Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Krooton]

God so much anger of a game...god. I wish everyone was less serious about this game and played it to have fun. Thats why I play a game...to have fun, not to Insult people based on typos in a forum cause I have nothing better to do in my life then insult people's typos when I could be out in the world or playing brawl with friends...or Melee I don't care.

 

[IrArby]

Krooton: If you could make sense of that post then you are the only one. Wavedashing has NEVER been cited as the reason that Brawl is more balanced. Seriously there where many SLOW characters with awesome Wavedashes and Fast characters with terrible wavedashes. He didn't say anything about Ganon btw but he did mention one "Dorf" lol, and yes maybe fox, falco, and shiek got the nerf going from Melee to Brawl but at the cost of 2 (arguably) broken characters MK/Snake.

Bowser, GanonDORF and DK are definetly more playable in Melee. The only possible exception being DK who has pretty good potential in Brawl but that has nothing to do with the lack of wavedashing.

Also that was definetly a pretty mild flame seeing as everyone else was sure that if they responded they'd get banned simply because they'd have to completely flame the whole post.

The reason no one responded and refuted his points is becuase they didn't merit the time or effort. They were that bad. Unfortunately, I'm being accused of not qualifying my statements or fairly disassembling his points so I had to type this long pointless post to tell you guys what everyone in this thread already knew.

Oh yea. It probably is unfair of me to make fun of ravenhats for typing option instead of opinion since I am the guy who put Bombshielder instead of Bombsoilder. I still laugh about it btw. However, aside from that one unfair criticism, everything else is completely legit.

 

[Fawriel]

Guys, take ravenhats seriously now, please. Okay, his points are pretty badly informed and subjective, which might make him a "noob", but he's not acting like a stupid "n00b" about it, so be civil.

Maybe Yuna should list some good arguments in the first post for easy access?

Anyway, here's two little things I'll say about your arguments, ravenhats:

1. Wavedashing is not a bad thing at all. Firstly, it made the game a lot deeper. Sure, you can work without it, but it's just so much less fun for both the players and the audience.
And, contrary to popular belief, it didn't decrease the balance in Melee. If anything, it helped it. Sure, Fox and Falco went past Sheik in godliness, but it also greatly helps Mewtwo, Ice Climbers, Luigi, and so on, and it gives EVERY character the chance to even out their own flaws a bit by giving everyone a boost in the ability to approach, defend and counter. Without wavedashing and l-canceling, Melee's balance is absolutely atrocious, but with it, everyone has some sort of options, and Mewtwo becomes capable of comboing and KOing Sheik, which would be impossible otherwise.

2. You say speedy characters are at less of an advantage now and heavies are better off. I call shenanigans.
First, you have to define speed. I can pretty certainly say that running speed is a minor factor. Speed is at its greatest importance in the moves of a character, in combination with range. It was like that in Melee, and it's like that in Brawl. That is why superfast Pichu, with all its speed, was bottom tier, and slow Ganondorf was middle tier thanks to his range.
Sure, Dedede seems slow-moving, but he's only considered good because he DOES have speed AND range in most of his MOVES. Running speed doesn't matter when your weapon covers a giant distance in the blink of an eye. And the other reason is his chain-grab. DK, likewise, is good because of his speedy and rangy tilts and bair.
Meanwhile Ganondorf and Captain Falcon are at the bottom (though people are arguing about Ganondorf, who, guess what, has range), because their moves have a lot of lag.
Who doesn't have lag at all? Metaknight. The ultimate in speed, with good range to boot. And considered one of, if not the best character in Brawl.

Heck, speed might well be even more important in Brawl. Think about it, powershielding is SO easy now. If you used an attack with just a bit of lag after it, and it gets powershielded, you're going to be attacked.
And the hitstun is SO low, you can only follow up into a combo if your moves come out fast and end fast. Slow characters don't have this luxury.

 

[Yuna]

Maybe Yuna should list some good arguments in the first post for easy access?

Better yet, maybe I should edit the OP to reflect that we determined that it's too early to really say anything definite at the moment months ago. But it's still funny to see people only bothering to read the OP before responding.

I only come into this thread from time to time now to refute certain "arguments" people use for why Brawl is more or less balanced than Melee and misguided opinions such as "Wavedashing was a stupid glitch that ruined the game!!!11".

 

[Krooton]

Why must you constantly say the things which having nothing to do with what people said...I don't care if Wavedashing hasn't been cited...what is this a bibliography? I've just seen way to many shiek, fox, and falco players in Melee...it bored me and ruin the game for me at tournaments. I play the game for fun...and how can you say Bowser is worst then DK and Ganondorf. Have you ever seen Gimpyfish play? You would probably say he sucks because he plays Bowser as a main. I've seen him kick Fast Characters Butts and I myself have kicked DK's butt with Bowser before. Its isn't that hard. You just have to know what your doing. Now that bowser has been buffed (in my opinion) he is even better. You know whats better then putting up a "mild" flame...not flaming at all. You need to stop this stupid arguement and get on with your life. You know what I find funny though...most flamers are 10 year olds who kick and scream and whine until their argument is accepted. Well I ain't accepting yours because your the one who makes no sense...just because I know how to read confusing things...which by the way all the typos have been fixed, doesn't mean I'm stupid person...that would make the smarter person wouldn't it? And don't give me that crud about how slow characters have good wavedashing...I've seen pros with slow charachters...They DON'T WAVE DASH. Fox, Falco, and Shiek players all do...I've seen mario and luigi players do it too...oh and don't forget Marth. You know what I fine funny? A lot of movies that I've seen of players fighting in tournaments...almost none of them wavedash...people that do wave dash end up getting SDs. If they were bad opinions...which I'm not saying they are why did you respond to them with hatred as if he was a total idiot...which he isn't. Also I have to call you an idiot now because MK and Snake are not broken characters. MK would been a very high tier character and Snake would be up there or in middle tiers. They are both very good characters.

