Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[BooM!!]

um
the game is far from balanced
have you SEEEN Snake?
like, one that knows how to ftilt?

 

[RDK]

Sorry, I refuse to join such petty and silly conversations. Arguing over the intertubes is fun and all, but I've personally decided to stop debating points of Melee vs Brawl or defending Brawl against people with what I perceive to be faulty logic. So I will have to respectfully decline to join you in this debate. The only reason I initially responded was due to the outlandishly ridiculous claims the initial comment made.

How is my comment outlandishly ridiculous? If you're such a staunch opposer to the mentality that playing a Brawl character is playing basically every Brawl character, then prove me wrong.

Don't call me out for faulty arguments and then decline to participate in the argument yourself.

 

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

How is my comment outlandishly ridiculous? If you're such a staunch opposer to the mentality that playing a Brawl character is playing basically every Brawl character, then prove me wrong.

Don't call me out for faulty arguments and then decline to participate in the argument yourself.

You go, RDK.

 

[WastingPenguins]

You guys are insane. RDK, your claim is idiotic. All characters do not play the same and I don't understand why you would think this.

 

[RDK]

You guys are insane. RDK makes the ridiculous claim that Brawl is so "watered down" that you can be good at it even if you don't "know what you're doing." Panda, probably out of boredom, makes a post stating that an obviously false claim is false.

Panda pretty much nailed it on the head-- RDK employs obviously faulty logic in his post, so why bother wasting his breath arguing about it?

Again--prove me wrong. Respond to what I said instead of complaining about me using faulty logic. SHOW that I used faulty logic.

 

[WastingPenguins]

I ninja-edited my post because I changed my thoughts. So I'll repost this:

You guys are insane. RDK, your claim is idiotic. All characters do not play the same and I don't understand why you would think this.

...why DO you think this?

 

[RDK]

I ninja-edited my post because I changed my thoughts. So I'll repost this:

You guys are insane. RDK, your claim is idiotic. All characters do not play the same and I don't understand why you would think this.

...why DO you think this?

You're being an idiot.

I never said that all characters play the same; I said that the game engine's universal faults makes it easy for you to transfer character skills from one to another with very little experience or skill involved.

 

[WastingPenguins]

This argument is dumb. I certainly can't argue with your opinion that it's easy to switch between characters because I have no way to gauge what you mean by "easy". Easy relative to what? Relative to picking up characters in other fighters? Relative to getting a perfect score on the SATs? Relative to beating Tiger Woods at golf? Relative to beating your little sister at darts? Relative to beating Takeru Kobayashi in a hot-dog eating contest? Relative to mastering the jazz flute?

Perhaps you mean in other fighters it would take you months to master a characters and in Brawl it would only take weeks. Perhaps you think that you can pick up Brawl characters and know them in a day. Perhaps you think it is so easy to master a character you can do it in mere minutes.

I have no idea what you think or what you mean by "easy" so I can't argue. If there's anything that can be learned from this it's that "easy" isn't an especially descriptive term and doesn't qualify statements very well in a debate.

 

[Corigames]

Sorry, I refuse to join such petty and silly conversations.

Then why did you even make a public comment on the discussion? >_>

 

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

This argument is dumb. I certainly can't argue with your opinion that it's easy to switch between characters because I have no way to gauge what you mean by "easy". Easy relative to what? Relative to other fighters? Perhaps you mean in other fighters it would take you months to master a characters and in Brawl it would only take weeks. Perhaps you think that you can pick up Brawl characters and know them in a day.

I have no idea what you mean by "easy" so I can't argue.

Well, considering all your "Perhaps you mean" scenario's exactly fit the definition for "easy", you could argue.

But, since "easy" can be just in comparison, a definition is not necessary. The point is that Brawl is easier than Melee, regardless of any definition of "easy".

 

[Demon Kirby]

You guys know he isn't going to respond.

Also, lolspam.

