Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

well wasn't that the beauty of Melee, before and after, you get to the in depthness/technicality of AT's? and G&W follows on almost the same lines as MK.....

Don't get me wrong, I loved Melee, much more than Brawl. Chaos was awesome. The difference was, Melee was organized chaos. You could control it with enough practice.

Brawl is too clear cut. Everything is either perfectly in your control, or completely out of your control. There is no ambiguity.

Melee, you could control your momentum, but only if you have focus and control on it. In Brawl, you can never control your momentum. You can only be moving, or not moving. There is no in between. It makes me sad.

 

[okiyama]

Well, from what I can see it's
Fox was really really good in melee, but hard to use. Same with Snake. (IMO snake takes a lot of getting used to and is currently the hardest to use character, but it's arguable)
MK is easy and is "crazy destruction everywhere!"(Gimpyfish, SMYN36). Much like shiek.
Marth has amazing match up against a few characters and is only good against others, DDD.
Wario is very good with proper mind games, much liek Peach.

That's just high/top tier characters, you can make a lot of parallels between the characters on similar spots on each tier list.

This si all my opinion and if you want proof for any of it I can't give you any, sorry.

 

[phate]

Melee is more balanced. It really comes down to a simple principle. Low tier characters could win against top because of combos and edgeguarding. Now that combos are easier to get out of, that low tier character has to make the tough approach multiple times to get the top tier character into the right range of damage to kill. Priority is much more important in brawl because of this. Also since brawl made it so that it is much easier to get back on the edge, edguarding is nowhere near as effective as it was in melee. The low tier character must pull off a kill move rather than combing into an edgeguard.

Don't get me wrong it is still possible to win with low tier characters, it is just way harder to do now. Its almost like they designed brawl to be less competitive. (lol)

 

[Lord Aether]

I think the game with 14/100 balanced characters is better than the game with 12/12 balanced characters. It's not exactly 'balanced' but I would consider the 14/100 game to be better because when comparing something of this sort you can essentially throw away the unused characters (since they wouldn't be played anyways) and you are left with 14 vs 12. The game with 14 playable characters would be better because of the more diversity and players would have to have broader knowledge.

That's my POINT. The 12/12 is more balanced than 14/100, which is what this entire topic's about lol...

 

[Alus]

Lie

Both Games have the same amount of balance...its just that...Brawl is more complex

 

[Zankoku]

Lie

Both Games have the same amount of balance...its just that...Brawl is more complex

You put the "serious" in "R U SRS?!"

 

[Alus]

Well, from what I can see it's
Fox was really really good in melee, but hard to use. Same with Snake. (IMO snake takes a lot of getting used to and is currently the hardest to use character, but it's arguable)
MK is easy and is "crazy destruction everywhere!"(Gimpyfish, SMYN36). Much like shiek.
Marth has amazing match up against a few characters and is only good against others, DDD.
Wario is very good with proper mind games, much liek Peach.

That's just high/top tier characters, you can make a lot of parallels between the characters on similar spots on each tier list.

This si all my opinion and if you want proof for any of it I can't give you any, sorry.

with the fox part i highly dissagree...

i keep finding my self in state tourmenents by doing nothing but playing around with the C stick.

Fox had by far the fastest smash attacks in the game.

 

[Alus]

Don't get me wrong, I loved Melee, much more than Brawl. Chaos was awesome. The difference was, Melee was organized chaos. You could control it with enough practice.

Brawl is too clear cut. Everything is either perfectly in your control, or completely out of your control. There is no ambiguity.

Melee, you could control your momentum, but only if you have focus and control on it. In Brawl, you can never control your momentum. You can only be moving, or not moving. There is no in between. It makes me sad.

there IS a in between very few charecters have that ability (wolf, pikachu,link,and did i mention wolf?)

each char now has there own advantage and disadvantage if you take the items away though the game will be unbalanced and who will win will ussually depend on which char is the fastest.

