Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Fletch]

So how did you pick your main, Yuna? Did you pick your favorite character? When everyone picks their favorite character, and a lot of people have the same favorite, that character becomes popular. It wasn't coincidence that the two most used characters in Brawl's metagame are also two of the coolest in the game.

By this logic, shouldn't characters like Sonic be top tier as well?

 

[IrArby]

-Usually in competitive play, Character Ability leads to Character Popularity. Characters are popular because they have winning potential. Not to many people are fanboyish enough to main what they know to be a ****ty character in tournaments simply because they like them. It follows logically that underplayed characters are unpopular since they have less Character Ability. I'm sure lots of people wanted Falcon to be great he just sucks on principle not popularity.
-Pikachu's edgeguarding is by no means anything special, especially since the lightning bolt, Nair, and Dsmash are easily avoided if they sweetspot the edge which is a cakewalk in Brawl. Whereas, someone like R.O.B. or MK can hit you multiple times during your recovery (instead of Pika's one Nair) and still quite easily recover themselves.
-There's no logical argumentive basis for Character Specific ATs being puposefully included since Sakurai did his best to remove ATs from the game in the name of "fun" (A$$hole). Besides, what character specific ATs do Snake, MK, D3, Rob, or Marth use (and don't say boost smashing alot of people use it)?

The Fox vs. Falco debate:
Falco's FireBird: [ . . . . . . . . ]
Fox's FireFox: [ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ]

Point being Falco, like Falcon gets runined by a lot of characters offstage. Sure both Falco and Fox get comboed easily but you have to rack up more damage on Fox to put him out of stage range to recover. Falco has got the best offesnse in the game with great combos and the game's best approach plus the easiest spike in the game but his defense is easily the worst of the top 4 and is even worse the Falcons (# 6). I can't remember past Samus but between her and Fox, Falco has the worst recovery.

According to M2K, Fox vs. Marth is equal and Marth is greater than Falco. The tier list for Melee isn't accurate enough but most people are just familar enough with individual matchups that we don't need the tier list anyway. Characters have more potential wherever they lie on the tier list.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Jiggs and IC were never popular, and took a long time to develope. Simplicity of use and apparent character potential are the number 1 priority of the populous - hence MK and Snake. GW took longer because his potential was less apparent than Snake's, and he is harder to pick up than MK.

 

[Yuna]

Captain, my Headache-Inducing Captain, when we speak about balance, we assume that what we know insofar isn't going to drastically change. We assume that no one's going to randomly pick up Ganondorf tomorrow and make him Top Tier material.

No one cares if someone might be able to rearrange the metagame tomorrow. We'll discuss that when and if it happens. And it won't necessarily drastically change the balance of the game either.

The tiers and the gaps between them will remain largely the same, just that one or a few other character might climb or fall drastically. The game won't automatically become more balanced. Our perception of how good the characters were will just adjust, but the balance will remain pretty much the same.

The game has already been programmed. What's in the game is in the game. The balance (or lack of thereof) is already there. We might not have discovered it all yet, but that won't change it. And at the writing moment, Brawl doesn't look balanced at all, especially not more than Melee.

Captain, prove Brawl is more balanced with valid arguments instead of "Well, I think"s, "I've heard"s and "Well, things might change".

 

[ShadowLink84]

By this logic, shouldn't characters like Sonic be top tier as well?

Despite popular belief sonic is actually one of the lesser played characters.

 

[IrArby]

Jiggs and IC were never popular, and took a long time to develope. Simplicity of use and apparent character potential are the number 1 priority of the populous - hence MK and Snake. GW took longer because his potential was less apparent than Snake's, and he is harder to pick up than MK.

Jiggs and IC weren't very popular because they're not top or high tier. They're still very good characters with massive potential but they're development was secondary or even tertiary to Shiek's Fox's and Falco's. Fox/Falco don't at all fall under your simplicity of use rule. Sure Shiek does follow that line as well as the apparent character potential but Melee had less apparent but very powerful game potential so Fox/Falco technically > Shiek.

