Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Supercakes]

Yeah Brawl right now is pretty unbalanced. MK and Snake are dominating stuff.

I mean in Melee, there were good people that used low tiers, like Bum with DK, Simna with Ness, Trevyn, Skler, Deva w/ Link, Gimpyfish with Bowser, etc...

MK and Snake win most tourneys. The guys that are just below them, like Toon Link, Marth, Dedede don't win a whole lot either, and unless your name is Futile, not a whole lot of Warios win.

That might change when the metagame progresses when we have more AT's, but right now it's pretty obvious that the metagame is dominated by MK and Snake.

 

[IrArby]

Yea literally just got back from a tournament and watched one of the top Melee players in NC (supposedly #1 actually) lose to a less talented Snake (nothing against this guy cause he was still really good too but). He played Wario btw, used awesome DI, and all kinds of mind games while his Snake opponent spammed gernades and dash attacked into upsmash and thats it for the most part. Not only was it terribly boring but it was just aweful to watch.

I don't think the metagames is gonna change much mainly because there aren't any useful ATs to discover. Not to mention Brawl teams took like 7 hours and was also a borefest to watch. I change my standpoint now Brawl is completely unbalanced in favor of MK/Snake. Man **** BRAWL!

 

[Pythag]

Brawl and Melee are pretty much exactly the same.
I just get my choice of how my DK dies.
I can either be infinite chain grabbed, or I can play against a marth. Or a shiek. Or a fox. Or falco.

 

[Amarkov]

Yeah Brawl right now is pretty unbalanced. MK and Snake are dominating stuff.

I mean in Melee, there were good people that used low tiers, like Bum with DK, Simna with Ness, Trevyn, Skler, Deva w/ Link, Gimpyfish with Bowser, etc...

MK and Snake win most tourneys. The guys that are just below them, like Toon Link, Marth, Dedede don't win a whole lot either, and unless your name is Futile, not a whole lot of Warios win.

That might change when the metagame progresses when we have more AT's, but right now it's pretty obvious that the metagame is dominated by MK and Snake.

Because the early Melee metagame wasn't dominated by Sheik and Fox?

 

[St. Viers]

actually, sheik dominated early on, due to the fact that she's good and simple, much like MK is now.

But as of now we're still much farther into "knowing" brawl than we would melee after the same amount of time, because melee set a precedent of what things to look for, and made people think about using the game engine, which going from SSB to melee didn't have, as not many people played 64 at the same level people were playing smash by the introduction of melee

 

[betterthanbonds9]

how long did it take for people to use low tiers WELL in melee?

if that time is anything over a year, then there is still a good 9 months and 1 day until you can expect to see the same thing in brawl.

i think my friend put the difference between melee and brawl best:

brawl: you can see what's gonna happen, but you wont be able to stop it
melee: IF you can see what's gonna happen, you can stop it

 

[JesiahTEG]

Are you serious? DK's amazing in Brawl.

 

[RapidRocker]

Brawl is more balanced because Roy was too powerful in melee plus now taunts have a purpose so they took out the stupid rankings and the stupid skill matches well said hal laboratory and nintendo knew what they were doing

 

[Fletch]

how long did it take for people to use low tiers WELL in melee?

Depends on how you look at it. Early on in Melee's life, Link was considered one of the best characters and was often used, and he is a low-tier.

Brawl is more balanced because Roy was too powerful in melee plus now taunts have a purpose so they took out the stupid rankings and the stupid skill matches well said hal laboratory and nintendo knew what they were doing

What the hell? I hope this is a joke account.

 

[RDK]

Brawl is more balanced because Roy was too powerful in melee plus now taunts have a purpose so they took out the stupid rankings and the stupid skill matches well said hal laboratory and nintendo knew what they were doing

You are not intelligent.

 

[motsalogeL]

You are not intelligent.

QFT.

Spoiler

10Fih3ers!

 

[Adi]

It's obviously a troll you sillies!

 

[Demon Kirby]

I can't believe this thread is still going...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

where does peach stand in the current tiers? and why is sonic ranked so low?

 

[St. Viers]

stuff+

brawl: you can see what's gonna happen, but you wont be able to stop it
melee: IF you can see what's gonna happen, you can stop it

re: stuff: roy and link were considered great when melee came out, as was kirby...so yeah...

 

[IrArby]

re: stuff: roy and link were considered great when melee came out, as was kirby...so yeah...

Melee had alot more potential. MK/Snake are considered tremendously great now and I doubt they'll ever drop below normal great status. From what I've seen the only super problematic imbalance character wise are those two.