 

[IrArby]

I personally see almost no Paralells between the characters since the winning formula for Brawl is completely different that Melee's. As I said before Melee was about being able to punish mistakes and combo and setup for edgeguards/KOs. Thats a big simplification but more or less it boils down to that. Brawl is play defensive until you can sneak in your 1 hit or your jab combo (or the first grab of you grab infinite if applicable) and not get hit back in return. Then you reset and the games starts all over.

That being said, Fox is nothing like Snake in any way except they are both ranked #1. I don't see how Snake is difficult to use. Fox builds up damage in his combo and finishes them with something with alot of damage and knockback. Snake just does that all the time.

You could say that MK and Falco as #2 are both very offensive characters but the comparissions stop there since Falco is notorious for getting gimped. Neither Snake or MK get gimped ever which was standard harzard of playing Spacies. Yes, Melee tops have weaknesses whereas Snake/MK weaknesses fall somewhere between negligible and nonexistent.

I could go on but I don't see the point really. As coreygames said don't compare Brawl characters to Melee ones unless you want to truly know how bad they are.

 

[Zankoku]

with the fox part i highly dissagree...

i keep finding my self in state tourmenents by doing nothing but playing around with the C stick.

Fox had by far the fastest smash attacks in the game.

Um, exactly what state-level tournaments have you been attending? In the local tournaments over here, smash-spamming Fox/Falco/whatever players usually go 2 and out unless they get paired up against another smash-spamming player. And the competition here isn't exactly that great.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

there IS a in between very few charecters have that ability (wolf, pikachu,link,and did i mention wolf?)

each char now has there own advantage and disadvantage if you take the items away though the game will be unbalanced and who will win will ussually depend on which char is the fastest.

I know how Pikachu controls his movement, but how do Wolf and Link do it?

 

[ADHD]

Sure, Diddy was hype when the game first came out...(DIDDY WONG)

Now try playing the likes of Cort's Snake with your Diddy.

>___> I wanna hear that chimp chatter exuberantly when C4 is rammed up his bum.

Smooth Criminal

Excuse me, but that is CORT. CORT... not any old snake.... CORT!

 

[Pikaville]

I need more time to answer this question.

 

[IrArby]

So would most of us agree that Brawl has 5-6 characters who are nearly always viable against each other and also has "situational" high/mid tiers that act as counterpicks to only 1 or 2 certain characters in that top 5-6? This seems to make the most sense to me.

In Melee something similar existed only the 6-7 that were almost always viable against themselves is not only a greater # by itself (when compared to it's parralell in Brawl) but it is proportionately greater as well when compared against the whole cast. In Melee, there are still characters (both mid and bottom) that have decent or at least plausible matchups against the high/tops and besides counters actually count for a lot less in this game. Every character can combo thus every character can punish mistakes.

Furthermore, no character has the near fullproof option eliminating abilities that some have in Brawl. Take Melee Falco who has probably the best approach in the game. Its still punished by characters who know their options and can actually use them. If your playing C.Falcon against Snake and you know your options then that just means you know exactly how ****ed you are especially if he know his options too.

And fletch71011 is right the Melee tier list is dated since the top 4 especially are pretty much even its just dependant on whos playing them at this point and other characters are over/under-rated in general.
Really, the only accurate way is to just have individual matchups since Brawls hard counters tend to **** everything up.

Hmmm . . . that guys got some good points. Wonder what everyone else thinks. Too bad no one bothered to answer or contribute any thoughs to it.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

IrArby, forgive me for ignoring that, but I tend to shy away from walls of text when they are answers, and just skim them prior to a responce. I disagree with you quantities of viable characters, but will not bore you with a list answer unless you request it. I also agree that the lower tiers are more doomed than those in melee, only because I am not aware of anyone who uses Samus with quite the same proficiency as I am aware some meleer's used Bowser.

However, I believe you are very mistaken in you quantities of good high-tier characters in Brawl, while still accurate in you assessment of Brawl's worst of the worst, and in your knowledge of melee.