 

[RDK]

This argument is dumb. I certainly can't argue with your opinion that it's easy to switch between characters because I have no way to gauge what you mean by "easy". Easy relative to what? Relative to picking up characters in other fighters? Relative to getting a perfect score on the SATs? Relative to beating Tiger Woods at golf? Relative to beating your little sister at darts? Relative to beating Takeru Kobayashi in a hot-dog eating contest? Relative to mastering the jazz flute?

Perhaps you mean in other fighters it would take you months to master a characters and in Brawl it would only take weeks. Perhaps you think that you can pick up Brawl characters and know them in a day. Perhaps you think it is so easy to master a character you can do it in mere minutes.

I have no idea what you think or what you mean by "easy" so I can't argue. If there's anything that can be learned from this it's that "easy" isn't an especially descriptive term and doesn't qualify statements very well in a debate.

In the case of a good Smasher who knows what he's doing, it doesn't take days to become decent with any given character. After playing other people who are near or above your skill level, Brawl characters are relatively easy to learn and pick up.

Obviously what's "easy" varies from player to player, but I'm talking about someone who probably played Melee and is halfway competent at Brawl. Knowledge of the game engine, which, in this case, is not very hard to attain, means knowledge, be it shallow, of the rest of the cast.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Well, considering all your "Perhaps you mean" scenario's exactly fit the definition for "easy", you could argue.

But, since "easy" can be just in comparison, a definition is not necessary. The point is that Brawl is easier than Melee, regardless of any definition of "easy".

Imagine that mastering Melee has a difficulty rating of 100. Now you say that Brawl is easier-- that still means nothing. Does it rate a 99? That's technically easier but by an insignificant amount. Does it rate a 70? Maybe it rates a 2. I have no idea. If you insist on a debate you have to define your terms.

 

[WastingPenguins]

In the case of a good Smasher who knows what he's doing, it doesn't take days to become decent with any given character. After playing other people who are near or above your skill level, Brawl characters are relatively easy to learn and pick up.

Obviously what's "easy" varies from player to player, but I'm talking about someone who probably played Melee and is halfway competent at Brawl. Knowledge of the game engine, which, in this case, is not very hard to attain, means knowledge, be it shallow, of the rest of the cast.

If that's true, then why do certain players continue to dominate the tourney scene, winning tourney after tourney? It's because the skill ladder, while obviously smaller than it was in Melee, is still absolutely HUGE. Sure, you can become decent with a character relatively easy, but you can always always always be a better, smarter, more skilled Smash player. It's easy to be "decent" means nothing. Decent against who? 90% of Brawl players probably consider themselves "decent" at the game, and yet the skill level amongst those players varies greatly amongst that group, to say the very LEAST.

 

[Corigames]

You are over complicating an issue just to prove a point completely devoid of any semblance to what his intentions to posting the original claim were.

If you insist on a debate, stick with the original conversation at least instead of focusing on very minor details to distract everyone so that you can try to liable someone not within their own argument.

 

[RDK]

If that's true, then why do certain players continue to dominate the tourney scene, winning tourney after tourney? It's because the skill ladder, while obviously smaller than it was in Melee, is still absolutely HUGE. Sure, you can become decent with a character relatively easy, but you can always always always be a better, smarter, more skilled Smash player. It's easy to be "decent" means nothing. Decent against who? 90% of Brawl players probably consider themselves "decent" at the game, and yet the skill level amongst those players varies greatly amongst that group, to say the very LEAST.

I never said you'd be able to pick up a character and be tournament-worthy with it; my main argument was that it's easier to do this than in Melee because of the universal effects of the engine on the characters.

You're blowing this WAY out of proportion.

 

[IrArby]

But is it 70 easier or 2 easier? lol

Wow what incredible pointless spam. No one here is designating exactly how much easier learning new Brawl characters is in comparisson to learning new Melee characters. We are merely saying it is significantly easier. They have much less depth to their metagame in a technical and strategical sense. So it'd be like 40 or whatever your numbering system was.

So yes its significantly easier for your little sister to throw darts at Tiger Woods if your playing Brawl not Melee.