 

[Krooton]

I'm done with arguments I want to have fun and friends on smash boards. Not enemies.

 

[ravenhats]

So your now think not putting his full name is some sort of crime? Again you prove that you did understand my post making your first post about not understanding it a lie.

Saying they are more playable is a matter opinion not solid fact as far as I see it. Their is likely evidence to back both of out claims up of course. Thats what I wanted to hear though in the first place though, not simply a bunch nonsense involving typos and not understanding. What does playable mean, it's a vague term it could mean rolling, grabs, attacks or movement (running). I feel that the nerfs of Fox, Falco, C Falcon (no I don't want any more from you about shortening of names) and Shiek were good ones (I did mention though that some of the new characters were unbalanced which isn't good) and that overall I feel these nerfs make up for the broken character (matter of option). They didn't really nerf Marth, a move they should have made.

The other people by the way seemed to be referring to a different post by panda and if not they at least they did not flame me out of politeness. Telling other people you know what they are going to say is always bad move, I wouldn't assume you know what others think. Flaming also hurts, maybe not you but other get hurt. Krooton is right this is a place to discuss not flame no matter how small.

 

[ravenhats]

Thank you Fawriel finally someone who wants to talk to me about this instead of tell me what I'm spelling wrong. You have very good points.

1. I never said it was always a bad thing, I just felt that wave dashing gives certain characters clear advantages. I understand that feeling that dashing was good, my feeling is that dash made Fox, Falco, and Shiek too strong. Taking away dashing hurts all characters I feel but it hurts Fox, Falco, and Shiek the most where it hurt the one that didn't use it as much less (DK for example) adding to the balance.

2. your right about 2. I should have stated wave dashing effectiveness. I simplfied things too much which was wrong. I understand the feeling on dashing and I'm glad you actually talked to me instead just flaming me. I do thing some characters are not well balanced in brawl and I understand how much certain (like the MK and Snake) bother people. What still go back to is even if melee is better then brawl people should play more attention to the fact that a players skill is much more important then anything that can be changed.

 

[Remzi]

I would say that yes, it is more balanced than Melee, but not by much. There are really only two characters who are far ahead of everyone else because they are flat out broken in every way (Snake and MK of course) but the gap between everyone else is a lot closer than it was in Melee.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Witchking: If you truly want to lecture on linguistic history and accurate word usage you have to accept that many of the words we use no longer share the same meaning, spelling, or contextual uses of their original derivatives. Wa La may be technically wrong, I'm not arguing that, but the point is you understood what I said and even if its wrong I've heard people say/spell it that way so from my stand point its the next evolution of the phrase. Ain't wasn't a word until enough people said it that way. In England, they don't pronounce Portsmouth as Ports Mouth. Its more like Ports Muth. Thats just the natural evolution of language.
I wasn't speaking Ebonics or anything so I don't see a problem. I'm sorry, this paragraph is way too long for such an insignificant issue.

I can't lecture anyone on linguistics because all I know about language comes from my practical experience, which isn't enough. Yes, words change over time, but the thing is that the majority of people in a region/group have to use that word that way/spell it that way for it to become accepted and generally practiced and understood. As far as I know, you are the only one to spell it Wa La. Sure, I could spell the word "computer" kumpyooturr, but I don't thing it would be viewed as anything other than idiotic. Like you said, ain't wasn't a word until enough people said it that way.

I understood it; but only barely. It dawned on me only after I reread the sentence and looked at the context in which it was written.

I think I'm really overreacting here, and it's a really pointless debate anyway. Mostly the reason I made such a big deal out of it is because I often see words with french spellings misspelled and sometimes I think it's ignorance caused by heavy stereotyping of the French that is a reason for this. Many people I know have this type of attitude towards France, over periods of time things like this just start piling up until it explodes on an innocent person, in this case you.


My apologies to the whole thread for being off topic.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

It hasn't been proved already that Brawl is much more balanced than Melee?
Amazingly, even when it has a lot more characters. Every character seem to have lots of potential. MK and Snake got all the hype because of their style an personality, and because they seem very capable. People are still more excited with newcomers. But things are getting more balanced overtime. I've seen fearsome opponents with any character. And, look at the new poll for favorite characters. There are no longer that much Snakes, MKs, etc. That is the success of game well balanced. Off course, perfect balance is impossible, but what Sakurai accomplished is marvelous. What makes Brawl so superior to Melee is balance. Melee's balance is horrible. And is now more evident as you see Brawl.

