Brawl+ Lucario

[GHNeko]

it is not a crutch. it is an integral part of lucarios playstyle. changing it would be wrong. leave it be. tripping is diff, fyi, as it is random and completely unavoidable and insurpassable through any amount of skill... it was kinda broken. lucarios stock boost is completely different

Anything that gives you a boost in performance when you are behind in a competition on a normal basis is a crutch.

inb4 omg lucario's aura% is a crutch.

Why? Because's Lucario's aura percent is not a crutch. You could have the more/same/less stock, and the ability acts the same. Aura Stock does not work like that. It changes based on whether you are losing or winning. It buffs when you're losing and nerfs when you're winning.

Tripping is avoidable but the methods you have to take are really extreme (ie walk, dont run LOL. Roll dodge to get to where you wanna go. Jump and move. Fly and move. Glide and move.) You could have tripping set to 100% and still avoid tripping by using those methods. So no, it wasn't broken. It was just unethical when it comes to competition because its random.


EDIT:

Let's compromise: Remove just the 0.9x and 0.8x stock aura.
My thoughts on Lucario isn't "He gets better with damage," but I see him as "His playstyle changes as he takes damage." He shifts from a combo-centric style to KO king...but what does the .9x and 0.8x aura do? It hinders him.

I'm perfectly fine with this. I've said I'd settle with that as well as just removing it. I just want the anti-competitive aspect of rewarding the player in last, OUT. Whether is has to be through removing it flat and dry, or picking out what makes the ability anti-competitive.

 

[KarateF22]

I'd also like to point out... his stock boost goes away the moment he catches up and vice versa. in the end it is still player skill which decides the game. I think it actually makes lucario very balanced, as this mechanic prevents him from having **** matchs for or against his favor. that is why he is so balanced.

 

[|RK|]

Actually, the .9x and .8x turn him into a combo MASTER. Theoretically, but untested, in the normal version of Brawl, Lucario can have a true chaingrab. His playstyle drastically changes either way and makes him a VERY versatile character in that respect.

 

[|RK|]

Why? Because's Lucario's aura percent is not a crutch. You could have the more/same/less stock, and the ability acts the same. Aura Stock does not work like that. It changes based on whether you are losing or winning. It buffs when you're losing and nerfs when you're winning.

So does Aura Percentage. Think about it. Winning from behind is the entire essence of Lucario. It's what he is based on. That is the character he is meant to be.

EDIT: WHOOPS, Double post...

 

[GHNeko]

I'd also like to point out... his stock boost goes away the moment he catches up and vice versa. in the end it is still player skill which decides the game. I think it actually makes lucario very balanced, as this mechanic prevents him from having **** matchs for or against his favor. that is why he is so balanced.

Irrelevant to what I've been repeating really. Players should catch up on their own regard, not because of an ability that helps them catch up. LOL.

Maybe that's why he so "balanced". Matches that he ***** in, he gets held back, and match ups that **** him, he gets buffed. rofl.

So does Aura Percentage. Think about it. Winning from behind is the entire essence of Lucario. It's what he is based on. That is the character he is meant to be.

EDIT: WHOOPS, Double post...

Even so, its less of a crutch than Aura Stock, as you can at least manipulate Aura %s more to your will than you can with A. Stock.

 

[KarateF22]

the opponent is responsible for both aura stock and percent, just fyi. actually... technically speaking u can only suicide, not damage urself. its not a crutch or hinderance at all. player skill takes massive precedence to aura stock... but proper utilization of aura stock can be beastly leaving it to player skill to decide things in the end. depending on player skill it can be an unnoticeable mechanic or awesome one for lucario. this makes it a COMPETITIVE mechanic

 

[|RK|]

Not necessarily. We aren't TRYING to get hit, y'know... Both Aura in general is connected to Lucario's life force. We can control Aura Stock as much as we can control Aura Percentage. Maybe AP is a BIT more controllable, but the same still goes for each. They work hand in hand.

 

[KarateF22]

you act like aura stock makes us easier to kill or something. it doesn't. in brawl+ it doesn't really even make it harder to kill. it simply alters our ability (barely, tbh) to rack damage. you can still combo kill the opponent in all iterations of lucario

 

[|RK|]

That was for Neko, sorry.

 

[tedward2000]

So what your saying is. Lets Remove a aspect of a character, that helps the match remain equal to who your fighting.

That in it's self is a crutch/boost.

Lucario would have to rely on his aura boost to catch up and win a match. Or just use the aura boost to overpower a match.