My point is, simplicity of use type characters that do well are only trumped when other characters can make massive development to their less apparent capabilities. For the most part, these don exit in Brawl! The Melee tier list didn't undergo any Major transformations after the first year or so when like half of the ATs had been discovered, the other changes were minor aside from Chu Dats ICs.
You're right, the good characters get developed first but no one went back afterwards to develop the bad characters into good ones. Their still not good characters their just no longer as bad. G&W's potential was still discovered pretty earlier on.

And wait a minute weren't you saying earlier that Popularity played a crucial role in who's developed or not? Now you're saying its "Simplicity of use and apparent character potential". When did this switch of stance occur?

 

[Da Man]

So how did you pick your main, Yuna? Did you pick your favorite character? When everyone picks their favorite character, and a lot of people have the same favorite, that character becomes popular. It wasn't coincidence that the two most used characters in Brawl's metagame are also two of the coolest in the game.

EDIT:
There are two components to a videogame - the game code and the game player. Yuna, you like to focus on the game code, and assume players are logical. I like to focus on the players, and assume they are human in their reasoning.

Hey I myself pick Mario as my main for 2 reasons:

1. Cause I like him
2. I was great with him in Melee

I don't pick mains just because of reason 1 and that he is so popular. After picking him to main I gotta play with the Mario a bit more till I get used to him/her.
Even today i'm know as a great Mario player.

Yet Marth was totally unknown to the english before Melee and now most people main him today.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

thats cause Marth breaks all the rules >_> lol

i pick my mains cause i like them too and i have a feel for them. but their will always be those who won't pick chracters, or stop picking them, cause they suck and only pick good ones.

 

[Scarface]

Here's how I picked my main in Brawl.

I played Brawl.

I played every character in Brawl.

I didn't read these stupid boards to view who was top tier, who had more potential, who countered who, or who had broken moves.

I played against my friend until I became familiar and adjusted to certain characters.

Then I started to play those select few characters.

and I weeded out which ones I didn't like. Whoever came to me as the easilest play style for me ended up being my main.

and that was Lucas.

~

I don't care if Snake and MK are top tier.

That isn't how I play.

Guess I'm not tournament calibur.

OH NOEZ.

 

[Corigames]

Shut up new***s. Picking a character that isn't top tier doesn't mean you can't be competitive, it just means you are at a disadvantage in the meta. Stop thinking you are honorable or something ****ing new to the world because you play a character you like that isn't top tier. I played Samus in Melee, and she's mid. Did that stop me from winning tournaments? No

Get over yourselves.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

@Coreygames
do you still play Samus in brawl too despite how bad she is?

 

[Fletch]

Here's how I picked my main in Brawl.

I played Brawl.

I played every character in Brawl.

I didn't read these stupid boards to view who was top tier, who had more potential, who countered who, or who had broken moves.

I played against my friend until I became familiar and adjusted to certain characters.

Then I started to play those select few characters.

and I weeded out which ones I didn't like. Whoever came to me as the easilest play style for me ended up being my main.

and that was Lucas.

~

I don't care if Snake and MK are top tier.

That isn't how I play.

Guess I'm not tournament calibur.

OH NOEZ.

Why are you even posting in this thread? We don't care if you don't want to play in tournaments, but then why are you posting in a thread which talks about balance in the competitive scene?

 

[Sliq]

Guess I'm not tournament calibur.

OH NOEZ.

Probably not.

 

[Corigames]

@Coreygames
do you still play Samus in brawl too despite how bad she is?

No, I don't play. It doesn't have to do with that she is bad, but why. She doesn't play anything like she did in Melee, she has no real strong points, and she just feels clunky. I just can't play as her anymore. I did, however, find Pit to be an acceptable Brawl replacement. However, I would rather play Melee, so I guess that's the Catch 22.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

oh i see. thats sad , but i just had to ask did you still use her or not.

 

[Scarface]

Huh?

er, I posted because I don't pick characters based on how good they do in tournaments.

The fact is, back in the good ole days, I did go to tournaments, and while I didn't win; I did make into the finals along with my other friends that entered these tournaments.

But even back then I picked people that I was most comfortable with. Hell, I didn't even know that Sheik was top tier until I came to this site. lol (fyi I used Luigi and Sheik in Melee.)

