Brawl+ Lucario

[shanus]

I stopped reading when you acted like you knew more about using Lucario than I do, even though I place decently offline and you're a dikmin main.

Also, Brawl air dodge kills combos, last time I checked.

edit: also, Lucario doesn't link as well as you claim, his frames are slow enough to DI out of. Granted you can get AA to Fp and Utilt chains a lot more often now, but I'm not seeing anything outside of more viability with Fair. I'd like you to name some of these 5 to 6 combos that Lucario has. I dare you.

I don't claim to know more about lucario than you do in vBrawl. What I am claiming is that you have no first hand experience in Brawl+ and call shenanigans without even considering there is increased hitstun in this game. This makes me sad panda.

I'm trying to tell you lucario is just as viable as before if not better, and I have played Brawl+ and you have not (have a lucario main in our crew). Thats why forming instant judgements is pretty bad. Its like saying that Ivysaur was trash in vBrawl, he must be now! But surprise surprise, he is in fact excellent in Brawl+!

All I'm asking from you is to please read up more on Brawl+ before rushing to an opinion. I'd be willing to bet you might enjoy it, too. If not, fine with me!

 

[Drizzt6195]

I think improving his grab range would really be good, he really needs it

 

[Aurasmash14]

Done.

1. Grab Pummel > Sh Fair > Fsmash ( low %), then charge your AS at your leisure.
2. Fair > Fair > Nair (land)> follow with a up-tilt ( small tech chase)
3. Uptilt (x3-4)> Fair> Nair.
4. Up-throw (x4) (low %) > any aerial besides Dair (which can still work, just not as well)
5. Jab>jab> FPG> Sh fair> Nair (land)> Grab pummel + Back throw (also known as GTFOutta mai house)

And Don't give me, Some of those work in brawl too! Cause duh, Some brawl chains will work better in Brawlplussery, thats a given. Some wont, also a given.

And, theres a crap ton of bias going on in here. I will say this now, Brawl+ isnt for everyone. Personally I like it, but I live around a huge melee crowd, and brawl isnt liked too much, but brawl+ is excepted a tad.

It is fun. But theres no reason to hold knives to each other, when both sides are not close to equal on terms of experience they are combating.

Try it out. If ya don't like it, cool go back to Brawl. If ya do, cool.
-t2

Ya live around a large melee crowd ted? I know what its like. except where i live (dont mind the **** i put in my location, im just a fan of resident evil.) Super smash bros is hated by a helluva lot of people. (they tekken.)

 

[Alus]

All I'm asking from you is to please read up more on Brawl+ before rushing to an opinion.

I believe that actually playing the game would be much better.

Anyone that does not understand that Brawl+ gets updated needs to
cut themselves.

Anyone that has said "Brawl+" and "Melee" In the same sentence
that does not involve showing the difference need to go kill
themselves.

Why is it that every other player tries to give a reason not to play it?

what the hell? this is just as dumb as a brawl vs melee argument.

 

[Aurasmash14]

I just got brawl+. its actually good. (though i still hope it wont become a tourney thing coz i totally suck in it XD) Everyone should just stop with this dumb argument. brawl+ and brawl are GAMES people. nothing to fight about. besides Lucario rocks in whatever game he appears in.

 

[|RK|]

Ironically, yes. He's always High Tier in whatever game he's in.

 

[manhunter098]

I just got the newest version, and yeah, Lucario is much better than he used to be (in Brawl+). His upair has become way, way better. He can combo extremely well. Not really top tier material, but he's very good. Up throw chain grabs a lot. A lot.

Fox is still the man in Brawl+, IMO.

I think that title is reserved for Ike (d-air > f-smash).

 

[Milln]

I actually think Lucario is worse on Brawl+.
Fox, on the other hand...

I still have yet to see how Lucci could be anything but awful in Brawl+. Good thing I don't really care about it.

Didn't even read the topic, this was all I was looking for.

