Brawl+ Lucario

[Greenpoe]

Thoughts?

Lucario is amazing in Brawl+. The hitstun is a fantastic bonus for Lucario. U-tilt is great for combos. Luc's roll is fantastic for spacing. His fair is just great for combos, and Force Palm flame becomes useful as a combo-ender (when they get too far away to hit with an aerial, tilt or grab). Fair Wall of Pain=win.
Does anyone think he has any really bad matchups warranting a buff? His run speed has been increased a little, and his aerials get 50% lag reduction.

ATTN: Brawl+ is still in the beta stages. Each couple of weeks, the beta improves to a new version with more depth/better balance/etc. Unfortunately, the videos below are a few weeks old, so Brawl+'s current beta is a much more fluent game than what you see below.

Lucario
Jim (Lucario) vs. Xeno (Kirby) #1 - Brawlplussery Beta 3
Jim (Lucario) vs. Xeno (Kirby) #2 - Brawlplussery Beta 3
FIYAH (Diddy) vs SAIN (Lucario) - Custom Codeset
Vex Kasrani (Lucario) vs Xzax (Sonic) 1 - Brawlplussery Beta 3
Vex Kasrani (Lucario) vs Xzax (Sonic) 2 - Brawlplussery Beta 3
Xzax(Sonic) v.s Vex(Lucario) 1 - Brawlplussery Beta 3
Xzax(Sonic) v.s Vex(Lucario) 2 - Brawlplussery Beta 3
Xzax(Sonic) v.s Vex(Lucario) 3 - Brawlplussery Beta 3
Xzax(Sonic) v.s Vex(Lucario) 4 - Brawlplussery Beta 3
Xzax(Sonic) v.s Vex(Lucario) 5 - Brawlplussery Beta 3
Xzax(Sonic) v.s Vex(Lucario) 6 - Brawlplussery Beta 3
Xzax(Sonic) v.s Vex(Lucario) 7 - Brawlplussery Beta 3
Xzax(Sonic) v.s Vex(Lucario) 8 - Brawlplussery Beta 3
Xzax(Sonic) v.s Vex(Lucario) 9 - Brawlplussery Beta 3
Xzax(Sonic) v.s Vex(Lucario) 10 - Brawlplussery Beta 3

Don't know what Brawl+ is? Check these links out:
What is Brawl+? The FAQ
How to get Brawl+ on your Wii
Brawl Plusery - The Standardized Competitive Brawl codeset
More Brawl+ vids
Brawl+ IRC chat

 

[Kitamerby]

His wavedash is horrible, isn't it? Also, Lucario's moves are in general low lag already, so L-canceling doesn't help him all that much... I know he's the only character who can still auto-sweetspot the ledge, but his recovery I'd imagine would be pretty bad with Melee airdodges due to him now having no recovery options against the likes of MK or Marf aside a full sphere. ._.


Also, people can make kill combos, which is bad for Lucario.


I've heard that Lucario is pretty suck in Brawl+.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Why hack the game anyway? If you dislike it that bad, go back to Melee, since many of the elements of Brawl+ are elements from Melee.... or just straight up make your own game, instead of leeching off of the work of the huge team of workers that gave us Brawl..... The only reason I'm so biased against it is because a friend tried it and their Wii got ***** for life. Not to mention how strange the game play felt to me compared to the actual game.

 

[shanus]

Both of you are very ill-informed of Brawl+ offers!

First, there is no wavedashing. We use Brawl Air Dodge system.

Second, there aren't many components from melee at all. We widened the dash dance window, introduced dash cancelling (cancelling a dash from a crouch), and removed autosweetspot ledges to enhance edgeguard game (Lucario still autosweetspots though).

So what is the goal of Brawl+? Enhanced gameplay and better balance. Characters like MK have gotten nerfs (he dies at lower percentages now, whorenado cannot rise much at all, downsmash is slowed). Characters like ganon, bowser, captain falcon and more have all seen HUGE benefits as well. For instance, every characters Short Hop, Full Hop, FastFall, DownGrav & NormGrav are all optimized per character to best fit their playstyle and increase their potential.

