Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[fissionprime]

Smash Balls are random and the point of competitive smash is to eliminate random elements that give one character the edge over another. If I lost a match: tied one stock apiece cause of some random Smash Ball I'd be pissed and I'm sure most of you'd agree.

nuff said. smash balls are garbage.

i have to say that the place where a smash ball spawns hardly matters. It takes multiple hits to bust it open. If you could just pick them up it would just be stupid, but that isn't the case. I don't see any instances where the placement of the smash ball could really affect who gets it (unless you are in new pork city or hyrule temple, which are both banned). If your opponent wins because they got the smash ball, they outplayed you at the critical time of the match. If the smash ball is going to be that important in the match, you shouldn't be angry when your opponent gets it because they have outplayed you when they needed to, it isnt like they are just awarded a free final smash, they have to fight you off for it.

 

[AlexX]

i have to say that the place where a smash ball spawns hardly matters. It takes multiple hits to bust it open.

But the amount of damage needed to break it is unpredictable (for example, sometimes a fully-charged F-smash from my Ike can break the ball in a single hit, other times it just sends the ball flying the other direction). If you wail on it for a while and just send it flying away while your opponent can hit a different one and break it in about 3 hits, how fair is that?

 

[fissionprime]

the smash ball is slightly random, but not unbalanced. It seems to me that it would balance characters since the weaker charcters tend to have better final smashes. The smash ball doesnt give an advantage to one character because you are both fighting for it, so if you smash it away you both have a chance to get it still. Just because you use a strong attack on something doesnt mean it should do what you want. Expecting a smash ball to break when you want it to is like f smashign with ddd and expecting it to connect when you want it to.

 

[Corigames]

NO, the smash ball hardly balances jack squat.

How is having a smash attack for Sonic where you have the possibility to take off 2 stocks against some people who's can be completely avoided, even after activation right next to you?

 

[RDK]

i have to say that the place where a smash ball spawns hardly matters. It takes multiple hits to bust it open. If you could just pick them up it would just be stupid, but that isn't the case. I don't see any instances where the placement of the smash ball could really affect who gets it (unless you are in new pork city or hyrule temple, which are both banned). If your opponent wins because they got the smash ball, they outplayed you at the critical time of the match. If the smash ball is going to be that important in the match, you shouldn't be angry when your opponent gets it because they have outplayed you when they needed to, it isnt like they are just awarded a free final smash, they have to fight you off for it.

It's not the random placement of the Smash Balls per se, but the fact that some FS's blow big time (COUGH DONKEY KONG COUGH) while other FS's are just ridiculously overpowered (Landmaster).

And to answer Clai's question on the previous page: it seems you don't understand what a "scrub mentality" really is. At this point in their metagame, Japanese players don't necessarily do everything humanly possible to win (taking advantage of MK's f@ggotry or Snake's mile-long hitboxes). American Smashers do. That's why our metagame basically boils to projectile camp matches with ROB and Snake.

 

[fissionprime]

NO, the smash ball hardly balances jack squat.

How is having a smash attack for Sonic where you have the possibility to take off 2 stocks against some people who's can be completely avoided, even after activation right next to you?

you have to be a pretty bad player to be killed twice by sonics final smash. Plus, sonic is pretty much agreed on as a low tier character, so shouldnt he have a good final smash to balance it?

 

[AlexX]

It seems to me that it would balance characters since the weaker charcters tend to have better final smashes.

What do you mean by "weaker characters"?

If you mean low-tier characters, DK's is rather "meh" at best. If you mean weak as in little attack power, Jigglypuff's is bad.

 

[Corigames]

But what about Jigglypuff's FS? That thing blows and she isn't that good. What about Peaches that puts them asleep and gives her heal items? That won't kill them unless they were already about to die as it is! DK? Pffft, yeah right. What about Meta Knight, he's awesome AND he has an awesome smash!

No, smash balls don't balance crap.

 

[fissionprime]

It's not the random placement of the Smash Balls per se, but the fact that some FS's blow big time (COUGH DONKEY KONG COUGH) while other FS's are just ridiculously overpowered (Landmaster).

the idea is that in the large part, final smashes are balance with the characters, there are of course great final smashes with great characters (mainly falco and fox's landmasters) but there are also many examples of giving a good final smash to a not so good character (ie yoshi, sonic, luigi). Of course we know smash isnt balanced so here are always thing that are wrong, but for the large part smash balls could bring the low characters closer or almost even with the top characters.