Having played 3.2 (the current plussery) with KO, Lucario sucks in Plus. His moves don't have any hitstun to amplify in the first place so all you can do is stuff you can do in normal brawl anyway. The only combos you can get are quickly ended, which isn't what you'd expect from Lucario, and start from bair or uair or something since those are the only moves that generate hitstun. Down throw is an opener only if they DI up. Uthrow is iffy.

It's just bleh, all around. I use Luigi for Plus, when I actually play it. =\

 

[Greenpoe]

Didn't even read the topic, this was all I was looking for.

Haven't played 3.2 (the current plussery) with KO, Lucario sucks in Plus. His moves don't have any hitstun to amplify in the first place so all you can do is stuff you can do in normal brawl anyway. The only combos you can get are quickly ended, which isn't what you'd expect from Lucario, and start from bair or uair or something since those are the only moves that generate hitstun. Down throw is an opener only if they DI up. Uthrow is iffy.

It's just bleh, all around. I use Luigi for Plus, when I actually play it. =\

Try out 3.3, or even the 3.4 beta.

Brawl+ takes some adjusting to get used to it, but once you understand the proper way to play Brawl+ Lucario, he is amazing. Definitely feels like a high tier character to me (except in Brawl+, bottom and low tiers are pretty much gone at the moment). When I play him, I rely a LOT on Fair (just like in vBrawl). If you haven't tried Lucario with momentum, give it a shot: He performs much better with it. With 50% landing lag reduction (ALR), bair becomes much more useful. Oh, and u-smash becomes a much better move than in vBrawl: Quick startup, large hitbox, lingering hitbox, good knockback...but high end-lag. I like comboing into it. Lucario's jab is fine (though if it were 1 frame quicker, that'd be nice), the range looks pretty good for a jab.

What I would want buffed is increased grab speed (since his grab range is terrible, let's make it fast!), or increase hitstun as aura increases.

 

[Milln]

Try out 3.3, or even the 3.4 beta.

Brawl+ takes some adjusting to get used to it, but once you understand the proper way to play Brawl+ Lucario, he is amazing. Definitely feels like a high tier character to me (except in Brawl+, bottom and low tiers are pretty much gone at the moment). When I play him, I rely a LOT on Fair (just like in vBrawl). If you haven't tried Lucario with momentum, give it a shot: He performs much better with it. With 50% landing lag reduction (ALR), bair becomes much more useful. Oh, and u-smash becomes a much better move than in vBrawl: Quick startup, large hitbox, lingering hitbox, good knockback...but high end-lag. I like comboing into it. Lucario's jab is fine (though if it were 1 frame quicker, that'd be nice), the range looks pretty good for a jab.

What I would want buffed is increased grab speed (since his grab range is terrible, let's make it fast!), or increase hitstun as aura increases.

Oh, yeah. I played 3.4, sorry. Got mixed up since I just spent 12 hours in a car ride. Everything I said remains.

You can't just randomly buff a part of a character like that for no almost no reason. Same thing about giving Metaknight more receiving launch and deducting Bowser's percent received. Another thing I don't particularly like.

 

[Greenpoe]

You can't just randomly buff a part of a character like that for no almost no reason. Same thing about giving Metaknight more receiving launch and deducting Bowser's percent received. Another thing I don't particularly like.

What do you mean? The buffs already in for Luc, or the ones I proposed? Lucario has momentum, but everyone in Brawl+ has some, same with aerial landing lag reduction, and increased dash speed. As for my proposed buffs, people mentioned that Lucario needs a better grab. At the moment, there is no code to change hitboxes or grab ranges, just the speed: startup or cooldown.
Lucario does well with hitstun, though. Fair and u-tilt combo much better than in vBrawl. For me, Lucario's dash attack becomes a staple in many combos (long hitbox that comes out quickly).