There are some combos, but none are OP. The game is worlds more fun and the tier disparity is much less than that in normal Brawl. We have an official back room here on smashboards (its a hidden forum in part of the smash workshop) where we have notable players focus on tweaking exact balance changes to improve gameplay.

To get on topic, Lucario is very very good in Brawl+. I recommend you watch the vids or try the game out or read up more on Brawl+ before judging it. Its very different than what you think, it is not Melee 2.0.

P.S.
Also, how your friend broke their wii I don't know Da-D-Mon. The current twilight hack has no known methods of causing bricked wii's meaning your friend must have been using additional applications which are not supported or endorsed by the B+ community.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I actually think Lucario is worse on Brawl+.
Fox, on the other hand...

 

[|RK|]

I hear that Lucario is amazing in Brawl+. His moves aren't low lag, some actually have quite a bit. So an aerial lag reduction is pretty sweet. L-Canceling helps his laggy ground moves, dash cancelling allows for his wonderfully spammable F-Tilt, Wall of Pains are always nice, keeping auto-sweetspotting (I assume it's based on his Aura?) is sexy, and if Force Palm Flame is considered useful by people other than me, I'm good.

EDIT: AND faster running speed? Sweet. Hey, could you make his Aura cap at 200%? Lol, jk, that'd make him broken beyond reason.


As for Kirby, I think he should be able to Wall Jump. Like Ninja Kirby. But that's off-topic, just wanted to note that whilest one of the creative minds of Brawl+ is posting here.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

I still have yet to see how Lucci could be anything but awful in Brawl+. Good thing I don't really care about it.

 

[nightSN]

Why hack the game anyway? If you dislike it that bad, go back to Melee, since many of the elements of Brawl+ are elements from Melee.... or just straight up make your own game, instead of leeching off of the work of the huge team of workers that gave us Brawl..... The only reason I'm so biased against it is because a friend tried it and their Wii got ***** for life. Not to mention how strange the game play felt to me compared to the actual game.

is all those brawl+ haters still saying go back to melee? god, like brawl plus and melee are still different. the only thing thats from melee is dashdance. lcancel and no sweetspot. they still have brawl airdodge so no wavedash -.-

 

[|RK|]

Except for Lucario, whom can still sweetspot.

 

[tedward2000]

Greenpoe.
Whate version of Brawl+ are you talking about. There's many versions of it, and lucario changes in each one.

Oh wait, brawlplussery. I can read.
Yea, lucario's wavedash is, interesting. It makes a triangle movement, but I've seen it chained into a fast action grab or up-tilt. Which fyi, Lucario's up-tilt is godly, it chains into almost anything. Thats pretty darn sexy.

Now wavedance aside, just watch a few videos, and look at Nair. See how fast it is? Yea, its good too.

Personally I love the changing settings for brawlplussery. I've dealt with earily brawl+, and let me tell you, 17.2% hitstun is insane. And also extremely broken. You get hit once, you lose. It was just gross and trying to be melee. Like for example, with that amount of stun, lucario can easily Fair to Nair chain ppl of the stage and to their death.

Whats going on here is trying to even out the game, to a degree. This works. As shanus said, there's people working on it.

So don't hate it for not being "brawl" or "melee". Its a homebrew to even out the odds, with a little spice.
-t2

 

[|RK|]

Actually, doesn't Brawl+ keep Brawl airdodges? :| Or so the creators have said.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Actually, doesn't Brawl+ keep Brawl airdodges? :| Or so the creators have said.

Well, there are Melee air dodge hacks available, but the "official" Brawl+ does not use Melee air dodge.

 

[Samuelson]

If you want to make Lucario better then make his grab range better and make his jab or dtilt faster (he doesn't have any good GTFO moves). You should also make it so that he doesn't get a debuff of aura when he's ahead in stock

I watched the first video....it was pretty awful Lucario gameplay i'm sorry...Ive played Brawl+ Lucario. He's really good in it but he's not amazing or anything. He's pretty much exactly how he is in Brawl. A good well rounded character that is pretty limited.