Many moves in Melee were useless ( A moves and B moves), and they were tuned up in Brawl so they can be used or abused. You've got to be blind if you don't want to see this.

Heavy characters are now competitive. They hit hard and KO easier. And are harder to kill. In melee fast characters were usually good. In Brawl even when fast characters lack of killing moves , they still have something they can use ( MK up B, Sheik down smash, Marth Up B), and heavy characters have some fast attacks to use as well (DDD neutral A, Snake neutral A). Both power and speedy fightstyles can be deadly. Brawl excels over Melee by far with this too. Could you deny it?

Lag-less attacks (Metaknight) are not supremacy in Brawl. Brawl has a good risk-price trade in many attacks. Kirby's ground hammer, Lucas U smash, Luigi's Up B, are laggy attacks, but as deadly as well.
Also, in brawl is not so easy to punish a low lag move with a powerful one. So when you miss an attack, you can be punished by a quick attack, but hardly, for a strong one. Tilts were made better also. And recoveries were boosted to give a more interesting aerial edgeguarding. I sincerely miss wave dash.. cause it felt great. But for the price o more characters, stages, items, final smashes, music and BALANCE, I am grateful and happy.

 

[ravenhats]

I agree with BengalsRZ I like to add that I think a lot melee players have good points about the dash. I should also mention that I think adding more characters (even some broken ones) make the game balance better.

 

[Zankoku]

It hasn't been proved already that Brawl is much more balanced than Melee?

No, it hasn't.

Every character seem to have lots of potential.

I hate it when people throw the "potential" thing around. It's like saying Bowser was only low tier because his "potential" was never fully explored.

MK and Snake got all the hype because of their style an personality, and because they seem very capable.

Actually, they got all the hype because they had solid attributes and were winning tournaments. They still are.

But things are getting more balanced overtime. I've seen fearsome opponents with any character.

Uh.... huh. Do they go to tournaments, or are you just talking about your friends you play with all the time?

And, look at the new poll for favorite characters. There are no longer that much Snakes, MKs, etc. That is the success of game well balanced.

lol, what? The same poll where Ike and Sonic were once among the most popular characters? Popularity does not equal balance.

Off course, perfect balance is impossible, but what Sakurai accomplished is marvelous. What makes Brawl so superior to Melee is balance. Melee's balance is horrible. And is now more evident as you see Brawl.

I disagree.

Many moves in Melee were useless ( A moves and B moves), and they were tuned up in Brawl so they can be used or abused. You've got to be blind if you don't want to see this.

Sheik's chain is worse as an offensive move. Falcon's Raptor Boost only does a mediocre launch that doesn't lead into anything. Ganondorf's Dark Dive can't actually KO people any more. Please define this "tuned up" for me, because it doesn't seem all that universal.

Lag-less attacks (Metaknight) are not supremacy in Brawl. Brawl has a good risk-price trade in many attacks. Kirby's ground hammer, Lucas U smash, Luigi's Up B, are laggy attacks, but as deadly as well.

Snake's utilt is only a little weaker than Lucas' usmash, but it's faster and has more range. Guess which one sees more use.

Also, in brawl is not so easy to punish a low lag move with a powerful one. So when you miss an attack, you can be punished by a quick attack, but hardly, for a strong one.

In other words, it's good to have fast, strong attacks, like Snake's ftilt/utilt or Meta Knight's dsmash/upB or G&W's dsmash/fsmash or...?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

God so much anger of a game...god. I wish everyone was less serious about this game and played it to have fun. Thats why I play a game...to have fun, not to Insult people based on typos in a forum cause I have nothing better to do in my life then insult people's typos when I could be out in the world or playing brawl with friends...or Melee I don't care.

the gamefaqs brawl board is 100x worse with flaming among other things lol. oh but when it comes to competitiveness people are going to be serious about things. their not obligated to play it seriously but some do and some don't. i try not to insult people if i think their wrong about something but sometimes typing can come out that way if the right words aren't used.

 

[ravenhats]

Yeah I wish people would just be nice to each other and talk about things that matter. Flaming is so childish, it's like name calling someone because you can't come up with anything else to say.

 

[Yuna]

It hasn't been proved already that Brawl is much more balanced than Melee?
Amazingly, even when it has a lot more characters. Every character seem to have lots of potential.

Only they don't. There are plenty of characters a lot of people can agree on have very little potential, especially when compared to the Top Echelon. They can be good, they just can't be amazing.

IAnd, look at the new poll for favorite characters. There are no longer that much Snakes, MKs, etc. That is the success of game well balanced. Off course, perfect balance is impossible, but what Sakurai accomplished is marvelous.

I'm sorry, what? A poll for most popular characters shows that the game is balanced? How? It's not even a poll about what characters people think are the best (and one of those would be flawed unless voted forth only by the most knowledgable SBR:ers).

IWhat makes Brawl so superior to Melee is balance. Melee's balance is horrible. And is now more evident as you see Brawl.

How is it evident? Give us real aargument instead of generalizations thar are, for the most part, not even true. And how was Melee's balance so "horrible"? Everyone down to Lower Tier had a pretty decent chance of winning. That's pretty good, actually.

