Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Smooth Criminal]

Brawl is WAY more balanced than Melee, because of two words: Melee Fox

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Please, the exit to the thread is that-a-way. ------------------------->

Smooth Criminal

 

[SummerObsession]

Snake is currently fox and falco added together and then squared.

Snake and MK are the best overall but not unstoppable. I heard Donkey Kong can beat them.

 

[lethminite]

If you banned Snake/MK the game would be considerably be more balanced at the moment, I think.

...

Meanwhile, back in reality, I agree that the god tier is far too godly, but also think that the trash characters are whole lot less trashy compared to the trashes of melee.

banning characters is dumb.

however, you did give me the thought of stopping people using them them, not because "omg dey iz so good' but to force people to use some others for a change, and not as a staple, but as a once off thing, just to see what happens.


then again, i'm the type of person that thinks reverse picking would be a good idea (as in you pick their character, and they pick yours)

 

[SummerObsession]

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Please, the exit to the thread is that-a-way. ------------------------->

Smooth Criminal

Last time I checked Fox was at the top of the tier list, correct me if im wrong.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=77926

 

[Gimpyfish62]

you aren't intelligent

 

[iankobe]

ok my bad, I meant melee Fox AND Falco

...you're still an idiot.

 

[SummerObsession]

getting flamed by important people on smash boards, makes me feel important too.

 

[WaffleJesse]

Ok, this guy is too much. ^^

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I used to think Snake and Meta were completely off the scale, but the EWU tourney I went to a short time ago makes me think otherwise. I barely saw any Snakes there, and the Metaknights got destroyed early on. And they weren't even bad, the ROBs and Falcos and Marths were just better.

 

[WaffleJesse]

Yah, people go off the scale with the Snake and Meta factor. They are pretty easy to beat since they're spammed so much in Brawl.

 

[Fawriel]

Snake is currently fox and falco added together and then squared.

Yeah, this.

I'll try to compare them with a simple system. It's far from perfect, but it should allow some comparison.

What a character basically needs to succeed is the ability to KO and to survive. Since those two values are pretty much useless by themselves, there's also the factor of "control" over your opponent that includes the ability to mindgame, pressure, combo and counter, basically anything that comes between the ability to KO and survive.
Basically, the KO ability would come primarily from attack strength and the factors that contribute to an attack being easy to hit with ( speed and range ).
Control comes from the available projectiles, the character's speed, and their range.
And survivability comes primarily from recovery and attack speed/range. Weight is actually secondary because heaviness also makes a character easy to combo. Bowser is among the easiest characters to kill in either game.


So, I'll try to compare some characters with this system to the best of my ability.

Melee Fox:
KOability - 10/10
Extremely fast and extremely strong killers.
Control - 9.5/10
Awesome combos and a good projectile, but the projectile is not ideal for pressure because the damage is rather negligible and leaves him open, and his control ability is also somewhat hampered by his slow horizontal aerial speed. His range is medium.
Survivability - 8.5/10
He's very light, which is offset by a recovery with great range and his fallspeed, but the recovery can also be quite predictable under some circumstances and many characters have brutal combos on him.

Snake:
KOability - 10/10
His fastest attacks are still stronger than some other character's slowest, and have absurd range. How many A moves does he have that DON'T KO?
Control - 10/10
He could have better combos, but then, hardly anyone has combos, and a single hit from him deals about as much damage as a 5-hit combo from Lucario. His range is still absurd, and he has projectiles all over the place. A smart and patient Snake is practically untouchable.
Survivability - 9.5/10
Range. Weight. A great recovery that makes him extremely hard to edgeguard. Might be somewhat easy to combo?

That gives Fox a score of 807.5, while Snake gets 950. These scores are calculated by multiplication, mind you, since having a score of 0 in any of these categories would make a character literally unusable.
Now, I don't claim that this system is perfect, or that I'm really qualified to judge these characters. But think about it, these are numbers, just like the characters are made up of numbers. Every attack and every stat has its value, and the designers could compare these values.
Now let's have a look at the worst characters, which I guess would be Mewtwo for Melee and Captain Falcon for Brawl, though I think Kirby is actually the worst one in Melee.

Mewtwo:
KO-ability: 2.5/10
All his KO-moves have mediocre strength and almost all of them are slow. The only thing keeping him from a 1 is that he can combo a character off the top of the screen with fair, KO with his fully charged Shadow Ball and edgeguard from pretty much any distance thanks to his recovery.
Control: 4.5/10
He has some good combos and nice range with his tilts. Unfortunately, also very low priority. Excellent wavedashing allows for him to approach and counter, and Shadow Ball is marginally usable.
Survivability: 2/10
Quite light and floaty AND easy to hit. At least he has one of the best recoveries in the game and the floatiness and his fast nair lets him escape a few combos.

