Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[The Halloween Captain]

<_>

If you don't miss, ganondorf's uptilt cannot be punished. >_> The logic doesn't really work.

Marth's fsmash takes 10 frames for the hitbox to come out and 11 frames to hit someone on front. Shielding takes 2 frames to come out. <_< Anyone competent that's either not mindgamed or comboed into fsmash can easily block it and then punish it, especially on the pal version where it has more cooldown lag. If you want to set up an fsmash with marth, you need to do more than just spam grabs and fsmashes. Simple fsmash abuse does not work with marth, no matter how good you are spacing the attack.

And falco can spam lasers against any character, only competent powershielders and counters from shield give him problems and reduce his spamming a bit. But they're still good way to hinder movement on air as well.

Fox can also use rshdl which stands for reverse (or retreating) short hop double lasers. Fox can jump away from the opposing player and spam lasers that get only landing lag of 4 frames. He's also even more quicker than falco and a lot more mobile, giving him more room to spam lasers and definitely does not make him vulnerable to attacks unless it's a dumb or otherwise bad player.

First off, if you don't miss with the f-smash, it will hit the other person's shield, and unless there is a powershield, the hit-stun on the shield will keep them from hitting you back. A simple marth combo which often ends with an f-smash is a throw. The reason f-smash abuse works is because you use your throw and/or their recovery to force them into it.

Two - How stupid do you think I am when it comes to approaching? I am not going to give fox the entirity of Final Destination to spam lasers at me from that would put me to close to the ledge for when he hits me (or tries to), and against Falco, you simply jump at him and land a counter into the laser. If he stops lasering as you jump, just land an run at him again.

Also, I will admit that the guys I face are smash wannabes who try to use ATs in order to make up for their inability. This does not change the fact that they were being held back by their lack of willingness to spam powerful attacks like Marths F-smash. I think it was the desire to not be cheap that held them back the most.

 

[Zankoku]

First off, if you don't miss with the f-smash, it will hit the other person's shield, and unless there is a powershield, the hit-stun on the shield will keep them from hitting you back.

This is wrong. I've shieldgrabbed Marth fsmashes plenty of times. Better people than me have wavedashed out of shield to grab Marth after shielding an fsmash. Lots of people just jump from the shield after an fsmash to wreck Marth.

A simple marth combo which often ends with an f-smash is a throw. The reason f-smash abuse works is because you use your throw and/or their recovery to force them into it.

If your throw always combos into an fsmash, someone is DIing horribly, horribly wrong.

Two - How stupid do you think I am when it comes to approaching? I am not going to give fox the entirity of Final Destination to spam lasers at me from that would put me to close to the ledge for when he hits me (or tries to), and against Falco, you simply jump at him and land a counter into the laser. If he stops lasering as you jump, just land an run at him again.

I think you're not giving Falco's lasers and Fox's movement speed enough credit. Seriously, if you're going to claim Marth is too good, at least know that it takes more than shieldgrabs (punishable) and fsmashes (also punishable) to win with him. Mew2King is probably one of the most efficient Marth players out there and he uses a lot more than just grabs and fsmash.

 

[Sh1n0b1]

It's pretty unbalanced. But its not like low tiers can't beat the top tiers at all. Proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29bTGlYirTg

But then again that Snake didn't use enough tilts imo

Potential Best Character vs. Potential Worst Character FTW?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

This is wrong. I've shieldgrabbed Marth fsmashes plenty of times. Better people than me have wavedashed out of shield to grab Marth after shielding an fsmash. Lots of people just jump from the shield after an fsmash to wreck Marth.


If your throw always combos into an fsmash, someone is DIing horribly, horribly wrong.


I think you're not giving Falco's lasers and Fox's movement speed enough credit. Seriously, if you're going to claim Marth is too good, at least know that it takes more than shieldgrabs (punishable) and fsmashes (also punishable) to win with him. Mew2King is probably one of the most efficient Marth players out there and he uses a lot more than just grabs and fsmash.

You seriously jump after an f-smash to attack marth? That asking to be shield-grabbed in my experience. Forgive me for forgetting how I played with marth, but its been a while since I picked him up in melee. Also,I'll assume the areal is a short hop. Not grabs though, shield-grabs. Marth should never be out approached with his superfast, superlong grab. The point of the shield-grab is to counter all areals. The point of the F-smash is to quickly score a hit after Marth's throw. D-smash for anyone who gets smart with dodge-rolls, down B for people who get smart with projectiles, and dash-something to handle campers. With melee's relatively poor areal game, it should be nearly impossible to approach a shield grabber from the air because he'll know when the opponent will land behind him, and when the opponent will be grabbable. Very few people seem able to react in ten frames, so if you know your opponent as well as I have from playing them weekly, maybe even from their videos if its a really good opponent, you know when you should f-smash, dodge away, or grab a charging opponent.

