Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Thingy Person]

No

I'll do your work then *rolls eyes*
You say "Since it first came out", but it's actually "When it first came out". Brawl was balanced and fun for the first month or so, and the Yoshis and CFs you saw were probably from around back then or in a tourney full of scrubs.

 

[Lord Aether]

No.

One would think you'd actually point out what's wrong with the post as opposed to saying no.

 

[Super Mari0]

I win more often using spam against really good players, than trying to space all the approaches and be all mindgamy and stuff

seriously, attacks like kirbys dash attack is ****in broken how can it be so strong
and not to mention kirbys fsmash, so ridiculous

56k I love your G&W in melee and stuff, but seriously I dont think you have much experience when it comes to brawl spammers.
I know what its like... its ****in frustrating...

AND WTF IS UP WITH PIKACHUS DSMASH >__> it like takes forever to finish its so **** frustrating

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

I win more often using spam against really good players, than trying to space all the approaches and be all mindgamy and stuff

seriously, attacks like kirbys dash attack is ****in broken how can it be so strong
and not to mention kirbys fsmash, so ridiculous

56k I love your G&W in melee and stuff, but seriously I dont think you have much experience when it comes to brawl spammers.
I know what its like... its ****in frustrating...

AND WTF IS UP WITH PIKACHUS DSMASH >__> it like takes forever to finish its so **** frustrating

Sounds like someone DOESN'T have enough experience versus spammers. If you know what your opponent is going to do, it should be completely able to be countered.

Sure, good moves will still be good, ie Kirby F-Smash will still be a fast, powerful move with a ton of range. However, if you know your opponent is going to use it, you prepare and adapt to counter that technique.

I can also tell that your not to experienced because Pikachu's Down Smash is extremely DI'able and should be extremely easy to counter if you know its coming...

 

[metaXzero]

^Kirby is unfortunantely not broken like MK and Snake. He is better then he was in Melee (mostly due to the new physics engine), but his match-ups with High/Top tiers aren't much different then Melee (really ******g hard)

 

[Dark Sonic]

The competitive Melee scene has been around for a long time and it was pretty well established that the truly viable characters (and I know there have been exceptions) were Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Peach and in the right hands (Chudat) iceclimbers.

You forgot Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, and Samus.

Along with pretty much everybody in mid tier, since their matchups against the top tiers...are actually not bad.

I see some peoples lists, and wonders, what makes Ice Climbers not viable, they have short range yes, but their grabs is like 0-KO as soon as they get a grab from a great IC player...

Then why haven't they been winning? Maybe it's because...getting that one grab can be really really hard.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

You forgot Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, and Samus.

Along with pretty much everybody in mid tier, since their matchups against the top tiers...are actually not bad.



Then why haven't they been winning? Maybe it's because...getting that one grab can be really really hard.

Well on Ankoku's rankings they are IIRC 13th, so they're doing alright. Granted there is a HUGE gap from Pit downwards, and the gap between A and B is pretty big as well.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Pikachu's QA only does like 2% when it goes through you and though it can be infinitely canceled; even into a dair or a jump, it racks up damage very slowly and doesn't have KO potential. He's not bad in fact I almost decided to main him but he's simply well rounded IMO. A lot of his aerials last overly long and though he's got a good Fsmash/Dsmash the problem he and every else I've listed here has is that being always viable means competing against MK and Snake. MKs aerials would eat through his QACs and Snake can outrange him or just SnakeDash through him.

A bit of advice from a Pika mainer who wasted way too much time on basics and spent way to little time on ATs - being good at Pikachu is not about QAC nearly as much as its about mastering the basics surrounding his attacks. Upon closer examination, QAC speeds up his land speed and makes for an unexpected aerial, but adds little to his metagame as an AT. What does add to his metagame is a complete knowledge of how to use his ranged attacks (and of course, mastering ungimpable landings). Thundershock is incredibly useful after QAC because you can DI towards it for a projectile chase, or away for defence. Also, a good Pika mainer will use thunder when you pass overhead, a great one will hit when you are too high to be visible.