Dan Hibiki Captain Falcon:
KO-ability: 3.5/10
He does have strong moves in his f-, d- and usmash, but when are you ever going to hit anyone with these? Their combination of range and speed are lousy. The knee is extremely hard to hit with, can't be approached with thanks to his lack of a running jump...
Control: 2.5/10
His uair has some good range and speed. He can tech-chase sometimes. And the side-b can come as a surprise, maybe? ... that's pretty much his combo potential right there. Anything else is too slow and has too little range.
Survivability: 3/10
Heavy. Recovery covers a decent distance. And it's one of the few that can be predicted and edgeguarded, and THAT's one hell of a disadvantage. In this game, it's not so much an advantage to have an amazing recovery as it is a disadvantage not to. And Falcon doesn't.

That's a score of 22.5 for Mewtwo vs. 26.5.

But since my system is obviously faw from perfect, I'll come up with a more brutally obvious comparison to show that they just didn't care.

The worst designed character in Melee, if you count them as one, is Zelda/Sheik. Zelda is practically a joke and Sheik is a monster. I'll try to rate them.

Zelda:
KOability: 8/10
Since this category isn't about combos, which she lacks, you can't claim that she has no KO power. The only thing keeping her from a higher score is that it's really darn hard to approach with the fair/bair, but **** those moves would be broken on most any other character. F- and Dsmash are decent, too, though circumstantial.
Control: 3/10
Some combos on spacies ( dash attack, chaingrab ), not much else going for her in this respect. The dangerous fair and bair save her in this respect because their strength, speed and range put pressure on the approaching opponent.
Survivability: 3/10
She's not TOO light and her floatiness lets her escape some combos while allowing easy combos for some others... her recovery has a good distance and more holes than a B-movie plot. ( No, seriously, HOW is she supposed to be a "defensive" character again? )

Sheik:
KOability: 10/10
Maybe a tad worse because only her fair is really **** strong, but needs to be comboed into, though she really doesn't have any problem with that.
Control: 10/10
Needles, combos, priority, explosions everywhere.
Survivability: 7/10
Also not very heavy, can be chaingrabbed and comboed by a bunch of characters, and her recovery is lackluster.

That's 70 vs. 700.

Now let's check out Link and Toon Link in Brawl. Since Toon Link is a clone, certainly they must have paid close attention to their values, right?

Link:
KOability: 4/10
He only has KO moves of mediocre strength and mediocre speed. His range is somewhat good, sure, but the only really strong move he has is the dair, which is hard to hit with and very risky.
Control: 4/10
His projectiles let him put some pressure on opponents, but he's slow and has no combos.
Survivability: 4/10
Would be even worse than Captain Falcon if it wasn't for the tether. His recovery sucks, which means that everyone with a great recovery can murder him to death after easily comboing his heavy and slow body.

Toon Link:
KOability: 8.5/10
His moves are probably faster than Link's, and they are definitely stronger. Fsmash is better because the second strike is stronger than Link's first, and thanks to the improved first strike, it pretty much always hits, much unlike Link's second. The dsmash doesn't kill as early, but is a guaranteed double-hitter for massive damage. And if it isn't, THEN it's an overpowered KO move. His uair kills, fair kills, hell, sometimes even the bair does the job. His dair doesn't KO at 80%, sure. His is an amazingly fast spike that combos and can possibly KO at 0%.
Control: 9.5/10
Speed, one of the best projectile spams, combo potential. A bit lacking in range, maybe.
Survivability: 7.5/10
Pretty light, but his recovery and floatiness make him far more durable than Link under most circumstances.

That's 64 vs. 605.6.

The comparison between Link and Toon Link is at least as bad as the comparison between Zelda and Sheik. Too Link is just better in every respect. At least Zelda had her fair and bair.
Isn't it just mind-boggling how they realized that Sheik was overpowered in Melee and toned her down to hell, then did the exact same mistakes again with other characters?


Point is, people should stop claiming that there's balance involved here, or even the intention to make stuff balanced. The discussion isn't even about that. It's just about which balance is worse, because any claim that characters are all equal is too ridiculous to even take into consideration.

 

[old king coal]

^^^^^^^
haha..as if you could be stuffed typing that. no-one is gonna read it. waste of time.

on topic though, brawl has only been out for a couple of months, and now we are getting new techniques like infinite jumps for all characters, ect. GIVE IT TIME.

 

[Silfa]

^^^^^^^
haha..as if you could be stuffed typing that. no-one is gonna read it. waste of time.

I read it.

..

>_>

 

[Aggression]

Yeah, this.

I'll try to compare them with a simple system. It's far from perfect, but it should allow some comparison.