Although, I'll admit, I have no idea how the **** you face King's Jigglypuff. That guy is just impressive.

By the way, melee's areal game is poor compared to Brawl in that the characters are a lot more predictable in their desent and have less control, Overall, melee has a great areal game.

 

[Zankoku]

You seriously jump after an f-smash to attack marth? That asking to be shield-grabbed in my experience.

It's called jumping a little sooner than that >_>. Seriously, do you guys wait a full second after shielding an attack before doing something?

By the way, melee's areal game is poor compared to Brawl in that the characters are a lot more predictable in their desent and have less control, Overall, melee has a great areal game.

I do not understand this sentence.

Marth should never be out approached with his superfast, superlong grab. The point of the shield-grab is to counter all areals.

Fox's drillshine. Ganondorf's L-Canceled anything to jab/roll away. Sheik's L-canceled fair to jab or dashdance away. Falco's pillar. Jigglypuff's Wall of Pain. Peach's float-canceled aerials. A simple crossup. There are SO many ways to avoid a shieldgrab here... Hell, you fall more slowly in Brawl, and shieldstun is greatly reduced, making aerial approaches less safe, and there's STILL ways around a shieldgrab! The Marth who only knows how to "properly use fsmash" and shieldgrab is instantly labeled as trash and systematically beaten down by abusing the respective weaknesses in that one attack and one tactic.

The point of the F-smash is to quickly score a hit after Marth's throw.

Again, should not happen nearly as often as you seem to think it does.

D-smash for anyone who gets smart with dodge-rolls

You mean, anyone who's being stupid with rolls.

down B for people who get smart with projectiles

This only worked against an approaching Falco who didn't expect it at all. A laser-camping Falco doesn't really care whether you counter one laser or not, he's just going to keep short-hopping more of them.

Very few people seem able to react in ten frames

You have approximately a 6 or 7 frame window to powershield something. How often do you react in order to powershield? How often do you PREDICT in order to powershield? Exactly.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

It's called jumping a little sooner than that >_>. Seriously, do you guys wait a full second after shielding an attack before doing something?


I do not understand this sentence.


Fox's drillshine. Ganondorf's L-Canceled anything to jab/roll away. Sheik's L-canceled fair to jab or dashdance away. Falco's pillar. Jigglypuff's Wall of Pain. Peach's float-canceled aerials. A simple crossup. There are SO many ways to avoid a shieldgrab here... Hell, you fall more slowly in Brawl, and shieldstun is greatly reduced, making aerial approaches less safe, and there's STILL ways around a shieldgrab! The Marth who only knows how to "properly use fsmash" and shieldgrab is instantly labeled as trash and systematically beaten down by abusing the respective weaknesses in that one attack and one tactic.


Again, should not happen nearly as often as you seem to think it does.


You mean, anyone who's being stupid with rolls.


This only worked against an approaching Falco who didn't expect it at all. A laser-camping Falco doesn't really care whether you counter one laser or not, he's just going to keep short-hopping more of them.


You have approximately a 6 or 7 frame window to powershield something. How often do you react in order to powershield? How often do you PREDICT in order to powershield? Exactly.

Does any of this make Marth less of a god compared to Pikachu?

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Why is there a big argument over Marth;s melee f-smash?

 

[Zankoku]

What did any of that have to do with Pikachu? If you want to talk about Marth vs Pikachu, ask Anther, he's the one who plays that matchup, not me.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=FOWfIcsbmsY

In addition, comparing a high tier character to a low tier character is like asking a rhetorical question that everyone's heard a variation of. I can do it too - Will a Meta Knight, using nothing but neutral B and maybe eventually a dsmash to KO, lose to a Captain Falcon? Will someone picking Neko-Arc win against a Nrvnqsr Chaos player? How about that Samus vs Pikachu matchup in 64?

 

[MookieRah]

Why is there a big argument over Marth;s melee f-smash?

Well apparently it's because The Halloween Captain equates balance to one move.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Why is there a big argument over Marth;s melee f-smash?

Me and Ankoku disagree on a point of balance. I was a melee Pikachu, and found that people I lost to I could beat by using a character I was worse at - Marth - and do it so well as to two-stock the marth they just beat my Pika with, by using a simplified strategy involving Marth's throws and F-smash. Pika was combo'd and/or outranged to oblivion where Marth pwnd. Therefore, my experience says melee is terribly balanced, and Ankoku is trying to explain that my opinion is false, because I simply do not understand the aspects of melee's metagame that make it balanced well enough to realize that this tactic is **** that only bad smashers fall for and that melee's metagame is more balanced than my friendlies lead me to believe.

