JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
there must be some merit to him right? i mean i thought Jigglypuff was now the worst in the game cause of infinite airdodge and such but i found she's not so CF must have something.
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Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?
- Thread starter Yuna
- Start date
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Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Captain Falcon has speed and....a little range on his uair (though it still has low priority and won't be beating many attacks). His dair to knee is cool and all, but how often is a grounded person going to be hit by a dair in brawl, especially since Falcon doesn't move that fast in the air anymore.
And Pichu had some pretty sick **** too. **** combos on fast fallers+great Nair edgeguards=epic. What really hurt him the most was his light weight and little range (hurting himself was only bad because of his light weight.)
Relatively speaking, I think Falcon is worse than Pichu, when compared to the good characters.
And Pichu had some pretty sick **** too. **** combos on fast fallers+great Nair edgeguards=epic. What really hurt him the most was his light weight and little range (hurting himself was only bad because of his light weight.)
Relatively speaking, I think Falcon is worse than Pichu, when compared to the good characters.
He has higher knockback on alot of moves, as compared to his Melee form, which along with lack of L cancel takes away alot of his 'combo' potential. He can still kinda juggle with U-airs.there must be some merit to him right? i mean i thought Jigglypuff was now the worst in the game cause of infinite airdodge and such but i found she's not so CF must have something.
The knockback can be used to get people off the edges, and Falcon has a decent edgeguarding game, with his side-B meteor, up-B's higher knockback killing people from the edge of FD at 130%, or just plain stage spiking with it, and D-airs too, with the recovery to make it back to the stage from it.
@.@; I guess that's his merit.
Oh and Falcon Punch vs recovering opponents is good too, I guess.
gantrain05
Smash Master
no way C.falcon > Ganon sadly and whats with the pichu comments? pichu wasnt really all that bad if you used him right in melee, i'd have to say that there were worse chars than pichu in melee. maybe mewtwo kirby, and possibly some others.
Rapid_Assassin
Smash Master
The difference between top and bottom is basically the same in both games. However, this game seems to have a small top, small bottom, and huge middle tier so far. If you get rid of the top and the bottom, the game is pretty balanced. Also, there's a larger percentage of the cast that's middle tier up when compared with Melee.
Sliq
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2006
- Messages
- 4,871
You are so wrong.
Rapid_Assassin
Smash Master
Ganon is much better than Captain Falcon. Ganon is at least playable because of the amount of damage he does and kill moves. Captain Falcon has no priority, few fast kill moves, crappy recovery, i honestly don't see anything going for him.
Demon Kirby
Smash Champion
He still has his down taunt...
Rapid_Assassin
Smash Master
Yeah, and reverse reverse falcon punch! I guess Falcon is playable.
Yeah, watching Snake f-tilt all over creation and MK shuttle-loop 5 times in a row is grade-A entertainment.
And Fox / Falco / Sheik weren't good solely because they were fast, although that was a big part of it. Fox was a combination of speed AND overwhelming power. Falco had SHL, pillar, and shine. Sheik has ridiculous comboability and priority. Marth--well, he's just ****.
I reverse Falcon punched YOU! CAPTAIN FALCON FOR GOD TIER.
yeah, common misconception, Falco was fast vertically but horizontally he was probably only moderately fast. He was just always able to make up for that with extreme stage control from SHL.
This is a disappointing argument. Have you even been to college? Professors make mistakes. Textbooks are often flat-out wrong. The only thing you can ever really trust is the facts, and the only way you can seperate facts from inaccurate opinions is by putting them to the test.
To answer your question, I wouldn't "trust" either one. If we were simply engaging in small talk over a glass of fine wine then I'd just take their word for it, but if I were betting my life on my knowledge of Quantum Physics then what I'd do is go test things out for myself and see how they really work. Theory is nice in that it gives you a head start, but practice is what actually matters in the long run.
Brawl is the same way. You wanna know if Marth is overpowered? Go play him yourself and compare him to the other characters.
How do you think Yuna came to those conclusions? We've been out testing them for 7+ years. If you can't trust the group of peopke who've been doing the testing since the community first started, who can you trust? Do you really think your judgment is better than someone who knows the ins and outs of Smash?
Honestly, these pro-Brawl people have the dumbest arguments.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
SRK can suck a wet one.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
RDK, I've seen you around the forums. If you are going to criticise the pro-Brawl arguements as being dumb, your arguements need to be a heck of a lot more intelligent.
