Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[L__]

(unless you pull off triple-knees and stuff like some insane Falcons...).

With the group of friends I have, we call that a Clod Zero to death.

It's sort of like an inside joke but ... not really. =p

 

[kainsword]

Well, Bowser was Gimpy's "avatar" right? Who would most likely win Ken's Marth or Gimpy's Bowser?

Am I supposed to know this answer? You question me as if there was a direct and affirmative answer. It's not as if saying Ken's Marth vs. Jimmy from across the street's Mario.

I can't answer that for you.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Kain you need to think a moment.

A great marth vs a great Bowser.
Answer should be obvious

 

[adumbrodeus]

Reading 101 pages would have been a good idea since yes that has been said and refuted only 1-3 pages back.

Coming from SSB to Melee no one was looking for Advanced Techs, they were simply found out over a matter of time. In sharp contrast to those events, coming from Melee to Brawl, EVERYONE has been looking for Advanced Techs.

But how much will that actually increase the efficiency? Realistically, finding an AT is still absolutely dumb luck. Right now for brawl, people are more alert about them, but realistically we can't expect that in this short time, we'll have found and applied all the game changing ATs. Heck, the character's basic playstyles are still not crystallized, Toon Link still hasn't hit his stride. Ike is still ranking too high.

Plus, we have several potentially game-changing Ats that just haven't been mastered already (ISJR being probably the most notable).

No, it's still far too early to say who'll end up at the top of the heap with ATs.

In short, and yes this point has been made time and time again with many elaboration on this thread that ATs made the Melee Tier list what it is. ATs put fox and falco over shiek. There are no ATs like that in Brawl. There aren't many things left to discover that will upset the current standings of chars that already exist.

Are you SURE there aren't that many left to discover? Because frankly it seems that it's pretty much the reletively easy ones that have been found and exploited, leaving more difficult and potentially more game-breaking ones still to be found.

In Melee, ATs put chars on top while allowing low tiered chars to be competetive to an extent. Brawl doesn't fit this pattern it has no gamebreaking ATs. All that players have to go on are the intended techniques purposively programmed into the game and a very few things that don't fall under that category explicitly. Some chars have better intentional moves w/e than others and thats the way its gonna stay.

Again, it's far too early to say that.

In a Melee without ATs shiek wins. In a Brawl without ATs Snake/MK win. If you can really tell me another reason why skiek doesn't win now than maybe theres hope for Brawl since it is without ATs. Otherwise, I'm guessing the Brawl metagame is near its peak.

Again, you have no idea what ATs might be around the corner, especially when we haven't even finished figuring out how to play all the chars.

 

[L__]

In short, and yes this point has been made time and time again with many elaboration on this thread that ATs made the Melee Tier list what it is. ATs put fox and falco over shiek. There are no ATs like that in Brawl. There aren't many things left to discover that will upset the current standings of chars that already exist.

A conversation between me and M2k one day.

OOVideoGameGodOO (9:18:32 PM): SSBB has many less guarateed things than melee
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:18:37 PM): a bad person can beat a pro or stand a good chance vs them
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:18:40 PM): that makes me mad
da1 chipmnk (9:18:46 PM): wow
da1 chipmnk (9:18:49 PM): that's lame
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:18:51 PM): theres no advanced stuff
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:18:54 PM): to guarantee winning
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:18:56 PM): just from being
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:18:59 PM): much better
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:19:06 PM): its like
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:19:11 PM): mario party advanced
da1 chipmnk (9:23:36 PM): xD
da1 chipmnk (9:23:58 PM): well
da1 chipmnk (9:24:05 PM): if anyone's going to find adv. techs
da1 chipmnk (9:24:10 PM): it's probably going to be you
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:13 PM): i tried
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:14 PM): for hours
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:15 PM): i cant
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:26 PM): its
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:27 PM): super depressing
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:29 PM): i have SO Much
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:30 PM): great ****
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:34 PM): i havent begun to explore in ssbm
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:36 PM): or begun to show ppl
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:38 PM): and ic ant do it
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:41 PM): so much good stuff

What were you saying about Melee being almost figured out?

