Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Smooth Criminal]

lol clones are fun. it means less work involved in learning multiple characters cause they fight the same.

Oh, yes.

Let's see you try and play Melee Ganondorf like Melee Captain Falcon. Good luck trying to land that knee, mang.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Fletch]

lol clones are fun. it means less work involved in learning multiple characters cause they fight the same.

As I stated before, basically none of the clones in Melee save maybe the Marios play the same.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yes, because as his example showed, a match against Falcon was exactly the same as a match against Ganon, a Falcon clone.

It wasn't stale. And, even to that extent, the game engine allowed for more excitement regardless of the moves to which some of the characters used. Had the game been just Fox, it would have been more exciting than almost anything Brawl. Yes, it would have repeat after repeat of matches, but the gameplay that results from Fox dittos is crazy fast, technical, and full of mind games.

Even if there were a handful of characters that were clones, how many played exactly the same? There was Fox and Falco. They were both high tiered but for two completely different reasons. Mario and Doc. These are the closest to actual clones in the game, but there are slight differences which gave doc a noticeable advantage. Ganon and Falcon. That difference is painfully obvious. Link and Young Link. They both are little spammy whores, but one of them is much, much better at it. Marth and Roy? Woooooowwww. Pichu and Pika chu. Pichu was everything Pikachu was, but 20X worse for some reason.

I'm not arguing a better character, I'm saying it's stale/boring.

 

[RDK]

But by making clone characters it makes the game more stale and a lazy way for the designers to add in an extra character.

Whether or not the game is "stale" is subjective, and you'll be hard pressed to find anyone else who thinks Melee is stale when compared to Brawl.

Brawl is the complete flipside in this situation. You have a game with a buttload of unique characters, but the game engine is so watered down that you can basically pick up any character in the game and be good with him if you know what you're doing (and sometimes even if you don't). In Melee, yes, there were clones, but the game engine was amazing and technically deep, which in turn allowed for incredible mindgame development and character control.

Melee may be stale to some after 7 years, but I sure as hell don't think so. It's a bottomless pit of potential. IMO, Brawl has become stale before it's year cherry's even been popped.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm saying throwing in Clone character into any game is stale, not just Melee.

Brawl is the complete flipside in this situation. You have a game with a buttload of unique characters, but the game engine is so watered down that you can basically pick up any character in the game and be good with him if you know what you're doing (and sometimes even if you don't).

If you know what your doing, 99% of the time, your vet who's played Smash before. If you can effectively play the character well after picking him up, you may just have a good sync with that character.

 

[RDK]

I'm saying throwing in Clone character into any game is stale, not just Melee.



If you know what your doing, 99% of the time, your vet who's played Smash before. If you can effectively play the character well after picking him up, you may just have a good sync with that character.

I don't really see what your argument is here, but even if you're not a Smash veteran, once you become familiar with how Brawl's engine works, its effects are so universal that you can pick up the whole roster fairly well after just playing a handfull of characters.

In Melee, the character differences and properties were so different that each had a unique handle and quality to them. In Brawl, despite how many characters there are, the engine makes them fundamentally the same. They don't even have different fall speeds for crying out loud.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't really see what your argument is here, but even if you're not a Smash veteran, once you become familiar with how Brawl's engine works, its effects are so universal that you can pick up the whole roster fairly well after just playing a handfull of characters.

It's easier for vets to pick up due to past experience in Melee or even the original. You know how smash works, it's easy to pick up a character. After playing Melee for seven years, I could literally pick random and do perfectly fine, despite my mains not being picked.

In Melee, the character differences and properties were so different that each had a unique handle and quality to them. In Brawl, despite how many characters there are, the engine makes them fundamentally the same. They don't even have different fall speeds for crying out loud.

Do you even play the game at all?

Or are you too blind to see that Olimar, Jigglypuff, and Lucario have slow falling speeds, where as the space animals all have fast falling speeds.

 

[Zankoku]

They don't seem to fall very fast to me. Link and Dedede are among the few who seem to fall significantly faster.