 

[KarateF22]

Ok, i tried lucario on brawl+. he is pretty good. He has enough time to land and continue an aerial onslaught. his utilt combos into uair, as does his uthrow... on some fatties and the spacies minus fox, he has a killer uthrow chaingrab to medium percents... also works on everyone at lower percents. on fox, it takes him to very high percents, killing percents. just requires good reaction time as DI may require you to dashgrab or reverse grab. his combo game is uber, under the right circumstances he can fair chain to the blast line and simply kill with fair even though it has crap knockback. atm, lucario's combo capability is rivaled only by marth and his wtfpwnage ken combo. id say hes definitely in top three now, due to the fact that he can combo ANYTHING with lowish knockback.

Lucario's chaingrab video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyhn1CGJmjQ

 

[hichez50]

lucario is mid tier in my opinion in brawl+

 

[Greenpoe]

Ok, i tried lucario on brawl+. he is pretty good. He has enough time to land and continue an aerial onslaught. his utilt combos into uair, as does his uthrow... on some fatties and the spacies minus fox, he has a killer uthrow chaingrab to medium percents... also works on everyone at lower percents. on fox, it takes him to very high percents, killing percents. just requires good reaction time as DI may require you to dashgrab or reverse grab. his combo game is uber, under the right circumstances he can fair chain to the blast line and simply kill with fair even though it has crap knockback. atm, lucario's combo capability is rivaled only by marth and his wtfpwnage ken combo. id say hes definitely in top three now, due to the fact that he can combo ANYTHING with lowish knockback.

Lucario's chaingrab video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyhn1CGJmjQ

Wouldn't they be able to get out via jump + DI + aerials?

 

[KarateF22]

Wouldn't they be able to get out via jump + DI + aerials?

Too much hitstun to react via jump or aerials until AT LEAST 80% for most characters when it starts sending them fairly high. For some characters (lol @ fox) it lasts until 120%+. DI alone cannot escape it, they can DI to mess you up, but if you have good reaction time you can still regrab no problem. They can eventually DI to the ledge, but doing so perfectly sets them up for a dair or fair chain, depending on how high their percent is. By the time they get to the ledge you still got in 4-8 grabs anyways. Whats also pretty awesome is that if you do your first jab and they are fairly close, you can then shieldgrab them (you can try to normal grab, but for some reason the grab button will make him do his second punch if you do it too fast... you lose maybe 1-2 frames through the shield grab). Very easy setup for the chaingrab.

 

[Greenpoe]

The CG will probably be removed in later versions. They already took out most of the CG's (Falco's, Bowser's, DDD's, and others except IC's). You can still string a couple forward B's though.

 

[KarateF22]

The CG will probably be removed in later versions. They already took out most of the CG's (Falco's, Bowser's, DDD's, and others except IC's). You can still string a couple forward B's though.

You could only do that by nerfing hitstun... or making it send them up further. If you HAVE to nerf this chain grab do the latter. The hitstun is needed to combo.

 

[Revven]

Lower hitstun for one CG is bad because it will remove a lot of solid combos characters already have, we really can't go below .485 hitstun, any lower and some characters will lose even throw combos like DK's Cargo Uthrow to Uair and such.

We're gonna nerf the CG, simple as that.

 

[Kitamerby]

Why bother? CGs are CGs, and they'll exist no matter what you do. I'm not even sure why you hate them so much. <<

 

[Trela]

Trela wants Brawl+.

Trela needs Brawl+.

Trela will change the way you look at Lucario if he gets Brawl+.

=Trela=

 

[Greenpoe]

Why bother? CGs are CGs, and they'll exist no matter what you do. I'm not even sure why you hate them so much. <<

It takes balance away from the game (Look at DDD in vanilla Brawl, he makes a few characters simply unviable). I remember a someone once said that they played DK vs. DDD in vanilla Brawl, where the DDD agreed not to CG him, and they had a very intense and fun game. Since Lucario's u-throw CG wrecks so many characters like Sheik's f-tilt or Pika's d-throw, removing it is good. Being able to chain 2-3 of the same move is one thing, but more than that gets broken.

