.

 

[BlackSmoke]

Nah. Put Melee Marth in a Brawl physics engine would be a sad thing indeed. Whereas if you put MK in a Melee physics engine he's even more ****.

The thought of a l-canceling MK is scary...

EDit: Btw does anyone have a vid of a good sonic user please?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

@ IrArby i put that the IC had a bad WD but i was only comparing it in distance to Luigi's not its uses. i probably should have used someone elses to compare i was kinda rushing. im sorry

 

[ShadowLink84]

The thought of a l-canceling MK is scary...

EDit: Btw does anyone have a vid of a good sonic user please?

Go to the SOnic character forum.
There is a toic called Blue blue cinemas.
Click on Mr 3000 vs Sethlon.

 

[BlackSmoke]

Go to the SOnic character forum.
There is a toic called Blue blue cinemas.
Click on Mr 3000 vs Sethlon.

Thank you very much.
I tried wave dashing in brawl and i just um air dodged....
So without L-canceling and wave dashing, everyone will fight pretty much the same?

 

[IrArby]

The thought of a l-canceling MK is scary...

Isn't it though?! **** lets make a freaking thread about that! Put an already near broken character in a game thats mechanics actually enhance your alredy existing abilities . . . How do you avoid getting edgegayed by a character with 5 jumps/glides a tornado and the power to teleport, shuttle loop, or drill rush?

EDIT: And no JigglyZelda03 I'm sorry. Its not a big deal or anything since its not like your posting bad info in a Melee forum where it'd acutally count. Plus, I felt like a D-bag when you apologized. Rereading my post, I was definetly getting worked up the whole way through.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

apology accepted.
but if MK is like ultimate **** if put in Melee would Snake be the same or worse than him? >.>

 

[ShadowLink84]

Thank you very much.
I tried wave dashing in brawl and i just um air dodged....
So without L-canceling and wave dashing, everyone will fight pretty much the same?

No they of course are individual. However the game isn't as balanced since the game ends up being more defensive so you're going to hae a tough time as a slow character.
i.e Ganondorf.

Not to mention the lack of hitstun means combos are limited to all but a handful
i.e. MK

and the lack of approach which most lack
i.e. Link/Fox (he gets abused by OOS options)


Snake wouldn't be top tier IMP
L canceling would mean his baiting game would be weaker but he wouldn't have as difficult a time with campers.

 

[IrArby]

Hard to say since Melee doesn't have glides or boost smashing but assuming were just putting them in Melee with the ability to do only Melee ATs (not the best of both worlds) his jabs/Ftilt would be harder to set up since you can wavedash backwards. He'd probably have a terrible dashdance though his WD would be ok maybe IDK. Then again, he doens't have combo moves just big knockback moves.

Theres way to much to consider here but I'm guessing MK would be better. Can you say Fox speed/size meets Marth like range/disjointed hitboxes? I can. Metaknight.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Hard to say since Melee doesn't have glides or boost smashing but assuming were just putting them in Melee with the ability to do only Melee ATs (not the best of both worlds) his jabs/Ftilt would be harder to set up since you can wavedash backwards. He'd probably have a terrible dashdance though his WD would be ok maybe IDK. Then again, he doens't have combo moves just big knockback moves.

Theres way to much to consider here but I'm guessing MK would be better. Can you say Fox speed/size meets Marth like range/disjointed hitboxes? I can. Metaknight.

Snake would go down because....He'd be a combo magnet. He'd be like Ganondorf, only eaiser to combo and with few combos himself. And only being able to airdodge once would really hurt his recovery game.

Metaknight...would be a beast.

 

[Fawriel]

Theres way to much to consider here but I'm guessing MK would be better. Can you say Fox speed/size meets Marth like range/disjointed hitboxes? I can. Metaknight.

I see your Fox+Marth and raise you a Sheik+Marth+Jigglypuff.


And Snake would indeed fall, but would still be further up than Ganondorf and probably Samus...

 

[Lord Aether]

Bowser is not a viable character. I don't know why people keep using Gimpyfish as an example, but seriously Bowser sucks (in melee). Azen winning with Pichu does not prove that Pichu is good, mearly that Azen was just that much better than his opponent.

Yes and if Gimpy played Bowser in Brawl he would get beaten a lot more than he would win. Because of this, Brawl is less balanced.

Which is better: having the higher percentage of viable characters, or having the most viable characters?