All other characters in the game remain at a neutral strength.
Lucario's Aura % boost puts him above the neutral, and this aura stock brings him back down. They together make him a fluctuating neutral strength, with little extra boost or degrade then most characters.

Remove the aura stock, and Lucario will start at slightly weakened-neutral to highly boosted the entire time. As soon as lucario has the boost ( which he gets sooner do to the .8x) the favor begins to tip more to lucario faster and faster. Then your fighting a demoncario that can not only chain you to the edge of the stage, but has enough strength behind his best attacks to kill you much sooner. The longer the boosted lucario survives the more % you take, which you begin to lose stock and nothing happens to lucario.

Oh! Then you Do kill the Cario, guess what, 50% later and the process begins all over again...
This saying, lucario would have a % advantage almost the entire match.
That is not equal.
-t2

 

[GHNeko]

the opponent is responsible for both aura stock and percent, just fyi. actually... technically speaking u can only suicide, not damage urself.

Stand there and let your opponent hit you....or sandbag. Either way, you're letting yourself get it.

depending on player skill it can be an unnoticeable mechanic or awesome one for lucario.

it simply alters our ability (barely, tbh) to rack damage. you can still combo kill the opponent in all iterations of lucario

lolwut


if it barely alters your ability, how can it have that much of an impact?

And using a mechanic to your advantage doesn't make it competitive. you could use tripping to your advantage when it presented yourself, but that didnt make it any less anti-competitive.

 

[|RK|]

Sandbagging is a stupid idea. Even for Lucarios. Especially in a game you live at lower percents, like B+.

 

[Greenpoe]

Actually, the .9x and .8x turn him into a combo MASTER. Theoretically, but untested, in the normal version of Brawl, Lucario can have a true chaingrab. His playstyle drastically changes either way and makes him a VERY versatile character in that respect.

In the average match between competent players, there isn't more than 1 stock of difference (4 lives vs. 2 or 3 lives vs. 1), thus, when you have the 0.9x Aura, you can't be a combo master because you're already at high %, and Lucario is only fantastic at comboing at low %'s.

If removing the 0.9x/0.8x stock aura is so devastating to balance, why not try it? If it works, great. If removing it actually causes serious balance issues, it can be turned off.

 

[KarateF22]

without stock aura, our percent aura effects us TOO much. we would have no chance vs early percent killers like MKs almighty gimpness and be too good vs crap killers due to our unstoppable damage output. aura stock balances this out.

P.S. to those who don't even main lucario, why are you here?

 

[Melomaniacal]

Most important quote:

I just recently learned about stock Aura...like 1-2 weeks ago.

No offense.
...but srsly.

 

[Greenpoe]

P.S. you two don't even main lucario, why are you here?

Who do you mean by that?

If you mean me, then you're wrong. Just because my avatar isn't Lucario does not mean that I don't main him, but my symbol next to my name is Lucario: I've mained Lucario since the first week that Brawl came out. If you look at the old posts from back then, you'll see my posts. I haven't been active in the Lucario forums because I quit competitive Brawl last year, then started again when I found out about Brawl+

Honestly, I really don't mind leaving the stock aura the way it is, but I care about what happens to Lucario...so I wouldn't want stock aura being removed altogether, but removing just the harmful stock aura would be fine with me.

Most of all, though, I think it's the placebo effect. If you check the Smash Workshop daily, you may remember when Leaf found out about how the changes of hitstun in the older Brawlplussery sets where actually just the placebo affect. When it was turned up, people said it was "too much" and when lowered, it was said to be "too little", and eventually people said that the hitstun should be slightly lower, so it was lowered a little, but then Leaf ran the numbers and found even "drastic changes" to the hitstun numbers were just a couple frames of stun.

 

[tedward2000]

P.S. to those who don't even main lucario, why are you here?

Well...just cause there's no lucario next to my name, doesn't imply I dont main him.
I've been in this board for a very long time, I know my cario. But you knew that didn't ya?

Don't Taze me bro.
-t2

 

[GHNeko]

without stock aura, our percent aura effects us TOO much. we would have no chance vs early percent killers like MKs almighty gimpness and be too good vs crap killers due to our unstoppable damage output. aura stock balances this out.

P.S. to those who don't even main lucario, why are you here?

in brawl, maybe. Not in Brawl+. MK's has been nerfed. :|

Most important quote:


No offense.
...but srsly.

Well, excuuuuse me princess.

 

[|RK|]

Well, excuuuuse me princess.

You should be ashamed.