I Many moves in Melee were useless ( A moves and B moves), and they were tuned up in Brawl so they can be used or abused. You've got to be blind if you don't want to see this.

So are many moves in Brawl. It doesn't matter, what matters are what moves aren't useless and how good they are. Less useless moves =/= More game balance. Please look up the term "Game balance":

I Heavy characters are now competitive. They hit hard and KO easier. And are harder to kill.

Like Bowser, Ganondorf and Ike, all low tiers (except maybe Ike)? King DeDeDe is also not really that good without his chaingrab (which I doubt Sakurai sat down and intentionally programmed).

And also, ever played Zelda? She's pretty fast, hits really hard, can KO very easily and... is pretty easy to kill! Generalizations are bad! Especially if they're untrue!

IIn melee fast characters were usually good.

Peach, Samus and Ganondorf disagree (they're considered medium-slow to slow). Pichu and Young Link also disagree. Two of the game's fastest characters, yet pretty bad.

IIn Brawl even when fast characters lack of killing moves , they still have something they can use ( MK up B, Sheik down smash, Marth Up B), and heavy characters have some fast attacks to use as well (DDD neutral A, Snake neutral A). Both power and speedy fightstyles can be deadly. Brawl excels over Melee by far with this too. Could you deny it?

This is a change in how the game works. It doesn't automatically ensure balance.

I Lag-less attacks (Metaknight) are not supremacy in Brawl. Brawl has a good risk-price trade in many attacks. Kirby's ground hammer, Lucas U smash, Luigi's Up B, are laggy attacks, but as deadly as well.

As opposed to a lot of moves in Melee that were slower and very powerful, like, say, any of Ganondorf's smashes?

IAlso, in brawl is not so easy to punish a low lag move with a powerful one.

It never was.

[So when you miss an attack, you can be punished by a quick attack, but hardly, for a strong one.

Very few Melee attacks were both fast and easy to punish with and powerful. And there are still suck attacks in Brawl.

ITilts were made better also. And recoveries were boosted to give a more interesting aerial edgeguarding. I sincerely miss wave dash.. cause it felt great. But for the price o more characters, stages, items, final smashes, music and BALANCE, I am grateful and happy.

Bla, bla, bla. Basically, you're saying the game was changed. Things changed. In no way have you described how things changed in a way that makes the game more balanced.

Game balance is not about how much fun a game is, how many moves are usable or how moves work. Game balance is about how well every single character in the game can fare against everyone else in the game.

 

[Fawriel]

Thank you Fawriel finally someone who wants to talk to me about this instead of tell me what I'm spelling wrong. You have very good points.

You are welcome.

I think I'm really overreacting here, and it's a really pointless debate anyway. Mostly the reason I made such a big deal out of it is because I often see words with french spellings misspelled and sometimes I think it's ignorance caused by heavy stereotyping of the French that is a reason for this. Many people I know have this type of attitude towards France, over periods of time things like this just start piling up until it explodes on an innocent person, in this case you.


My apologies to the whole thread for being off topic.

*hands Witchking an aspirin*
There's plenty to go around!
*peers into the package*
...okay, maybe not.

I would say that yes, it is more balanced than Melee, but not by much. There are really only two characters who are far ahead of everyone else because they are flat out broken in every way (Snake and MK of course) but the gap between everyone else is a lot closer than it was in Melee.

It would be nice if people could agree on something like this.
God, it's not even funny how easy it would be to make the game more balanced. Give Snake more normal-sized hitboxes and decrease his weight somewhat, take away MK's KO power to make him the pure combo character he SHOULD be, make Samus' missiles KO, let Yoshi's dsmash KO again, give Ganondorf and Link extra recovery and KO power, give Snake a fast running jump again along with a Raptor Boost that actually has a use... the differences would barely be noticeable anymore! *headdesks*

[rock]

Thanks, Ankoku. I was about to give up there.

 

[ravenhats]

Well maybe we just need to wait till people get use to brawl to find all the things that got improved or broken. By the next game though I'm sure that these problems will be at least somewhat fixed, Nintendo is a smart company and knows what to fix(most of the time at least).

 

[IrArby]

Witchking: no worries, spelling of "vwah lah" or viola dutifully noted, feel free to correct me again at another time.

ravenhats: specific disagreements: Falco and Shiek don't dash dance and what hurt Fox, Shiek, Falco, etc more was the new lack of JC shines, L canceling, Moon Gravity(the physics engine in general), lack of hitstun, and many other things that are universal nerfs to all characters coming from Melee to Brawl. Trust me ATs like WDing would be welcomed in Brawl to balance it out. As it stands there are no means of improving the gameplay of characters who are naturally disadvantaged using the intended attacks/defenses.

Krooton: Last post page 123

OMGSTOPFLAMINGSOMUCHHATEYOUR IQRLOWLIKE70BRAWLNOTBALANCED*****MOAN*****MOANHAVEFUNGAMENOCALLINGIDIOTICYOUARETYPOWAVEDASHINGIMPYFISHSNAKEMIDTIERFLAMEIBEATDKBOWSERSOGOODIDIOTYOUSAIDIAMCRAZYLOUDANDMEEEEEAAAAAANNNNNNNN!!!!!!!

