Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[JigglyZelda003]

in melee, before i found out about tiers and such, i alwasy thought every character could win against any other character and it was dependant on player skill. but in brawl some characters like CF really seem impossible to win with in certain situations reguardless of player skill.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

oops i didn't quote it right sorry XD and sorry for double post

 

[Proverbs]

This is probably already said and I haven't read all 97 pages. Now that you realize that I might be saying nothing useful, let me throw my two cents out there.

I think the reason people are saying that it's more balanced than Melee is because many lower tier characters such as Zelda or Ness, whereas higher tier characters such as Fox or Sheik were nerfed. Because of this people feel that they can main anyone as the bad characters were brought to being playable, and the good characters were nerfed a little to "even things out." However, they seem to miss that great characters that were viable mains as middle tier characters such as Captain Falcon, Peach, and Samus were all nerfed and are now exteremely hard to play (maybe with the exception of Peach, her I'm not too sure about, but definitely Falcon and Samus doesn't look so great either).

People also seem to feel that they have more options with their mains as there are more characters to choose from. This is an issue with roster size and not balance in general.

Now that I'm thinking about it, Melee's roster does seem more balanced. At least the low or bottom tier characters could be good counterpicks against some of the top or high tier characters making them still even out. However, I never played Melee tournaments so I do not have much intelligence to offer here.

I just thought that some of the previous information such as why people think Brawl is more balanced could help.

 

[IrArby]

I'm sure that play will be pretty balanced even if all the chars aren't. The fact that you can pick a new char in a few hours and be pretty affluent means that all the counters that chars have are going to played. (I don't know what chars this would be but) A solid collection of chars would be to have One. A char who counters snake, another to counter MK, if neither of those chars CG than thats another char to have, and I guess either snake, metaknight, or both. Thats only 4 chars but playing 4chars well in Melee and I mean like tournament worthy you can rely on either of those chars to win good was uncommon.

Also, Melee top/high tiers had really no low tier counters. Everyone in Brawl has counters so that another thing that will keep Brawl more balanced

 

[missingnomaster]

I'm sure that play will be pretty balanced even if all the chars aren't. The fact that you can pick a new char in a few hours and be pretty affluent means that all the counters that chars have are going to played. (I don't know what chars this would be but) A solid collection of chars would be to have One. A char who counters snake, another to counter MK, if neither of those chars CG than thats another char to have, and I guess either snake, metaknight, or both. Thats only 4 chars but playing 4chars well in Melee and I mean like tournament worthy you can rely on either of those chars to win good was uncommon.

Also, Melee top/high tiers had really no low tier counters. Everyone in Brawl has counters so that another thing that will keep Brawl more balanced

Snake, Metaknight, Falco, G&W, Marth, and a few others have no low tier counters.

 

[Corigames]

Also, Melee top/high tiers had really no low tier counters. Everyone in Brawl has counters so that another thing that will keep Brawl more balanced

Yes

No

Now, anyone, and probably everyone, can say, "But coreygames, you didn't put any information. At least he did!"

Lie. No he didn't. Now, it's fully possible for someone who plays a low tier to BEAT someone who plays a high tier, but that doesn't mean they counter them. In counteraction to your point though, hand someone a controller set to metaknight and send them into a match. They are probably going to do well. Hand someone a controller with Falco in melee, and they will probably flail around harder than the first time anyone picks up DDR. No one in Brawl on the low tier side CAN beat metaknight. Someone who has played the game since release will still have problems with a metaknight where as I can't do crap with Fox in melee, even though I've seen and played against him extensively.

Brawl is much less balanced. (Sorry if it looked like I was calling you out)

 

[IrArby]

coreygames: I'm lost on your logic here. Someone whose played against MK extensively will have problems where as (whomever you play in Melee) can't do crap with Fox in melee That sort of speaks agianst your point since however extensively you've played Fox still pwns you (sorry if that sounds mean). So Melee Fox pwns but agianst MK in Brawl you'll simply "have problems" . Which equates to Melee is more Unbalanced.

As far as counter MK Snake w/e I'm really not sure who these counters are (as I said cause I don't play Brawl extensively) but EVERYONE on the Brawl forums mentions possible counters for Snake but not so much for MK. This strange cause most "Predictive Tiers" put Snake on top yet they say MK wins in that matchup and has no real Counters whereas Snake has like 3 or more. This is just what I've seen people post so don't quote me.