 

[ravenhats]

Here my take on this debate

I to my surprise think the game is more balanced as long as items are not on. I mean the variety of stages and character choices and the removal of wave dashing creates a new level of power to once slower characters that once had many problem, while it reduces the power of the faster characters making them work a bit more. I think many character rarely used in tourney like bowser (beside gimpy of course), DK, Dorf and Zelda which are power houses will be played more often. In return many characters I see played a lot especially by less advanced players like Fox, Falco and Sheik will not be seen so frequently. I'm not saying every things perfect (the nerfing of C. Falcon and puff as well as the power of many new character like Snake isn't good in my opinion) but I do overall think things are more balanced.

My feeling is that if someone really is so upset about the nerfing of their fast character that they don't want to play brawl at least for tournaments because of the changes really aren't that loyal to that fast character to begin with and are simply looking to play to win (yeah I know this sounds strange), as oppose to enjoying the fight regardless of outcome (which is important at all time even in tournaments and usually leads to more patiences and wins). If a player really enjoys a characters fighting style they should find ways to work around new weakness and to make themselves stronger then before to counter the new weaknesses. I always believe one should choose to get good at a character they enjoy and never choose a character style simply because it suppose to be especially strong or weak. I tend to find that those who play a character that matches their fighting style, stick with that character despite their weaknesses and/or changes and enjoy playing that character are much better fighters. I feel any player that chooses the best character for them and builds their skills with that character has a chance defeating any other character do matter who they are. My point is that characters skill levels differences and troubles in certain match ups are far less important then the differences in players own level of skill and ability to cover a character weaknesses and press it's advantages.

 

[Corigames]

That whole post just gave me a headache. I want to say so many things... but I don't want to get banned again.

Please, someone handle this for me. I need to go take a tylenol.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Awwww, come on, I JUST got unbanned the other day too. I SOOO would take this too.

 

[Corigames]

It's just so poorly written, has contradictions, posted by a n00b (and entails all what carries with that), and NEEDS to have someone pounce on it. But I've been peddling hate everywhere today, and someone else has to do this one for me before my eyes roll back in my head.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I really hate to say this, Panda, but if you really don't wanna partake in the debate then why did you even bother posting at all? Faulty logic or no, you're no better than the rest of the people that you perceive as mindless when you post **** like "that is a complete and utter lie."

You can go ahead and give me an infraction for calling you out on this. I don't care. I just thought, as a moderator, you'd bring to bear something a little more significant to the topic at hand.

Smooth Criminal

You are absolutely correct. I shouldn't have posted in the first place. I knew it'd bite me in the *** as soon as I hit the "submit reply" button. If anything, it was a post in disgust moreso than a post in logic. I think you can agree that we're all allowed to have moments where our emotions control our actions over our logic. That one was my own.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Sorry but I just got in a huge argument in the "Gay Marriage" thread and at this point the next person I flame is going to get be permabanned.

Edit: Aw come on Panda, don't stop debating your side. The Pro-Brawl side is severely lacking right about now and I don't think Jack Kaiser can do it alone. They need more intelligent people.

 

[Corigames]

Then don't go to the combo video boards. I keep going there expecting to see one video to finally appease me, but I always just end up pointing out everything wrong in their video. I think I'm going to get shot from my comments there one day.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I never said you'd be able to pick up a character and be tournament-worthy with it; my main argument was that it's easier to do this than in Melee because of the universal effects of the engine on the characters.

You're blowing this WAY out of proportion.

Everything has that issue, it's significantly easier to learn a new character in melee as well after playing at all for a while.

The point that they were trying to make was that you were being FAR too heavy-handed with your claim of "you can basically pick up any character in the cast and be good with him". Realistically speaking, you'll be several orders of magnitude weaker then your main if you just "pick up and play". The more tech-dependant characters (ex. Link (bomb techniques, approaches), Zelda (^B, making Din's fire effective), Ganondorf (flamechoke, thunderstorming)) will result in an especially heavy toll on your ability to play.