 

[gantrain05]

Uh, ok for starters; the only Falcon main that I knew of that ever spammed the knee was Clod Zero. All my other friends almost never use the knee unless they're trying to be flashy. I'll give you an example of combos from my friends.

Grab -> Fthrow -> Isai Stomp -> Raptor Boost -> Uair -> Uair -> Uair -> Uair

another one he does

Raptor Boost -> Fthrow -> Fsmash

Actually the majority of his KO's are setups for Fsmashes due to the fact that Falcon's Fsmash is easily combo-able into and is the second strongest horizontal knockback as said by M2K himself. If you want the proof look around

http://hometown.aol.com/oovideogamegodoo/myhomepage/profile.html

Another one of my friends is a Falcon double sub...main? idk.

He's more like a flashy version of the friend above. Moonwalks, amazing shield pressure, etc.

Without spamming knees, I watched as he held his own against Falcomist, Zhu, SS etc.

seriously? i played an extremely good falcon very often, and comboing to the knee is so much easier than u think, u can Uthrow at anywhere from 45-80% and lead strait into the knee or at about 100-180ish% he could Dthrow to knee and it was 100% connect rate because it connect in the air before nearly any character could get out of hitstun. only a few characters could even escape the combo even if u did DI any direction he's still gettin u with it.

 

[L__]

seriously? i played an extremely good falcon very often, and comboing to the knee is so much easier than u think, u can Uthrow at anywhere from 45-80% and lead strait into the knee or at about 100-180ish% he could Dthrow to knee and it was 100% connect rate because it connect in the air before nearly any character could get out of hitstun. only a few characters could even escape the combo even if u did DI any direction he's still gettin u with it.

although this is true...

the first doesn't like the knee because in a conversation one day I just brought up why he didn't use the knee often.

Me: Hey dude...you don't knee often.
Him: Yeah, I know. It just ... I don't know. I don't feel like a knee-ing person. I like his other aerials more.

Other friend: Eh, knees. Everyone uses them over excessively. Trying to be unique when using them you know?

 

[IrArby]

Realistically, finding an AT is still absolutely dumb luck.QUOTE]

There are 9 buttons/sticks on a GameCube controller. Count X and Y as one and you have 8 plus L and R are the same so 7. 7 buttons that you can hit after you hit any combination of those 7. Now, realize that whatever button combination that you follow the first one with has to be both useful in match play and has to be at least somewhat unintended in comparisson to standard movesets w/e. You can then apply some experimentation obviously but for the most part aside from aspects of the stage you have nothing else to interact with. I'm not going to sit and count out everything your char can do (dtilt, uair, blah blah) but you must understand that people play in a way to is condusive to winning. An AT will increase your chars ability to win. A good AT augments already existing methods of playing. An AT that only works when you do something really situational isn't that useful. It has to be readily accesible.

Melee ATs were more or less something someone stumbled upon and then explored and elaborated. You stumble across a string and pull it to see where it leads.

Brawl ATs your looking for strings. Thats why theres guys in the Tatical Discussion board raving about how good PAC is. It isn't. Same thing with ISJ. It isn't useful it doesn't compliment existing methods for attacking. It won't let you hit the other guy more frequently, consistently, powerfully, w/e.

If people were to find a good Brawl AT it has to exist in a context where you can readily use it in an average match. ISJ isn't readily usable or helpful. Seriously read the M2K post above. Were all looking so hard for stuff that what we end up finding isn't even good.

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

I hope this is a joke, but looking at your join date, I am going to assume as usual that you don't know anything about Melee. Most good Falcons probably use the knee less than his other aerials, and you'll see a lot more neutral spam ad uair for combos than just reckless knees all over the place... Knee is only really a finisher (unless you pull off triple-knees and stuff like some insane Falcons...). But anyways, talking about this pisses me off, because it has just made me remember how sweet Falcon was.