Anyway that isn't my point. My point is from what everyone is saying there are chars in Mid High w/e tiers who counter snake and and some who counter mk. The reason I even brought up low tiers is cause someone posting b4 me said melee low tiers were good counterpicks against the high tiers which is just wrong. In Brawl I'm not specifying which chars in which tiers counter MK Snake whoever since I don't know but I'm told they exist.

 

[Zankoku]

There are characters in mid/high tiers who counter Fox and Falco in Melee, too.

 

[thumbswayup]

Yes there are, and his name is Marth.

 

[Dark Sonic]

coreygames: I'm lost on your logic here. Someone whose played against MK extensively will have problems where as (whomever you play in Melee) can't do crap with Fox in melee That sort of speaks agianst your point since however extensively you've played Fox still pwns you (sorry if that sounds mean). So Melee Fox pwns but agianst MK in Brawl you'll simply "have problems" . Which equates to Melee is more Unbalanced.

You misread his post. "I can't do crap with Fox in melee" is referring to Fox's insane learning curve, while Metaknight is a pick up and play character.

As far as counter MK Snake w/e I'm really not sure who these counters are (as I said cause I don't play Brawl extensively) but EVERYONE on the Brawl forums mentions possible counters for Snake but not so much for MK. This strange cause most "Predictive Tiers" put Snake on top yet they say MK wins in that matchup and has no real Counters whereas Snake has like 3 or more. This is just what I've seen people post so don't quote me.

And the majority of those "possible" counters are refuted in later arguements.

They put Snake higher because he's winning more tournaments, largely due to his large advantage on Metaknight, who ***** all of the lower tiered characters and will likely make it to the semifinals or so just to end up fighting a Snake player.

Anyway that isn't my point. My point is from what everyone is saying there are chars in Mid High w/e tiers who counter snake and and some who counter mk. The reason I even brought up low tiers is cause someone posting b4 me said melee low tiers were good counterpicks against the high tiers which is just wrong. In Brawl I'm not specifying which chars in which tiers counter MK Snake whoever since I don't know but I'm told they exist.

They don't exist. Some people have made arguements, but they've largely been refuted and aren't really showing up in practice. Though some of the high tiers may have lower tiered counters.

And for a few examples in melee, Pikachu had a 6 on Captain Falcon, Young Link had a 6 on Peach, and Zelda had a 6 on Jigglypuff.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=92025

 

[Corigames]

Sorry, I think I even got confused when I re-read my post. Let me get straight to my point.

Brawl: No matter how long someone plays, they will always have problems fighting against a character higher on the tier list. That's just it. (As of right now. I'm not saying it will always this way, but it seems like it)

Melee: If you play a low tier, you at an obvious disadvantage (Just like in Brawl). If you have enough skill though, fighting a good Fox with your amazing Pichu won't matter.

As of right now, the best way to win in Brawl is to play a high tier character. People don't know how to get the lower ones to play better, or good enough, to win tournaments. That's all I'm trying to say. When someoen finds something that gets those characters a fighting chance...

 

[IrArby]

There are characters in mid/high tiers who counter Fox and Falco in Melee, too.

Who?
Fox? . . .
Falco? Marth and arguably jiggs
Shiek? No really that I can think of but I don't play her
Marth? Shiek and Cpt. Falcon are soft counters though Ken considers Falcon a true counter (more than anything its cause hes played Isai's Falcon)

Also as a Marth entusiaist I'm enclined to say that in the hands of a master Marth is the best char and requires a lot of thinking and adapting so for all you Brawler who believe Brawl is all about thinking and being smart go back and play Melee Marth and see how much thinking you think that you think.

Oh yea I agree with thumbswayup
According to M2K highest level Marth is = to Fox. I'll even find the quote if people wanna hates and not take my word for it.

 

[thumbswayup]

The spacies are said to counter Sheik, but I think she goes pretty even with them (especially if you watch what KDJ did to M2k's fox, ****ing insane). I believe Marth is the best character as well, mostly because of M2k and how he just ***** everything in his path with it. I don't think a single Fox/Falco has consistently (or ever) beaten his marth. Sheik and Falcon have an advantage over him, but it's not like they're hopeless matchups. All Marth has to do is get Falcon off the stage and he's ****ed plus you can do some sick combos on Sheik.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Ice Climbers was a Shiek counter as well.