 

[KarateF22]

in brawl, maybe. Not in Brawl+. MK's has been nerfed. :|

I know that. however, he is still a master of gimping recoveries and getting ppl off stage

 

[Jaigoda]

Neko... If you're unwilling to listen to some of the best Lucario mainers about the balancing of Lucario when you don't even main him yourself, and most of the other Brawl+ balancers are like you, then I fear that Brawl+ will fail miserably. You obviously do not understand Lucario, and you would do well to drop this terrible argument. You are not going to win us over in this. If you eliminate aura stock, you will alienate a LOT of Lucario mainers. Please, listen to what we're saying.

And if aura stock goes against Brawl+'s ethics, then you need to change your ethics, not our character.

 

[tedward2000]

Neko... If you're unwilling to listen to some of the best Lucario mainers about the balancing of Lucario when you don't even main him yourself, and most of the other Brawl+ balancers are like you, then I fear that Brawl+ will fail miserably. You obviously do not understand Lucario, and you would do well to drop this terrible argument. You are not going to win us over in this. If you eliminate aura stock, you will alienate a LOT of Lucario mainers. Please, listen to what we're saying.

And if aura stock goes against Brawl+'s ethics, then you need to change your ethics, not our character.

I second this, minus the fact the brawl+ will fail miserably. If lucario is changed to much, then Lucario will fail miserably. Brawl+ has the potential of success.

It won't achieve this success if the words of the players are not heard. Perhaps thats why people don't like it already.
-t2

 

[|RK|]

Jaigoda is right. It's like the Melee to Brawl transition. A lot of CF, Samus, Link, and Ganondorf mains stayed behind because their character was still meeting their expectations in Melee. You will only get less Lucarios in the transition if you refuse to accept our constant and accurate rebuttals to your points.

 

[KarateF22]

Jaigoda is right. It's like the Melee to Brawl transition. A lot of CF, Samus, Link, and Ganondorf mains stayed behind because their character was still meeting their expectations in Melee. You will only get less Lucarios in the transition if you refuse to accept our constant and accurate rebuttals to your points.

agreed. this issue is about wrapped up... lucario boards are against changing stock aura collectively. let's move onto other issues... like my previous suggestion concerning ftilt and upb changes

 

[GHNeko]

Alright. Alright. I concede.

BUT. I still want to bring up the lowering of Lucario's Aura % into an actual realistic range.

 

[Alus]

agreed. this issue is about wrapped up... lucario boards are against changing stock aura collectively. let's move onto other issues... like my previous suggestion concerning ftilt and upb changes

If you actually give lucario's up-b a hitbox I am going to quit brawl+

 

[Melomaniacal]

Alright. Alright. I concede.

BUT. I still want to bring up the lowering of Lucario's Aura % into an actual realistic range.

Given the nature of Brawl+, it actually makes sense to lower the cap. We will be dying at lower percentages.

 

[|RK|]

Agreed on that one. Neko, lowering the cap is brilliant. Maybe something proportional to normal Brawl... like how 172% was hard to live to, but still very possible... maybe 132% - 142%?

 

[Alus]

Agreed on that one. Neko, lowering the cap is brilliant. Maybe something proportional to normal Brawl... like how 172% was hard to live to, but still very possible... maybe 132% - 142%?

Im thinking somewhere between 100% and 135% guessing that people EDIT: (CAN I MEAN CAN !!!)l gimp you at around 75%.

Oh! Then you Do kill the Cario, guess what, 50% later and the process begins all over again...
This saying, lucario would have a % advantage almost the entire match.
That is not equal.
-t2

This was the only actually good point in this thread XD... Everyone else was trying to say that removing aura stock NERFED Lucario.

 

[KarateF22]

Make his uthrow send the opponent up and slightly forward at 60-80 degrees so that it is much harder to avoid his fair chain by DI'ing backwards... double or triple uthrow knockback while also increasing hitstun a bit to compensate for greater distance thrown but then reduce its scaling knockback to zero so it always does the same knockback (basically, turn uthrow in a set knockback move. it doesnt kill. ever. so might as well make it the ultimate combo setup move).

Make his upB not put him into helplessness. Make him always able to wall cling (or in other words, not require use of second jump and upb to wall cling... and be able to wall cling after the end of upb animation). Cut upb start time in half.... POSSIBLY reduce upb landing lag. Maybe some super armor for the startup frames of upb (just maybe, not entirely sure with this one)? Fix the glitch where if tapjump is off and he uses upb on the ground he cannot use it again until he jumps.

Maybe up his dash speed slightly. Just slightly. Reduce entirety of sideb animation time when it doesnt grab (its fine when it does, just can be extremely laggy when it doesnt) to make it a less **** move.