~

ANYWAYS.

This topic was about a balancing issue, right?

So, that's why I posted. Because there isn't any sense of balance in Brawl.

but, to anyone that I say that too, they reply to me that I am horribly mistaken. (just in a more impolite fashion.)

It still is fun, however, to run around town and play people that are in this "competitive scene" that you speak of. But then again, they just seem like regular average joes to me. Why does everyone have a huge ego on the internet? (The whole I'm-never-wrong bravado I constantly see here.)

so my reasoning for posting here, if I needed one master is that I think Melee is the more balanced game.

~~

Then again, I don't have a huge ego either. Bottom line is, there is only one best player and it's not me. Hell, it's probably no one on this thread either. So, with that I mind, I play to have fun.

Because I know I'm not the best. There is always someone better, more devoted, more focused, whatever.

So why waste money on a losing effort?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

everyone likes to win, at least every once in a while. and if you work your *** off learning your character you should have a better chance of winning than your opponent picked ______ to counter your character and its an 10-0 matchup in their favor. so all that hard work =/= a decent chance unless theres a huge huge skill gap. :/

 

[ginobeeto]

IMO brawl is more balanced than melee. In melee, Fox falco marth sheik peach and c. falcon ruled the game.

 

[metaXzero]

IMO brawl is more balanced than melee. In melee, Fox falco marth sheik peach and c. falcon ruled the game.

And in Brawl, MK, Snake, Dedede, and G&W rule the game. You're not making a good point.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

- Yuna

The tier list has yet to come out because apparent character ability has yet to be decided as stable by the Smash Back Room. Technically, our info is incomplete, and should be recognized as such. I also don't think Brawl is more balanced than melee (in the extreme cases). I just think that there are more characters who have true tournament potential.

In other words, it is still too early to assume what we know about Brawl is not going to significantly change.

- IrArby

Most popular characters are good. Most good characters are popular. However, people make mistakes and exagerate (emphesis on the latter). Snake, MK, and GW seem kinda exagerated - they are the best, but they are not rediculously unbalancing like they are made out to be. I take back what I said about popularity being more important than potential - because while technically true, it is linked to the public's understanding of the ability of characters.

EDIT: Sorry about this being a response to an earlier post.

 

[Linkguy]

Thats true they did. And now Snake, MK, D3, G&W, and falco rule the game. Difference is you could beat the melee top tier with a lower tier if you were good. Now if your opponent picks a counter to your character your gonna get ****ed in the ***. All that time practicing down the drain...

Take it from me being a Link main. Even with all of Link's AT's he'll still lose to a n00b that picks up MK for the first time. And you'd have to be God at Link to be able to win 3/5 with someone whos actually good with a MK.

 

[AlAxe]

And in Brawl, MK, Snake, Dedede, and G&W rule the game. You're not making a good point.

That's not true. You can look at the character rankings list and see that more than half the characters have won tournaments. In the hands of a good player any character can win in Brawl.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

That's not true. You can look at the character rankings list and see that more than half the characters have won tournaments. In the hands of a good player any character can win in Brawl.

However, I would highly advise against the DK v. Dedede matchup. Its more like in the hands of a good player, a group of three characters can win Brawl.

 

[Samochan]

That's not true. You can look at the character rankings list and see that more than half the characters have won tournaments. In the hands of a good player any character can win in Brawl.

Just because krazykirbykid or gimpy might've possibly won a small tourney with kirby and bowser on melee doesn't mean the characters don't suck or aren't otherwise unusable due to many disadvantages they have against better chars. >_> Same goes with brawl, if sonic wins a small tourney it doesn't make sonic any better char.

 

[metaXzero]

That's not true. You can look at the character rankings list and see that more than half the characters have won tournaments. In the hands of a good player any character can win in Brawl.

Exact same thing can be said for Melee. (Ignoring the really bad characters of both games) -_-

Like I had said, it isn't a good point (for saying X is more balanced then Y)

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Thats true they did. And now Snake, MK, D3, G&W, and falco rule the game. Difference is you could beat the melee top tier with a lower tier if you were good. Now if your opponent picks a counter to your character your gonna get ****ed in the ***. All that time practicing down the drain...