What a character basically needs to succeed is the ability to KO and to survive. Since those two values are pretty much useless by themselves, there's also the factor of "control" over your opponent that includes the ability to mindgame, pressure, combo and counter, basically anything that comes between the ability to KO and survive.
Basically, the KO ability would come primarily from attack strength and the factors that contribute to an attack being easy to hit with ( speed and range ).
Control comes from the available projectiles, the character's speed, and their range.
And survivability comes primarily from recovery and attack speed/range. Weight is actually secondary because heaviness also makes a character easy to combo. Bowser is among the easiest characters to kill in either game.


So, I'll try to compare some characters with this system to the best of my ability.

Melee Fox:
KOability - 10/10
Extremely fast and extremely strong killers.
Control - 9.5/10
Awesome combos and a good projectile, but the projectile is not ideal for pressure because the damage is rather negligible and leaves him open, and his control ability is also somewhat hampered by his slow horizontal aerial speed. His range is medium.
Survivability - 8.5/10
He's very light, which is offset by a recovery with great range and his fallspeed, but the recovery can also be quite predictable under some circumstances and many characters have brutal combos on him.

Snake:
KOability - 10/10
His fastest attacks are still stronger than some other character's slowest, and have absurd range. How many A moves does he have that DON'T KO?
Control - 10/10
He could have better combos, but then, hardly anyone has combos, and a single hit from him deals about as much damage as a 5-hit combo from Lucario. His range is still absurd, and he has projectiles all over the place. A smart and patient Snake is practically untouchable.
Survivability - 9.5/10
Range. Weight. A great recovery that makes him extremely hard to edgeguard. Might be somewhat easy to combo?

That gives Fox a score of 807.5, while Snake gets 950. These scores are calculated by multiplication, mind you, since having a score of 0 in any of these categories would make a character literally unusable.
Now, I don't claim that this system is perfect, or that I'm really qualified to judge these characters. But think about it, these are numbers, just like the characters are made up of numbers. Every attack and every stat has its value, and the designers could compare these values.
Now let's have a look at the worst characters, which I guess would be Mewtwo for Melee and Captain Falcon for Brawl, though I think Kirby is actually the worst one in Melee.

Mewtwo:
KO-ability: 2.5/10
All his KO-moves have mediocre strength and almost all of them are slow. The only thing keeping him from a 1 is that he can combo a character off the top of the screen with fair, KO with his fully charged Shadow Ball and edgeguard from pretty much any distance thanks to his recovery.
Control: 4.5/10
He has some good combos and nice range with his tilts. Unfortunately, also very low priority. Excellent wavedashing allows for him to approach and counter, and Shadow Ball is marginally usable.
Survivability: 2/10
Quite light and floaty AND easy to hit. At least he has one of the best recoveries in the game and the floatiness and his fast nair lets him escape a few combos.

Dan Hibiki Captain Falcon:
KO-ability: 3.5/10
He does have strong moves in his f-, d- and usmash, but when are you ever going to hit anyone with these? Their combination of range and speed are lousy. The knee is extremely hard to hit with, can't be approached with thanks to his lack of a running jump...
Control: 2.5/10
His uair has some good range and speed. He can tech-chase sometimes. And the side-b can come as a surprise, maybe? ... that's pretty much his combo potential right there. Anything else is too slow and has too little range.
Survivability: 3/10
Heavy. Recovery covers a decent distance. And it's one of the few that can be predicted and edgeguarded, and THAT's one hell of a disadvantage. In this game, it's not so much an advantage to have an amazing recovery as it is a disadvantage not to. And Falcon doesn't.

That's a score of 22.5 for Mewtwo vs. 26.5.

But since my system is obviously faw from perfect, I'll come up with a more brutally obvious comparison to show that they just didn't care.

The worst designed character in Melee, if you count them as one, is Zelda/Sheik. Zelda is practically a joke and Sheik is a monster. I'll try to rate them.

Zelda:
KOability: 8/10
Since this category isn't about combos, which she lacks, you can't claim that she has no KO power. The only thing keeping her from a higher score is that it's really darn hard to approach with the fair/bair, but **** those moves would be broken on most any other character. F- and Dsmash are decent, too, though circumstantial.
Control: 3/10
Some combos on spacies ( dash attack, chaingrab ), not much else going for her in this respect. The dangerous fair and bair save her in this respect because their strength, speed and range put pressure on the approaching opponent.
Survivability: 3/10
She's not TOO light and her floatiness lets her escape some combos while allowing easy combos for some others... her recovery has a good distance and more holes than a B-movie plot. ( No, seriously, HOW is she supposed to be a "defensive" character again? )

Sheik:
KOability: 10/10
Maybe a tad worse because only her fair is really **** strong, but needs to be comboed into, though she really doesn't have any problem with that.
Control: 10/10
Needles, combos, priority, explosions everywhere.
Survivability: 7/10
Also not very heavy, can be chaingrabbed and comboed by a bunch of characters, and her recovery is lackluster.