Maybe, people could start doing individual bans every match for chars like people do now with stages. Most pros either play both MK and Snake or could easily learn to so if your Snake gets banned you've still got MK and you can ban their whatever. Theres some logistical problems to this like say you've only got one char which would be dumb in Brawl. Maybe to balance it out if you char ban but you lose your stage ban or you don't get to stage counterpick.

I'm just bouncing ideas around so please respond (no flames please) whether or not you think this would add/detract from the current Imbalance. It may add some depth or simply be another annoying thing you've got to sort out before the match.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

"Anybody that honestly believe Snake and Metaknight are in a tier of their own needs to actually try playing the game." - Samurai Panda

"I've said this time and time before, and even in the post above. Snake and MK are amazing, and will probably be in the top 5 characters for the rest of the game's lifespan. But they are NOT in a tier by themselves. They will get worse over time (i.e. learn MK's up-B timing to avoid edgeguards; learn that shielding Snake's Ftilt leaves him open, etc.) but probably won't get substantially worse. Also, they already have clear and demonstrated hard counters to them. To name a couple, ROB owns Snake, and MK is fodder for Snake's up-tilt.

Also, do you wonder why the official tier list hasn't been made yet? Because the SBR understands that the game needs time to evolve. There is no question about that." - Samurai Panda

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=153322&page=304

"No merit? Here's an example for you: Most people complain that Snake's F-tilt always hits them. But if you pretend like Snake had a sword (thus the range), would you still approach him as close as you do? Honestly, once people get used to the range of the F-tilt, they'll stop stupidly running in front of it.

I'm explaining inevitabilities and things that are going to happen in the future. Things I've seen happen time and time again in so many different games. You're saying its just as likely that a new tech, or more likely a new glitch, could be discovered that favors people like Snake (as opposed to favoring lower tiers or something) further unbalancing the game. Hm... which has a better chance of happening... learning how to play against certain characters or discovering an incredibly useful glitch that widens the gap between tiers further... I think I'll go with learning being more likely." - Samurai Panda

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=153322&page=305

 

[Tangy]

every top tier character in melee has been nerfed to ****, and every other character in brawl is ****. except for snake, because snake is the new falcon, according to cort.

 

[Fletch]

every top tier character in melee has been nerfed to ****, and every other character in brawl is ****. except for snake, because snake is the new falcon, according to cort.

Marth is still very good, and Falco isn't bad either. The only high/top tier characters that really got hit hard are Sheik, Peach, and Falcon.

 

[Amarkov]

Marth is still very good, and Falco isn't bad either. The only high/top tier characters that really got hit hard are Sheik, Peach, and Falcon.

Fox says hi.

 

[Corigames]

So does Samus

 

[adumbrodeus]

So does Samus

Huh? Samus high/top tier in melee? That's news to me.

 

[Tujex]

There's no argument...this game is broken. The gap in melee was WAY smaller since, if you knew how to play as character....you could win against other characters. A good DK could own a Fox. A Good Mewtwo stood a chance against Falco. But in this game...Snake is god...plain and simple. All tilts + A combo= kill moves? WTF!? If that's not broken, I don't know what is....

The thing Nintendo doesn't see is that by removing some of the things they did...the make this game rookie friendly and "balanced" made this game THAT much more broken.

 

[Corigames]

Huh? Samus high/top tier in melee? That's news to me.

Well, he mention Falcon who wasn't High/top, he was also mid:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=81928

So... yeah, Samus says "Hi" again.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Well, he mention Falcon who wasn't High/top, he was also mid:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=81928

So... yeah, Samus says "Hi" again.

Oh didn't notice that, probably because of Falco.

The proper response is not to point out another middle tier character, it's to yell at him, like this:

Marth is still very good, and Falco isn't bad either. The only high/top tier characters that really got hit hard are Sheik, Peach, and Falcon.

The captain is high tier? Since when?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

There's no argument...this game is broken. The gap in melee was WAY smaller since, if you knew how to play as character....you could win against other characters. A good DK could own a Fox. A Good Mewtwo stood a chance against Falco. But in this game...Snake is god...plain and simple. All tilts + A combo= kill moves? WTF!? If that's not broken, I don't know what is....

The thing Nintendo doesn't see is that by removing some of the things they did...the make this game rookie friendly and "balanced" made this game THAT much more broken.

Ike says hi my AAA and tilts can own too lol. i don't think the game is broken, just the defense system. player skill is still > the characters themselves IMO.

 

[L__]

Marth is still very good, and Falco isn't bad either. The only high/top tier characters that really got hit hard are Sheik, Peach, and Falcon.

Not to mention all the ugly sticks that were whacked around. Fox for example, tried so hard to avoid the nerf stick that he ran into an Ugly Tree so hard his face was ripped apart and stupid. Ah, the floatiness/lack of waveshines.
​

Ike says hi my AAA and tilts can own too lol. i don't think the game is broken, just the defense system. player skill is still > the characters themselves IMO.