Brawl without ATs is probably more balanced than Melee without ATs. Most arguements for Melee balance, after all, seem to use the assumption of melee ATs balancing out the overall bad qualities of a character. With 35 characters, I am willing to say the extremes are less balanced than in a game with 25 characters, since probability would require it.
However, somehow the game just feels more balanced. I am sorry I can't explain it better, but it feels like the developers put a lot of effort into balance somehow, like the way they nerfed a lot of powerhouses and buffed a lot of weak characters, with the occasional mistake (jiggs, C. falcon).
P.S. there are univerals ATs in Brawl.
Brawl without ATs is probably more balanced than Melee without ATs. Most arguements for Melee balance, after all, seem to use the assumption of melee ATs balancing out the overall bad qualities of a character. With 35 characters, I am willing to say the extremes are less balanced than in a game with 25 characters, since probability would require it.
However, somehow the game just feels more balanced. I am sorry I can't explain it better, but it feels like the developers put a lot of effort into balance somehow, like the way they nerfed a lot of powerhouses and buffed a lot of weak characters, with the occasional mistake (jiggs, C. falcon).
P.S. there are univerals ATs in Brawl.
You say MY arguments need to be more intelligent? Kinda ironic. Let's take a look at your arguments, shall we?
1. "Brawl is more balanced than Melee without AT's."
How so? As you stated, probability suggests that the game with more characters (and therefore loads of more variables) is most likely more imbalanced.
2. "The AT's of Melee didn't help to smooth out the bad qualities of characters and only helped buffer the better characters." Also untrue. As clearly seen in Brawl, characters like Bowser and Ganon suffer terribly and are even WORSE thanks to the removal of L-cancelling. Laggy characters are still laggy. Also, characters like Bowser are somehow still weaker damage and knockback-wise than horribly overpowered characters like Snake and Wolf.
3. "Brawl just feels more balanced (there are universal AT's in Brawl)."
To say that it "feels more balanced" is an appeal to emotion and subjectivity and has no basis in facts. And suddenly you throw your original stance out the window and say Brawl is balanced because it has universal AT's? Like what? ISJR'ing, which is a hell of a lot more useful to some characters than others?
Wonderful debate skills there, Cap.
1. "Brawl is more balanced than Melee without AT's."
How so? As you stated, probability suggests that the game with more characters (and therefore loads of more variables) is most likely more imbalanced.
2. "The AT's of Melee didn't help to smooth out the bad qualities of characters and only helped buffer the better characters." Also untrue. As clearly seen in Brawl, characters like Bowser and Ganon suffer terribly and are even WORSE thanks to the removal of L-cancelling. Laggy characters are still laggy. Also, characters like Bowser are somehow still weaker damage and knockback-wise than horribly overpowered characters like Snake and Wolf.
3. "Brawl just feels more balanced (there are universal AT's in Brawl)."
To say that it "feels more balanced" is an appeal to emotion and subjectivity and has no basis in facts. And suddenly you throw your original stance out the window and say Brawl is balanced because it has universal AT's? Like what? ISJR'ing, which is a hell of a lot more useful to some characters than others?
Wonderful debate skills there, Cap.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
1) You misquoted me on #2. Badly.
2) I am saying while the extremes are greater because of mathmatical probability, Brawl is generally more balanced.
3) I use the feel of a character when determining how it fights against another. I haven't memorized every moveset and their flaws yet. If you want to comprehensive defend your opinion with stats, go ahead.
Also, you are great at bashing an arguement. Now lets hear why you think melee is more balanced without ATs than Brawl, RDK.
P.S. - technically, you should compare the lowest of the top five to the highest of the bottom five, so as to be fair to the fact that the roster is larger.
2) I am saying while the extremes are greater because of mathmatical probability, Brawl is generally more balanced.
3) I use the feel of a character when determining how it fights against another. I haven't memorized every moveset and their flaws yet. If you want to comprehensive defend your opinion with stats, go ahead.
Also, you are great at bashing an arguement. Now lets hear why you think melee is more balanced without ATs than Brawl, RDK.
P.S. - technically, you should compare the lowest of the top five to the highest of the bottom five, so as to be fair to the fact that the roster is larger.