That's 70 vs. 700.

Now let's check out Link and Toon Link in Brawl. Since Toon Link is a clone, certainly they must have paid close attention to their values, right?

Link:
KOability: 4/10
He only has KO moves of mediocre strength and mediocre speed. His range is somewhat good, sure, but the only really strong move he has is the dair, which is hard to hit with and very risky.
Control: 4/10
His projectiles let him put some pressure on opponents, but he's slow and has no combos.
Survivability: 4/10
Would be even worse than Captain Falcon if it wasn't for the tether. His recovery sucks, which means that everyone with a great recovery can murder him to death after easily comboing his heavy and slow body.

Toon Link:
KOability: 8.5/10
His moves are probably faster than Link's, and they are definitely stronger. Fsmash is better because the second strike is stronger than Link's first, and thanks to the improved first strike, it pretty much always hits, much unlike Link's second. The dsmash doesn't kill as early, but is a guaranteed double-hitter for massive damage. And if it isn't, THEN it's an overpowered KO move. His uair kills, fair kills, hell, sometimes even the bair does the job. His dair doesn't KO at 80%, sure. His is an amazingly fast spike that combos and can possibly KO at 0%.
Control: 9.5/10
Speed, one of the best projectile spams, combo potential. A bit lacking in range, maybe.
Survivability: 7.5/10
Pretty light, but his recovery and floatiness make him far more durable than Link under most circumstances.

That's 64 vs. 605.6.

The comparison between Link and Toon Link is at least as bad as the comparison between Zelda and Sheik. Too Link is just better in every respect. At least Zelda had her fair and bair.
Isn't it just mind-boggling how they realized that Sheik was overpowered in Melee and toned her down to hell, then did the exact same mistakes again with other characters?


Point is, people should stop claiming that there's balance involved here, or even the intention to make stuff balanced. The discussion isn't even about that. It's just about which balance is worse, because any claim that characters are all equal is too ridiculous to even take into consideration.

u assume so much its insane
if link and toon link fight each other link has the range advantage btw (call him a half clone, i hate the word clone, especially since hes only a semi)
another thing, how good would snake be without infinite air dodging? ill tell you, hed be as good as bowser from melee, he'd be heavy as hell and easy as hell to combo
either you never played a good falcon or you're just a noob, but you rated falcon WAYYYY too low
my friend figured out EVERY physical combo for falcon imagineable, he even found a combo that lets him knee every time perfectly, he makes falcon look broken in the better way
he has an inescapeable combo on snake that brings him from 0 to 72% with no stale moves, no joke
and im not one to lose very often i tell you (maybe 2% of the time vs ppl on Smashbrawlrankings)

and the reason ppl think brawl is more balanced, is the logic that, well... it is
the infinite dodging and broken perfect sheild defensing makes combos almost non-existant except for the few that exist
THUS removing overpowered styles of attacks
one of the worst 1on1 characters in brawl is CF(hes better in 2vs2 or FFA where punches are used easily)
snake is probably the best because of his broken camping tactics and nade tricks

when i fight snake with CF (given that the snake is very very good) i still have a decent chance of winning? why? because i can dodge any attack he throws at me if i time it right

if i tried to use the best and worst characters in melee (given that i was mewtwo vs a pro fox) i would get 20stocked every time, the characters are JUST THAT BAD by comparison because they cant dodge anything

i could use the random button and win with any character it picks for me... in melee fox/falco/marth are basically 2x as good as the characters below them

i believe each character is a bit more balanced even without dodging, but with it... wow tires barely exitz

sorry for the grammar but i care not for capitals or periods

 

[Browny]

shiek

10 KO potential



i lol'd

 

[Sirius168]

i suppose it would be less balanced because it has more characters which means more range of inbalance

 

[Fawriel]

shiek

10 KO potential



i lol'd

You do know I was talking about Sheik in Melee, right? =P

u assume so much its insane
if link and toon link fight each other link has the range advantage btw (call him a half clone, i hate the word clone, especially since hes only a semi)
another thing, how good would snake be without infinite air dodging? ill tell you, hed be as good as bowser from melee, he'd be heavy as hell and easy as hell to combo
either you never played a good falcon or you're just a noob, but you rated falcon WAYYYY too low
my friend figured out EVERY physical combo for falcon imagineable, he even found a combo that lets him knee every time perfectly, he makes falcon look broken in the better way
he has an inescapeable combo on snake that brings him from 0 to 72% with no stale moves, no joke
and im not one to lose very often i tell you (maybe 2% of the time vs ppl on Smashbrawlrankings)