. . . the very next post . . .

I'm done with arguments I want to have fun and friends on smash boards. Not enemies.

ok . . . that was fair. So were having fun now.

(I am)

 

[MorpheusVGX]

No, it hasn't.

I hate it when people throw the "potential" thing around. It's like saying Bowser was only low tier because his "potential" was never fully explored.

Actually, they got all the hype because they had solid attributes and were winning tournaments. They still are.

Uh.... huh. Do they go to tournaments, or are you just talking about your friends you play with all the time?

lol, what? The same poll where Ike and Sonic were once among the most popular characters? Popularity does not equal balance.

I disagree.

Sheik's chain is worse as an offensive move. Falcon's Raptor Boost only does a mediocre launch that doesn't lead into anything. Ganondorf's Dark Dive can't actually KO people any more. Please define this "tuned up" for me, because it doesn't seem all that universal.

Snake's utilt is only a little weaker than Lucas' usmash, but it's faster and has more range. Guess which one sees more use.

In other words, it's good to have fast, strong attacks, like Snake's ftilt/utilt or Meta Knight's dsmash/upB or G&W's dsmash/fsmash or...?

Ok.. let's go one by one.
1. when I talk about potential I am talking about what certain players accomplish with a given character. So there you see that character has potential.

2. I am talking about good players I see on youtube. I don't care if they play at tournaments or not. I care about the skill they demonstrate in any match I see. I've seen friendly matches displaying more skill than tournament ones. I guess there are skilled players that cannot handle the pressure of tournaments and their prowess decreases.

3. Yes, popularity is not balance. But a balanced popularity balances powers too. As many players explore a character potential, they learn tactics, strategies (playstyles) and advanced techniques from each other and they all improve greatly.

4. If let's say.. Snake has a short ranged fast and strong attack it is to compensate for something else he lacks off ( movement speed ).

Honestly. I find it hard to believe that you say that Melee is more balanced. Because as I said before. Balance in Melee is horrible. Sheik, Fox, Marth, Peach vs Kirby, Ness, Pichu, Bowser, Mewtwo. Those are utterly flaws in game balance. I think you are just a Brawl hater and a rebel. Also, as a personal opinion, sore losers often say Snake and Metaknight are broken, etc. But I honestly don't see anything broken in them. I see they have disadvantages as any other character. And I don't seem powerless at all using my characters (Kirby, Lucas, Pit) against them. I couldn't say the same with Melee when using Ness against Sheik.. ..

 

[ravenhats]

That is true their are other reason strong reasons why fox and others mentioned are weaker. Their is way improving any game play but this I'm sure if very obvious... practice, practice, practice. With practice I believe any character can be strong, but I understand that what one practices (the character, game, stage etc...) is also important. That is why I think this debate is such a important one for many people to have.

 

[Yuna]

Honestly. I find it hard to believe that you say that Melee is more balanced. Because as I said before. Balance in Melee is horrible. Sheik, Fox, Marth, Peach vs Kirby, Ness, Pichu, Bowser, Mewtwo. Those are utterly flaws in game balance.

Funny, Mewtwo could hold up pretty well against the Space Animals. And quite possibly Peach (not too sure on this one).

Also, try winning as Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Yoshi or Samus against the Top Echelon of characters. In most games, the Bottom Tiers have pretty bad matchups against the Top Tiers. Melee is no exception and neither is Brawl.

I think you are just a Brawl hater and a rebel. Also, as a personal opinion, sore losers often say Snake and Metaknight are broken, etc. But I honestly don't see anything broken in them. I see they have disadvantages as any other character. And I don't seem powerless at all using my characters (Kirby, Lucas, Pit) against them. I couldn't say the same with Melee when using Ness against Sheik.. ..

Maybe because Kirby, Lucas and Pit (Pit and Lucas in particular) are friggin' good characters while Sheik was Top 3 and Ness Bottom Tierish?

And since when did the Tops and Highs of Melee not have disadvantages like any other character? They just have a lot of good stuff as well.

Also, why did you not reply to my previous post, which was perfectly civil?

 

[Samochan]

If let's say.. Snake has a short ranged fast and strong attack it is to compensate for something else he lacks off ( movement speed )

Snake really lacks in movement speed doesn't he?

Dash attack, snakedashing... he can control the field with his projectiles...

I mean, who ever thought about moving trough the whole stage with simple attack as opposed to running without attacking at the same time, or simply controlling the whole stage with projectiles?

>_>

And snake's attack range is not short, it's humongous. Snake doesn't have a weakness expect easy to intercept recovery, which is useless if they actually know how to recover. His ridiculous attacks do not compensate for any of his weakness since he lacks them.

Trying to imagine things different than they actually are is not helping, snake's range or other attributes don't get any worse on the real thing.

 

[Fawriel]

Honestly. I find it hard to believe that you say that Melee is more balanced. Because as I said before. Balance in Melee is horrible. Sheik, Fox, Marth, Peach vs Kirby, Ness, Pichu, Bowser, Mewtwo. Those are utterly flaws in game balance. I think you are just a Brawl hater and a rebel. Also, as a personal opinion, sore losers often say Snake and Metaknight are broken, etc. But I honestly don't see anything broken in them. I see they have disadvantages as any other character. And I don't seem powerless at all using my characters (Kirby, Lucas, Pit) against them. I couldn't say the same with Melee when using Ness against Sheik.. ..