 

[-Big_-Blue 9]

Melee is more balanced. It really comes down to a simple principle. Low tier characters could win against top because of combos and edgeguarding. Now that combos are easier to get out of, that low tier character has to make the tough approach multiple times to get the top tier character into the right range of damage to kill. Priority is much more important in brawl because of this. Also since brawl made it so that it is much easier to get back on the edge, edguarding is nowhere near as effective as it was in melee. The low tier character must pull off a kill move rather than combing into an edgeguard.

Don't get me wrong it is still possible to win with low tier characters, it is just way harder to do now. Its almost like they designed brawl to be less competitive. (lol)

yup thats how it is

frankly i dont see how the next smash is going to be more balanced if there are more characters... that is if it comes and delivers

 

[IrArby]

The Halloween Captain: So, how many Almost Always Viable Characters would you have ideally. A list of them would be best since its important to discuss who is and isn't viable for reasons A, B, and C. So far I count Snake, MK, Marth, D3, Falco, G&W, and R.O.B. not neccesarily in that order. Olimar, Lucario, and DK aren't completely viable. That makes 7 and there are a few other situational midtiers but otherwise I seem to feel thats pretty accurate.

The other problems is Snake and MK still own kinda hard. And in all honesty, I'm not up to scratch on all of those matchups so I'm not super set on all of those. Anyone have thoughts on the third and fourth paragraphs.

 

[BlackSmoke]

The Halloween Captain: So, how many Almost Always Viable Characters would you have ideally. A list of them would be best since its important to discuss who is and isn't viable for reasons A, B, and C. So far I count Snake, MK, Marth, D3, Falco, G&W, and R.O.B. not neccesarily in that order. Olimar, Lucario, and DK aren't completely viable. That makes 7 and there are a few other situational midtiers but otherwise I seem to feel thats pretty accurate.

The other problems is Snake and MK still own kinda hard. And in all honesty, I'm not up to scratch on all of those matchups so I'm not super set on all of those. Anyone have thoughts on the third and fourth paragraphs.

Isn't Wario viable?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

The Halloween Captain: So, how many Almost Always Viable Characters would you have ideally. A list of them would be best since its important to discuss who is and isn't viable for reasons A, B, and C. So far I count Snake, MK, Marth, D3, Falco, G&W, and R.O.B. not neccesarily in that order. Olimar, Lucario, and DK aren't completely viable. That makes 7 and there are a few other situational midtiers but otherwise I seem to feel thats pretty accurate.

The other problems is Snake and MK still own kinda hard. And in all honesty, I'm not up to scratch on all of those matchups so I'm not super set on all of those. Anyone have thoughts on the third and fourth paragraphs.

Lets hear why Pika, Toon Link, DK, Diddy Kong, Olimar, Lucario, Lucas, and Wario aren't viable...

Also, please defend Marth. I kinda see it, and I'll recognize the viability is there, but I'm not very clear on that character.

 

[AlexX]

Also, please defend Marth. I kinda see it, and I'll recognize the viability is there, but I'm not very clear on that character.

Range, speed, priority, KO power, legitimate combos... I believe the only bad thing about Marth is that they cut his grab range, but I don't main Marth and this info was given to me some time ago, so it may be dated....

 

[Revolutionary1804]

Range, speed, priority, KO power, legitimate combos... I believe the only bad thing about Marth is that they cut his grab range, but I don't main Marth and this info was given to me some time ago, so it may be dated....

it really only takes one move to describe why marth is good: Fair.

 

[Yuna]

I think he wrote it up from his head rather than writing what has been concluded.

And Lucario not viable, wut?

Lucario, not "that" viable. I also regularly say "not that bad". He's not a ****ty character. But he's hardly among the top viable ones in Brawl. He's not Bottom Tier material but it's not like we're seeing tons of Lucarios who aren't Azen do really well at tournaments and he doesn't look good on paper, either.