 

[RDK]

It's easier for vets to pick up due to past experience in Melee or even the original. You know how smash works, it's easy to pick up a character. After playing Melee for seven years, I could literally pick random and do perfectly fine, despite my mains not being picked.



Do you even play the game at all?

Or are you too blind to see that Olimar, Jigglypuff, and Lucario have slow falling speeds, where as the space animals all have fast falling speeds.

Their different falling speeds are so minimally different when compared with the rest of the cast that it's moot. My point was that I think Bowser should fall faster than Kirby.

And about ease of playing, it's not my fault you're not a Smash vet. What I'm saying is when you get to the higher levels of play, the characters are fundamentally the same, unlike in Melee. When you're a n00b, the roster may seem diverse, but n00b playing doesn't factor into this discussion.

 

[gantrain05]

Their different falling speeds are so minimally different when compared with the rest of the cast that it's moot. My point was that I think Bowser should fall faster than Kirby.

And about ease of playing, it's not my fault you're not a Smash vet. What I'm saying is when you get to the higher levels of play, the characters are fundamentally the same, unlike in Melee. When you're a n00b, the roster may seem diverse, but n00b playing doesn't factor into this discussion.

yeah so, lets make bowser fall faster so like fox and falco when you knock him strait off an edge has has 0 chance to recover lol. floaty bowser is good imo.

 

[IrArby]

Totally with RDK here. It takes all of 10 mins to become affluent with a new Brawl Character. Oh I wanna pick up Falco: well hes got the CG on some chars, hes got the DashAttack>Upsmash, these aerials have good/bad priority, and Wa La Falco is one of my 7 or 8 secondaries. I'm dumbing it down a bit here but you get the jist of it. I would play with a new Melee char for a few hours (assuming I have some ideas on how to actually play and combo with him) preferabbly before a friendly and hopefully a few days and several friendlies before I used him in a tournament.

The Melee clone argument is completely false/********. Brawl chars are limited by the physics engine that makes them all feel like clones. Melee, everyone had different timing to thier jumps thus different wavedash timing different wavedash lengths, jump faster fell significantly faster or slower, had different means of recovery. I'm barely scratching the surface. The chars in Brawl are fundamentally the same since none of them have ATs that give them other distinct differences in their metagame.

Is anyone else tired of hearing Brawl peeps saying stuff like "oh yeah Melee had AT like wavedashin or whatever but Brawl . . . " It annoys me that people throw out a passing reference to "wavedashing" or "L Canceling" as if they really understand the technique and its applications, significance, etc. Just had to get that off my chest. It kills me.

 

[gantrain05]

Totally with RDK here. It takes all of 10 mins to become affluent with a new Brawl Character. Oh I wanna pick up Falco: well hes got the CG on some chars, hes got the DashAttack>Upsmash, these aerials have good/bad priority, and Wa La Falco is one of my 7 or 8 secondaries. I'm dumbing it down a bit here but you get the jist of it. I would play with a new Melee char for a few hours (assuming I have some ideas on how to actually play and combo with him) preferabbly before a friendly and hopefully a few days and several friendlies before I used him in a tournament.

The Melee clone argument is completely false/********. Brawl chars are limited by the physics engine that makes them all feel like clones. Melee, everyone had different timing to thier jumps thus different wavedash timing different wavedash lengths, jump faster fell significantly faster or slower, had different means of recovery. I'm barely scratching the surface. The chars in Brawl are fundamentally the same since none of them have ATs that give them other distinct differences in their metagame.

Is anyone else tired of hearing Brawl peeps saying stuff like "oh yeah Melee had AT like wavedashin or whatever but Brawl . . . " It annoys me that people throw out a passing reference to "wavedashing" or "L Canceling" as if they really understand the technique and its applications, significance, etc. Just had to get that off my chest. It kills me.

AT's weren't the what made character clones in melee unique man, it helped but just because they are gone you sound bitter and are just bashing on brawl, sure it might be an easier learning curve in brawl but u still aren't going to go to any tourney with a couple hours of experience with a character and do good, the only reason u have 7 or 8 secondaries is because the game is new and not too many people are good at it yet so u probably beat up on some noobs. theres alot more differences between the characters in brawl than u give them credit for.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Oh, yes.