and the reason ppl think brawl is more balanced, is the logic that, well... it is
the infinite dodging and broken perfect sheild defensing makes combos almost non-existant except for the few that exist
THUS removing overpowered styles of attacks
one of the worst 1on1 characters in brawl is CF(hes better in 2vs2 or FFA where punches are used easily)
snake is probably the best because of his broken camping tactics and nade tricks

when i fight snake with CF (given that the snake is very very good) i still have a decent chance of winning? why? because i can dodge any attack he throws at me if i time it right

if i tried to use the best and worst characters in melee (given that i was mewtwo vs a pro fox) i would get 20stocked every time, the characters are JUST THAT BAD by comparison because they cant dodge anything

i could use the random button and win with any character it picks for me... in melee fox/falco/marth are basically 2x as good as the characters below them

i believe each character is a bit more balanced even without dodging, but with it... wow tires barely exitz

sorry for the grammar but i care not for capitals or periods

Eh, I don't claim that I'm the most well-informed about who can do what. I just posted that to get the ball rolling somehow.
I'll only say this: If Snake was in Melee with the same stats, he'd still be god-tier. Ganondorf was usable in Melee, and he had more lag and less power than Snake does now, not to mention no projectiles.
And the fact that combos are hard to pull off only means that the few characters who CAN combo (and kill) are a cut above the rest.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^If Snake was in Melee, he'd drop because he'd be a combo magnet like Gannondorf, and easier to edgeguard, while still not being able to combo that well himself.

 

[goodoldganon]

^^If Snake was in Melee, he'd drop because he'd be a combo magnet like Gannondorf, and easier to edgeguard, while still not being able to combo that well himself.

It's like they designed Snake first, then made a physics system that treated him well.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Metaknight > Snake

Also,

you aren't intelligent

Gimpy makes me lol.

 

[IrArby]

1) You assume "abusing" the mechanics is a bad thing. It really isn't. In fact, it's better if you can use mechanics to your advantage; that makes the game interesting, instead of "My character counters yours so I win".

2) You seem to think that Brawl makes it nearly impossible to approach. Like the above, it's a moot point because it isn't impossible to approach. But if it were, just how would that be balanced? END QUOTE] Yea I ****ed it up.

I won't argue your third point since shuffling doesn't exist but shffling does so I know your a noob. Anyway as to your points

1.) I tried to make it clear that abusing the mechanics "IS GOOD" but no one can. The mechanics are set up to not favor any one chars attributes.

2.)Approaching is somehwhat limited. Can you make your opponent whiff an attack and attack them yourself (assuming your opponents not stupid) Really what kind of fake out tricks does anyone have? What I'm getting at is no one has the great ability (aside from their intended abilities set by the programers) to vastly expand thier approach game. Ofcourse approaching isn't impossible (you can always approach and get your *** kicked) but approaching with a distinct advantage? Not so doable. Feel free to name some of these "useful bugs" I haven't seen many but everyones entitled to an opinion.

For the most part unintened stuff has been rendered undoable theyre are very few unintended ATs that are even useful much less abusable. Whomever quoted infinite jumps like a page back as an argument that we should hold out for more ATs missed the whole point of why we use ATs. It becuase their useful not because they're unintended. Infinites jumps do like > or = to ZERO for your game.

Actually I will say something to your last point. Every Brawl noob to have joined the site in the last 5 months says dumb **** like "melee was all about spamming combos and spiking, Brawl is about being smart and it has a deep metagame" Shffling isn't mindless button mashing where as me picking Marth in Brawl and running right up to Lvl 9 Cpus and hitting over and B 4times is (you'll win if you do this btw). Don't talk about Melee and compare it to Brawl since most of you suck at both and know even less about the former than you do the latter. If not floating into your attacking opponent is consided smart then I'd hate to see what you guys call dumb.

My point is ATs and Advanced strategies make the tiers what they are. Melee Bowser has limited ATs they give him distinct advantages thus he's lower on the tiers. Sorry Gimpy you'd still kick my *** but thats different. In Brawl no one can abuse the mechanics so everyone is using almost exclusively intentional means of attacking. The game is INTENTIONALLY balanced by the programers! I cannot stress this point enough. Unless you find chars with a wealth of USEFUL UN-intended techniques no one is going to stand out miles above anyone else.

Lol that no ones gonna answer this sinces schools not out until 3. Sorry Brawl Scrubs

 

[Yuna]

How did Bowser have any less ATs than the rest of the cast? In Melee, everyone had pretty much the same amount of ATs, some were just able to abuse the ATs more. Bowser could still use all of the ATs Peach, Sheik, Fox, Falco and Marth could. They just weren't as effective with him as they were with them.

 

[Samochan]

The game is INTENTIONALLY balanced by the programers! I cannot stress this point enough. Unless you find chars with a wealth of USEFUL UN-intended techniques no one is going to stand out miles above anyone else.

....