Sorry, but being a Pika-mainer since N64, and the buffs Pikachu has recieved in Brawl, make me consider him extremely potent. Especially against Snake, who he can chain grab as well as taking advantage of Snake's slow horizontal speed to thunder him even if he does air-dodge.

 

[Chex-Mex]

Ok, well since I don't feel like reading all this, I'm just gonna state my personal experiences with the balance issues, and hope I have not repeated anyone, and have added at least slightly to the discussion.
Originally I was thinking melee was more unbalanced because brawl seemed to cater more to the "sit-there-and-c-stick" strat. Then After reading a few more posts here, I started reconsidering. I started to think of all the characters in brawl who were just plan terrible, so I sort of decided brawl was more unbalanced. Then I left my computer, started pacing and really thought about if for a good 3 minutes. Here's what I came up with...
First, to solve any equation, you need a variable, and constants (don't get smart with me, I've taken calc and ****, you know what I'm getting at). The variable in this case is balance. the constants, not so easy.

I thought of playing Brawl with my friend. On average, I'd say I could beat him 4/5 times. Thats 80% of the time. This is assuming we are both Full, another constant. When I say Full I mean we are both using our main, me Rob, and him Lucas.

Then, the other equation, I basically did the same thing but for melee. When we're Full, me Young Link, him Jiggly Puff, I'd say it comes to about 1/2, 50%. This is assuming I'm really serious, his Jiggles is ferocious. Ok, then my worst character in melee is definitely Bowser. I thought about it, and decided I'd win 1/300 times. I honestly don't think I could, (at my current level) beat my friend with Bowser, unless he happened to fall into one of Bowser's obvious smashes, or I get lucky. There is a very small chance he'd mess up 4 times in a row at a certain percent, close to the edge. I estimated this happening once every 300 matches, a .333333% chance of winning. He can lock me in an unavoidable death combo with Jiggs.

The final peice to this puzzle (sorry, this is getting long) is his Ganon vs. my Rob. Now, this is where level becomes a problem, but using our normal skipping around through custom stages, I'd say he could possibly beat me once every 100 games (roughly, I mean I'm rounding on these estimates, I could prolly do this more accurately, but that'd take effort, that I'm not willing to expel). Thats a 1% chance of winning. I cannot lock him in a for sure death combo.

My conclusion is this: the gap between worst characters and best characters in melee is bigger. In melee, there are just certain techniques you can abuse to render your opponent helpless. I don't wave dash, or l-cancel, or dash dance, my friend does. Yet we're still at 50/50 at Full. In brawl, I can't control him as easily. He can use annoying edge techniques, and DI away like I can't do in melee.

Conclusion to my conclusion: brawl is more balanced.

equations:
*lower index is better. An index of 1 would be a perfectly balanced game.
Brawl...... (80)/(1) = 80 Winning index
Melee..... (50)/ (.33333) = 150 Winning index

Feel free to say this is pure bull ****, but this is my honest opinion. Try this stain of logic with your characters and friends from melee/brawl. I mean, the difference in our (me and my friend) skill in the games is apparent, but the amount of times I could potentially lose in melee is ridiculous. I've tried to estimate the numbers as best I can. Next time we play, I'll try and pay very close attention to this, although once my friend masters b-sticking, all this is going to change *sniff sniff

*Notice I did the better player in brawl vs. the worst player. This adds to the discrepancy, as well as the fact that Brawl has more players, and various good vs bad combos. From that fact, the overall winning idexes for the game should be alot closer. its still really close imo, but one things for sure in my mind. You lose alot more in worst vs best in melee.
Hmmm...that was a little inconclusive, and frustrating, eh?

 

[AmigoOne]

^^
I dont think you're putting in enough variables..... char matchups, tier (roughly, you know that some characters are better than others)
You could play falco/pit, someone Im assuming you barely play, against his ganon, I bet you would win everytime because ganon has absolutely nothing against spamming projectiles. It's a bit more complicated than that.