Yeah, because spamming projectiles and camping requires so much skill am I right?​

 

[IrArby]

Ike says hi my AAA and tilts can own too lol. i don't think the game is broken, just the defense system. player skill is still > the characters themselves IMO.

Yea Ike says hi but he says it very slowly much like his AAA and tilts and . . . everything else. The game isn't utterly broken but people have still got to work against the game to play it competitively. The defense system is somewhat broken but offense is totally fixed (meaning it sucks; ie not broken). The defense system merely exploits that more.

I agree player skill plays a greater role in deciding matches than chars but at the competetive level, near equal level pros will almost always lose to whomever between them has a better character. I said something like 2 pages back about this awesome player out of NC, at a tournament last weekend who crushed Melee singles but lost in the Brawl singles finals to a spamming Snake.

Also no one commented about my idea like 1 page back about character bans for individual sets or w/e so I'll assume you all think its a dumb idea and just wanted to spare my feelings. Thanks.

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

*sigh*

I haven't read all 101 pages, so I dunno if this has been mentioned yet, but I'd like to input my voice.

Brawl is more balanced than melee, lets see the first few months of competitive gameplay in Melee...

Sheik was tearing up tournaments, able to chainthrow half the cast, and was comboing everyone. Sheik got into top tier by herself when the tier list came out. People complained that Melee was far imbalanced. Remind you of Brawl?

You all are comparing EARLY BRAWL to LATE MELEE, see what I'm saying? Compare early Melee to early Brawl, you will see that Brawl has a much more diverse tournament standings, EVEN THOUGH it may seem like Snake Snake Snake Snake Metaknight Snake NOW, what will it be like in a couple years? In the days were Sheik was the SUPREME melee smasher, if you said that someone (Mango) would win a tournament with JIGGLYPUFF, and that Sheik would eventually fall? They would laugh in your face. Give Brawl time, and after 5 years of competive play, look back on Melee and Brawl, THEN make your choice, not four months after Brawl is released... It's just not fair to Brawl.

 

[mariofanpm12]

overall, brawl is more balanced, but i must agree that there are still charcters who are better than others. now that the metagame has developed, that's a bit more clear.

 

[AlexX]

overall, brawl is more balanced, but i must agree that there are still charcters who are better than others.

Isn't that the whole reason we have tier lists in the first place?

 

[IrArby]

*sigh*
I haven't read all 101 pages, so I dunno if this has been mentioned yet, but I'd like to input my voice.

Brawl is more balanced than melee, lets see the first few months of competitive gameplay in Melee...

Reading 101 pages would have been a good idea since yes that has been said and refuted only 1-3 pages back.

Coming from SSB to Melee no one was looking for Advanced Techs, they were simply found out over a matter of time. In sharp contrast to those events, coming from Melee to Brawl, EVERYONE has been looking for Advanced Techs.

In short, and yes this point has been made time and time again with many elaboration on this thread that ATs made the Melee Tier list what it is. ATs put fox and falco over shiek. There are no ATs like that in Brawl. There aren't many things left to discover that will upset the current standings of chars that already exist.

In Melee, ATs put chars on top while allowing low tiered chars to be competetive to an extent. Brawl doesn't fit this pattern it has no gamebreaking ATs. All that players have to go on are the intended techniques purposively programmed into the game and a very few things that don't fall under that category explicitly. Some chars have better intentional moves w/e than others and thats the way its gonna stay.

In a Melee without ATs shiek wins. In a Brawl without ATs Snake/MK win. If you can really tell me another reason why skiek doesn't win now than maybe theres hope for Brawl since it is without ATs. Otherwise, I'm guessing the Brawl metagame is near its peak.

Lastly, Melee is respected amongst other fighter games because of it's in depth ATs, Brawl is respected because it follows Melee. That is the main reason that anyone is even giving it a chance (competitively speaking). Sorry if thats a bleak picture of Brawl to come but its an honest one most & pros would probably agree for the most part.

Lastly lastly, I'm not at all worried about being fair to Brawl since I feel that niether Brawl, Sakurai, or Nintendo were very fair to us.

 

[AlexX]

In short, and yes this point has been made time and time again with many elaboration on this thread that ATs made the Melee Tier list what it is. ATs put fox and falco over shiek. There are no ATs like that in Brawl. There aren't many things left to discover that will upset the current standings of chars that already exist.

How can you say for sure that there's not much left to discover? ISJ-ing was just discovered as proof that Brawl still has ATs, they're just different from Melee's (and it makes sense Brawl would have completely different ATs, as it's an entirely different engine, so the experience with finding stuff in Melee is rather meaningless when it comes to finding stuff in Brawl).