 

[Revven]

Why bother? CGs are CGs, and they'll exist no matter what you do. I'm not even sure why you hate them so much. <<

Wrong lawl. DDD's CG and Falco's CG are both gone because of hitstun, we didn't even actually INTEND that to happen (even if it didn't, they would be removed anyway by other means). If you don't understand why CGs are hated so much, then, I don't even think I should explain why they are. I bet you love playing against DDD in regular Brawl, right? He's just so much fun to play against, man, what a character. Oh and then we have Pikachu's new CG on Falco, wow, doesn't that look skillful? Not really.

CGs take what's skill in the game and throws it into the wind. The ICers CGs require actual practice but something like DDD's or Falco's? No practice at all, none required, zip, zero. It pushes the game down to "who can grab first" or "who can avoid getting grabbed" and moves it back down to a campy game. Brawl+ isn't a campy game, therefore, CGs shouldn't exist unless they take some amount of skill to pull off/aren't extremely ridiculous like DDD's CG in regular Brawl.

Lucario's CG while can be DI'd, is quite ridiculous, especially on fastfallers. I haven't experienced the CG myself yet nor do I use Lucario but, I've seen videos of it, and all the Lucario kept trying to do was grab, grab, and grab until they could start the CG, which can last up to really high percents (not sure how high, probably 150% though... maybe higher). I think that's a bit ridiculous, all Lucario has to do is follow your DI and regrab, and DI is really easily seen so I don't see how this would require much skill to do at all. No, the CG is stupid and needs to go because of the amount of % you can get them up to.

However, it doesn't mean his throw will be useless, it won't have RIDICULOUS high base knockback, but, it should be enough so he can't CG with it and can still use it to combo from.

/rant

 

[KarateF22]

It takes balance away from the game (Look at DDD in vanilla Brawl, he makes a few characters simply unviable). I remember a someone once said that they played DK vs. DDD in vanilla Brawl, where the DDD agreed not to CG him, and they had a very intense and fun game. Since Lucario's u-throw CG wrecks so many characters like Sheik's f-tilt or Pika's d-throw, removing it is good. Being able to chain 2-3 of the same move is one thing, but more than that gets broken.

Just to point out you cannot truly remove this chaingrab... as its too easy to link into it. If you remove uthrow to uthrow, i simply have to insert a fair or utilt... or even uair in between so its now uthrow uair/utilt/fair uthrow. You cannot trully fix it without changing Lucario's entire playstyle... which is not the aim of brawl+, if i recall. You can actually fair chain into a uthrow and more fairs.... into a uthrow. It really cannot be fixxed without making lucario a character that doesnt combo... thus nerfing his entire game. His low knockback uthrow is VITAL to his followup combos. even when not turned into a chaingrab it is used to start 50% of our combos in brawl+. Its low knockback is a unique part of our game both in vbrawl and brawl+. Lastly, all three SSB games had chain grabs. taking them away is essentially taking away a core part of the game.

Also... proper DI limits lucario or 4 or 5 uthrows, sometimes less. DI towards the ledge is an easy and reliable way to escape it, albeit it lets lucario combo you with fair. but in the end you escape the uthrow chain.

 

[Greenpoe]

Just to point out you cannot truly remove this chaingrab... as its too easy to link into it. If you remove uthrow to uthrow, i simply have to insert a fair or utilt... or even uair in between so its now uthrow uair/utilt/fair uthrow. You cannot trully fix it without changing Lucario's entire playstyle... which is not the aim of brawl+, if i recall. You can actually fair chain into a uthrow and more fairs.... into a uthrow. It really cannot be fixxed without making lucario a character that doesnt combo... thus nerfing his entire game. His low knockback uthrow is VITAL to his followup combos. even when not turned into a chaingrab it is used to start 50% of our combos in brawl+. Its low knockback is a unique part of our game both in vbrawl and brawl+. Lastly, all three SSB games had chain grabs. taking them away is essentially taking away a core part of the game.

Also... proper DI limits lucario or 4 or 5 uthrows, sometimes less. DI towards the ledge is an easy and reliable way to escape it, albeit it lets lucario combo you with fair. but in the end you escape the uthrow chain.

Wait, half your game is based on u-throw? That's a lot of grabbing! I'll have to play more defensively next time.