 

[Corigames]

Could your equation be messed up if the constant of him using ATs in melee being removed fluctuate the results? It's like:
Melee:
Balance + skill + tech = game
Brawl:
Balance + skill = game

The equations aren't the same. In my opinion of course. then again, trying to quantify this **** is mind boggling.

 

[ThaPhantom07]

I think Brawl is more balanced in the sense that among a lot of the semi competitive players any character can be chosen and you stand a decent chance of winning if you're good but I think it is unbalanced in the sense that the best characters (Snake, Metaknight) completely shut down and dominate a large portion of the roster whereas in Melee a lower tier character wasn't completely shut down by Fox because of advantage.

 

[Corigames]

I think Brawl is more balanced in the sense that among a lot of the semi competitive players any character can be chosen and you stand a decent chance of winning if you're good but I think it is unbalanced in the sense that the best characters (Snake, Metaknight) completely shut down and dominate a large portion of the roster whereas in Melee a lower tier character wasn't completely shut down by Fox because of advantage.

Super contradiction is SUPER.

Yet... for some reason... I get what you are saying.

 

[Vyse]

More like:

Skill + Universal tech = Melee
Skill + MetaKnight or Snake = Brawl

amirite?

 

[Corigames]

It's Math. It's Science. It's Fact. You can't dispute fact.

 

[Super Mari0]

Sounds like someone DOESN'T have enough experience versus spammers. If you know what your opponent is going to do, it should be completely able to be countered.

Sure, good moves will still be good, ie Kirby F-Smash will still be a fast, powerful move with a ton of range. However, if you know your opponent is going to use it, you prepare and adapt to counter that technique.

I can also tell that your not to experienced because Pikachu's Down Smash is extremely DI'able and should be extremely easy to counter if you know its coming...

Um... dont talk as if the Kirby ONLY FSMASHES >__>
Ill tell you the ****s Kirby does with SPam :


UpB, ****in long range and ****in high priority, works as a projectile too
do it 2 times and you get about 26% even if the dodges the first one, the kirby cant get punished because your slow as hell, just like it is in brawl except for Snakes Smash Boost

Fsmash, you cant shieldgrab it because you slide like a douchebag and even if you shield it most of the times it goes through the shield so youre fu*ked and anyway it has HUUUGE range and huge knockback and brings lotsa damage, you can even hit it 2 times in a row if your good at spamming

Dash Attack, its hilarious, its got so much priority no ****in attack can cancel is, it has about 7 hits and the last one is a huge knockback hit so you cant shieldgrab it coz it would go through the shield or it would shieldBREAK you. and its ****in fast

as a spammer you can also grab so you have many ways to fu*k up your opponent even if he tries to get out of those attacks with mindgames and tactic, he wont be able to because you ****in slow in brawl you have no way to actually move faster kirby will **** the sh*ts out of you


pit is still the king of all spammers. i win against very good snakes by holding down the A button, seriously


and no, I tried to smash DI out of the ****in DSmash it doesnt work at all. or atleast it works when your like a ****in GOD,
I do DI alot in Melee im one of the best marios in germany probably and dont have less experience with tournaments and smashfests
brawl is so fu*ked up you need to get use to it, but **** its so easy to own with spam seriously

 

[Vyse]

pit is still the king of all spammers. i win against very good snakes by holding down the A button, seriously

I'm one of the

Spoiler

best - well not really -

Diddy's in Australia.
I have a good Diddy.
Does that make my opinion count?

No : (

Why?

Because I don't play in America. If it's possible to DI out of Pika's Dsmash, and it's relatively useful, the North American scene will be able to do it. And I'm pretty sure the good players can already.

But I do agree with the spamming argument somewhat.

@Corey:

Dash dancing + Wavedashing + L-cancelling = Winning in Melee
Camping + Spamming = Winning in Brawl (Where winning in brawl =/= MetaKnight)

 

[Corigames]

Smash DI down Tech.

 

[Super Mari0]

The more I play against spammers,
the more I love melee.

Okay I do win against Spammers, but its not that easy. You need to o so careful and in Melee you can just **** his mindset with ownage and mindgames and speed and combos

In brawl, you fight for every ****in hit.
there arent any ''0 to death combos'' anymore really its just like a fight, all characters are fighting for their 1 to 3 hit combos.