How is snake and metaknight intentionally balanced when we look at the rest of the cast? <_< Prolly the only remotely advanced thing we see meta's using is glide cancel, and that does not take away up b's ridiculous knockback. Otherwise meta's just better, he has better moves, better stats, tons of less lag... and snake's ftilt is still broken, as is the whole character.

I'd say it's intentionally unbalanced.

 

[IrArby]

Yuna: Bowser has limited ATs that give him distinct advantages. He doesn't have distinct character specific ATs that let him own. Everyone can L-Cancel sure so he doesn't have an advantage. What ATs does he have that others don't . . . I'm no Bowser main but they're are very few that let him own, get it? You basically ansewered this yourself. He can't use them advantageously so hes not top nor high tier.
Case-in-point.

Samochan: Snake is not ****. He doesn't all out own like everyone says. Sure he maybe aruably built better but as I said he isn't miles above anyone (except C.Falcon which is sad jk). I don't play enough to argue his abilities but I'll take for granted that he is better since everyone says so. Honestly I think Meta is better but that purely IMO. The fact still remains that most chars can still beat most chars. Thats why everyone's predictive MID Tier is huge!

Think about it. No programmer has the foresight to make Brawl completely and utterly equal. You'd have to make everyone the same and thats boring. Soooooo you give everyone different abilities and try to divy them up as evenly as possible while still having cool chars with cool unique abilites. Wa La u have Brawl. Not competely even chars but the distance between top and bottom tiers is still much smaller. Why do think so many chars are in the middle?

If you eliminate ATs which they did (remember E for All and Dashing Dancing? It is no more) You can increase the balance since some chars will benifit more than others when free radical unintended ATs are being used. Those ATs would mess up the balance programmers worked hard to secure (besides it essentially is just bad programming) so you eliminate them and restore the closest thing to balance.

Brawl is intended to be more balanced. I won't say its balanced cuz thats ignorant. But, Brawl is intended to be more balanced.

 

[Samochan]

Yuna: Bowser has limited ATs that give him distinct advantages. He doesn't have distinct character specific ATs that let him own. Everyone can L-Cancel sure so he doesn't have an advantage. What ATs does he have that others don't . . . I'm no Bowser main but they're are very few that let him own, get it? You basically ansewered this yourself. He can't use them advantageously so hes not top nor high tier.
Case-in-point.

Bowser wouldn't be so horrible if not for his dumb stats. He's so big target, he recovers from hitstun slowly, he lags a lot, most of his killmoves are slow, he can't even combo others than fast fallers to some degree... his only saving grace happens to be fortress which is quick enough to compete and can be used from shield, plus he's nasty at edgeguarding things. The way he can use advanced techs do not let him own (bowser can barely wavedash even) and he neither has anything character specific like samus has missile cancels and stuff that let him own.

Samochan: Snake is not ****. He doesn't all out own like everyone says. Sure he maybe aruably built better but as I said he isn't miles above anyone (except C.Falcon which is sad jk). I don't play enough to argue his abilities but I'll take for granted that he is better since everyone says so. Honestly I think Meta is better but that purely IMO. The fact still remains that most chars can still beat most chars. Thats why everyone's predictive MID Tier is huge!

Tourney results disagree with you

 

[Shazy93]

I'm in the "it's too early to tell" camp. However, you just stated that you feel that "it's less balanced than Melee". I'm curious to know what has led you to such a feeling. From the videos that I've seen thus far no one character has come out ahead of the others. I've yet to see any tournaments so I'm very much in the dark. So, again, what makes you think it's less balanced? What have you seen/experienced thus far?

Ike stands out like a thumb. every1 uses him.

 

[Sliq]

Think about it. No programmer has the foresight to make Brawl completely and utterly equal. You'd have to make everyone the same and thats boring. Soooooo you give everyone different abilities and try to divy them up as evenly as possible while still having cool chars with cool unique abilites. Wa La u have Brawl. Not competely even chars but the distance between top and bottom tiers is still much smaller. Why do think so many chars are in the middle?

Metaknight

Looks like you lose this round. How could they program him with the moves he has, and not think, "What a completely unbalanced character!"

Seriously, his up B is a kill move, come's out almost INSTANTLY, and isn't easy to punish because you can just glide attack out of it with a huge hitbox of fast priority that ALSO KILLS.

Don't even get me started on the whorenado.

Metaknights specials are completely disproportionate to like, THE ENTIRE REST OF THE CAST.

 

[IrArby]

Bowser wouldn't be so horrible if not for his dumb stats. He's so big target, he recovers from hitstun slowly, he lags a lot, most of his killmoves are slow, he can't even combo others than fast fallers to some degree... his only saving grace happens to be fortress which is quick enough to compete and can be used from shield, plus he's nasty at edgeguarding things. The way he can use advanced techs do not let him own (bowser can barely wavedash even) and he neither has anything character specific like samus has missile cancels and stuff that let him own.