Let's see you try and play Melee Ganondorf like Melee Captain Falcon. Good luck trying to land that knee, mang.

Smooth Criminal

i think you misunderstood me. It's like two maple trees. at first glance their both the same tree, but when you really examine them both fully you can find many differences. what i ment was that clone characters are at base similar but when you play as them more you see some differences. i couldn't play as melee Ganon like CF, but if i knew how to play as one i could pick the other up easily and not have to learn as much to start using them.

As I stated before, basically none of the clones in Melee save maybe the Marios play the same.

this i agree with more because both Mario's had very little differences between them.

 

[IrArby]

AT's weren't the what made character clones in melee unique man, it helped but just because they are gone you sound bitter and are just bashing on brawl, sure it might be an easier learning curve in brawl but u still aren't going to go to any tourney with a couple hours of experience with a character and do good, the only reason u have 7 or 8 secondaries is because the game is new and not too many people are good at it yet so u probably beat up on some noobs. theres alot more differences between the characters in brawl than u give them credit for.

I don't think I specified how much time I would dedicate to one char in Brawl before using him in a tourney so thanks for assuming something and pulling "a couple hours of experience" out of nowhere. I don't actually have 7 or 8 secondaries since I have better things to do with my time. Besides 8 chars + ten mins to learn how they play. Thats and hour and 20 mins of Brawl and thats way to long. I can only float around Smashville for so long man.

Yes there are more differences between chars then the ones I listed in my very short concise paragraph. But they are easilly learned. You don't even need to reference the boards you can easily (and I mean very easily) figure out the UnATs of every Brawl character, by yourself, against a CPU, 9 times out of 10.

And yes I would go to a tournament with only a few days of playing MK in friendlies and probably beat better players who have too much decency to play such a cheap broken character.

Oh yea and ATs made all the difference. Why the F@CK do you think everyone is talking about going back to Melee? Seriously its not cause we miss Pichu.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

And yes I would go to a tournament with only a few days of playing MK in friendlies and probably beat better players who have too much decency to play such a cheap broken character.

Oh yea and ATs made all the difference. Why the F@CK do you think everyone is talking about going back to Melee? Seriously its not cause we miss Pichu.

MK is not broke just hard to beat i think

and i miss Pichu

 

[gantrain05]

I don't think I specified how much time I would dedicate to one char in Brawl before using him in a tourney so thanks for assuming something and pulling "a couple hours of experience" out of nowhere. I don't actually have 7 or 8 secondaries since I have better things to do with my time. Besides 8 chars + ten mins to learn how they play. Thats and hour and 20 mins of Brawl and thats way to long. I can only float around Smashville for so long man.

Yes there are more differences between chars then the ones I listed in my very short concise paragraph. But they are easilly learned. You don't even need to reference the boards you can easily (and I mean very easily) figure out the UnATs of every Brawl character, by yourself, against a CPU, 9 times out of 10.

And yes I would go to a tournament with only a few days of playing MK in friendlies and probably beat better players who have too much decency to play such a cheap broken character.

Oh yea and ATs made all the difference. Why the F@CK do you think everyone is talking about going back to Melee? Seriously its not cause we miss Pichu.

not really everyone is talking about going back to melee, theres actually a very strong brawl following, and i didn't pull numbers out of thin air, 10 minutes to become affluent huh? go to a tourney with 10 minutes of play with snake and see how well you do. he's not up there because he's broken like MK he's up there because people actually took the time to become good with him, hours upon hours of training to become good with him, just because your upset melee is getting old doesn't mean u have to be hatin on brawl so much that it makes u look like a fool.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

[...] and Wa La Falco is one of my 7 or 8 secondaries. [...]

Please tell me that "Wa La" is a joke.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I actually think the characters are significanlty more different from eachother in Brawl than in melee. This might be because I specialize in characters like Snake, Olimar, and Lucario, but somehow, even the typical characters feel more different in Brawl. Sure they all jump the same, but they all have extremely defining attributes, except Mario. Luigi has huge slide, MK is fast and flies, R.O.B. is an ungimpable camper, Pit is a gliding spammer, D.K. is a powerful spiker, etc.