Balance isn't everything. Bomberman 64's multiplayer was perfectly balanced. But it wasn't a very deep game. Depth of learning curve is what makes a game competitive and thus fun in the long run.
Bomberman 64 was a hella fun party game to play while intoxicated and with a bunch of high school friends, and it was also as balanced as balanced gets, but I don't go out and do B64 money matches.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
Good point, AltF4Warrier. Actually, I am willing to admit that I need to get off the forums now, because I just can't seem to make any good arguements at the moment.
I will say this: Even though Snake and Metaknight are cheap, they do represent the diersity of characters in Brawl that just wasn't present in melee, even if the characters are uneven. Metaknight is a flying swordsman, and Snake is a one man army. Rarely do they come together in a fighting game, but its freaking amazing when they do, and make a very unique fighting experience to the point where balance might be overlookable.
I will say this: Even though Snake and Metaknight are cheap, they do represent the diersity of characters in Brawl that just wasn't present in melee, even if the characters are uneven. Metaknight is a flying swordsman, and Snake is a one man army. Rarely do they come together in a fighting game, but its freaking amazing when they do, and make a very unique fighting experience to the point where balance might be overlookable.
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
DAAAAAYYYYUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUM
Samochan
Smash Master
How does balance in non-advanced tech melee and brawl matter in smashboards? <_> And how would we exacly judge an advanced tech from non-advanced? Shieldgrab is advanced cause it's not shown on the "How to play" video (only described that you can grab via shield button + a) and noobs never use shieldgrab. >_> Crouch canceling is not advanced nor is DI, since noobs either cc everything and smash buttons afterwards or they always press up on the joystick. Up b recovery is too advanced though to do seemingly, even when it's shown on the how to play vid.
FishkeeperTimmay!
Smash Ace
Don't start this agi...
D-D-D-DAAAAAAYYYYYYYYUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
WastingPenguins
Smash Ace
D...did someone on Smashboards just say that they'd trust their own quantum physics testing over the expert opinion of scientists?
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Fletch
Smash Master
Probably because good pro-Brawl arguments generally don't exist.
What the hell are you getting at here? I could say that the top tier in Melee is just as "diverse" (if not more for there being generally considered more characters in it), but what does that have to do with balance? Not to mention, as exciting as that match does sound, it actually is beyond boring to watch. I'd rather watch any two good Melee players play each other with any character than watch that crap.
Kirby M.D.
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2006
- Messages
- 320
fletch, you make R.O.B., G&W, Marth, Dedede, and Wolf very sad when you forget about them to make a point. Almost as sad as Peach in Melee when people forget about her. The Top/High Tier is the same size in Melee and Brawl. Brawl has MK/Snake/ROB/G&W/Dedede, Melee had Fox/Falco/Marth/Shiek/Peach. Melee had M2 and Pichu, Brawl has Captain Falcon ;_; .
The competitive metagame for the absolute top of the group breaks down the exact same way for both games. They aren't that different, in fact there are easy allegories to characters between the two. For the love of the Reverse Falcon Punch, the balance where it counts is the exact same. There are five absolutely great characters in tournament level play, and in casual play it doesn't really matter.
I can't be the only one who sees through the Melee vs. Brawl bullsh*t here can I? I feel like Charlton Heston in The Omega Man, only not as ruggedly manly.
The competitive metagame for the absolute top of the group breaks down the exact same way for both games. They aren't that different, in fact there are easy allegories to characters between the two. For the love of the Reverse Falcon Punch, the balance where it counts is the exact same. There are five absolutely great characters in tournament level play, and in casual play it doesn't really matter.
I can't be the only one who sees through the Melee vs. Brawl bullsh*t here can I? I feel like Charlton Heston in The Omega Man, only not as ruggedly manly.
Jon64
Smash Cadet
All 3 games are terribly balanced...
Heh. At the moment, Brawl's top tier is way too 'top' but I think the tiers below that are much closer.
None of the games are particularly well balanced, but that's besides the point.
BibulousDan
Smash Apprentice
eh, i thinks that brawl is more balanced
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
LOL
oh wait you were serious.
They aren't cheap.
NOt really diverse. You mean balanced. IN melee there was more balance than there was in Braw;l.
Wave dashing, dashdancing, L canceling all these advanced techniqus were usable by all the characters. however it was what made character such as Link capable of playing in a competitive environment. The tier list wasn't as strict as it was in brawl, character in mid were capable of facing character in top.