 

[fissionprime]

But what about Jigglypuff's FS? That thing blows and she isn't that good. What about Peaches that puts them asleep and gives her heal items? That won't kill them unless they were already about to die as it is! DK? Pffft, yeah right. What about Meta Knight, he's awesome AND he has an awesome smash!

No, smash balls don't balance crap.

jiggs fs an be used in a lot of effective ways, knock opponent off and use it to block their recovery. Peach's final smash, like you said, gives her heal time so the idea with that one is to heal and get a smash in. Dk's fs sucks but he isnt exactly a terrible character. And since when has meta knight had a good final smash?

 

[RDK]

the idea is that in the large part, final smashes are balance with the characters, there are of course great final smashes with great characters (mainly falco and fox's landmasters) but there are also many examples of giving a good final smash to a not so good character (ie yoshi, sonic, luigi). Of course we know smash isnt balanced so here are always thing that are wrong, but for the large part smash balls could bring the low characters closer or almost even with the top characters.

You have to realize that this is a ridiculous argument. Overpowered characters tend to have overpowered FS's, while only a handful of the middle and low tiers have decent or equally overpowered FS's. Sonic's ridiculous FS doesn't account for the fact that he's still a ****ty character, while MK is a top tier who has a ridiculous FS also. See the unbalance?

Even if these things didn't factor in, the nature of adding something like FS's into the mix is that it simply has a greater potential to be imbalanced. More variables = most likely more imbalanced. Seeing as how Sakurai didn't go out of his way to at least try and balance both the roster AND the supers, all we can do to make the game just a bit more balanced is not allow supers.

 

[Fletch]

the idea is that in the large part, final smashes are balance with the characters, there are of course great final smashes with great characters (mainly falco and fox's landmasters) but there are also many examples of giving a good final smash to a not so good character (ie yoshi, sonic, luigi). Of course we know smash isnt balanced so here are always thing that are wrong, but for the large part smash balls could bring the low characters closer or almost even with the top characters.

The other problem with final smashes that RDK didn't really mention is that the game will quickly become fixated on acquiring them. What's really the point of fighting if you're playing a character like one of the space animals? Sure, I can maybe deal like 50% damage to you while I wait for a smash ball to appear, but when it does, you're losing two stocks as a result. How's that for balanced?

 

[fissionprime]

i see what your saying, but it seems to me at least that the worse characters tend to have better final smashes, i guess i may just not be good at judging how good final smashes are. you win, but it was fun trying to argue against about 5 people at once.

And RDK, Michigan FTW!

 

[adumbrodeus]

Hasn't that been a large part of the discussion going on in this thread? Skilled people with Mario, Luigi, whatever losing to scrub MKs? Skill doesn't equate to winning. Skill is the ability to execute decisions effectively. Effective decisions win the matches. Why is Ken (a not overly flashy player) the best in Melee? Great decisions! He has ample skill to execute whatever moves he decides to use. But, if skill equated to victories someone like Silent Wolf would be the best in Melee.

I'm more referring to winning in the amortized sense, in other words, who's more skilled isn't determined by playing one person, but instead, who can beat more people.

The situation I'm really referring to is "the proof is in the eating", if the person is able to beat just about everyone, then it's pretty fair to say that person is quite skilled, correct? On the other hand, a person who can only beat, say Mario and Luigi players because Metaknight has an extremely good match-up against them.

The scrub metaknight will then be murdered by anyone with an even match-up, or just a slightly bad match-up. Heck, the more experienced players can probably counter-pick an even character and it's game over.

However, mid-game, I'll stick with Sirlin's list, those are the attributes which produce the result of winning, yeah they do (sort of) boil down to making good decisions, but the reasons WHY you make the good decisions.

Winning Matches isn't a skill whereas making good decisions is, well sorta. Skill still boils down more to technical ability than anything else.

Not really, I can easily beat a number of people who have a great deal more technical skill then me. Technical ability is one aspect, adaptability is another, Yomi (aka, mindgames, my preferred aspect of gaming in general) is another.

Making good decisions is a reasonable way to summarize it, but again, the "why" is important.

But again, this should translate to winning matches, nobody would remember Ken if he didn't win matches after all.

you have to be a pretty bad player to be killed twice by sonics final smash. Plus, sonic is pretty much agreed on as a low tier character, so shouldnt he have a good final smash to balance it?

This is irrelevant because it randomizes the situation far too much, the trade-off is far too great.

However, for completeness, metanight, ROB, Marth, Falco, Wolf, and Toon Link all have good final smashes.

As compared to Snake and G&W who have pretty bad ones.


And who that is low tier has a good one?

Sonic, Ganondorf and (I believe) Captain Falcon.

I'm sorry, but it increases the gap, not decreases it, plus, the high tiers are generally able to get it better.