 

[KarateF22]

Wait, half your game is based on u-throw? That's a lot of grabbing! I'll have to play more defensively next time.

...no its just that that is how 50% of Brawl+ lucario's reliable combos are started... low knockback + high hitstun upthrow lets us position ourselves for a vicious aerial assault. The other 50% consists of opponent eating a utilt, or being stupid and getting faired.... or other general stupidity. Hold on, ill get you a video of a Lucario combo on some character in a day or so. Just need to show a couple good ones to make my point.

 

[Greenpoe]

Lucario got a buff: In the 4.0 beta set (Check IRC chat for details, gamesurge.net/chat/brawlplus), his down B is twice as fast after the counter frames, so now it's like Marth's.

 

[KarateF22]

Lucario got a buff: In the 4.0 beta set (Check IRC chat for details, gamesurge.net/chat/brawlplus), his down B is twice as fast after the counter frames, so now it's like Marth's.

Still doesnt help it much. The main problem is our counter can be shielded (and typically perfect shielded when shielded). If it had a stun effect on those who hit us (kinda like zss blaster) itd be a bit better. Also im too lazy to get a combo vid up atm... ill do it later lol.

 

[Kitamerby]

Lucario got a buff: In the 4.0 beta set (Check IRC chat for details, gamesurge.net/chat/brawlplus), his down B is twice as fast after the counter frames, so now it's like Marth's.

Twice as fast lag-wise on miss, or do you mean it'll actually hit someone who activates it now?

 

[Greenpoe]

The invincibility/counter frames are the same length as before, but the vunerability frames after that have been cut in half. I'm not sure if the sucessful counter frames have been changed or not, but if you know whether or not to reverse it, it is a much more viable move now. Since Brawl+ has a smaller powershield window (2 frames) and more shieldstun, I haven't been punished with a successful counter yet.

 

[Dark Sonic]

New buffs will also probably be put in place to make up for the removal of his CG. Any suggestions for what moves to buff to make Lucario better would be greatly appreciated.

Things we can currently do with codes:
Lower the startup or windown lag of any attack
Change the launch angle of any attack
Change the base knockback of any attack (changes hitstun proportionally)
Changes the scaling knockback of any attack (how much farther it sends at higher percentages than lower percentages)
Change the damage done by any attack.
Change character weight, fall speed, dash speed, full jump height, double jump height, and short hop height.

Things like removing Lucario's stock aura may be feasible as well, but will take some time.

So once again, suggestions are appreciated.

 

[KarateF22]

New buffs will also probably be put in place to make up for the removal of his CG. Any suggestions for what moves to buff to make Lucario better would be greatly appreciated.

Things we can currently do with codes:
Lower the startup or windown lag of any attack
Change the launch angle of any attack
Change the base knockback of any attack (changes hitstun proportionally)
Changes the scaling knockback of any attack (how much farther it sends at higher percentages than lower percentages)
Change the damage done by any attack.
Change character weight, fall speed, dash speed, full jump height, double jump height, and short hop height.

Things like removing Lucario's stock aura may be feasible as well, but will take some time.

So once again, suggestions are appreciated.

Make his uthrow send the opponent up and slightly forward at 60-80 degrees so that it is much harder to avoid his fair chain by DI'ing backwards... double or triple uthrow knockback while also increasing hitstun a bit to compensate for greater distance thrown but then reduce its scaling knockback to zero so it always does the same knockback (basically, turn uthrow in a set knockback move. it doesnt kill. ever. so might as well make it the ultimate combo setup move). Set lucario's floatiness back to vbrawl values. It feels like he floats TOO much now.

Make his upB not put him into helplessness. Make him always able to wall cling (or in other words, not require use of second jump and upb to wall cling... and be able to wall cling after the end of upb animation). Cut upb start time in half.... POSSIBLY reduce upb landing lag. Maybe some super armor for the startup frames of upb? Fix the glitch where if tapjump is off and he uses upb on the ground he cannot use it again until he jumps.