The engine is somewhat easier to learn in general then melee's, but how much? And does this REALLY make it less diverse?

 

[Fawriel]

Not if you've got an accent when you say it or have zero respect for the Viola as an instrument. I fall into both categories so . . .

Seriously though, its a ****ty violin tuned to C.

...but... but. But.
Voila.
Viola.
Voila.
Viola!
*gesticulates wildly*

...

I need an aspirin.

 

[IrArby]

Mr. ravenhats. What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in your rambling incoherrent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought.

Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having listened to it.

I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul.

 

[RDK]

Everything has that issue, it's significantly easier to learn a new character in melee as well after playing at all for a while.

The point that they were trying to make was that you were being FAR too heavy-handed with your claim of "you can basically pick up any character in the cast and be good with him". Realistically speaking, you'll be several orders of magnitude weaker then your main if you just "pick up and play". The more tech-dependant characters (ex. Link (bomb techniques, approaches), Zelda (^B, making Din's fire effective), Ganondorf (flamechoke, thunderstorming)) will result in an especially heavy toll on your ability to play.

The engine is somewhat easier to learn in general then melee's, but how much? And does this REALLY make it less diverse?

"Good" is far from tournament-worthy; I was merely stating that a general knowledge of the game engine gives you a pretty fair chance at being decent with a large number of the cast. That's all I said, and people started blowing it out of proportion.

 

[adumbrodeus]

"Good" is far from tournament-worthy; I was merely stating that a general knowledge of the game engine gives you a pretty fair chance at being decent with a large number of the cast. That's all I said, and people started blowing it out of proportion.

I think that people blew it out of proportion because it isn't much of a demirit unless you mean an equivalent level to the character you have played before or only an insignificant amount below.

If there's a reasonable gap then, big deal, having played the game before with a different character at a reasonably high level of play will help you in any game that has that distinction.

In my Soul Calibur 2 expirience with Kilik helped me with playing Asteroth and Ivy, similarly, in melee, playing Zelda helped me to learn Sheik, Roy, and Marth, and in starcraft, playing the Terrans definately improved my Protoss game when I picked them up.


This doesn't suggest a diversity issue because you'll still be several orders of magnitude weaker then with a character you are more expirienced with. Granted, some characters are simplistic, so it varies. But the fact remains that there's enough of a difference to keep you from being any more then reasonable without character-specific knowledge.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think RDK realises what he said (though I guess I can't actually speak for him, but hey niether can you). What he said, by my interpreatation, was that the physics engine is such that most chars feel the same. They play very similar particularly feel wise and because of this picking up new chars is relatively easy.

IMO I would add that the lack of ATs further exacerbates this similar feel amongst the Brawl cast. Obviously, (B moves aside) attacks have different priority, knockback, and the so forth but the overall feel of the cast is very similar.

Some characters do have that feel, but the whole cast, I don't know if I'd go that far.

Not saying your wrong, I just don't see how playing Olimar is really similar to playing Ike.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Witchking: please don't nitpick. Its very annoying. Do you have a particular phrase you'd prefer in place of "Wa La"? I could say "presto!" or just something lame like "and there you have it"

It might be nitpicking, but there's a point at which my tolerance for lack of linguistic knowledge stops. When people spell words "Wa La" and "two shay" my head just explodes.

It's a french word that you spell voilà. In French it means approximately "look!" or "look here!" or something to that extent (French native speakers could probably find a more fitting translation, but whatever). In English, it's used to express satisfaction with something. It is pronounced "vwah-lah." Not wa la.

Fawriel, pass me one of those aspirins please.

 

[IrArby]

Some characters do have that feel, but the whole cast, I don't know if I'd go that far.

Not saying your wrong, I just don't see how playing Olimar is really similar to playing Ike.