Take it from me being a Link main. Even with all of Link's AT's he'll still lose to a n00b that picks up MK for the first time. And you'd have to be God at Link to be able to win 3/5 with someone whos actually good with a MK.

while a very good link can, and should, bea able beat a scrub MK when the skill lvls are close to equal MK usually will prevail. where as in melee that was not always the case.

That's not true. You can look at the character rankings list and see that more than half the characters have won tournaments. In the hands of a good player any character can win in Brawl.

um last i looked at one, which was a while back so its probably dated, yes mostly the entire cast has won a tourney or 2. but Snake and MK had like 20 more victories than DDD and then DDD had 10 more than G&W and all the others who had wins were less than 10 mostly 8 and down. :/

 

[Yuna]

- Yuna

The tier list has yet to come out because apparent character ability has yet to be decided as stable by the Smash Back Room. Technically, our info is incomplete, and should be recognized as such. I also don't think Brawl is more balanced than melee (in the extreme cases). I just think that there are more characters who have true tournament potential.

In other words, it is still too early to assume what we know about Brawl is not going to significantly change.

Hypocrisy at its finest. If it's too early, why are you arguing that Brawl is clearly more balanced than Melee? I'm so sick and tired of this, people arguing Brawl is more balanced using faulty arguments and after they've been refuted they go "It's too early". Yeah, it wasn't too early before, but now...

That's not true. You can look at the character rankings list and see that more than half the characters have won tournaments. In the hands of a good player any character can win in Brawl.

Random characters winning single minor local tournaments each prove nothing. At the beginning of Melee's lifespan, the tournament results were much more varied than they are now (for Brawl). You see clear trends, certain characters placing high and winning many tournaments.

If any chracter can win, you go out and do it. Stop combing the tournament results looking for the (very few) exceptions where Low Tiers and Low-Mids have managed to win/place Top 5. Because those are either just really, really good players a la Azen or tiny tournaments without many good players (or possibly both).

 

[JigglyZelda003]

how varied were the tourney results for Melee? did they consistently change?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Hypocrisy at its finest. If it's too early, why are you arguing that Brawl is clearly more balanced than Melee? I'm so sick and tired of this, people arguing Brawl is more balanced using faulty arguments and after they've been refuted they go "It's too early". Yeah, it wasn't too early before, but now...


Random characters winning single minor local tournaments each prove nothing. At the beginning of Melee's lifespan, the tournament results were much more varied than they are now (for Brawl). You see clear trends, certain characters placing high and winning many tournaments.

If any chracter can win, you go out and do it. Stop combing the tournament results looking for the (very few) exceptions where Low Tiers and Low-Mids have managed to win/place Top 5. Because those are either just really, really good players a la Azen or tiny tournaments without many good players (or possibly both).

I stopped believing that Brawl is clearly more balanced than melee. Now all I think is that Brawl has a wider variety of tourney-viable characters from what I've seen. My understanding of Brawl's current metagame is that a wide variety of characters have potential while a few of them are used much more often than others. Brawl could become more imbalanced, but for now, I think that the highest tier is simply popular moreso than far superior to everyone else. Snake, MK, and GW are good, but they are not in a different league than characters like Pikachu and Pit. This is all liable to change, whether tournament results make balance obvious or reveal once and for all that Snake is in his own tier.

Also, it is a bit of a catch 22 to tell someone that they should go out and win tournaments with low tier characters when you consider people who do so to be either far superior to everyone else or participants at tiny tournaments with few good players.

 

[CStrife187]

The fact that no large tournament has been won by a low tier isn't something Yuna is claiming, it's something supported by the tournament results posted as part of Ankoku's rankings list. You forget that each and ever tournament used to count towards that list has an actual post in the thread linking or including results (including # of participants). No large tournament has been won by a low tier, and the closest thing has been Azen placing second with Lucario.

This is an example of Azen being Azen. He placed top 8-16 at many melee tournaments with luigi.

facts are facts. Yuna's not making up things to refute you, he's using actual data.