 

[fissionprime]

yeah i lost, and by now ive probably made myself famous as the noob that argued for tourney smash balls -.- .

well i have to go now.

 

[adumbrodeus]

yeah i lost, and by now ive probably made myself famous as the noob that argued for tourney smash balls -.- .

well i have to go now.

Lol, happens all the time.

But if you're really interested, create a format that includes it and host tournies.

Good luck balancing it though...

 

[fissionprime]

yeah i personally am a smash ball fan and would like to see them incorporated at some point, but i guess thats pretty much wishful thinking at least for major tournies

 

[Jack Kieser]

yeah i lost, and by now ive probably made myself famous as the noob that argued for tourney smash balls -.- .

well i have to go now.

First of all... it would be 'a noob', because you weren't the first and certainly won't be the last, and secondly, wanting FS's in competitive play isn't a bad thing, necessarily... they just don't work yet.

 

[RDK]

I'm more referring to winning in the amortized sense, in other words, who's more skilled isn't determined by playing one person, but instead, who can beat more people.

The situation I'm really referring to is "the proof is in the eating", if the person is able to beat just about everyone, then it's pretty fair to say that person is quite skilled, correct? On the other hand, a person who can only beat, say Mario and Luigi players because Metaknight has an extremely good match-up against them.

The scrub metaknight will then be murdered by anyone with an even match-up, or just a slightly bad match-up. Heck, the more experienced players can probably counter-pick an even character and it's game over.

However, mid-game, I'll stick with Sirlin's list, those are the attributes which produce the result of winning, yeah they do (sort of) boil down to making good decisions, but the reasons WHY you make the good decisions.



Not really, I can easily beat a number of people who have a great deal more technical skill then me. Technical ability is one aspect, adaptability is another, Yomi (aka, mindgames, my preferred aspect of gaming in general) is another.

Making good decisions is a reasonable way to summarize it, but again, the "why" is important.

But again, this should translate to winning matches, nobody would remember Ken if he didn't win matches after all.




This is irrelevant because it randomizes the situation far too much, the trade-off is far too great.

However, for completeness, metanight, ROB, Marth, Falco, Wolf, and Toon Link all have good final smashes.

As compared to Snake and G&W who have pretty bad ones.


And who that is low tier has a good one?

Sonic, Ganondorf and (I believe) Captain Falcon.

I'm sorry, but it increases the gap, not decreases it, plus, the high tiers are generally able to get it better.

Technical ability =/= overall skill (at least not necessarily). You may be the most technical player around, but if you aren't able to utilize your tech skill properly (or if your mindgames suck), then you're not truly skilled enough to beat someone who is less technically focused, but is an all-around better player. This is why M2K will almost always > Silent Wolf.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Technical ability =/= overall skill (at least not necessarily). You may be the most technical player around, but if you aren't able to utilize your tech skill properly (or if your mindgames suck), then you're not truly skilled enough to beat someone who is less technically focused, but is an all-around better player. This is why M2K will almost always > Silent Wolf.

I think you misread me, I actually said the opposite, that technical ability is not the be-all-end-all.

I made a special note of my favorite aspect, namely Yomi (mindgames in smash), but really all aspects are important.

yeah i personally am a smash ball fan and would like to see them incorporated at some point, but i guess thats pretty much wishful thinking at least for major tournies

Well, if you want them, figure out a ruleset that makes them work well. If you do it well, people will come to your tournaments and it can be a major format which means that it will be included in a lot of major tournaments.

Probably not the primary format of the tournaments, but a respected one at least.

 

[RDK]

I think you misread me, I actually said the opposite, that technical ability is not the be-all-end-all.

I made a special note of my favorite aspect, namely Yomi (mindgames in smash), but really all aspects are important.




Well, if you want them, figure out a ruleset that makes them work well. If you do it well, people will come to your tournaments and it can be a major format which means that it will be included in a lot of major tournaments.

Probably not the primary format of the tournaments, but a respected one at least.

I was agreeing with you, actually. ^_^

 

[adumbrodeus]

I was agreeing with you, actually. ^_^

Ok, the way you phrased it confused me, so I thought you misread me.

*noted down in Yomi notebook for RDK*

lol

 

[IrArby]

adumbrodeus: I read Sirlin's List thing and the section on Yomi was particularly interesting. I guess what I'm getting at is I feel that most top Smashers (in Melee) IMO rely more on planning but are obviously very capable of adaptability. In fact, adapting is part of the plan.