Honest question:
Where did you get your information from? I read about the game and watched games played by pros who manage to play a character to pretty much their maximum potential, and what I see is that Snake:
-is extremely heavy, with a great recovery.
-has amazing range with relatively fast attacks.
-has absurd damage to his moves, almost all of which KO at quite early %s.
-has projectiles all over the place.

I look at Metaknight and I see a character who
-is small, while having huge range along with absurd priority.
-has, what, one move that doesn't come out instantly?
-consequently DOES NOT LEAVE HIMSELF OPEN TO ANY ATTACKS AT ANY POINT IF HE DOESN'T ACT RECKLESS.
-is not only exceedingly good at racking up damage, but also has a bunch of attacks that KO better, faster and with more range than many other characters who don't possess any of his other strengths.

What do you see?

 

[gantrain05]

Snake's utilt is only a little weaker than Lucas' usmash, but it's faster and has more range. Guess which one sees more use.

huh? i know u didnt just say snakes Utilt outranges Lucas' Usmash because it simply doesn't even come close, lucas is half as tall as snake and his Usmash still reaches higher than the top point of snakes Utilt.

 

[JrdnS]

huh? i know u didnt just say snakes Utilt outranges Lucas' Usmash because it simply doesn't even come close, lucas is half as tall as snake and his Usmash still reaches higher than the top point of snakes Utilt.

hes talking about the distance side to side not above. snakes utilt has a humongous invisible hitbox in front of him.

 

[Pink Reaper]

huh? i know u didnt just say snakes Utilt outranges Lucas' Usmash because it simply doesn't even come close, lucas is half as tall as snake and his Usmash still reaches higher than the top point of snakes Utilt.

Disjointed hitboxes. Snake has them.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Only they don't. There are plenty of characters a lot of people can agree on have very little potential, especially when compared to the Top Echelon. They can be good, they just can't be amazing.


I'm sorry, what? A poll for most popular characters shows that the game is balanced? How? It's not even a poll about what characters people think are the best (and one of those would be flawed unless voted forth only by the most knowledgable SBR:ers).


How is it evident? Give us real aargument instead of generalizations thar are, for the most part, not even true. And how was Melee's balance so "horrible"? Everyone down to Lower Tier had a pretty decent chance of winning. That's pretty good, actually.


So are many moves in Brawl. It doesn't matter, what matters are what moves aren't useless and how good they are. Less useless moves =/= More game balance. Please look up the term "Game balance":


Like Bowser, Ganondorf and Ike, all low tiers (except maybe Ike)? King DeDeDe is also not really that good without his chaingrab (which I doubt Sakurai sat down and intentionally programmed).

And also, ever played Zelda? She's pretty fast, hits really hard, can KO very easily and... is pretty easy to kill! Generalizations are bad! Especially if they're untrue!


Peach, Samus and Ganondorf disagree (they're considered medium-slow to slow). Pichu and Young Link also disagree. Two of the game's fastest characters, yet pretty bad.


This is a change in how the game works. It doesn't automatically ensure balance.


As opposed to a lot of moves in Melee that were slower and very powerful, like, say, any of Ganondorf's smashes?


It never was.


Very few Melee attacks were both fast and easy to punish with and powerful. And there are still suck attacks in Brawl.


Bla, bla, bla. Basically, you're saying the game was changed. Things changed. In no way have you described how things changed in a way that makes the game more balanced.

Game balance is not about how much fun a game is, how many moves are usable or how moves work. Game balance is about how well every single character in the game can fare against everyone else in the game.

What da **** with bla bla bla.. Don't you have a little respect? That's why I always end flaming you. Could you learn better manners? Have I messed up with you? Are you offended by the things I say? Gosh..

I know what Game Balance is.. I am a student of Game Development as a career. Useless moves in a game hurt game balance, because you will never use them and you will use others instead. It takes away arsenal from a character, so it is more predictable.

And yess Yuna.. the game changed. But as far as it seems, for the better. The balance between power, speed, lag, risk, reward is better in Brawl.

I want to do something interesting for this community and that is to make a thread showing the best player I've seen with every character showing lots of potential. A series of youtube links . I know that in Melee you could do the same, but.. no one cares about Melee anymore bua ja jaja

As sad as it sounds to you.. no one is getting back to Melee.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Snake really lacks in movement speed doesn't he?

Dash attack, snakedashing... he can control the field with his projectiles...

I mean, who ever thought about moving trough the whole stage with simple attack as opposed to running without attacking at the same time, or simply controlling the whole stage with projectiles?

>_>

And snake's attack range is not short, it's humongous. Snake doesn't have a weakness expect easy to intercept recovery, which is useless if they actually know how to recover. His ridiculous attacks do not compensate for any of his weakness since he lacks them.

Trying to imagine things different than they actually are is not helping, snake's range or other attributes don't get any worse on the real thing.