So why conclude he belongs in the Top crowd in Brawl, the ones capable and most probable of winning entire tournaments?

 

[MysticKenji]

it really only takes one move to describe why marth is good: Dancing Blade.

Fixed .

 

[Yuna]

Also, why do you think Lucario is not viable? In a lot of ways, he's melee Marth (minus wave-dashing, L-cancelling, etc.) with an aura ability. Lucario can combo, chain grab, and has tipper attacks. His F-smash is about the same length as melee Marth's, and his air and ground game are about as strong as marth's, sacrificing about an inch of range for a projectile.

1) He's not "Melee Marth in a lot of ways" just because he's got "tipper abilities" (so does Peach with her Upsmash).
2) Wow, so he can chainrgab a few people, so can many others. His chaingrab isn't even that good.
3) So he can combo a bit. Um... and? So can others. You know those long combos you've seen people doing? The vast majority of those are easily escapable. Seriously, someone once tried to prove me wrong in a debate by showing a video where Lucario finished a 10-hit combo with Aura Sphere and went "Inescapable combo!". Aura sphere!
4) His ground game is not as strong as Marth's, in Melee or in Brawl. If you think that, then you're not qualified for this discussion (no, this is not mindless flaming, this is fact. If you think Lucario's ground game is anywhere near as strong as Marth's in either Melee or Brawl, then you need to educate yourself a lot more on Competitive fighting games in general and Competitive Smash in particular + game balance + how games work + game depth).
5) As opposed to Marth, who's quite fast, Lucario is slow. Well, he's got fast moves, but all of his strong moves are slow.

Stuff.

No.

To those saying Metaknight would be a beast if there is l-canceling, do you guys realize that he has virtually no lag to begin with? It wouldn't speed him up very much, and I don't think his placement would shift cause of it. L-canceling would benefit the slower characters morso than the already ******** fast ones, as it can speed them up tremendously while the fast ones get an ever so slight boost.

Also, keep in mind that the attacks that Meta has are weak in comparison to some of the bigger attacks that have significant lag. If you cut that lag in half, all the sudden those moves become a lot better as they would push people outside of shield grab range and the l-cancel would allow them to recover from it before the opponent can retaliate. Meanwhile, even with auto-canceled moves, you can still shield grab.

Keep that in mind.

He'd still have one of the game's very best (if not best) recoveries. Imagine him with Melee's physics engine with faster falling speeds hitstun, etc., he'd be ****. His recovery would be godly and his combos much better.

So what if he still wouldn't be able to KO that early? He combos you across the friggin' stage and then jumps out and gimps your ****ty Melee recovery!


And then I got tired of skimming stupid posts so please give me a heads up if there was a post in the past 3 pages I should reply to.

 

[Corigames]

And then I got tired of skimming stupid posts so please give me a heads up if there was a post in the past 3 pages I should reply to.

You just now got tired of them? You have a much higher tolerance than me.

 

[EvonJ]

Melee is more balanced. It really comes down to a simple principle. Low tier characters could win against top because of combos and edgeguarding. Now that combos are easier to get out of, that low tier character has to make the tough approach multiple times to get the top tier character into the right range of damage to kill. Priority is much more important in brawl because of this. Also since brawl made it so that it is much easier to get back on the edge, edguarding is nowhere near as effective as it was in melee. The low tier character must pull off a kill move rather than combing into an edgeguard.

Don't get me wrong it is still possible to win with low tier characters, it is just way harder to do now. Its almost like they designed brawl to be less competitive. (lol)

The thing is that melee becomes more balanced the more you play it I think. Once you become better at the game and you are playing with people as good as you it's a very balanced game because all characters can do the same thing. Yes low tier characters can combo and win IF YOU KNOW HOW TO DO THAT. Not everyone knows how to edgeguard and combo right away. People don't just pick up controllers and know what they are doing. Put a first time marth against a first time pichu and I think we all know who will win (besides the funny SDs they will do trying to recover) Also, the more people know about the game the more of a divide there is against balancing. If I, God Forbid, put my little mario against M2K's Marth (or any tourny player, I just want to be dramatic) I'd be lucky to get 10% damage on him in 4 stocks. So if you think of like that, melee is balanced if both players are at about same skill levels. Sometimes good players will get beat, but let's say 95% of the time the better player will win.