Essentially, whole combo videos are made up a one fighter putting another into scenarios with limited or no responses that could be potentially endangering to the first fighter. Yomi plays an important role in forcing opponents into those situations (approaching) but from there, and this is the beauty of Melee, the approached opponent is disadvantaged and will likely take some damage no matter how they react but if they react poorly they'll take alot, and visa versa ofcourse.

Really, Yomi is part of the planning since great players will act in a way to make the other player react in the way the first player knows they will react (Yomi ryt?) and punishes them for it. Very intriuing stuff.

One of those planned things that I love as a Marth main is this tech you do on almost any char near an edge. I've seen M2K do this several times and theres a great clip of Ken doing something very similar to a falco on "The Falchion Sword" (however you spell it) right as the music switches to that gay Linkin Park song. All it is is a down thow with your back facing the edge. However they tech or even if they don't tech they'll get comboed. Techroll towards center stage you get grabbed. Tech in place you get smashed, poked, or grabbed. Techroll towards the edge, Marth's range either Fsmashes or pokes you offstage. Yomi goes out the window here since prediction isn't at all required its merely reactions ie. good decisions.

 

[adumbrodeus]

adumbrodeus: I read Sirlin's List thing and the section on Yomi was particularly interesting. I guess what I'm getting at is I feel that most top Smashers (in Melee) IMO rely more on planning but are obviously very capable of adaptability. In fact, adapting is part of the plan.

Which I agree with, obviously part of planning is including adaptability to the plan because nobody reacts exactly how you think...

Until you've got them down to science that is.

Essentially, whole combo videos are made up a one fighter putting another into scenarios with limited or no responses that could be potentially endangering to the first fighter. Yomi plays an important role in forcing opponents into those situations (approaching) but from there, and this is the beauty of Melee, the approached opponent is disadvantaged and will likely take some damage no matter how they react but if they react poorly they'll take alot, and visa versa ofcourse.

Really, Yomi is part of the planning since great players will act in a way to make the other player react in the way the first player knows they will react (Yomi ryt?) and punishes them for it. Very intriuing stuff.

Really, it's not just that, you use Yomi in any situation where you know what your opponent is going to do and react accordingly. It could be because the person is a technical perfectionist and it's technically the best move. It could be because you've figured the person out perfectly. However, unless you're in an inescapable combo situation, Yomi is always playing a role, and accurate enough prediction will destroy anyone.

One of those planned things that I love as a Marth main is this tech you do on almost any char near an edge. I've seen M2K do this several times and theres a great clip of Ken doing something very similar to a falco on "The Falchion Sword" (however you spell it) right as the music switches to that gay Linkin Park song. All it is is a down thow with your back facing the edge. However they tech or even if they don't tech they'll get comboed. Techroll towards center stage you get grabbed. Tech in place you get smashed, poked, or grabbed. Techroll towards the edge, Marth's range either Fsmashes or pokes you offstage. Yomi goes out the window here since prediction isn't at all required its merely reactions ie. good decisions.

The whole idea is that Yomi is part of your overall decision-making process, and gets you into a position where you can use inescapable combos like this. It's part of good decision making, part of the why. For the best players it's absolutely an integral part.

Tech skill on the other hand, lengthens your list of potential maneuvers in any given situation, rather then assisting with decision making, it gives you more choices to make or makes some of your decisions safer.

Definitely useful, but no replacement for good decision-making.

 

[iamt3hwarrior]

I don't personally believe this. I'm glad that at least in brawl, they balance out the characters so that they all have a uniqueness to each of them. Melee had way to many "clones," and i found this to be kind of a setback to melee that brawl doesn't have. This allows me to play for longer periods of time, without complaints.

 

[RDK]

I don't personally believe this. I'm glad that at least in brawl, they balance out the characters so that they all have a uniqueness to each of them. Melee had way to many "clones," and i found this to be kind of a setback to melee that brawl doesn't have. This allows me to play for longer periods of time, without complaints.

Making all of the characters unique makes it likelier that it's going to be UNbalanced, not more. The whole nature of clones was that it made the Melee roster more even.

Please research terms before you go throwing them around.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

The way I think of it is that Brawl balanced out the skill gap between nubs and not nubs, so thus it is unbalanced. Since we dont have useful enough AT's(like wavedashing and L-cancel) to seperate the noobs from the pros, we balancing relies on the natural skill of the character. So if you are facing someone less skilled than you, theres a much bigger chance of you losing if their character is much more naturaly able to win than yours. Chances are you'll still win, since in both of the games the more skiled person will win, but you'll be much closer to death than in Melee, when you could shffl the guy to death. So in Bralw, the smaller the skill gap is between the two players, the more the natural ability of the character matters, so thus an imbalance larger than Melee, because the skill gap was huge

 

[Fletch]

I don't personally believe this. I'm glad that at least in brawl, they balance out the characters so that they all have a uniqueness to each of them. Melee had way to many "clones," and i found this to be kind of a setback to melee that brawl doesn't have. This allows me to play for longer periods of time, without complaints.