 

[Swordplay]

BROKEN BROKEN BROKEN

The only reason more character can even play at tournament level is because there are more characters to choose from.

You must also realize that for the same reason, more characters are pitiful and will never even see tourney play cause they are that bad.

Honestly does a really good link even stand a chance against a have decent snake? NO

I mean comon. Tiers are built at the highest level of play. Even at low levels of play snake players just walk around using tilts and dominate low tier characters like link yoshi and others.

Don't say I hate these characters either. I main most of the characters I am talking about and have been to their character forums.

Some Link and Samus players spend days if not weeks learning the AT's because people claim that those characters are technical. Then a snake player comes along who spent 10 minutes learning him and only uses his tilts and wins. THERE IS SOMETING WRONG HERE!

For all you people who even make the argument about "certain characters are very technical and not noob friendly" shame on you. Link get this this argument alot but for some reason all the other characters in the game end up getting just as many AT's as him.

On a side note I don't hate Link Samus or Yoshi or even Snake. I play all of them and even devote much of my time trying to show that Bottom tier characters are better than people think by beating really good people online with them.

I am just telling it how it is. This game is really broken. Most of the At's have been found because unlike in melee, people started looking for them in brawl right when the game came out and any new ones that will be discovered will probably be extremely situational and probably not advance the metagame as much.

Potentials are being reached you will realize if you already haven't that sakuri developed the characters for party games which means ffa and team battles not 1v1's which is where the competitive scene is. The 1v1 aspect of smash brothers will always be broken as characters are not designed for it.

It is unfortunate that is the way it has to be but it really is.

Now for the good news.

The game is still fun because it is super smash brothers and so many people enjoy this game that it really has a wonderful community, probably one of the best communities in the competitive gaming world that I know of.

For this reason, even though the game is so broken, because wi-fi has allowed us to further our abilities to expand and interact with this wonderful community, I still find myself playing SSBB almost every day of the week. At least that gives my some sort of peacy and harmony within this game.

 

[Sliq]

Recently at the Georgia Melee tournament I beat a Sheik that obviously knew what it was doing with my Roy.

I lost with my Bowser vs. a Metaknight that played like an idiot, but I couldn't touch him through his Tornado, Up , and Glide attack spam.

If I can beat someone who knows what they are doing in Melee with a low tier, but can't in Brawl simply due to characteristics of said character, how the **** is Brawl more balanced?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

First, Brawl FFA is not balanced, 5 minutes with Pika v. Sonics online in the "time matches" will show just how unbalanced FFA can be. Second, Snake is really hard to learn, but rewarding. He acts counter-intuitively to the movesets of other characters, so he can't be picked up in five minutes. Third, the reason why Snake has such powerful tilts and neutrals is to make up for the fact that all his Smashes are like b-attacks (the RPG being like a Falcon punch).

 

[XHMI]

Ike

this one word debunks all concpiracies
I use toon link and lucas, I use AT's, Combos, chaingrabbing, and have good enough reflex's to shield and roll at the right time
I have a 10 year old friend who uses Ike, and only shields once in the entire round

I have trouble beating him...
{Goes and cries in a corner}

 

[Marty_a.k.a._QueST]

uumm lol @ ^ but I feel your pain let's see I would pester an Ike with projectiles to make him charge in then dodge his running attack or SH F air or w/e he uses then hit him with a d smash or f smash you're choice really anything you do should work he's at a disadv antage lulz

I believe Brawl is more balanced than Melee. On Melee it was impossible for some characters to have a chance to beat others, but in Brawl certain people were toned up and certain people were toned down so that everybody is on a somewhat more level playing field. With the buffing/ nerfing many characters now lack that advantage that kept other characters from being able to beat them. Now Everyone stands a chance yes even if it's a bad matchup. How do I overcome a bad matchup you ask well it's simple. USE YOUR BRAIN :D It's a very valuable tool and what sets us apart from CPU's. Mix up your approach a bit
don't do what Normal people who play your character of choice do so you can confuse your opponent. (Seems I went to far off topic xD) IN all honesty In Brawl it's the way you play not who you pick.

 

[Black Waltz]

Ike

this one word debunks all concpiracies
I use toon link and lucas, I use AT's, Combos, chaingrabbing, and have good enough reflex's to shield and roll at the right time
I have a 10 year old friend who uses Ike, and only shields once in the entire round

I have trouble beating him...
{Goes and cries in a corner}

if you cant shield and roll correctly, you're not very good. and your statement is false because combos do not exist in brawl.

 

[thumbswayup]

overall, brawl is more balanced, but i must agree that there are still charcters who are better than others. now that the metagame has developed, that's a bit more clear.

Overall, you're an idiot.