Link and Ganondorf had even matchups with Marth and Peach.
Seriously, lower tier characters didn't have it that bad in melee. I'm not talking about super bottom tiers (they have it bad in both games), but the guys in the upper parts of low tier actually had some decent matchups against the high tiered characters, even advantages on some of them. The most you can really hope for in brawl is some even matchups, or slight disadvantages.

 

[thumbswayup]

Actually I've heard that Sheik is even with Icies, but I'm not sure if that's true.

Yoshi also had an even matchup with Marth.

In Brawl, you will never see a captain falcon beat a metaknight. Not ever.

 

[Samochan]

Bowser is suprisingly tough matchup to take on as peach compared to their tier placements. He simply refuses to die and peach dies like 100% earlier than he does. >_>

Pichu suprises fast fallers like no other, noobguard involves bthrow to fsmash and unless they're good at smash di, bye bye fox/falco. Pichu's uair is too good. ^^

Zelda, Link and Ylink do also very well against peach. D: Dunno bout DK, his sucky shield begs peach to dsmash.. but he does have good matchup vs fox at least, dunno how much lasers or falco's combo style hinder him.

And the mid tiers are even better than bottom tiers. >.> And Luigi is a beast. Seriously.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well, Ice Climbers is often considered a Soft counter, due to the insanely easy chaingrab and how Shiek's grab game is hindered by Nana (or Popo if you grab the wrong one). The chaingrab can even be done without Nana being there, and at a very wide range of percentages. But yeah, Shiek can still do some crazy stuff to them anyway.

 

[Corigames]

Who?

In my experience, Samus does well. Her CC ability keeps her from getting comboed or set up to being comboed. Her options in recovery keeps her from being easily gimped. Plus, she could keep pressure on him from a distance AND up close. She did well against him and Falco.

 

[IrArby]

Yoshi also had an even matchup with Marth.

I've heard this but I don't see why. Really I'm asking more than stateing so feel free to explain. I'd think Yoshi has less range (Marth's biggest **** asset) he has a terrible grab, a terrrible shield to won't even let you sheildgrab, and if you hit him during his second jump hes dead or so I understand. I know he has the DJC aerials, Insta Edge-Grab, a good wavedash, and I've seen Fumi vids (****ing amazing) but I don't see it as even overall.

I'll have to look up the KDJ shiek vs. M2K fox matches. Funny how nothing in Brawl gets described like that. Why am I on the Brawl Boards agian? Oh yeah everyone else right.

 

[St. Viers]

I've heard that it's only a slight marth advantage, due to yoshi having similar range, combo ability, and grab range, as well as a double jump that counters marths combos.

His projectile is extremely versitile, and he racked up damage like a beast. His lack of a 3rd jump messed him up, as well as the inability to jump from his shield...

 

[thumbswayup]

Yeah, first KDj beat M2k's Marth with Sheik, then M2k switched to Fox and KDJ ***** it into the ground. I believe he 2 or 3 stocked him on FD. You need to see it.

As for Yoshi vs Marth, I'm not sure exactly. I have a friend who mains Yoshi (he's decent, he can wavedash/waveland/L-cancel all the time and stuff) and that's what he told me. And I have seen him beat very good Marths, some that I have trouble beating. I think it's cause Marth gets easily combo'd by a lot of the cast and I guess Yoshi is no exception. Youtube Fumi Yoshi, he is the best in the world and he ***** Marths (GREAT MARTHS) like it's nothing.

 

[Fawriel]

Fumi's Yoshi is a beautiful, beautiful thing.


Final argument:

Brawl nerfed Yoshi.
-> Brawl's balance is ********.

[/thread]

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Snake doesn't seem like the end-all destroyer anymore that I thought he was a month ago. People are learning to beat him. I'm pretty sure he's just the flavor of the week at the moment, like Ike was at the beginning.

 

[Zankoku]

As far as I can tell, the balance in Brawl and Melee are flipped. Melee had its selection of two or three characters that couldn't compete (STOP bringing up Gimpyfish/Taj/whatever). Brawl has its selection of two or three characters that are significantly better than the rest.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Anyone who thought Ike was top tier at any point ever is ****ing ********.

 

[thumbswayup]

Ike is sooooooo bad.

 

[Demon Kirby]

Fumi's Yoshi is a beautiful, beautiful thing.


Final argument:

Brawl nerfed Yoshi.
-> Brawl's balance is ********.

[/thread]

Holy ****...

... someone that plays Yoshi.

 

[ZoSo]

Yes there are, and his name is Marth.