Tourney results disagree with you

If its a matter of stats lets take Melee Falco. ATs aside he is so easy to kill, his recovery is abysmall, he falls like a rock offstage, and he runs slow. His aproach is dash attack, dash grab, or jump and aerial.

With ATs he can SHL you all day, Pillar your shield, shine, double shine, combo you like no ones buisness, shine, spike you (since his spike isn't completely nerfed in Melee) shffl, and any number of other ATs that let him own. Both Falco and Bowser can be comboed pretty easy but Falco can actually combo back. Falco is naturally a better char but ATs make him #2 on the tiers.

The polar opposite of Melee Bowser in stats I guess Pikachu. Small Target, recovers hit stun quickly, little lag, hard to edgeguard or combo but hes still low on the tiers cause ATs don't do much for him. Good Stats don't make you Top Tier, ATs and Advanced Strategies do. But, No one has em. Nothing anyone has discovered has made us totally rethink a chars metagame.

Granted ATs can only do so much for chars that are natuarally disadvantaged. High/Top tier candidates are a mixture of useful ATs + desirable stats.

"Tourney results disagree with you"
Didn't someone say earlier on this page snake was pretty absent from the tourney they went to. You can keep appealing to everyone here for support but Snake isn't unbeatable. Hes very beatable. As is everyone else.

Oh yeah I said that Bowsers DOES NOT have ATs that let him own. Seriously I've said this like 4 times. So stop misquoting me. A longer wavedash would help I'm sure.

 

[thumbswayup]

Metaknight is not beatable. He counters the entire cast. The only way you can beat Metaknight is with Metaknight. That or be Azen Lucario.

 

[Fawriel]

So... I'll try again.

What would have to happen in order to make the BRoomers in charge decide that a character must be banned from tournament play?
Yeah, I'm aware of the problems with this. I'd just like the question answered.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Metaknight is not beatable. He counters the entire cast. The only way you can beat Metaknight is with Metaknight. That or be Azen Lucario.

Snake and DK say "hi"...

As for neutrals, Bowser, G&W, Lucario, Marth, Toon Link, and Zelda all say, "hi".

Actually, G&W seems to be the most broken, he has 5 neutral match-ups, and 2 bad match-ups as opposed to MK's 7 and 2 respectively.

Of course this is debatable, but somebody care to point out what the error is?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979

 

[thumbswayup]

Snake and DK say "hi"...

As for neutrals, Bowser, G&W, Lucario, Marth, Toon Link, and Zelda all say, "hi".

Actually, G&W seems to be the most broken, he has 5 neutral match-ups, and 2 bad match-ups as opposed to MK's 7 and 2 respectively.

Of course this is debatable, but somebody care to point out what the error is?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979

I'm saying if the Metaknight is actually any good he will not lose to any of those characters, not even snake. He can spam tornado and up b all day without being punished. In the hands of someone with no sense of frowned upon tactics, Metaknight is invincible (for the most part).

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm saying if the Metaknight is actually any good he will not lose to any of those characters, not even snake. He can spam tornado and up b all day without being punished. In the hands of someone with no sense of frowned upon tactics, Metaknight is invincible (for the most part).

Ok, why?

What exactly can metaknight do that changes his disadvantage against said characters to an advantage?


And what's this about "frowned upon tactics"? Play to win. I can see banned tactics when they trivialize match-ups, but not frowned upon ones.

 

[isomorphism]

I don't remember where but there's a thread which basically lists every attack that can beat MK's tornado. It's pretty long, and if I recall correctly the only character who couldn't do anything to it was Luigi (I might be misremembering). Some of them are pretty situational but in many cases (e.g. Snake and DK) they're relatively fast and have good range. Spamming tornado will work / worked in a tournament setting for awhile, but people are learning quickly about how to counter it; against a good player, you have to use it as a surprise attack. MK's Up-B is really good but if you're expecting it you can avoid and/or punish it, at least with some characters. Even if they don't, heavy characters still won't get KOed that easily, which makes it a lot less broken. MK is also really light, which means that heavies (except Samus lololol) can KO him at significantly lower percents than he can KO them at. Don't get me wrong, MK is amazing and owns a lot of characters in the face, but he's not "invincible." I'd say the only truly broken thing about him is his recovery.

 

[Samochan]

If its a matter of stats lets take Melee Falco. ATs aside he is so easy to kill, his recovery is abysmall, he falls like a rock offstage, and he runs slow. His aproach is dash attack, dash grab, or jump and aerial.

The polar opposite of Melee Bowser in stats I guess Pikachu. Small Target, recovers hit stun quickly, little lag, hard to edgeguard or combo but hes still low on the tiers cause ATs don't do much for him. Good Stats don't make you Top Tier, ATs and Advanced Strategies do. But, No one has em. Nothing anyone has discovered has made us totally rethink a chars metagame.