 

[Ussi]

I heard Lucario can 0-death people. And since his aura makes him combo even MORE when he gets a lead, i can see that...

 

[Alus]

^^^^^
This

But a lot of chars can resist very well

 

[G-Beast]

brawl+ is for losers... and hardcore melee fanboys

 

[Greenpoe]

First of all, there's a lot of misconceptions about Brawl+. I strongly encourage everyone to try it, and if you have tried it, play the latest Brawl Plusery codeset.

If you want to make Lucario better then make his grab range better and make his jab or dtilt faster (he doesn't have any good GTFO moves). You should also make it so that he doesn't get a debuff of aura when he's ahead in stock

I watched the first video....it was pretty awful Lucario gameplay i'm sorry...Ive played Brawl+ Lucario. He's really good in it but he's not amazing or anything. He's pretty much exactly how he is in Brawl. A good well rounded character that is pretty limited.

The stock aura (1 stock ahead=0.9, 2 stocks aread=0.8, 1 stock behind=1.2, 2 stocks behind=1.4...or something like that) is interesting. On one hand, it appears as anti-competitive as the items in Mario Kart (the worse you get, the more the game helps you), yet, I personally like it. Here's why: If Lucario loses his first stock, his KO ability is ka-put...but he gets a 1.2x Aura bonus! The problem? His aura will be low from his low percent. Now, the more his damage increases, the more this bonus will help (full aura x 1.2=HUGE BONUS, but this would mean you'd be massively behind). On the other hand, let's say Lucario is winning; now he deals massive damage, but because he hits everyone so far, he's got barely any combo-ability (Thankfully, Fair is not aura dependant, but all his other aerials, tilts, specials and smashes are), so the 0.9x Aura is mixed in that it reduces his bonus knockback/damage which could allow for more combos. So, it could be taken out, or just the negative bonus could be removed, or it could be left alone.

 

[Samuelson]

I say take out the negative part and increase his grab range

Maybe make his jab like frame 3-4 instead of frame 6. It would make his OoS options a lot better.

People also don't know the difference between Melee 2.0 and Brawl+ hehe

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Brawl+ is fine in my book. I'd try it out if I got the chance. It's not an attempt at melee, it's just trying to make the game's balance better.

 

[Rikana]

Brawl+ is fine in my book. I'd try it out if I got the chance. It's not an attempt at melee, it's just trying to make the game's balance better.

Thank you good sir. You understand. A lot of people can't seem to accept the fact that Brawl+ is not Melee 2.0. And a lot of people also bash on Brawl+ without ever trying out our latest codeset.

Anyways, @OP. Those are outdated videos. We're trying to get a lot of the youtubers who upload Brawl+ matches to remove the old outdated videos because Brawl+ has changed quite drastically within a month. This way, people get an idea on how the current codeset is like. The game's gotten much better and fluid now.

 

[The_Bear735]

I still have yet to see how Lucario could be anything but awful in Brawl+. Good thing I don't really care about it.

Seriously.

Most of Lucario's move set and strategy is based off of being able to wall and spam moves that can generate high damage, in a very basic sense. In Melee, spam is very hard to get away with, and walling isn't all that important compared to an actual offensive game. Lucario has some good combo moves, but with combos being able to be pulled off on him (sometimes KO combos), his ability to survive and deal huge damage is nerfed. Honestly, I'd say he'd be bottom of mid tier at best. (very best mind you, he's essentially mewtwo in Brawl+)

 

[Aurasmash14]

Im still shocked up to now that people will hack their games at all. I dont agree very well with Brawl+. im not a hater, but im definitely not going to try it. im much more content with the original game.

 

[shanus]

Seriously.