I was talking about neutral A. It is not THAT ranged ... It is for close combat.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Yeah I wish people would just be nice to each other and talk about things that matter. Flaming is so childish, it's like name calling someone because you can't come up with anything else to say.

lol i know..... Flaming hurts . when i first got brawl i found a topic on gamefaqs where someone said the same thing i felt about wolf (that he was a fox clone) i tired to add to it, but what i ment was luigified like clone not pure and i got flamed for 3 responses after that. the third flamed me and tired to explain to me the differences between the flaming

 

[RDK]

What da **** with bla bla bla.. Don't you have a little respect? That's why I always end flaming you. Could you learn better manners? Have I messed up with you? Are you offended by the things I say? Gosh..

I'm offended by the things you say, mostly because they're foolish and have been refuted a million times.

I know what Game Balance is.. I am a student of Game Development as a career. Useless moves in a game hurt game balance, because you will never use them and you will use others instead. It takes away arsenal from a character, so it is more predictable.

You're saying Brawl doesn't have useless moves? Ankoku just listed sever of the many useless moves in Brawl. And define "useless". I could say a good majority of the moves in Brawl are useless because they don't lead into combos, or are too weak for their knockback power.

Just because Melee had a lot of useless moves doesn't make it imbalanced. Where the hell did you get your Game Development degree?

And yess Yuna.. the game changed. But as far as it seems, for the better. The balance between power, speed, lag, risk, reward is better in Brawl.

It's really not--especially the balance between risk and reward. Why go on the offensive when I can just sit back, spam camp, and put up the shield whenever directly attacked? Melee was a game of rock paper scissors. Brawl is a game of scissors and rock.

I want to do something interesting for this community and that is to make a thread showing the best player I've seen with every character showing lots of potential. A series of youtube links . I know that in Melee you could do the same, but.. no one cares about Melee anymore bua ja jaja

The amount of players that do well with low-tier characters is negligible when it comes to tournament results. You don't see people placing with Captain Falcon or Ganondorf.

As sad as it sounds to you.. no one is getting back to Melee.

You're joking, right? The Melee tournament in GA had over 100 people in attendance.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Honest question:
Where did you get your information from? I read about the game and watched games played by pros who manage to play a character to pretty much their maximum potential, and what I see is that Snake:
-is extremely heavy, with a great recovery.
-has amazing range with relatively fast attacks.
-has absurd damage to his moves, almost all of which KO at quite early %s.
-has projectiles all over the place.

I look at Metaknight and I see a character who
-is small, while having huge range along with absurd priority.
-has, what, one move that doesn't come out instantly?
-consequently DOES NOT LEAVE HIMSELF OPEN TO ANY ATTACKS AT ANY POINT IF HE DOESN'T ACT RECKLESS.
-is not only exceedingly good at racking up damage, but also has a bunch of attacks that KO better, faster and with more range than many other characters who don't possess any of his other strengths.

What do you see?

I've played the game for several hours (I don't own a wii or the game yet).. but .. more than that... I've watched a lot of youtube battles and studied them. As I don't have the game, I take more time watching battles than actually playing.

About snake:

- He has slow movement.
- His fast strong attack are not that ranged .
- None of his B moves are deadly to me. I can see all that bombs he throws, and can avoid them with no great effort.
- He can be abused when trying to get to the edge.

About metaknight:

- His range is a bit short.
- He lacks power.
- He is lightweight.
- I don't thing his sword has insane priority. Well timed medium range attacks can do him.
- His B moves are good but not cheap. There are ways to punish him.

 

[Mr.C]

MorpheusVGX is the dumbest motha ****a I've ever seen.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

As sad as it sounds to you.. no one is getting back to Melee.

Take a look here, bud.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174894

I think Melee has plenty of life left in it. People from all over the country and even OUT of the country attended this Melee shindig in GA. It was also fairly recent.

Oh, and you're a game designer? Wow. Please tell me, O great designer of (flash) games, what you think of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-ZTIjutk00

Look carefully at :15 through :19. Snake's n-air manages to connect with Metaknight FROM ABOVE THE STAGE. This wasn't the cannon being primed, either. This was a direct hit from an n-air that interrupted Metaknight in the middle of his taunt. If that's a sign of balance or perfection, then please explain why. Or, better yet, give me a thorough explanation as to why that phenomenon even occurred. I wanna see what you pull out of your ***.

Troll softer next time, you prick. Also learn to read.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Yuna]

Disjointed hitboxes. Snake has them.

Only he shouldn't because he's just using his body. It's just absurd priority. The hitbox shouldn't be disjointed. Heck, a hitbox is only disjointed if the "thing" used to attack is not part of the attacker. Otherwise, it's just priority... absurd such in Snake's case.

Also, it's not just that the priority is absurd, it's that the invisible hitboxes are absurd. Look at Snake's F-tilt and tell me it should logically hit that way.

What da **** with bla bla bla.. Don't you have a little respect? That's why I always end flaming you. Could you learn better manners? Have I messed up with you? Are you offended by the things I say? Gosh..

I gave you one single "Bla bla bla" because you kept belting out misguided notions and you go ape**** mad on me and claim I have no respect?

I know what Game Balance is.. I am a student of Game Development as a career.