I guess it's alright to insult my intelligence by looking at my join date, and it was a semi joke, but whatever, people DID SPAM stuff in Melee, waveshine? Spamming Fox/Falcos shine. It IS spamming (spamming is using the same move over and over FYI)

 

[IrArby]

He didn't insult your intelligence he insulted your knowledge about Melee. Your join date was probably and accurate portrayal of your Melee knowledge.

I will assume the your definition of spamming was another semi joke but generally spamming refers to the overuse of an attack, tactic, etc that is annoying, gay, lame, unfair, etc. Spamming isn't cool but even if C Falcon use a knee to KO everytime its not spamming since spamming is not cool and Falcon's knee very definetly is. Just like if a fox/falco uses a shine 15 times for every KO he gets its still not spamming sinces its cool (and also perfectly unlame and very fair).

BTW I just reread that Post by L___. I was refering to the Brawl metagame not expanding much. Its a well known factoid (and an M2K quote paraphrase) that Melee has nearly infinite possibilties you can almost never learn it all. I was refering to no Gambreaking ATs in Brawl which M2K pretty much says in your post. Seriously, if M2K says hes got good **** left to explore in Melee I fully believe him. I'm refering to Brawl which has no good **** . . . only regular boring same ol same ol ****.

 

[Yuna]

PAL is the newer version, so it's clear Sheik's chaingrab wasn't intended - it was very obviously removed. This makes the matchup still heavily Sheik's favor, but not as much.

Something can be intended yet later be removed. It's happened in many fighting games for the PAL-version. Maybe they didn't think it'd be that good (these are the people who gave us more set-knockback throws in Brawl and tripping, after all).

I'm just saying, it's pure conjecture that "this and that wasn't intended because it was eventually removed". It's along the same vein as "L-cancel is gone, hence it must be an unintended glitch".

One could say that Captain Falcon mainers spammed the knee in Melee. Think about it, what other moves DID CF use to kill? His strategy was to "get someone in the knee position, then use f-air to kill". With the knee nerfed, CF is WORTHLESS.

Only the Knee had worthless priority and the strong hit was slow. So he had to set up for it. And he was at the same time extremely vulnerable because he was a fastfaller.

Meta-Knight's whorenado? Not a very bad move.

I thought people were able to DI out of combos in melee as well. Why the complaints here?

Because some people can't. And they don't know anyone who can. And they've seen "combo-videos" of people who do not on Youtube. Thus, they conclude "It must be impossible"... even though I routinely DI out of Sheik's tilt combos... on the first tilt (i.e. F-tilt to airdodged/2nd jumped fair).

Well, Bowser was Gimpy's "avatar" right? Who would most likely win Ken's Marth or Gimpy's Bowser?

Who would most probably win? Mew2King's DeDeDe/Meta-Knight or Azen's Yoshi?

seriously? i played an extremely good falcon very often, and comboing to the knee is so much easier than u think, u can Uthrow at anywhere from 45-80% and lead strait into the knee or at about 100-180ish% he could Dthrow to knee and it was 100% connect rate because it connect in the air before nearly any character could get out of hitstun. only a few characters could even escape the combo even if u did DI any direction he's still gettin u with it.

But how is that spamming the knee mindlessly (which ICANTWHATEVER claimed is being done)? That's comboing into the knee.

 

[Mr.C]

Melee > Brawl

Melee's balance > Brawls balance

Melee's skill gap > Brawls skill gap

Robert Downey Jr. > Melee > Brawl

 

[Corigames]

Michael J Fox + Metaknight = Instant win in Brawl

But in equalities and equations depicting known facts of Brawl won't change anything about it!

 

[RolandBeoulve]

You've really got it out for MetaKnight don't ya corey? Is there some blood debt to be paid? People will find more AT's, and I'm hoping there useful. Snake is pretty godly but I think people just need more time to adjust to MK's playstyle.