IMO I think alot of the "same feel" for every character comes from the lack of ATs. Theres a timing to every character for whatever you do AT-wise in Melee. Whether its wavedashing, shffling aerials, dashdancing, etc. they all respond differently when you use those techniques. In Brawl this is lacking (obviously, but no I'm not really trying to knock Brawl or anything) so the chars often "feel" the same. They don't play the same since everyone has different Bmoves and their Amoves all have different priority, knockback, etc but how you move each character is very similar.

Witchking: If you truly want to lecture on linguistic history and accurate word usage you have to accept that many of the words we use no longer share the same meaning, spelling, or contextual uses of their original derivatives. Wa La may be technically wrong, I'm not arguing that, but the point is you understood what I said and even if its wrong I've heard people say/spell it that way so from my stand point its the next evolution of the phrase. Ain't wasn't a word until enough people said it that way. In England, they don't pronounce Portsmouth as Ports Mouth. Its more like Ports Muth. Thats just the natural evolution of language.
I wasn't speaking Ebonics or anything so I don't see a problem. I'm sorry, this paragraph is way too long for such an insignificant issue.

 

[RDK]

Red Ryu, I'm talking about the effects of the engine's physics acting on the characters moreso than the characters themselves. Character control and movement is fundamentally universal, where it wasn't in Melee.

 

[thumbswayup]

Witchking just owned IrArby.

 

[infernovia]

I didn't understand what you meant by Wa la. I thought you were speaking gibberish.

I don't feel like I have the necessary experience to deem what is more balanced though.

 

[ravenhats]

Saying my post makes no sense seems to me a ploy for trying discounting my opinion as stupid and thus not worth noting (thus flaming me). I understand that you may have disagreement with what I say, but spouting that it makes no sense just because you disagree strongly with it seems really like you didn't even bother trying to talk about what I have to say. I really see nothing that didn't make sense to me in the post after re-reading it their was a few minor errors in the way I wrote it but thats about it.

It was long but I knew it would have to be to defend my position, my guess is that many of you didn't read the entire thing and disagreed with my feelings strongly (which is okay). What is not okay, however is instead of talking about our disagreements in polite way you flame me and call me a idiot (something I believe is never right to do). It's alright to call me entirely wrong if it is done in a polite and civil way with constructive comments, but to tell me it makes no sense looks to me simply like a cover to avoid reading my entire post or debating with me. (By the way since when were you the only one that can give out points?) Even if it didn't make sense you didn't ask me to clarify or explain further anything that confused you.

On another note please don't take my statement about my statement with fast characters like I don't care or understand. I know it's tough not being able to wave dash, but I think that a strong player can work around this or find a new character that matches their style. I didn't want people to twist my words into believing I'm insulting wave dashing, but balance wise the game is better without it.

 

[IrArby]

I'm sorry ravenhats. We should have given you the opinion to express your option rather than trying discounting your option. Were all just expressing our options here after all. Its all a matter of option. You'll have to forgive us of our flaming since everyone in this thread is very optionated about wave dashing.

. . . *looks around*

Witchking where the **** are you now?

 

[Krooton]

I would have to agree with Raven on that peeps. Please don't flame and just discuss it after all the forum is called...Brawl Tactical DISCUSSION

 

[gantrain05]

I'm sorry ravenhats. We should have given you the opinion to express your option rather than trying discounting your option. Were all just expressing our options here after all. Its all a matter of option. You'll have to forgive us of our flaming since everyone in this thread is very optionated about wave dashing.

. . . *looks around*

Witchking where the **** are you now?

lol.....just....lol, but anyways from now on i guess i'll feel free to speak my option as well.

 

[ravenhats]

If that was sarcasm then it was quite rude, I'm sorry I didn't spell that word right you got me their (I always spell that one wrong) but saying I'm stupid because of a spelling error is just a cheap shot, we all spell things wrong. If it was genuine (besides the opinion part) then please next time cool it don't be so OPINIONATED that you over look what I'm say because disagree with. The fact that you did understand what I was trying to say despite the spelling tells that you did understand my post loud and clear (I found it spelled wrong a total of twice)! I will edit both post if it helps you read better, problem solved it was that simple.