Most of Lucario's move set and strategy is based off of being able to wall and spam moves that can generate high damage, in a very basic sense. In Melee, spam is very hard to get away with, and walling isn't all that important compared to an actual offensive game. Lucario has some good combo moves, but with combos being able to be pulled off on him (sometimes KO combos), his ability to survive and deal huge damage is nerfed. Honestly, I'd say he'd be bottom of mid tier at best. (very best mind you, he's essentially mewtwo in Brawl+)

Have you played Brawl+? To me it seems you haven't and you instantly assume he sucks and doesn't play like he does now. Do you have any idea how well he can link aerials now with momentum from his dash? Do you know how well he can link 5 or more moves together given the appropriate practice?

Offense and defense are both viable options. He actually plays very well, combos very well, and kills well. You should play it before you make a claim as such. Especially if you don't know what most of the balance changes have been.

Lucario is good in Brawl+, but you are all so quick to judge it without even knowing most of what Brawl+ offers. I hope most of you at least read this and understand the fact that we aren't trying to make a game like melee or 64 and have it only based on combos. Our goal is balance with a bit more depth. That is it.

 

[Melomaniacal]

People take Brawl+ too seriously with the whole "OMG go ply mele, *****!"
It's just for fun, and it's a lot of fun.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Have you played Brawl+? To me it seems you haven't and you instantly assume he sucks and doesn't play like he does now. Do you have any idea how well he can link aerials now with momentum from his dash? Do you know how well he can link 5 or more moves together given the appropriate practice?

Offense and defense are both viable options. He actually plays very well, combos very well, and kills well. You should play it before you make a claim as such. Especially if you don't know what most of the balance changes have been.

Lucario is good in Brawl+, but you are all so quick to judge it without even knowing most of what Brawl+ offers. I hope most of you at least read this and understand the fact that we aren't trying to make a game like melee or 64 and have it only based on combos. Our goal is balance with a bit more depth. That is it.

If you went out of the way to increase one character's dash speed, cut the lag on all his aerials, and are still looking for opinions on ways he should be made better, I'd say it's a fair indication.

I've watched some Brawl+ vids and I have yet to see Lucario do anything he doesn't already do in Brawl, aside from getting tossed around a bunch because he's so much worse.

 

[|RK|]

If you went out of the way to increase one character's dash speed, cut the lag on all his aerials, and are still looking for opinions on ways he should be made better, I'd say it's a fair indication.

I've watched some Brawl+ vids and I have yet to see Lucario do anything he doesn't already do in Brawl, aside from getting tossed around a bunch because he's so much worse.

Anyways, @OP. Those are outdated videos. We're trying to get a lot of the youtubers who upload Brawl+ matches to remove the old outdated videos because Brawl+ has changed quite drastically within a month. This way, people get an idea on how the current codeset is like. The game's gotten much better and fluid now.

That answer that Stauffers?

 

[shanus]

If you went out of the way to increase one character's dash speed, cut the lag on all his aerials, and are still looking for opinions on ways he should be made better, I'd say it's a fair indication.

I've watched some Brawl+ vids and I have yet to see Lucario do anything he doesn't already do in Brawl, aside from getting tossed around a bunch because he's so much worse.

Every character had their dash speed increased. Every character had their aerial landing lag on their moves reduced. See, you need to read up on whats going on or give it a chance.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Does anyone think he has any really bad matchups warranting a buff? His run speed has been increased a little, and his aerials get 50% lag reduction.

So this is a universal thing? Cause if it is, I hardly see how it'd make me wrong... I somehow don't think any Lucario would say their aerials need to be less laggy or his dash faster to make him better. I can think of many more characters than not that would benefit more from that.

 

[Samuelson]

lol stauffy

You've never played Brawl+ so i don't know why you're even talking....

Ive played an older version of Brawl+...it's pretty much the same as it is now but it doesn't have faster dash speed or character specific tweaks. Lucario is good in Brawl+ but i wouldn't say he's better....but like i said, i havn't played the newest version yet.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I just got the newest version, and yeah, Lucario is much better than he used to be (in Brawl+). His upair has become way, way better. He can combo extremely well. Not really top tier material, but he's very good. Up throw chain grabs a lot. A lot.