Higher percent makes it more balanced, which is exactly what this discussion's about.

If all of the 12 characters of a game were viable, whereas only 14 are viable in a cast of 100, which of the two games are more balanced? I would say Melee is the former and Brawl the latter (not to that exact extent, but you see my picture if you applied common sense), which then proves my point.

Although, on second thought, from what you posted you probably don't really see what I was trying to say, but oh well.

This is where someone yells out loud "Ofcourse they play differently! The games been out 7 years they've developed different styles DUH!" But the fact that the game has been out so long means they're are clearly defined right and wrong ways to play your character. They even have guides for like every character. Wouldn't everyone be playing very similar at this point?

For now, we don't know where Brawl metagame's going to go seeing as Brawl metagame's only been around since ****ing February or something. March for most of us; this is a commonly used argument, and the counter to that is "we're experts and we already know the right way to play!"

I personally would wait before jumping to conclusions. Let it pan out for now; we could be playing the wrong way for all we care, and just jumping to things. Let it fan out before making a judgment; I'm honestly neutral on this matter simply because of Brawl's current lack of options, but I dunno it really hasn't been out long...

Maybe we're looking at it all wrong. We're looking at it from the wrong mindset. Only time will tell, and I'm not on either side.

 

[Scala]

Higher percent makes it more balanced, which is exactly what this discussion's about.

If all of the 12 characters of a game were viable, whereas only 14 are viable in a cast of 100, which of the two games are more balanced? I would say Melee is the former and Brawl the latter (not to that exact extent, but you see my picture if you applied common sense), which then proves my point.

I think the game with 14/100 balanced characters is better than the game with 12/12 balanced characters. It's not exactly 'balanced' but I would consider the 14/100 game to be better because when comparing something of this sort you can essentially throw away the unused characters (since they wouldn't be played anyways) and you are left with 14 vs 12. The game with 14 playable characters would be better because of the more diversity and players would have to have broader knowledge.

If I were to compare this to brawl I think there are a lot more characters that are viable simply due to the dumbed down system. Since brawl has more playable characters, it would end up being a better game.

The unfortunate part is that this doesn't factor in any of the ATs from either game.

Also I think melee mechanics made for a better (but more limited) competitive game.

 

[Fawriel]

I think the game with 14/100 balanced characters is better than the game with 12/12 balanced characters.

In a way you could say this, but the fans of all the 86 unusable characters would beg to differ.
One thing that really drives me crazy about Brawl (and Melee to a lesser extent) is not just that it's unbalanced, but which characters are unbalanced in relation to one another. Yes, this is just a personal opinion, but come on, I don't get why they are always hell-bent on making the real gaming icons like Mario and Link as mediocre as possible while giving all the power to characters like Fox who has never even shown any ability outside of piloting an Arwing. And Brawl just really takes the cake because, who's overpowered? The WTF characters G&W and ROB! Not only that, but G&W isn't even a WTF character anymore! They practically never had a fanbase anywhere, who does it serve that they are the powerful ones while a respectable character like Samus gets everything taken away from her that defined her in the first place? And just how can Ganondorf, the frikkin king of frikkin evil, possibly be so WEAK?

But... that doesn't really have much to do with anything.
Ahem.

 

[Thingy Person]

I guess Scala has a point. You could say Counterpick > Neutral for the same reason...

But this is a discussion about what game is more balanced, right? Then again, looking at the current page...

edit: Actually, considering Brawl's bottom tiers were useless, aren't Melee's viable characters, though fewer in numbers, more varied in viability than Brawl's? Because if you go past a certain threashold in Brawl, you're ****ed.

 

[EvolveOrDie]

As a completely neutral point I wonder what would you think of brawl if melee weren't a part of the equation. I know this is off topic but without any comparison to melee what do you think of brawl.

On topic I understand that brawl has less technical options than melee and probably less overall options, but less doesn't automatically make it worse. I understand that not having combos with every character hurts but it really just emphasizes brawl's more defensive nature. As for character matchups, well we know that in melee you could use one of your characters advantages to exploit a mistake or create an opening for the setup or combo and get the kill, in brawl if your character has something they can use advantageously then you better abuse it until your opponent believes that whatever they do your particular tactic will happen to their detriment. Take Samus and her zair it's a pretty sweet move and my goal in using it is to make you feel like I can and will always zair, even when you feel safe. If I do that long enough you start to feel like you know when your going to get zaired and at that point I don't have to zair you, you've zaired yourself and I've effectively convinced you that I have a 100% success move. Now while that rarely happens I will still abuse the zair, why because it's something(and hard to punish) and that's better than nothing. Now when you say CF I've got nothing because I tried to play him and he can run fast, after that I got nothing on what to do with him.