Ookay... just how much sheik has advanced tactics to back her up? >_> Sheik is not only small, but veeery fast on ground, medium light on weight, falls medium fast, has medium recovery from hitstun, really good shield, good roll, spot dodge, amazing moves that lag very little yet are more powerful than bowser... >_> And pika's moves are not so very hot, his nair which has the least lag is not very good move.

Good stats in themselves can make you top tier, since the advanced techs compliment them or are made from them, but if someone has very lousy stats, advanced techs won't make up on them unles they're really overpowered. In falco's case his shl basically negates his need for running, he jumps faster than he runs actually. And his jumping is really good, short hop is small but full and double jump reach high. His fast falling helps him to survive if you di well and he can still walltech to survive things. Falco also has many attacks that don't really lag and come out quick, dair especially is ridiculous and works really nicely as his kill move along with fsmash and likes. He's also small target and more nimble than bowser.

"Tourney results disagree with you"
Didn't someone say earlier on this page snake was pretty absent from the tourney they went to. You can keep appealing to everyone here for support but Snake isn't unbeatable. Hes very beatable. As is everyone else.[/QUOTE]

It's always depends whether there are actually good snakes on the tourney, form what I understood there wasn't. <_< While on other direction pc's and cort's snakes dominated ans other snakes also did really well.

 

[IrArby]

UP B is MK's only real kill move above the stage. It can be airdodged (or air"spot"dodged as I prefer to say) like every other aerial though this is admitedly harder. From what everyone here is saying the "whorenado" is his ground game which sounds ...lame. I've never played a good metaknight so honestly IDK but sounds as if any char with a more dominant ground game would counter him. And if spamming tornadoes is his ground game I'd counter him with Helen Hunt from Twister and win.

He is beatable.

Sorry Fawriel I have no Idea but I wish you luck since no else seems interested.

 

[adumbrodeus]

So... I'll try again.

What would have to happen in order to make the BRoomers in charge decide that a character must be banned from tournament play?
Yeah, I'm aware of the problems with this. I'd just like the question answered.

Well, standard in fighting games generally is the distance between that character and the next best character. If the distance between top tier and the next best character is an enormous gap, and the distance between the next few chars is relatively small, the top tier is banned so as to allow some diversity in tournament results.

I gather that would be how the backroomers would see it.

I don't see anyone getting banned though, the difference between the top 5 is collectively is about 5 more neutral match-ups as opposed to advantageous ones, and everyone in the top 5 has a counter in the top 5 except snake who just a mess of neutrals including several in the top 5.

 

[thumbswayup]

Ok, why?

What exactly can metaknight do that changes his disadvantage against said characters to an advantage?


And what's this about "frowned upon tactics"? Play to win. I can see banned tactics when they trivialize match-ups, but not frowned upon ones.

Have you ever played a metaknight that spams neutral and up b effectively? It's **** near impossible to touch or approach him. You have to work so hard just to get a hit or two in and there's always the chance he'll up b you right after you do it.

First of all, explain how DK has an advantage over metaknight. Actually do that for the other characters as well because I'm not familiar with those matchups. All I know is that you can't really punish metaknight's tornado and he can do that against big characters like DK and ROB more effectively.

 

[IrArby]

Double Post sorry but its needed.

Samochan. Nearly all of those things that are good about falco are ATs like SHL. I listed that as an AT for a reason. So your logic R faulty. You actaully summarized some of my points like ATs wont help a naturally lousy char. Seriously, read it again, I said that.

And duh Shiek has the chaingrab on like everyone, and I'm pretty sure most Brawlers would classify that as an advanced tech. A shiek without ATs loses to tons of chars if they do use ATs especially Fox/Falco who topped on the Tier list. Didn't I say earlier that Tiers are what kicked Sheik off the top of the tiers.

So please read carefully so you don't repeat things I already said and look foolish.

In summary. Natural stats play a big role in tier placement. For the most part (MK fanboys give it a rest) the chars and their stats are more balanced than Melee's. No one in Brawl has ATs to vastly further advance their game so they can only go so far with the metagame. No one can abuse the game mechanics using glitches w/e to make them ownage. They are simply left with the intended techniques. There are a few useful unintended techs being used but otherwise intentional attacks are being used as they were meant to be used.

 

[RDK]

In order for a character to be banned, the character in question would have to either have virtually no weaknesses in comparison to the rest of the cast, or have certain overpowered properties / attacks that make gameplay silly and ridiculous (a la Soul Calibur).

And Samo, Snake is beatable, but you can say that about anything and everything. In most circumstances where Snake is played to win, he's very unbalanced.

Also, major props to Faw. ZOMG Captain Falcon = Dan Hibiki, LMAO.