Brawl tries to lessen this gap in a sense. I still think I would lose to most tourny players but instead of getting 10% on them I might get a kill and 10%. In the beginning of the game, when both people just pick up a controller for the first time regardless of who they pick it wouldn't be a slaughter. Metaknight might be an exception because of the speed, but a new snake isn't going to just dominate because they picked snake. A lot of people sat Falcon is the worst character in the game, but to completely players he would do fine. And when people get better at Brawl there does become a split between what is an ok character and a character that will have a harder time. But I don't think it's still 95% of the time because of the random factors in Brawl that a better player will win (plus how easy it is to recover and lack of combos). So let's say 75% of the time? I mean, I can't say for sure a percent but to me that is more balanced for a casual player. To a hardcore player it's less balanced. It's all in how you look at it.

 

[Corigames]

I would like to point out that, before I got into competitive play, I would consistently beat my friend's, who frequently played, Marth with my Roy.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I would like to point out that, before I got into competitive play, I would consistently beat my friend's, who frequently played, Marth with my Roy.

i did too but not so much with Roy but with Zelda and Pichu

 

[Dark Sonic]

The thing is that melee becomes more balanced the more you play it I think. Once you become better at the game and you are playing with people as good as you it's a very balanced game because all characters can do the same thing. Yes low tier characters can combo and win IF YOU KNOW HOW TO DO THAT

We're talking about competative play.

Sooo.....they know how to do that.

 

[Smasher89]

I see some peoples lists, and wonders, what makes Ice Climbers not viable, they have short range yes, but their grabs is like 0-KO as soon as they get a grab from a great IC player...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucario, not "that" viable. I also regularly say "not that bad". He's not a ****ty character. But he's hardly among the top viable ones in Brawl. He's not Bottom Tier material but it's not like we're seeing tons of Lucarios

So why conclude he belongs in the Top crowd in Brawl, the ones capable and most probable of winning entire tournaments?

I'm not going to say he's best of the best, What I will say is he's quite viable.

He has combo potential, something people say Brawl lacks. His ground game relatively average at best, but his air game is much, much better. His down and up aerials are good solid moves, his forward aerial and neutral aerial are both good combo starters.

He has a nice projectile, an alternate grab with good knock back, and his throws aren't too shabby either.

He's not the best, but I'd say he's viable for tourneys.

Who aren't Azen do really well at tournaments and he doesn't look good on paper, either.

You know, I know this argument was used before and explained, but remind me again why it doesn't work to use good players using these characters again.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

They are both fairly balanced to me, but melee has a much more expanded metagame which leaves some characters behind like certain low tiers such as Ness/Kirby/Roy nearly unusable in high level tournament play.

Brawl is more like a "Every character has a chance" game since it just came out. Not every character has been exposed to tournament play, but I've seen a couple of odd characters in (offline) tournaments such as cfal and yoshis that perform really well.

 

[Veril]

As an admittedly less experienced smasher I will try to keep this somewhat limited.

First, and this has been said, it is probably too soon to say whether brawl is in fact more balanced than melee. The competitive Melee scene has been around for a long time and it was pretty well established that the truly viable characters (and I know there have been exceptions) were Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Peach and in the right hands (Chudat) iceclimbers. From what I've encountered at the few small scale tournaments I played at in melee, this holds true. Pichu, though adorable, was not a tremendous bad*** and well illustrates the balance issues of Melee... that being he (nearly) always loses... to everyone.

So the test for brawl, in the end, will be whether there are more than 4 (6) characters consistently winning at tournaments. A very low bar for a game with so many characters, but I believe that is the best benchmark for determining relative balance.