Ankoku, that was one impressive Pikachu significantly faster and more coordinated than my own, although that Marth was pretty average...
That Marth behaved the same way as my friends do when I resort to c-sticking marth to beat them. Lots of time in the air, feints that I just ignore, and all that other metagame stuff that never worked for my friends. The Marth has the opposite problem as me - he know the tricks but not when to use them and how, and I know when and how to use moves, but not the tricks...

 

[Emblem Lord]

You fail so hard.

Ankoku and Mookierah: Don't waste your time talking to this person plz.

 

[Zankoku]

I wasn't even talking about balance, specifically; I was pointing out that there's no character in Smash 64, Melee, or even Brawl that can rely on one attack and shieldgrabbing and win.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I wasn't even talking about balance, specifically; I was pointing out that there's no character in Smash 64, Melee, or even Brawl that can rely on one attack and shieldgrabbing and win.

Now I get it. My point was that Melee Marth is terribly broken, not that he could seriously rely on only two moves, but more that Melee Marth is worse than...well...the current MetaKnight.

Metaknight spams b's, spams down-smash, etc., but none of these compared to the spamability Marth could present at the beginning of Melee's competitive sceen. he was a really good c-sticker.

 

[MookieRah]

Ankoku and Mookierah: Don't waste your time talking to this person plz.

I wasn't planning too, I just wanted to make a smartass remark and just lurk. Besides I've already used up my epic post for the day in the infinites thread.

 

[fkacyan]

I wasn't planning too, I just wanted to make a smartass remark and just lurk. Besides I've already used up my epic post for the day in the infinites thread.

You should quote it yourself. Just to add to the, what, ten times it was?

 

[Sariku]

Lie .

 

[MookieRah]

You should quote it yourself. Just to add to the, what, ten times it was?

Yeah, it was pretty insane. I had no idea that it would have had that much of an impact. I am really going to have a hard time living up to that now, as I don't think I've ever had a single post basically destroy a thread like that before.

But to be on topic (since technically I am a mod and such so I don't want to spam too much) it's kind of silly when people who aren't really knowledgeable on Melee try to compare the balance between it and Brawl.

Brawl and Melee are apples and oranges anyways. Brawl has way more characters, so of course it will be more imbalanced if you try to rate it from the worst character to the best. If you rate it by playable tournament characters then it isn't that bad.

I don't profess to know the ins and outs of Brawl enough to really debate if it's more balanced than Melee (especially considering I've been on a 2 month long smash vacation), so I can't really say based on current knowledge which is more balanced of a game.

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I guess your right. Its fun to debate, though.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Indeed. For now we simply sit back and wait for Brawl to mature enough to the point where we can more accurately judge the game.

That would be the safest option rather than speculate.
I do however have my doubts concerning the viability of characters in brawl in comparison to melee.
Where in melee I could see a low tier character like Link fight with a Marth, I just don't see a character like Yoshi, or Link doing as well against a Snake or MK.

Again however its just speculation at this point right?


Hi mookie. I don't really see you post anymore =(

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Indeed. For now we simply sit back and wait for Brawl to mature enough to the point where we can more accurately judge the game.

That would be the safest option rather than speculate.
I do however have my doubts concerning the viability of characters in brawl in comparison to melee.
Where in melee I could see a low tier character like Link fight with a Marth, I just don't see a character like Yoshi, or Link doing as well against a Snake or MK.

Again however its just speculation at this point right?


Hi mookie. I don't really see you post anymore =(

Please observe the youtube video one page back.

 

[ShadowLink84]

That's something in which a very good Falcon beats a snake that is below average.

GG

Moving on...


I don't see the bird with a blue beak in Yuna's avatar yet in the picture the woman spins clock wise for me unless I stop paying attention then it goes counter clockwise.
Granted I figured the illusion out but I can't help but feel confuzzled.

T_T I fail

 

[MookieRah]

Please observe the youtube video one page back.

That's a very poor video to use as documentation for tiers. For starters, that video was made in March, secondly, they aren't that great. If you are discussing balance of low level play then that is a different story.

 

[fkacyan]

That's a very poor video to use as documentation for tiers. For starters, that video was made in March, secondly, they aren't that great. If you are discussing balance of low level play then that is a different story.

Do you recall how Emblem Lord told you it was pointless?