Make the entirety of nair, from start to finish, last slightly less amount of time (maybe 2/3 or 3/4) so one cannot as easily kill themselves using it off stage. Maybe up his dash speed slightly. Just slightly. Reduce entirety of sideb animation time when it doesnt grab (its fine when it does, just can be extremely laggy when it doesnt) to make it a less **** move.

Remove percent cap on aura property. Seriously. its pointless. If you let your opponent live to 200 or 300% you deserve to be punished for it. He shouldve been dead long ago.

double the speed of lucario's activated double team... it can currently be shielded in many sitautions or just plain miss due to an opponents high speed (perfect example: jigglypuff's rollout). Alternative solution is making it so whoever hit lucario during his doubleteam is stunned like ZSS dsmash without any extra damage.

Put no knockback on the first hit of his dair as that can sometimes knock them out of the second hit (you may have to experiment with this). Instead make them only flinch for the amount of time until the next hit of dair.

Thats about it.

 

[|RK|]

That ruins all balance. Lucario would **** Meta-Knight.

 

[KarateF22]

That ruins all balance. Lucario would **** Meta-Knight.

This essentially changes nothing about lucario's core game. Read carefully. he gets no more strength, no more damage, just more reliability on counterattacks. makes his recovery a little less gimpable and makes it a possible to use his damage-less upb for repositioning in certain offensive situations. his double team a little less worthless, and his uthrow.... well... it basically doesnt change the functionality of his uthrow. The only one that actually boosts his attacking abilities is the nair change. And it doesnt even boost the offensive abilities of it. It just makes the ENTIRETY of it quicker (which means the hitbox is out for a shorter period of time as well). uthrow does nothing more than his current uthrow does. Double team... just becomes nonworthless. as it is worthless atm. Uber high risk, low chance for average reward.

 

[|RK|]

Actually, it has crazy killing power, so WAY HIGH RISK for a pretty good reward. But it changes plenty about Lucario's core game. Lucario didn't have his ledge sweetspot removed since it is write-protected. We have a harder chance of getting gimped, can chain U-Throw, and our Double Team is actually already stronger than Marth's counter. We could then use Extremespeed upwards for a quick escape... his core game would be changed insanely.

 

[KarateF22]

mmmm.... ok... maybe the upb super armor was a bit much. but the rest i stand by. And marth's counter is better, ask any lucario. Our counter cannot be used via reactions because it takes a few frames to come out. You can actually be hit during its animation before invincibility kicks in. It happens quite often, actually. It is a prediction counter, not a reaction counter. That alone makes it mediocre and situational. The uthrow chaingrab is going to be removed, fyi.

 

[|RK|]

No, I said ours is stronger than Marth's. Slower, but stronger, and doesn't discriminate the attack used to activate it.

 

[KarateF22]

No, I said ours is stronger than Marth's. Slower, but stronger, and doesn't discriminate the attack used to activate it.

....neither does marths. anything with a hitbox activates his. my point is of the other changes anyways. i just want double team to come out quicker once activated, that is all. Lets talk of the other changes.

 

[|RK|]

Things like removing Lucario's stock aura may be feasible as well, but will take some time.

What.

Why would you even CONSIDER this? There's a reason Lucario is the best comeback character. His stock boosts. The normal Aura Boosts don't help much if the opponent is killing you at low percents :/

 

[|RK|]

....neither does marths. anything with a hitbox activates his. my point is of the other changes anyways. i just want double team to come out quicker once activated, that is all. Lets talk of the other changes.

I mean it doesn't discriminate by damage or knockback. If they were both hit by the first hit of Kirby's jab, Lucario's would be stronger. FAR stronger in fact.

 

[KarateF22]

What.

Why would you even CONSIDER this? There's a reason Lucario is the best comeback character. His stock boosts. The normal Aura Boosts don't help much if the opponent is killing you at low percents :/

I agree with this. stock boost is good. even if it nerfs us while ahead. the nerf isnt actually that bad tbh, it makes our knockback lower so we can combo easier.