If this has been discussed to death, I apologize. There are too many god**** posts for me to read all of them.

Thoughts?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

These guys want a entire cast of viable characters, Veril. Its aparrently commonly believed that almost the entire melee cast was appropriate for competitive play, and while I disagree somewhat with the most common logic being used, the aparent comparison used is Captain Falcon v. Snake as compared to Bowser v. Marth.

I personally believe that Brawl is more balanced because of its high numbers of viable, underappreciated characters (TL, Diddy Kong, Pikachu, etc.) but the melee's-balanced side rightly points out the lack of successes these characters have so far. I believe this is a popularity issue more than anything, to which the melee's-balanced side neglects to respond, as it is impossible to prove one way or another if a character's lack of popularity is the sole factor in why that character does not rank better.

 

[Super Mari0]

at the moment its ****in instable and spam with kirby brings way more succsess than playing with your mains who suck like mario

all you got to do is spam with pits projectiles, he has a reflektor shield so spamming back projectiles is useless, hes got a ****in fast projectile spam and a very strong fsmash spam or forever jab attack by holding down the ****in A button and VIOLA there you have it, you got extra 20% for just holding down the A button

its so easy to win with spam (spamming with pit, kirby, ike, wolf)

its so **** messed up man
MESSED UP I SAY, and in melee, well melee is just indescribably awesome

 

[Endless Nightmares]

If you can't beat spam then you're really bad at this game.

Not talking to YOU I just mean in general.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

If you can't beat spam then you're really bad at this game.

Not talking to YOU I just mean in general.

>___>

Good luck playing ridiculously good, campy players like Overswarm.

Smooth Criminal

 

[JigglyZelda003]

spamming won't get you anywhere in higher lvl play b/c while annoying it is possible to get past, even as bowser. b/c if that was the case Pit would be at the top or at least in the high tier not mid.

 

[IrArby]

Halloween Captain: I would argue that Diddy isn't very viable since his bananas are only a huge problem on FD if you don't remeber to pick them up and throw them back. Using his bananas as an approach is his main advantage. Also, speaking theoritically, I'm guessing he isn't hard to edgeguard if you've got an aerial with decent knockback and priority you can ledgehop into (Snake's Bair, MK's Dair, D3's Bair, R.O.B.'s Bair). Remember, the best characters don't get gimped.
TL has similar problems recovering (not that its bad its just not great) and his Projectiles aren't stupendous since they're all slow. I've beat good TLs with Ike and he gets spammed like its no ones bussiness. He's also a little slow and doesn't have those unpunishable 1-2 hits/jab combo that keeps him from getting punished when he tries to get his hits in. They just don't count for much. Nor is his approach great.
Pikachu's QA only does like 2% when it goes through you and though it can be infinitely canceled; even into a dair or a jump, it racks up damage very slowly and doesn't have KO potential. He's not bad in fact I almost decided to main him but he's simply well rounded IMO. A lot of his aerials last overly long and though he's got a good Fsmash/Dsmash the problem he and every else I've listed here has is that being always viable means competing against MK and Snake. MKs aerials would eat through his QACs and Snake can outrange him or just SnakeDash through him.

I patently hate Olimar so I haven't bothered to learn anything about him I think he's a terrible addition to the game but I say all of that to explain that I can't accurately say why he's not good/bad w/e. I am interested in why people still put Falco up so high since his CG isn't all that special and it doesn't KO obviously. He's got a useful dashattackupsmash but otherwise I don't see much else.

 

[Fletch]

They are both fairly balanced to me, but melee has a much more expanded metagame which leaves some characters behind like certain low tiers such as Ness/Kirby/Roy nearly unusable in high level tournament play.

Brawl is more like a "Every character has a chance" game since it just came out. Not every character has been exposed to tournament play, but I've seen a couple of odd characters in (offline) tournaments such as cfal and yoshis that perform really well.

No