 

[IrArby]

This is an example of Azen being Azen. He placed top 8-16 at many melee tournaments with luigi.

But he won't be able to repeat the feat in Brawl since low tiers have less potential to beat the highs (thus the game is less balanced). Melee Luigi is a Good character just ask SW if you don't believe me.

The reason I bring this up is because the "Azen Is Just Good Like That" argument is getting thrown around a little too casually. If Azen can maximize a low tier character's potential and win matches, so can others. But, he's no longer doing that (in Brawl) since Lucario isn't a low tier character he's actually one of the situational mid tier characters that has a decent matchup with 1 or 2 or the top 5 or 6.

Summary of Post:
Azen did well in Melee Tournaments with Luigi because:
A). Luigi has sufficent potential to win against the Top tiers as do many other Low Tier characters.
B). "Azen Is Just Good Like That", though this point is secondary to point A). above

Azen will not do well in Brawl Tournaments with Luigi (and characters with similar rankings) because:
A). Lucario isn't low tier anyway so that argument is shot
B). The other low tiers don't have the potential of Melee's low tiers
C). The fact that "Azen Is Just Good Like That" won't be enough for him to overcome the limitations of low tier characters in Brawl because of the enormous gap.

 

[CStrife187]

I wasn't saying that to try to prove brawl's balance, I was trying to prove HalloweenCaptain's ignorance and lack of diligence.

 

[IrArby]

I wasn't saying that to try to prove brawl's balance, I was trying to prove HalloweenCaptain's ignorance and lack of diligence.

So was I, but I also wanted to touch on the "Azen Is Just Good Like That" arguement that everyone is posting everywhere.
Were in agreement here, no worries. lol

 

[shadenexus18]

Yes it is. Well...tourney player/casual player wise. Addddmit it people, some casual players can sneak atleast a win or two off...meh...I wouldn't say pros but "moderately good smashers" seeing how stuff like wavedashing was removed from the game. In Melee, the "moderately good smasher" wouldn't lose to a newbie or n00b cause there was just so much you could do to prevent a humiliating defeat.

I'm sorry, but all the sex kicks, gliding, short hopping, etc won't save most of us from a loss or two on Brawl against a newcomer. Ya know...once they get a feel for the game. ^^

 

[Dx-pyrohunter64]

Yes it is. Well...tourney player/casual player wise. Addddmit it people, some casual players can sneak atleast a win or two off...meh...I wouldn't say pros but "moderately good smashers" seeing how stuff like wavedashing was removed from the game. In Melee, the "moderately good smasher" wouldn't lose to a newbie or n00b cause there was just so much you could do to prevent a humiliating defeat.

I'm sorry, but all the sex kicks, gliding, short hopping, etc won't save most of us from a loss or two on Brawl against a newcomer. Ya know...once they get a feel for the game. ^^

I think you're confusing "learning curve" with "balance". Just because it's easier to pick up a controller and play decently on brawl then it is on melee doesn't make it more balanced.

Having a better chance against "moderately good smasher" as a newbie seems like more of an unbalance to me.

 

[shadenexus18]

I think you're confusing "learning curve" with "balance". Just because it's easier to pick up a controller and play decently on brawl then it is on melee doesn't make it more balanced.

Having a better chance against "moderately good smasher" as a newbie seems like more of an unbalance to me.

Hmmmmm....well put. ^^ I suppose that you're right bro.

You deserve some cookie points. *hands them over to pyrohunter*

 

[Corigames]

*interrupts cookie transaction*

Not on MY watch!

 

[Yuna]

Hmmmmm....well put. ^^ I suppose that you're right bro.

You deserve some cookie points. *hands them over to pyrohunter*

As opposed to the first 29 times this was brought up and refuted by, among others, yours truly?

Seriously, this is an old argument which get brought up every now and then and every time, we refute. The vast majority of "new" arguments brought in to support that Brawl is more balanced have already been brought up and refuted.

 

[BentoBox]

You guys have been repeating the same things for the last 20 pages, seriously.

 

[Corigames]

Yeah, but we've made the most goals. If we can keep our lead, it will at least keep us from going into overtime sudden death. And that's the last thing this thread needs... overtime.