People have been telling him things like this for pages ><

 

[ShadowLink84]

Blargh thio is right

Now back to the illusion posted a few pages back.
We should discuss psychology.

 

[IrArby]

Psychology? It all boils down to Nurture vs. Nature and for Chrissakes People ITS BOTH! I've spent 4 semesters in psy classes and haven't learned a thing. Anyone who feels liked they learned something coming out of a psy class didn't have a basic knowledge of human nature before they started.

BTW I'm actually not completely against psychology or anything we just need a fresh debate since the pikachu mainer and his Melee Marth argument is dieing down. For the record, you and the people you played should stick to Brawl. At school, I'd play 1 or 2 pikachu mainers, no AT and they played so **** annoying that beating wasn't even satisfying.

(Argument point #2) A few pages back me and someone else were arguing whether Brawl is going to develop more ATs. To add to my earlier argument (I said it would not develop more AT btw) since everything in Brawl/Melee/ and 64 too I think have involved canceling something. You either cancel an attack/jump/shield/whatever into something else or you cancel something using the ground. I really doesn't take long to explore these options so I still maintain that Brawl ATs are pretty much all found out. If anyones interested discuss.

 

[RDK]

Wow. People still think Brawl is more balanced than Melee?

There really is no hope for humanity.

 

[IrArby]

If you do it by averages like rate every char then average it out then its pretty balanced but thats mostly because theres more chars. Thats why everyone's predictive mid tier is huge and everyones all scrambled. In this respect it is more balanced. If you go by Top Tier vs. Low Tier, the Low Tier stands no chance so its very unbalanced in that regard.

Its kinda like Mt. Everest is the tallest mountain (ground up) but Mauna Kea is 3/4 of a mile taller from base to peak. It depends on how you measure the balance. But since nearly everyone is going to measure Brawls balance based on competition between top and bottom tiers (leave out the very balanced middle) its very unbalanced.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Actually, I think the main problem Brawl has is a serious underestimation of the lowest tiers.

By the way, that youtube clip was the only one I've seen of the high v. low tiers so far. I would like to see a great, high-tier character user two-stock an equal skill opponent that is using a lower tier.

 

[Fletch]

Actually, I think the main problem Brawl has is a serious underestimation of the lowest tiers.

By the way, that youtube clip was the only one I've seen of the high v. low tiers so far. I would like to see a great, high-tier character user two-stock an equal skill opponent that is using a lower tier.

I'd like to as well, but let's be more realistic here.

EDIT: I read your post backwards, and do not get the point now...

 

[motsalogeL]

Well RDK we better leave these people obviously know what they are talking about.

 

[Shake~]

I think Melee is more balanced. In Brawl, it feels like it's more about the character then the player.

 

[fissionprime]

the only cicumstance that brawl is indeed more balanced then melee is if you have smash balls turned on. But when you do have smash balls on it really balances things out. Too bad they arent tourney legal.

 

[RDK]

Well RDK we better leave these people obviously know what they are talking about.

I guess my PhD in Smash Theory was all for nought, eh?

 

[Amarkov]

the only cicumstance that brawl is indeed more balanced then melee is if you have smash balls turned on. But when you do have smash balls on it really balances things out. Too bad they arent tourney legal.

No, smash balls would not "balance things out". They introduce problems even worse than character balance (although there are character balance issues too; ask Peach and Mario about their final smashes). With smash balls on, the game becomes about "who had the smash ball spawn in a spot where they could get it"? Because whoever gets the smash ball usually ends up at least a stock up (and space animals can get MORE).

 

[IrArby]

Well RDK we better leave these people obviously know what they are talking about.

No need to be SmartAsstic (pronounce it slowly you'll get it), if you disagree with what were saying, say so yourself.

 

[PK Hexagon]

I would like to see a great, high-tier character user two-stock an equal skill opponent that is using a lower tier.

They will. Such is the theory behind a tier list in the first place.

 

[Fletch]

the only cicumstance that brawl is indeed more balanced then melee is if you have smash balls turned on. But when you do have smash balls on it really balances things out. Too bad they arent tourney legal.

Just when I think the stupidity in this thread has reached its peak, it reaches another level of stupid.

 

[Binx]

LOL @ smash balls, well there are some final smashes you can avoid fairly easily that aren't game breaking by just chilling on the edge, however they definately create a new kind of imbalance and a huge luck factor depends on circumstances.

 

[Tristan Fattest of All Kids]

How are we supposed to know?

That's what we want to find out...

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

Wow. People still think Brawl is more balanced than Melee?

There really is no hope for humanity.

Both games are the most unbalanced games I ever played. I'm not even joking, it makes no sense why people are fighting for second to worst place.