Besides the Marios (and even they are questionable), the clones really played completely differently... I mean have you even tried playing Fox/Falco or Falcon/Ganon?

 

[Empy]

Just dropping in to say I'm amazed people are still arguing that Brawl is more balanced. Picking up characters like Luigi and Ness was an easy and fun thing to do in Melee. I had my share moments of excitement with Ganondorf as well.

Just try to play as a low tier character now. Take the same Ganondorf. You have to work your *** off just to be on par. You just do, there is no way around it.

 

[St. Viers]

^^agreed.
10 charbroiledsteaks

 

[IrArby]

Brawl r teh gay sex.

Playing Low tier now is a ****ing sudoku rubix cube with 3 chances (stocks) to get it right. I love playing Ike since no matter who I play character wise its hard as balls but extremely satisfying when you actually win.

 

[Amarkov]

It wasn't easy to play low tiers in Melee either. You COULD win (I admit that some matchups are essentially unwinnable), but you still had to work much harder to play a decent Mewtwo than a decent Sheik.

 

[thumbswayup]

Not if it was Taj's Mewtwo.

 

[Corigames]

Are you saying it wasn't hard for him to get MewTwo to that level?

 

[thumbswayup]

No, it was probably hard. It's just that his Mewtwo would **** very good sheiks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u89hqpmQwqE

 

[Corigames]

I know, I've played him a lot and he has ***** me no matter what character he plays.... in melee. His mewtwo was just merciless to my Samus. It was a lot of butthurt.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Making all of the characters unique makes it likelier that it's going to be UNbalanced, not more. The whole nature of clones was that it made the Melee roster more even.

Please research terms before you go throwing them around.

But by making clone characters it makes the game more stale and a lazy way for the designers to add in an extra character.

 

[Corigames]

Yes, because as his example showed, a match against Falcon was exactly the same as a match against Ganon, a Falcon clone.

It wasn't stale. And, even to that extent, the game engine allowed for more excitement regardless of the moves to which some of the characters used. Had the game been just Fox, it would have been more exciting than almost anything Brawl. Yes, it would have repeat after repeat of matches, but the gameplay that results from Fox dittos is crazy fast, technical, and full of mind games.

Even if there were a handful of characters that were clones, how many played exactly the same? There was Fox and Falco. They were both high tiered but for two completely different reasons. Mario and Doc. These are the closest to actual clones in the game, but there are slight differences which gave doc a noticeable advantage. Ganon and Falcon. That difference is painfully obvious. Link and Young Link. They both are little spammy whores, but one of them is much, much better at it. Marth and Roy? Woooooowwww. Pichu and Pika chu. Pichu was everything Pikachu was, but 20X worse for some reason.

 

[Linkforce]

But by making clone characters it makes the game more stale and a lazy way for the designers to add in an extra character.

You're right. Anyone in game design will admit this.... and to tell you the truth, they're **** proud of it, because there is nothing wrong with this.


See, the thing about designing games is that you have a deadline. People can only get so much done in so little time. Usually, if you have 100 ideas planned for a game, only about 75 of 'em actually get implemented. So the best way to accomplish something, is to choose the easiest way to do so.


Thats why there is absolutely nothing wrong with adding clone characters. It doesn't mess up the gameplay, there is less work involved which gives more time to finish the stuff with more priority and most importantly, you get more done between a specific time frame.


So people, please don't be calling designers lazy. They usually work their ***** off to beat specified deadlines. Brawl being delayed so many times is already proof of this.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

You're right. Anyone in game design will admit this.... and to tell you the truth, they're **** proud of it, because there is nothing wrong with this.


See, the thing about designing games is that you have a deadline. People can only get so much done in so little time. Usually, if you have 100 ideas planned for a game, only about 75 of 'em actually get implemented. So the best way to accomplish something, is to choose the easiest way to do so.


Thats why there is absolutely nothing wrong with adding clone characters. It doesn't mess up the gameplay, there is less work involved which gives more time to finish the stuff with more priority and most importantly, you get more done between a specific time frame.


So people, please don't be calling designers lazy. They usually work their ***** off to beat specified deadlines. Brawl being delayed so many times is already proof of this.

lol clones are fun. it means less work involved in learning multiple characters cause they fight the same.