 

[Corigames]

I actually hate Falco more, but I feel as if MK takes no skill to win at the same level as everyone else.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

I can agree he is easily the most picked up spam character, high priority + speed + amazing recovery = new players doing way better then they would without him. I've actually used him to teach my girlfriend about priority and how to punish and predict repetitive tactics.

 

[gantrain05]

sorry yuna i must have misread the post^^

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I've been wondering for a while, everyone says that the new Falcon is terrible against Snake, MK beats Yoshi to a pulp, ect., but I've never seen a video of two good players, one with a bad character and one with a good one, referenced for evidence. Why is that?

 

[MysticKenji]

I've been wondering for a while, everyone says that the new Falcon is terrible against Snake, MK beats Yoshi to a pulp, ect., but I've never seen a video of two good players, one with a bad character and one with a good one, referenced for evidence. Why is that?

Simple.

Name a good Yoshi.

 

[L__]

*coughcough*FUMI*coughcough*


SHH FUMI'S GREATNESS CONTINUES IN BRAWL!! XD

 

[GreenKirby]

If Snake and Meta Knight wasn't broken beyond belief, I would say it is more balance. o.o

 

[SmashBro99]

To answer the topic title; Yes.

I may not have any vids on youtube (yet) so nobody cares what I think though.

Yuna isn't anti-Brawl, just EXTREMELY pro-Melee.

 

[WhoseReality?]

It depends if in a year people are still playing more than four characters. Until every single player who touches brawl plays Snake, MK, G&W, and Yoshi, it's more balanced.

 

[L__]

It depends if in a year people are still playing more than four characters. Until every single player who touches brawl plays Snake, MK, G&W, and Yoshi, it's more balanced.

Playing 4 characters out of the thirty some odd characters is balanced? Even if it's more balanced...It won't matter. The stupidity of how "balanced" this game is forces you to camp.

Yeah. Balanced game means camping. So fun right?

 

[The Real Inferno]

I agree with Yuna that many of those simplistic combos are escapable through sheer DI. Especially Shieks...unless you're like Bowser or some ****.

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

Who would most probably win? Mew2King's DeDeDe/Meta-Knight or Azen's Yoshi?

I wouldn't know that. Since Azen plays Lucario (and DID beat M2K's Metaknight). But, the difference being, Azen does not play Yoshi, while Gimpy mains (or mained) Bowser, and I don't even think Azen has EVER played Yoshi (correct me if I'm wrong)

 

[The Real Inferno]

Oh and on Brawl's balance.

That is entirely dependant upon what view you'd like to look at the game from. Say, in a world where every item is on normal difficulty and every stage is available on Random. Well in that sense, yeah I'll say it's more balanced because it tends to **** everyone over on an equal opportunity basis.

On the other hand in a competitive sense, some character just can't do **** to others. Case in point: Captain Falcon gets ***** by half the cast. Poor guy. Funny thing: try to beat Captain Falcon using only Bite and a kill move of your choice as Wario. It's funny.

 

[Zankoku]

I wouldn't know that. Since Azen plays Lucario (and DID beat M2K's Metaknight). But, the difference being, Azen does not play Yoshi, while Gimpy mains (or mained) Bowser, and I don't even think Azen has EVER played Yoshi (correct me if I'm wrong)

Gimpy is also not a top-placing player. Your question would give the same result if you asked "Who would win, Ken's Marth or Tink's Fox?"

 

[L__]

Gimpy is also not a top-placing player. Your question would give the same result if you asked "Who would win, Ken's Marth or Tink's Fox?"

The world may never know.[/sarcasm]


-Tootsie pop commercials

 

[IrArby]

SHH FUMI'S GREATNESS CONTINUES IN BRAWL!! XD

Really?! I'd like to see some vids. I thought Yoshi's DJC was like completely nerfed which was a huge part of his game. Even if hes still got Insta-Edgegrab you hardly ever need to edgegrab in Brawl anyway. I'd really like to see Fumi's Brawl Yoshi though.