Then how come half of the stuff you mentioned do not have anything to do with game balance? Or at least do not automatically effect game balance? "There are more useful moves in the game". Yes, and? Snake's moves are still way, way, way better than Yoshi's. How is that balance?

Useless moves in a game hurt game balance, because you will never use them and you will use others instead. It takes away arsenal from a character, so it is more predictable.

Doesn't matter if the rest of the moves are versatile and good enough. Besides, Brawl is still crawling of useless moves and so are every single friggin' fighting game in existence. Melee was no exception and neither is Brawl.

Heck, a lot of the differences you claim there are between Brawl and Melee aren't even real.

And yess Yuna.. the game changed. But as far as it seems, for the better. The balance between power, speed, lag, risk, reward is better in Brawl.

Only, you haven't been able to sufficiently motivate that. All you've said is "The game has changed in this way. Because I say so", yet I can show compelling evidence that it really hasn't.

Also, the balance between power, speed, lag, risk and reward hasn't really changed that much. Sure, it's changed for the characters that were around in Melee, but what about the new ones? Heck, even some of the old ones are still "imblanced" in those regards.

And the game balance we're talking about is still in regards to character vs. character, not speed vs lag vs power vs risk vs reward... of which Snake and Meta-Knight (among others) are glaring exceptions.

I want to do something interesting for this community and that is to make a thread showing the best player I've seen with every character showing lots of potential. A series of youtube links . I know that in Melee you could do the same, but.. no one cares about Melee anymore bua ja jaja

Yes you can. The fact that you just haven't looked hard enough does not change that. Also, not all videos in existence can be found on Youtube.

As sad as it sounds to you.. no one is getting back to Melee.

But at least some of us are educated.

 

[St. Viers]

What da **** with bla bla bla.. Don't you have a little respect? That's why I always end flaming you. Could you learn better manners? Have I messed up with you? Are you offended by the things I say? Gosh..

I know what Game Balance is.. I am a student of Game Development as a career. Useless moves in a game hurt game balance, because you will never use them and you will use others instead. It takes away arsenal from a character, so it is more predictable.

And yess Yuna.. the game changed. But as far as it seems, for the better. The balance between power, speed, lag, risk, reward is better in Brawl.

I want to do something interesting for this community and that is to make a thread showing the best player I've seen with every character showing lots of potential. A series of youtube links . I know that in Melee you could do the same, but.. no one cares about Melee anymore bua ja jaja

As sad as it sounds to you.. no one is getting back to Melee.

He does the "blah blah blah" to both save space from quoting you, while espressing that he doesn't belive you. I just say [stuff] or [snip], but overreacting to that is just plain stupid.

Also, there are plenty of useless moves in brawl--stop tooting your own horn and actually respond to what Yuna's posting.

Also, the balance between speed power and all is not the same.
examples:

Snake:
f-tilt (strongest for it's speed, second hit)
up-tilt (strongest for it's speed-stronger than many upsmashes)
aaa (fast and last hit is strong)
dash attack (fast, strong, and can mortar slide)
G&W:
d-smash
MK:
Up-B strong, fast, and practically unpunishable


yet, not everyone is like that. A sign of unbalance.

 

[Fawriel]

I've played the game for several hours (I don't own a wii or the game yet).. but .. more than that... I watch a lot of youtube battles and studied them.

About snake:

- He has slow movement. It probably wasn't intentional, but, you know that thing where he slides across the whole stage in one movement? No, I don't mean his dash attack. Besides, the slow movement is pretty much completely outweighed by the sheer range his moves and projectiles give him.
- His fast strong attack are not that ranged . Where are those two images when you need them.
- None of his B moves are deadly to me. I can see all that bombs he throws, and can avoid them with no great effort. Even if you do manage to avoid them, projectiles have always served the primary purpose of decreasing the options your opponent has.
- He can be abused when trying to get to the edge. Sometimes.

About metaknight:

- He lacks range.
- He lacks power.
- He is lightweight.
- I don't thing his sword has insane priority. Well timed medium range attacks can do him.
- His B moves are good but not cheap. There are ways to punish him.

Fixed.

I like fluffy things.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Fixed.

I like fluffy things.

<3 you, Fawriel.

Smooth Criminal

 

[MorpheusVGX]

I'm offended by the things you say, mostly because they're foolish and have been refuted a million times.



You're saying Brawl doesn't have useless moves? Ankoku just listed sever of the many useless moves in Brawl. And define "useless". I could say a good majority of the moves in Brawl are useless because they don't lead into combos, or are too weak for their knockback power.

Just because Melee had a lot of useless moves doesn't make it imbalanced. Where the hell did you get your Game Development degree?



It's really not--especially the balance between risk and reward. Why go on the offensive when I can just sit back, spam camp, and put up the shield whenever directly attacked? Melee was a game of rock paper scissors. Brawl is a game of scissors and rock.



The amount of players that do well with low-tier characters is negligible when it comes to tournament results. You don't see people placing with Captain Falcon or Ganondorf.



You're joking, right? The Melee tournament in GA had over 100 people in attendance.

You are not worth my time.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You are not worth my time.

And you are a pathetic troll.

GG.

Smooth Criminal