Marth doesn't counter Fox or Falco. That's like saying Fox counters Sheik. There's a reason why M2K ***** everybody with Marth; it's because he's the best player in the world. You're forgetting that he beat PC Chris pretty badly with Fox at Pound 3. Does Fox counter Fox/Falco too?

Youtube Fumi Yoshi, he is the best in the world and he ***** Marths (GREAT MARTHS)

Japanese Marths.

And yes, ICs have a small advantage over Sheik (it becomes more pronounced when wobbling is permitted). Sheik is still a vastly superior character.

 

[thumbswayup]

I'm pretty sure Marth has a slight advantage over Fox, mainly on FD where he can 0-death him with ease. The same goes for Falco. Are you saying they both go even with him or that they both have an advantage over him?

 

[ZoSo]

I think Fox goes very even with Marth, but I would agree that it's somewhat stage dependant. Falco goes even with Marth until he gets hit off the stage. The same goes for pretty much all of his matchups.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

I think I know what you mean. There are large differences between some characters. But for right now, we can't make any assumptions, as you've already heard.

 

[redzoneNRG]

I think Melee people just like to pump up their game..Ankoku says they are 2-3 characters in Melee that CANT compete. Whoever believes that is just idiotic. Him saying that gives me the right to say Every character in Brawl can compete.

 

[IrArby]

I think Melee people just like to pump up their game..Ankoku says they are 2-3 characters in Melee that CANT compete. Whoever believes that is just idiotic. Him saying that gives me the right to say Every character in Brawl can compete.

"IrArby replies with an equally dumb post"

I think Brawl noobs like to talk like they actually know what theyre talking about...redzone (isn't that a deodorant?) CANT compete. Whoever doesn't believe that is just idiotic. Him saying that gives me the right to say "redzone please don't talk about Melee you don't know what your saying and were aiming for intelligent discussion here."

Anyway, I've seen Fumi's vids before and I almost picked him up as a secondary but opted for Falco for some reason (probably cause of one of Forwards vids).

What exactly are people doing to beat Snake now? Boxcutter? I've had this feeling for about a week now that most of the useful ATs have been found so no ones going to vastly improve their game. Which leaves people to work on strategies agianst other chars. I think chars will even out a bit more as time passes.

 

[Zankoku]

I think Melee people just like to pump up their game..Ankoku says they are 2-3 characters in Melee that CANT compete. Whoever believes that is just idiotic. Him saying that gives me the right to say Every character in Brawl can compete.

What part about that is idiotic? Are there more characters? Fewer? Fact of the matter is, you can't use a single person to say "See? This character can TOO do well!" And by the same token, you can't use a single tournament without Snake/Meta Knight in one of the top placements to say "See? This character ISN'T dominating the environment!"

 

[ShadowLink84]

What ankoku said.
The freaking competitive scene for Smash really took a hit this game.
in melee yes Fox, Sheik, Marth were considered top tier and they did do well. Unlike MK and Snake, they didn't necessarily counter over 5/6 of the character roster.

Yes Fox Sheik and Marth did typically win tournaments, but that didn't mean they were the only competitive characters.

link could actually win against a Marth.
Marth was only a soft counter for him.
Sheik was the only hard counter for Link (I think).
This time around however how many hard counters does Link have?
The soft counters also icnreased but they have a mucyh greater impact than they did in melee.


In brawl if you have a disadvantage it does far more than in melee.
For example I faced my friend's nubby Snake as Sonic.
I was clearly more skilled but guess who won? his snake. Simply because the disadvantages are just that much greater.


For example if I did things right I could beat a Marth with Link.
The diadvantage was there but it didn't hurt Link so badly. I could still 3 stock a Marth, I could still possibly wina tournament with Link in a place filled with Falco,Marth and Fox.

In brawl however this is much more different.
I am never going to beat a Luigi with Sonic if that Luigi has a little more than half the skill I do.
I am never going to beat an MK with Sonic either.
In melee maybe this would be possible but in Brawl? Hell no.
Its the fact that the imbalance is so great that really is making me wonder if I should should hack the game and try to make it more balanced.


If I am link in a tournament filled with MK and Snake I sure as hell won't make it past the second round.
Those two characters dominate the competitive scene much more greatly than the top tier characters in melee.

*is contemplating hacking the game*

 

[JigglyZelda003]

lol shadow link i feel that way sometimes too.

 

[redzoneNRG]

But to me, Im just getting tired cause it seems like instead of " intellegent debate" Im hearing excuses on the part of pro-meleers.