The reason there aren't alot of vids of crummy Snakes ****** skilled C. Falcons is because no one is dumb enough to play their low tier chars against a Snake in tournament play.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Oh and on Brawl's balance.

That is entirely dependant upon what view you'd like to look at the game from. Say, in a world where every item is on normal difficulty and every stage is available on Random. Well in that sense, yeah I'll say it's more balanced because it tends to **** everyone over on an equal opportunity basis.

On the other hand in a competitive sense, some character just can't do **** to others. Case in point: Captain Falcon gets ***** by half the cast. Poor guy. Funny thing: try to beat Captain Falcon using only Bite and a kill move of your choice as Wario. It's funny.

the first paragraph is so true lol. and for the beat CF w/Wario using bite is funny especially on the AI.

 

[Fletch]

Oh and on Brawl's balance.

That is entirely dependant upon what view you'd like to look at the game from. Say, in a world where every item is on normal difficulty and every stage is available on Random. Well in that sense, yeah I'll say it's more balanced because it tends to **** everyone over on an equal opportunity basis.

Couldn't have put it better myself, great quote.

 

[AlexX]

If Snake and Meta Knight wasn't broken beyond belief, I would say it is more balance. o.o

Why do people keep acting like Snake and Meta-Knight can't lose to anyone but one another?

Yes, they're top-tier, so of course they're going to be good characters, but they can be beaten by a number of other characters as well. Granted, there has to be a severe gap in skill for low-tier characters to beat them, but that should be expected since low-tier characters require having greater skill than the opponent in order to beat the better ones.

 

[Corigames]

You basically just re-iterated what he said without overstating it like he did.

 

[Yuna]

To answer the topic title; Yes.

I may not have any vids on youtube (yet) so nobody cares what I think though.

Yuna isn't anti-Brawl, just EXTREMELY pro-Melee.

Exactly. I still play Brawl. I also still like Melee much more.

If someone asks me which game is better, I'll say Melee. If someone praises Brawl as a masterpiece, I'll point out its glaring flaws. But I'm not gonna crusade against anyone playing the game ever, nor have I ever done so.

 

[Corigames]

Am I an *** if I win a match in Brawl and then ask if we can play melee? Then repeat that until everyone quits playing?

 

[old king coal]

Am I an *** if I win a match in Brawl and then ask if we can play melee? Then repeat that until everyone quits playing?

yes and you should be ashamed

Exactly. I still play Brawl. I also still like Melee much more.

If someone asks me which game is better, I'll say Melee. If someone praises Brawl as a masterpiece, I'll point out its glaring flaws. But I'm not gonna crusade against anyone playing the game ever, nor have I ever done so.

brawl is a masterpiece. i cant think of any glaring flaws. no lag cancelling, camping strat's and tripping make it more interesting competitive and enjoyable.... * i joke - dont kill me yuna*

anyway to the topic, i think that even though melee is more competitive, i think it is too early to tell which is more balanced. i know people hate to hear this, but meh.

also i worked out how to multiquote this thread

 

[Corigames]

Now, what if I said that I was playing melee with a friend of mine and a couple people joined in. When I beat them they asked if we could play Brawl... after EVERY match. Are they ***** too?

 

[Browny]

Am I an *** if I win a match in Brawl and then ask if we can play melee? Then repeat that until everyone quits playing?

no.

if you lost however, then yes

 

[GreenKirby]

Why do people keep acting like Snake and Meta-Knight can't lose to anyone but one another?

Yes, they're top-tier, so of course they're going to be good characters, but they can be beaten by a number of other characters as well. Granted, there has to be a severe gap in skill for low-tier characters to beat them, but that should be expected since low-tier characters require having greater skill than the opponent in order to beat the better ones.

I know they can lose, but the fact is that they're still broken.