 

[AlexX]

And yes I would go to a tournament with only a few days of playing MK in friendlies and probably beat better players who have too much decency to play such a cheap broken character.

A good player shouldn't lose to an inexperienced MK so easily.

I wish people would stop treating Snake and MK like they're unbeatable by anyone but each other. They're good, there's no denying that, but they can be beaten with other characters.

 

[Fawriel]

and i miss Pichu

I feel your pain.

Please tell me that "Wa La" is a joke.

Hey, in Walla
I'll see you in a Walla Walla
Slap on the wrist? Well, not this time
Hey, in Walla
I'll see you in a Walla Walla
Folsom prison is the destination!



*ahem*
Whether characters play more differently or not is a whole different can of beans. I did notice that everyone has a pretty unique way of moving which differs from everyone else. That's pretty cool. On the other hand, the physics do make most battles boil down to the same old tactics, with only slight variations depending on the character. So, yeah. Variety is there, just not if you are playing to win.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Their different falling speeds are so minimally different when compared with the rest of the cast that it's moot. My point was that I think Bowser should fall faster than Kirby.

Technically a baseball and a bowling ball should fall the same speed if perfectly spherical.

Your still blind if you can't see differences between some of the heavier, middle and lighter characters.

And about ease of playing, it's not my fault you're not a Smash vet. What I'm saying is when you get to the higher levels of play, the characters are fundamentally the same, unlike in Melee. When you're a n00b, the roster may seem diverse, but n00b playing doesn't factor into this discussion.

You need to read better.

I was stating I've played it for seven, since it's release.

 

[Zankoku]

You need to read better.

I was stating I've played it for seven, since it's release.

I've played it for two, and I'd be freakin' amazing if I could successfully play Captain Falcon like Ganondorf, or Roy like Marth, or Link like Young Link. They run at different speeds, fall at different speeds, have different jump heights, have significantly different forms of recovery... not to mention their different attacks.

Diversity is the last thing to worry about when it comes to either game, though it's not very difficult to get a handle on any character's physics in Brawl because most of them are quite similar.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I've played it for two, and I'd be freakin' amazing if I could successfully play Captain Falcon like Ganondorf, or Roy like Marth, or Link like Young Link. They run at different speeds, fall at different speeds, have different jump heights, have significantly different forms of recovery... not to mention their different attacks.

Diversity is the last thing to worry about when it comes to either game, though it's not very difficult to get a handle on any character's physics in Brawl because most of them are quite similar.

The physics between characters are similar, but some characters are campers and spammers, some need to play offence, some need to stay in the air, and some need to stay on the ground. The difference in playstyles in Brawl, even at the competitive scene, is diverse to the point of actually harming the games competitive viability, as it too often includes camping and spamming. However, almost every playstyle has at least one if not more corresponding character that excels at it, with greater extremes than melee. That makes Brawl's characters seem more diverse to many people.

 

[Corigames]

A good player shouldn't lose to an inexperienced MK so easily.

I wish people would stop treating Snake and MK like they're unbeatable by anyone but each other. They're good, there's no denying that, but they can be beaten with other characters.

Results of AZ one two step this weekend.

Notice the number of Snakes that made top 8:
http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4714750&postcount=25

You need to read better.

I was stating I've played it for seven, since it's release.

I started young too, but that doesn't mean I was good. I didn't get good at melee until I *gasp* started playing competitively. Seems like all those years of item matches and playing without ATs added up to nothing when I played against tournament go-ers.

 

[IrArby]

The physics between characters are similar, but some characters are campers and spammers, some need to play offence, some need to stay in the air, and some need to stay on the ground. ]

Most of those are subcategories that fall under camper or not camper. Most campers spam and stay on the ground unless their spamcamping (or "spamping" "scaming" "scampers" w/e) requires them to jump and shoot ****. Same difference.