Fox is still the man in Brawl+, IMO.

 

[Rikana]

I just got the newest version, and yeah, Lucario is much better than he used to be (in Brawl+). His upair has become way, way better. He can combo extremely well. Not really top tier material, but he's very good. Up throw chain grabs a lot. A lot.

Fox is still the man in Brawl+, IMO.

Fox is very newb friendly at the moment. He's like Kirby for Smash 64.

Anyways, @OP. Those are outdated videos. We're trying to get a lot of the youtubers who upload Brawl+ matches to remove the old outdated videos because Brawl+ has changed quite drastically within a month. This way, people get an idea on how the current codeset is like. The game's gotten much better and fluid now.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Surely there exist some videos of this amazing Brawl+ Lucario that you keep telling me is totally real.

 

[Samuelson]

All because there aren't videos doesn't mean it's not true. I do have to admit that every Brawl+ Lucario ive seen has been pretty, well, horrible.

 

[The_Bear735]

Have you played Brawl+? To me it seems you haven't and you instantly assume he sucks and doesn't play like he does now. Do you have any idea how well he can link aerials now with momentum from his dash? Do you know how well he can link 5 or more moves together given the appropriate practice?

I stopped reading when you acted like you knew more about using Lucario than I do, even though I place decently offline and you're a dikmin main.

Also, Brawl air dodge kills combos, last time I checked.

edit: also, Lucario doesn't link as well as you claim, his frames are slow enough to DI out of. Granted you can get AA to Fp and Utilt chains a lot more often now, but I'm not seeing anything outside of more viability with Fair. I'd like you to name some of these 5 to 6 combos that Lucario has. I dare you.

 

[Trela]

All because there aren't videos doesn't mean it's not true. I do have to admit that every Brawl+ Lucario ive seen has been pretty, well, horrible.

Trela.

He needs Brawl+.

 

[tedward2000]

I'd like you to name some of these 5 to 6 combos that Lucario has. I dare you.

Done.

1. Grab Pummel > Sh Fair > Fsmash ( low %), then charge your AS at your leisure.
2. Fair > Fair > Nair (land)> follow with a up-tilt ( small tech chase)
3. Uptilt (x3-4)> Fair> Nair.
4. Up-throw (x4) (low %) > any aerial besides Dair (which can still work, just not as well)
5. Jab>jab> FPG> Sh fair> Nair (land)> Grab pummel + Back throw (also known as GTFOutta mai house)

And Don't give me, Some of those work in brawl too! Cause duh, Some brawl chains will work better in Brawlplussery, thats a given. Some wont, also a given.

And, theres a crap ton of bias going on in here. I will say this now, Brawl+ isnt for everyone. Personally I like it, but I live around a huge melee crowd, and brawl isnt liked too much, but brawl+ is excepted a tad.

It is fun. But theres no reason to hold knives to each other, when both sides are not close to equal on terms of experience they are combating.

Try it out. If ya don't like it, cool go back to Brawl. If ya do, cool.
-t2

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

But... those DO work in Brawl...

 

[tedward2000]

But... those DO work in Brawl...

exactly.
Lucario remains pretty much the same in both brawl and brawl+.
Just in brawl+ theres a little difference, but not much else.
-t2

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Whereas the norm is for characters to get a significant boost in what they can do.

 

[tedward2000]

Whereas the norm is for characters to get a significant boost in what they can do.

What brawl+ is doing is supping up characters to met a closer equilibrium.

For example. Lets say you could rate how well a character does by a number between 1 and 10. 10 being the best, 1 being dead baby in the road.

What brawl+ is doing, is boosting (or nerfing) everyone around 5-8 instead of 2-10.
It's evening the odds.

Lucario you could say is generally around 6-7. Brawl+ tips it closer to 7.
Its still in the works too, and will still be in the works for months.
-t2