Put no knockback on the first hit of his dair as that can sometimes knock them out of the second hit (you may have to experiment with this). Instead make them only flinch for the amount of time until the next hit of dair.

Make ftilt twice as fast, but do half as much damage and knockback (or something like that) to make it a GTFO move for lucario.

Thats about it. I dont want a hitbox for upb... that would make it stupid.

Towards GHNeko... that is reasonable. I would be for doing that. The simplest method would be... if we reduce aura cap to 125%... iunstead of recoding all the values we just make it so that lucario takes 37.6% more damage while taking 72.6% as much knockback (values gotten by doing 172/125 and 125/172, respectively... which would make lucario's new 172% knockback values like his current 125%... but he gets to 172% as fast as he currently gets to 125%) so that we dont have to recode EVERY aura value.

 

[|RK|]

This was the only actually good point in this thread XD... Everyone else was trying to say that removing aura stock NERFED Lucario.

Tsk. You don't even read my posts no more.

EDIT: Make D-Throw less DI-able. Seriously, when it works it's a super sexy combo setup.

 

[Alus]

nevermind.............

Thats about it. I dont want a hitbox for upb... that would make it stupid.

Hooray For Common Sense!!!

 

[Jaigoda]

Just two things I'd like to say - First, thank you Neko for compromising, and I definitely do like the idea of lowering the aura cap (probably to like 130 or 140, since people usually die anywhere from 100-120, right? That would keep it around how it is for vBrawl).

Second, I'm actually all for Brawl+, and I do not think that it is going to fail miserably. I do think, on the other hand, that if it is managed badly and by people who don't listen to the masses, it WILL fail. I'd simply suggest to take advice from people who truly know their character, vBrawl or plus (since honestly, most characters haven't really drastically changed in terms of playstyle). I'm really hoping you guys can get this to work, 'cause it's one helluvanawesome game.

 

[KarateF22]

I just edited my post (sorry i do that a LOT because i always forget stuff) read the part near the bottom about aura cap changes and how to easily implement it.

 

[Greenpoe]

Towards GHNeko... that is reasonable. I would be for doing that. The simplest method would be... if we reduce aura cap to 125%... iunstead of recoding all the values we just make it so that lucario takes 37.6% more damage while taking 72.6% as much knockback (values gotten by doing 172/125 and 125/172, respectively... which would make lucario's new 172% knockback values like his current 125%... but he gets to 172% as fast as he currently gets to 125%) so that we dont have to recode EVERY aura value.

125% is ridiculously low. Cap means maxium aura. Now, it was pretty rare to live up to 170+% in vBrawl, but in Brawl+, I can easily live up to 125% (with good DI on FD). 140% or 150%. Lucario certainly isn't light, so he'll die later than most characters. But let's lean on the side of too high of a cap rather than too much (it's better to not buff enough than over-buff).

As for other buffs...
More hitstun to d-throw would be nice. It's such a cool-looking throw.

Lucario's grab game is terrible. Dash grab is laggy. Standing grab has horrific range. So...to give Lucario a half decent grab game, speed up the initial grab hitbox of his forward B. Speeding up the startup lag by 1.5x would be fantastic.

Speeding up f-tilt would be good, too, to a point where the hitbox comes out on frame 7 or 8...or is that too fast?

 

[KarateF22]

for 150% hed take 14.6% more damage but take 87.2% of his normal knockback

for 135% hed take 27.4% more damage but take 78.4% of his normal knockback

using the same equation for scaling ( 172/x and x/172 respectively)

 

[Fritz~9]

has anyone else noticed that his up-b no longer sweet spots the ledge in the latest version (NTSC-U "Near Gold")?

If you try and go for the ledge you just roll under it and fall to your death every time. I'm not sure if this change was intended or not but most people have told me it's a glitch that should be fixed soon.

Now when you recover you always have to go for landing on the stage, which has cost me a few gimps ( I go off stage, hit opponent, and WOULD zip back to ledge to ledgehog them for stock but cant so they recover). This also makes edge-guarding lucario for characters like marth stupidly simple. Marth jumps and nairs and it covers almost any area you could move recover to onstage.

I hope this wasn't an intended change, and a quick patch will fix it soon. Any thoughts?

Also, a few other characters need (better?) ledge sweet spots b/c they suffer from the "go for ledge and you lose your stock" issue. Namely: diddy, ness, lucas

ness and lucas can sweet spot but if off for the slightest amount they bounce off and fall to their death.

 

[phi1ny3]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9220413#post9220413

Their working on it, discuss it in this thread.