However with brawl this is entirely lacking. Slow characters can't speed up their gameplay and the defensive abilities of this game are just ridiculously powerful.
The lack of hitstun also makes things difficult since even slow characters in melee could string together hits and increase damage output. However now they rely on single hits which is slow and carries far more risk than reward.
So frankly you end up with something like this
1. Character that can approach
2. Characters that can combo
3. Characters that can kill
4. Characters that are not confined to set situations to land said kill.
5. And characters who embody all of the above.
In melee you had far more characters capable of doing all 4.
Now the characts capable of doing so can only be counted on ones hand. As expected they **** basically everyone below them.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
wow can you really count the characters who can do that on 1 hand?
Fletch
Smash Master
Read my comments below... I realize those are decent characters, but they still aren't near Snake or MK right now.
Two characters are completely dominating the competitive scene in Brawl right now, and it's still so early in the game's lifetime. Unless something drastic comes up, Snake and MK are going to be leagues ahead of other characters, with a few other usable characters having some success intermittently. Compare this to Melee's smaller roster which saw a lot of varied representation at the beginning, and still has about 4 characters that are essentially equal at the top, with lots more lower-tier characters placing well (e.g. various Falcons, Mango with Jiggs, Chu's ICs, Bum's DK.... etc.). If Brawl is this imbalanced now, what do you think is going to happen in the future?
I didn't post that, I was quoting someone else.
First you disagree with my claim that good pro-Brawl arguments don't exist, and then post something I completely agree with. I'm confused to be honest...
To be fair, Melee's competative scene wasn't very large when it first came out, so it makes sense that people would (for the most part) flock to their favorites rather than the top-tier characters. Brawl has a much larger one, so it's easier to figure out who are clearly in the upper tiers, and thus, people that intend to play to win are going to stick with them.
Dark Bulb 4.1
Smash Journeyman
Melee without AT's is probably more balanced than smash 64. Wait
This made me laugh in a good way
Maybe its an opinion, but when I didn't know about tiers in Melee, I just had a feeling that Marth and Sheik were the best if not the best. Later on I found out what a tier system was, and through testing and playing AT's, they still felt the same, but characters not on that list felt they had more of a chance with the AT's. Before my discovery of the internet and AT's for Melee, I really thought Marth and Sheik were unbeatable, but I learned of the new threats, and ways to use characters I didn't believe possible.
Maybe this game does need more time, but my god. Again with just opinion, it just feels like a snake fest or a Metaknight monstrosity. It's hard to play fast since the game doesn't seem to want me to go fast. I know mistakes were always meant to be punished, but a mistake in this game has felt that it makes me lose a stock rather than just gathering damage, not to mention tripping at some of the worst times. I can't seem to combo with more than 2 - 3 hits except a few certain characters, the game feels like a hit for hit game until the damage is enough to kill. Some people have monster throws, and some just have useless throws. Characters that were low tier in Melee had special advantages, and even with a low tier, I felt I could win. If I picked Mewtwo against a Fox or Falco, I felt I could win, and I'd lose, but with all the imbalances, I felt I lost because I wasn't good enough yet skill wise. In brawl though, I want to tear my hair and make a noose to hang myself in a match such as Ganon vs snake or Metaknight. It seems there is just no way to properly get to the opponent without getting punished. I've never had such a problems with projectiles until now. As some have said earlier, I feel brawl is more about the character you play, and melee is more about the skill put into the game, not saying brawl doesn't require skill, and I mention that so no one takes this out of context.
I could make this longer, but its just my own opinions and experience with this game, I don't feel like arguing at all, this thread seems to be a matter of opinion, but I've seen very good arguments for both and this thread was definitely a good read (while at work lol) Always good to see opinions and facts collide and see everyone's feelings towards these games
MaxThunder
PM Support
i think the game looks more balanced. i've been looking around reading everything i can find, watching every movie and it really looks more balanced. i cant know this fir sure though, since i havent played the game yet (i will 27. jjune when it comes out in norway) so i'll wait for the game and make up my mind then. but i really think its too early to know if it really is balanced or not, and who is good or bad. it might be lots of imba techniques that no one havent thought about yet that make some characters better than others. but i really havent made up my mind yet, so i'll just wait for the game.....=(
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