The other style is the play offense style. So you don't get spamped. Pretty simple.

I wouldn't call jumping or not jumping a playstyle per se. It more like can you approach on the ground or do you have to do aerials so your not shieldgrabbed or outranged on the ground.

Oh yea theres three types of playstyles. Spam Camping, Offensive, and Chain Grabbers. Its not offensive since its more of a turtleing defensive style until you get your grab in.

Witchking: please don't nitpick. Its very annoying. Do you have a particular phrase you'd prefer in place of "Wa La"? I could say "presto!" or just something lame like "and there you have it"

gaintrain05: I wrote you a really nasty response earlier and when I went to post it my internet failed me for some reason. I went straight to work after that so I'll spare you the long insulting post I made earlier. Suffice it to say your arguments about bitter Melee players is ScrubSpeak, Snake does not take "hours upon hours" to master his techniques/playstyle, and I specifically said I'd take a MK to a tourney after Several days of friendlies. Not 10 mins so piss off. People even quoted me on it. Your wrong again.

 

[Zankoku]

Isn't the proper saying voila?

 

[IrArby]

Not if you've got an accent when you say it or have zero respect for the Viola as an instrument. I fall into both categories so . . .

Seriously though, its a ****ty violin tuned to C.

 

[AlexX]

Results of AZ one two step this weekend.

Notice the number of Snakes that made top 8:
http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4714750&postcount=25

That does not prove Snake is unbeatable by anyone but himself and MK, it just shows three good Snake players were at the tournament.

 

[Corigames]

Yeah, but you said, "there's only 3 on that list"

3 Snakes made it into top 8. 2. THREEEEEEEEEE

Three.


BTW, that's 1+1+1

There are three. Tres. Out of 36 or w/e characters, there were 3 snakes in the top 8. THREE. One only being beaten.... BY ANOTHER SNAKE!!!!

3 Snakes.

 

[RDK]

Yeah, but you said, "there's only 3 on that list"

3 Snakes made it into top 8. 2. THREEEEEEEEEE

Three.


BTW, that's 1+1+1

There are three. Tres. Out of 36 or w/e characters, there were 3 snakes in the top 8. THREE. One only being beaten.... BY ANOTHER SNAKE!!!!

3 Snakes.

5 out of the top 6 at March Madness were Snakes. The second-to-last was a Metaknight.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I've played it for two, and I'd be freakin' amazing if I could successfully play Captain Falcon like Ganondorf, or Roy like Marth, or Link like Young Link. They run at different speeds, fall at different speeds, have different jump heights, have significantly different forms of recovery... not to mention their different attacks.

If you've play smash enough, you can pick up a new character pretty easily. You need some practice to fine tune it, of course., but this isn't new for picking up anyone.

Diversity is the last thing to worry about when it comes to either game, though it's not very difficult to get a handle on any character's physics in Brawl because most of them are quite similar.

This is true, however when you want a game to sell to either fanboys or hard core gamers you need to make it appeal to the target audience. Adding in Sonic and Snake only added more fanboys to get hooked, which Sonic and Olimar got me hooked on buying it even more. Diversty isn't require or even a first priority for competitive gaming, but it's very helpful in marketing a game being sold to the general market.

I'm not sure about the physics part. It's easier due to the floaty nature of Brawl, but I don't see the direct singularities of the whole cast to each other with the physics engine.

I started young too, but that doesn't mean I was good. I didn't get good at melee until I *gasp* started playing competitively. Seems like all those years of item matches and playing without ATs added up to nothing when I played against tournament go-ers.

It shows past experience with the game.

Which is my point, if you have past experience with Smash, picking up different characters should be incredibly easy no matter what your playing; 64, Melee, or Brawl.

It's easier for newcomers to pick up characters in Brawl, but that isn't going to help them if the opponent is a smash pro.

 

[AlexX]

5 out of the top 6 at March Madness were Snakes. The second-to-last was a Metaknight.

That was back in March, though.

Even so, I know there are other characters that have won tournaments like Dedede. Granted, they're all still upper-tier characters, but aren't upper-ter characters expected to do well in tournaments?