Big ****in Edit :

The main problem of Pikas DSmash is, if you touch it even ONCE your fu*ked, you can DI out of it but it still the same effect and you cant punish it really either

PUNISHING :
Great that I thought of that, you cant punish good in Brawl if someone spams you and misses, you cant punish the spammers because everything is so ****in slow in brawl
In melee you Wavedash right into that ******* and grab his face, smash it in the ground and grind it across the walls like a badass muthafacka

 

[JigglyZelda003]

you can punish the spammers it just depends on who your using against which spammer. since you use mario it shouldn't be that bad even against the most dedicated spammer.

 

[Zankoku]

I'd just like to point out that I'm a bad player and I can SDI out of Pikachu's dsmash. The hitlag is disgustingly long, it's not that difficult.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

When I'm really, really ticked at a spammer, I go Pit.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Dude, people can DI out of ROB's down smash. Pikachu's is a piece of cake.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

~snip.~

Hmmm...that was a little inconclusive, and frustrating, eh?

More like "useless" and "asinine," if you ask me.

Smooth Criminal

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Dude, people can DI out of ROB's down smash. Pikachu's is a piece of cake.

um which way do you DI out of ROB's Dsmash?

 

[Dark Sonic]

um which way do you DI out of ROB's Dsmash?

Well, I just SDI left or right (depending on which side I was on). I can't do it on reaction, but if I see the d-smash coming (like they often do after they spotdodge) then I can do it fairly consistantly.

 

[Nowaytoeatatater]

Brawl can't possibly be more balanced than Melee. The characters are less balanced than in Melee, which is why they trip.

 

[ThaPhantom07]

Super contradiction is SUPER.

Yet... for some reason... I get what you are saying.

Yeah, that was worded kind of bad. I couldn't really figure out how to say what I meant but if you get it then that's cool.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Well, I just SDI left or right (depending on which side I was on). I can't do it on reaction, but if I see the d-smash coming (like they often do after they spotdodge) then I can do it fairly consistantly.

does that work for Zelda's Usmash too?

 

[gallax]

i play pika and it seems that everyone now knows that you can DI out of the dsmash...which now makes it that much harder for us pika players.

 

[Dark Sonic]

does that work for Zelda's Usmash too?

I'm not sure, but I normally just SDI her up smash...up (I'm normally in the air when I get hit by it) and then jump out. But I'll try it out next time I get to play agaist...people.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

But I'll try it out next time I get to play agaist...people.

people..... hehe. i wish i had more people to play with lol. i can't wait till school starts back again only cause i get to fight more people. sure they weren't as good as my "better regulars" which is only like 2 people. one is getting better while the other .......meh.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Actually one must be careful DIing against Zelda.
Similar to TL' Dsmash, the very first hit of Zelda's move has much more knockback than the rest of the hits.

I DI'ed after the first hit and I went flying up the screen and died at 100% =(

 

[JigglyZelda003]

after the first hit? wow. i was JP one time and managed to DI after the first touch but i didn't go flying..... i wasn't at a real high percent but normally i would have just gone up a good height at the % i was at it was aaround 40 something.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yeah it sent my flying up and I died at 90%.
T_T

 

[JigglyZelda003]

wow i guess i just was lucky as JP. but i want to know is there someway to DI around G&W's Dsmash? cause its like sometimes i get hit by it and instead of going up, and die T.T, i go sideways at a low angle.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The edge of the hammer knocks you sideways.

You can try DIing down and teching off the floor.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

oh! so thats why everytime i charged him with wolf i went sideways. well at least i know thats escapable now to some extent. its like hes the only character the people i fight pick who scares me.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

It might not always be wise to DI out of Pikachu's Dsmash. The attack is a semi-spike, which makes it easy for Pika to edge-guard you if you are near a ledge.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

@ halloween cptn
thanks for the heads up on the semi spiking. i think in most cases i'd rather deal with edgeguarding pikachu than the thundering one