As I reread my post I realize it has nothing to do with balance, hmm. >_>

 

[Fawriel]

As I reread my post I realize it has nothing to do with balance, hmm. >_>

That's okay, because you have a nice name.


As for your initial question, it's hard to say. How do you define "if melee weren't a part of the equation"? If Melee had never existed, it would have been SO many years since the last game came out, most fans would easily be won over simply because of the improvements in the graphical department and other things. There would probably be a couple of competitive players who miss their incredibly aggressive game, but there weren't nearly as many of those for SSB64 as there were for Melee, so they wouldn't be very vocal.
On the other hand, Brawl is pretty much the exact opposite of SSB64 in playstyle, so that could alienate a lot of players.

Well... I dunno. What's the point of the question anyway? Competitive players would still find Brawl to be shallow, they just wouldn't be as disappointed because there is no precedent anyway, so people would just consider it as the party game that it is.

 

[EvolveOrDie]

Well pretty much you answered it, I just wondered what would think of the game if we were evaluating it objectively. I don't agree with it purely being a party game but I did ask for an opinion, so thank you for the response and the comment on my name. Now I wonder if I should sleep or just stay up till 12.

 

[Dragonslayer9]

Doesn't seem to be THAT unbalanced, I mean you got videos like this http://youtube.com/watch?v=IPbJdt6Ehcs
Where Falco is basically a counter pick for Ganon but he still manages, if it was that unbalanced then Ganon would not even stand a chance.

But that is just one video so I don't know...

 

[MookieRah]

To those saying Metaknight would be a beast if there is l-canceling, do you guys realize that he has virtually no lag to begin with? It wouldn't speed him up very much, and I don't think his placement would shift cause of it. L-canceling would benefit the slower characters morso than the already ******** fast ones, as it can speed them up tremendously while the fast ones get an ever so slight boost.

Also, keep in mind that the attacks that Meta has are weak in comparison to some of the bigger attacks that have significant lag. If you cut that lag in half, all the sudden those moves become a lot better as they would push people outside of shield grab range and the l-cancel would allow them to recover from it before the opponent can retaliate. Meanwhile, even with auto-canceled moves, you can still shield grab.

Keep that in mind.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

MK's moves might be fast, but his land speed isn't all that great, maybe slightly above average. l-cancelling wouldn't help, but sliding d-smashes would destroy everyone.

 

[strongfan]

It may be truth! Either that, or the "Slightly different flavor" characters offer just might be easier for me. In melee, the ONLY character I could play with was Luigi. Everyone else was just too slow, didn't jump enough, couldn't turn right, or couldn't do aerial combat(my main weapon was to hit them upwards with an up smash then jump up and punish them), but in brawl, I can use practically any character! Even Ganondorf!(that's saying something! That guy is SSSSSLLLLLOOOOOWWWW!!!!!). The only character I can't use is Sonic! He sucks!

 

[IrArby]

That fact that MK has weaker moves that have no lag is much better in Melee than having slow powerful ones that are still a little slow when L-canceled. Remember that Fox's combos use low impact moves (dair, shine, dash attack, and the no-flinch lasers) that lead into one high impact finisher (usually a grab to an upair). With L-canceling and actual hitstun, how easy would it be for a MK to combo someone into a Shuttle Loop? I'm guessing pretty **** easy. MK would be broken in Melee. He wouldn't have superamor on his Tornado or his Drill Rush though not that he'd needs them since Melee has combos.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i wonder how Sonic would do in Melee..... :/

 

[ShadowLink84]

He would piss alot of peopleoff.

It would be like dealing ith a faster version of CF.

Fair~Fair~Fair would definitely be a combo that kills early and even if the opponent DI's they can't airdodge or they'd die.
his wwavdashing would be good.
his damage racking ability would be good.
Considering its much easier to kill int hat game it wouldn't be difficult.
He could set up kills with his Uthrow~uair~spring~Uair with the increased difficulty.
His dashdancing would be better than Falcon's.
He would be very hard to edge guard.
His already fast approach game wouldbe even faster.
He would have no lag on his aerials because of L canceling.
All of his moves that are used for chasing or strings would be used for combo or potential kills.
In short, he would do much better than he does now.