 

[Zankoku]

It shows past experience with the game.

Which is my point, if you have past experience with Smash, picking up different characters should be incredibly easy no matter what your playing; 64, Melee, or Brawl.

My past experience with Smash from 2001 to 2005 did nothing to help me on my learning of competitive Smash in 2006. Playing a noob Sheik that just dash attacks a lot or a smash-attack spamming Marth/Falco/whatever will not make actually learning those characters any easier on you when you decide to pick them up in a competitive sense.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Brawl is the complete flipside in this situation. You have a game with a buttload of unique characters, but the game engine is so watered down that you can basically pick up any character in the game and be good with him if you know what you're doing (and sometimes even if you don't).

That is a complete and utter lie.

 

[IrArby]

That is a complete and utter lie.

IrArby Respectfully disagrees. Please qualify your opinion in opposition to what RDK said.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

My past experience with Smash from 2001 to 2005 did nothing to help me on my learning of competitive Smash in 2006. Playing a noob Sheik that just dash attacks a lot or a smash-attack spamming Marth/Falco/whatever will not make actually learning those characters any easier on you when you decide to pick them up in a competitive sense.

I should rephrase, "If you have experience with Smash in a non-noob like sense picking up different characters should be incredibly easy no matter what your playing; 64, Melee, or Brawl."

That is a complete and utter lie.

No, he just doesn't realize that what he said was you can be good with a character if you know what you are doing. Which is kind of what you should be doing in smash anyways, knowing how to play a character.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

IrArby Respectfully disagrees. Please qualify your opinion in opposition to what RDK said.

Sorry, I refuse to join such petty and silly conversations. Arguing over the intertubes is fun and all, but I've personally decided to stop debating points of Melee vs Brawl or defending Brawl against people with what I perceive to be faulty logic. So I will have to respectfully decline to join you in this debate. The only reason I initially responded was due to the outlandishly ridiculous claims the initial comment made.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Sorry, I refuse to join such petty and silly conversations. Arguing over the intertubes is fun and all, but I've personally decided to stop debating points of Melee vs Brawl or defending Brawl against people with what I perceive to be faulty logic. So I will have to respectfully decline to join you in this debate. The only reason I initially responded was due to the outlandishly ridiculous claims the initial comment made.

I really hate to say this, Panda, but if you really don't wanna partake in the debate then why did you even bother posting at all? Faulty logic or no, you're no better than the rest of the people that you perceive as mindless when you post **** like "that is a complete and utter lie."

You can go ahead and give me an infraction for calling you out on this. I don't care. I just thought, as a moderator, you'd bring to bear something a little more significant to the topic at hand.

Smooth Criminal

 

[IrArby]

No, he just doesn't realize that what he said was you can be good with a character if you know what you are doing. Which is kind of what you should be doing in smash anyways, knowing how to play a character.

I think RDK realises what he said (though I guess I can't actually speak for him, but hey niether can you). What he said, by my interpreatation, was that the physics engine is such that most chars feel the same. They play very similar particularly feel wise and because of this picking up new chars is relatively easy.

IMO I would add that the lack of ATs further exacerbates this similar feel amongst the Brawl cast. Obviously, (B moves aside) attacks have different priority, knockback, and the so forth but the overall feel of the cast is very similar.

And Samurai Panda: if your not going to debate well . . . isn't that like half of the reason that were on Smashboards. First half is to learn to play. Granted Smashboards is a great way to find the nearest Smash Scene in your vicinity but discussing the game is half the fun ryt? Seriously, for my part at least this will not become a round about argument that leads to insulting and that type a ****.

 

[Rex+]

I really hate to say this, Panda, but if you really don't wanna partake in the debate then why did you even bother posting at all? Faulty logic or no, you're no better than the rest of the people that you perceive as mindless when you post **** like "that is a complete and utter lie."

You can go ahead and give me an infraction for calling you out on this. I don't care. I just thought, as a moderator, you'd bring to bear something a little more significant to the topic at hand.

Smooth Criminal

You go, Smooth.