Shadowlink says that he will NEVER beat a Luigi or MK with Sonic. And when you say absolutes like that its crushing. It may be tougher, but when you use the words never, then to me I get the impressions that your just not very skilled, and use character matchups to complain for your shortcoming while still trying to proclaim how good you are.

And to Iraby , the Redzone is a football reference, as well as a deodorant, but thats not what I was aiming for. Im simply saying, you can say Melee characters were counters or what not, But in al honestly the bottom half of the roster didnt compete.

And you cant use people who were really good with bottom tier characters, because Ankoku says 1 person doesnt make an exception.

 

[IrArby]

These aren't excuses, they're reasons. Big difference.

I'm guessing that Ankoku/Shadowlink are probably very skilled especially since hes been on this site more than a month or w/e. Yea speaking in absolutes is not always wise but this game has made all the things that Anokoku/Shadowlink said common practice rules that are 98.3% accurate. They never said they were good thats not why they posted.

Last two paragraphs said stuff that totally contradicted your earlier post about you disageeing about Anokoku saying 2-3 chars who CANT compete. Now your saying they really can't (kinda of contrary) with the whole "1 person doesn't make an exception arguement." If you just want to be pointlessly argumentive post in the Official Brawl Tier List Discussion thread.

Someone posted about a page back about how people were beating Snake in tourneys now I was wondering what kind of chars/strats are they using?

 

[redzoneNRG]

I wouldnt know what strategies are being used to beat Snakes. My group only go to small local size tournaments that wouldnt count much here. No really outstanding Snake players.

When I do play them, Its more of a disruption and waiting game for all I intent. As Ness, I just use my projectiles to disrupt his landmines, and PSI Magnet wave to push his gernaded back towards him. But I cant really say cause I havent played any truly good snake

 

[ShadowLink84]

But to me, Im just getting tired cause it seems like instead of " intellegent debate" Im hearing excuses on the part of pro-meleers.[/quote
Excuses?

Shadowlink says that he will NEVER beat a Luigi or MK with Sonic. And when you say absolutes like that its crushing. It may be tougher, but when you use the words never, then to me I get the impressions that your just not very skilled, and use character matchups to complain for your shortcoming while still trying to proclaim how good you are.

Wrong. I was quite skilled in melee and I used to main Link.
With Sonic I do very well. However when I go up against someone like Luigi or Mk or Snake, even if they are less skilled than me the inherent disadvantages are just too much to make up for no matter how skilled you are.
As I said before in Melee Link was considered LOW tier.
Marth was Top.
big tier difference and yet Link was still capable of winning a tournament filled with Marth's and Falco's. He still had a chance of winning even if the opponent had the same skill despite the fact he was at a disadvantage.

Sonic however (I consider him mid butother say low) is low tier while Luigiis at best low high.
And he gets completely destroyed. Completely and utterly destroyed.
Doesn't matter if I am more ksilled I will still get destroyed.
Hell at leas tif Link was more skilled than a Sheik he could win despite the fact it was a hard counter.
In this game even if you are more skilled you still lose.

If you are getting the idea that I am unskilled because I know for a fact that over 3/4ths of the roster can't do a **** thing to Snake or MK, then really such logic must exist in some otherworld.
Heck even if I sucked balls at this game what I said still reigns true.

And to Iraby , the Redzone is a football reference, as well as a deodorant, but thats not what I was aiming for. Im simply saying, you can say Melee characters were counters or what not, But in al honestly the bottom half of the roster didnt compete.

Because they were UNDERPLAYED bot because they weren't competitively viable.
Dr. Mario had a good number of advantages against high tier characters but he was underplayed.
unlike Brawl, low tiered character were competitively viable in an environment filled with Fox, Sheik, Marth and Falco.

In Brawl however they CANNOT compete in an environment with Snake and MK.
You have far more characters that simply aren't competitivelyviable its just that simple.

And you cant use people who were really good with bottom tier characters, because Ankoku says 1 person doesnt make an exception.

Except in melee a person who was really good with Link was capable of winning.
This reigns true for Germ, Deva and many other Link mains who have beaten top tier characters with their low tier Link..


In melee the amount of characters capable of competing at high level play is much greater than Brawl.

brawl has nothing that would provide such an ability (none that we know of) and until such a thing as amazing as dashdancing and L canceling occurs, the tournament scene will probably remained dominated by those 2 or 3 characters in top tier.