Heck I am quite sure Brawl's Ganondorf would do better than melee's ganondorf.
Brawl's Link wouldn't do as well as melee Link.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah. poor Link
i've recently started to play as Link, but every match is mostly camp x9000 until its time to try for a kill. and to think in melee i hated camping....

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I wish I could say I hated melee camping. Unfortunately, it won me a lot of matches...

It sounds like Brawl characters in a melee physics engine would be beyond broken. It proves something, but I'm not sure what...

Who wants to fill in that blank?

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

I wish I could say I hated melee camping. Unfortunately, it won me a lot of matches...

It sounds like Brawl characters in a melee physics engine would be beyond broken. It proves something, but I'm not sure what...

Who wants to fill in that blank?

I think it means that Brawls psychics engine is broken, and thus needed broken characters in it so that it could operate. Unfortunately, this resulted in every non-broken character to be completely useless.

Melee had a good, stable, logical psychics engine, and thus you didn't need to break the system in order to compete. However, over time, we did learn to break the engine and caused larger gaps then originally anticipated.

 

[Thingy Person]

I think it means that Brawls psychics engine is broken, and thus needed broken characters in it so that it could operate. Unfortunately, this resulted in every non-broken character to be completely useless.

I believe THC was taking a jab for something Pro-Brawl. Awesome reply

But drawing conclusions from such a thing is quite pointless, IMO. Neither do I see how you could call broken characters within a "broken" engine "broken". If anything, the non-broken characters would be broken because they don't fit in, yes?

 

[Samuelson]

I used to think that Brawl was more balanced then Melee but now I'm gonna have to say that Melee is more balanced then Brawl.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Actaully, melee's physics engine always struck me as the broken one. Brawl doesn't seem to have as broken a physics engine for the same reason the matches aren't as interesting to watch - that is, the engine does not open up as many new possibilities outside of those clearly intended for the game (as of yet) as melee's engine did.

That could easily change as more new ATs are discovered, but new ATs cannot be assumed in a discussion, as there is no way of knowing whether they exist or not, nor is there any way of knowing who will benefit from them and by how much.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Actaully, melee's physics engine always struck me as the broken one. Brawl doesn't seem to have as broken a physics engine for the same reason the matches aren't as interesting to watch - that is, the engine does not open up as many new possibilities outside of those clearly intended for the game (as of yet) as melee's engine did.

That could easily change as more new ATs are discovered, but new ATs cannot be assumed in a discussion, as there is no way of knowing whether they exist or not, nor is there any way of knowing who will benefit from them and by how much.

Actually, now that you mention it, Brawl engine does seem the the more stable and balanced engine. Its slow, mundane and methodical, but its consistent. The only things that seem off is tripping. That is purely random.

Melee is fast, crazy and often hard to predict, and thus understand. How your character will react with terrain and in relation to momentum is highly subject to change. But, if it wasn't for that unstable and inconsistent engine, most our our popular AT's wouldn't work.

However, I still stick by my original statement that Brawl characters are broken. Its to obvious. My best example is Metaknight... the character has everything except weight. Like wtf? Its not Snake that breaks this game, its Metaknight.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Melee is fast, crazy and often hard to predict, and thus understand. How your character will react with terrain and in relation to momentum is highly subject to change. But, if it wasn't for that unstable and inconsistent engine, most our our popular AT's wouldn't work.

However, I still stick by my original statement that Brawl characters are broken. Its to obvious. My best example is Metaknight... the character has everything except weight. Like wtf? Its not Snake that breaks this game, its Metaknight.

well wasn't that the beauty of Melee, before and after, you get to the in depthness/technicality of AT's? and G&W follows on almost the same lines as MK.....

 

[ADHD]

You guys need to main diddy.

I had problems with all of the high tiers until the little chimp ***** dem all, they are no longer an issue and actually, I love to see a snake or meta now. It's actually fun to play around with their broken-nes+s

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You guys need to main diddy.

I had problems with all of the high tiers until the little chimp ***** dem all, they are no longer an issue and actually, I love to see a snake or meta now. It's actually fun to play around with their broken-nes+s

Sure, Diddy was hype when the game first came out...(DIDDY WONG)

Now try playing the likes of Cort's Snake with your Diddy.

>___> I wanna hear that chimp chatter exuberantly when C4 is rammed up his bum.

Smooth Criminal