KarateF22
Smash Journeyman
At the same time marth's can do much more damage. Can we please discuss the other changes i suggested now?
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Brawl+ Lucario
- Thread starter Greenpoe
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KarateF22
Smash Journeyman
So you think the upb changes are broke? even w/o the superarmor component?
KarateF22
Smash Journeyman
How? and yes it does. the end of upb puts us into a helpless state if we dont cling to something unless they literally just changed that.
You must provide evidence to your claims of imbalance.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
As far as I know, it came from Brawl.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=163775
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=163775
KarateF22
Smash Journeyman
how would that make us broken??
I think it's from Mega Man. My username is after Mega Man: Red Joker form. Red Joker's abilities are Status Guard (Don't get statuses like paralysis, freezing, etc.) and Super Armor (removes flinching so you aren't pushed back by attacks and can continue attacking or charging your buster without stopping. You still get damage, though).
nightSN
Smash Ace
hmm alright i just recently got brawl+ and played around with lucario, and wow =\ the aura boost makes lucario abit... broken? but thats just my opinion. \
lucario has mad combos that can go all the way up to like 100%
LOL utilt <3
lucario has mad combos that can go all the way up to like 100%
LOL utilt <3
Revven
FrankerZ
The problem isn't because it nerfs the character, it's because it discourages competitive play and playing to win. Sakurai put the mechanic in so Lucario could both win AND lose so if he was in the lead he is punished for playing well and if he is losing he would gain a boost which would reward him for lousy play, the EXACT opposite of what competitive play is about.
His regular percent aura can stay, I think the aura stock should go, it's a buff to him and helps him out as we ARE after all getting rid of his CG and his Utilt gayness (I think we got rid of the Utilt gayness just recently too). Without aura stock he becomes like every other character, his KO moves won't get nerfed/buffed depending on how his stocks are so he can kill better when he's in the lead or in other words, play worlds better. It's a buff, it shouldn't be looked as something as "BAD" it's like stale moves exclusive to Lucario and it's stupid. It rewards/punishes the player for doing good/bad, how is this good for Lucario at all?
The percent aura is all that needs to be enough for Lucario to be unique. They went too far with aura stock.
His "CG" can be easily DI'd and is discouraged using past 2 grabs :/ besides, it also makes us lose when we're winning. How does it discourage competitive play? You're just removing the stuff that made Lucario attractive. Wait 'till they get to Lucario in the balance discussions before removing anymore. Another thing: instead of making strong chars WEAKER... make weak chars STRONGER... for some reason, it just seems more appealing to have super-powerful fights. Mebbe I'm weird that way :/
Okay. So...Aura Stock.
It's stupid (imo). Why? Because it discourages competition, which is what Brawl+ is striving to be. Lucario doesn't need it. Why? He has Aura Percents. Aura stock should simply be removed, and any nerfs that come about because of it can be balanced out with WELL THOUGHT OUT BUFFS in order to compensate for the lack of another aura based ability.
If the Lucario is getting killed at low percents, that means that lucario needs to get better and learn how to recover. He shouldn't be rewarded or given a crutch for failing. Simple as that. Winners are given wins via skill, not unnecessary abilities that already exist through a different method. Aura % stays. Aura Stock goes. It's anti competitive. You cannot say nay for that is factual. It rewards playing poorly, and punishes playing well.
You say its not a big deal? It may not be, but the ethic behind it is. What it stands for is the sole reason why it needs to go. If it barely effects lucario when he is in the lead/behind, why even fight for something of the sort? To support Brawl+, is to support competitive smash. Aura stock is anti-competitive.
End discussion. To allow aura stock is allowing anticompetitive which is what Brawl is. Not Brawl+.
if he really suffers, we'll buff him where its needed.
It's stupid (imo). Why? Because it discourages competition, which is what Brawl+ is striving to be. Lucario doesn't need it. Why? He has Aura Percents. Aura stock should simply be removed, and any nerfs that come about because of it can be balanced out with WELL THOUGHT OUT BUFFS in order to compensate for the lack of another aura based ability.
If the Lucario is getting killed at low percents, that means that lucario needs to get better and learn how to recover. He shouldn't be rewarded or given a crutch for failing. Simple as that. Winners are given wins via skill, not unnecessary abilities that already exist through a different method. Aura % stays. Aura Stock goes. It's anti competitive. You cannot say nay for that is factual. It rewards playing poorly, and punishes playing well.
You say its not a big deal? It may not be, but the ethic behind it is. What it stands for is the sole reason why it needs to go. If it barely effects lucario when he is in the lead/behind, why even fight for something of the sort? To support Brawl+, is to support competitive smash. Aura stock is anti-competitive.
End discussion. To allow aura stock is allowing anticompetitive which is what Brawl is. Not Brawl+.
if he really suffers, we'll buff him where its needed.
Revven
FrankerZ
What do you think we did with Bowser, Ivysaur, and Link? Ignore them? No! We buffed the hell out of them. They were weak as **** and now all three are REALLY good right now! Bowser is loads better, Link can actually KO efficiently now and Ivysaur can actually get in your business and **** you up so bad you wish you had gimped him on his first stock.
There's just SOME things some characters have that they shouldn't have that puts them an edge above most other characters, like Pika's Dthrow CG and Sheik's Ftilt lock (which BOTH have been fixed now, well, Pika Dthrow fix is temporary until the hitbox code affects throws). We're going to be buffing weak characters, we ARE focusing on them right now, we're done with people like MK. Lucario isn't looking STRONG right now, the only glaring strong things he has are the Utilt and his CG (even if it is DI'able, the DI is easy to follow from what I have seen).
Alus
Smash Champion
I kind of agree with removing the aura stock. It rewards players that gimp him early, It rewards carios with good DI, When you get a kill you don't go into a pathetic debuff, and makes playing doubles actually something to think about AS STRAIGHT FOWARD.
It doesnt reward players that gimp him early. It hurts them, because then he gets a boost when he is behind. It hinders lucario's who survive with good DI because once they're ahead in stock/time. They get nerfed.
Which is how its not supposed to be. If you're falling behind, you're falling behind for a reason and you need to step up your own game on your own, not given a crutch. That doesn't promote improving your own skill. That promotes, "Oh. Okay. He killed me, now I can catch up without worrying too much." and it also promotes, "Oh crap. He's behind me. He can kill me earlier now. Let's camp a bit more than normal."
Saving the person who is falling behind is...once again. Anti-competitive. Competition is to see who is the best. If someone is falling behind, he isnt the best. Obviously.
A lucario falling behind doesnt need more skill, he needs less because he's getting an undeserved boost. A player that is losing to a lucario doesnt need more skill because now the lucario is going to have to try harder to kill him because he's being held back.
You see the logic here?
Alus
Smash Champion
You do know that im talking about WITHOUT a aura boost through stock right?
I AGREE WITH YOU!
L2read lol XD
The first part of your post really doesnt insinuate that. You realize that right? >_>
lol poor wording
Alus
Smash Champion
Is this any better?
<3 Much better. Thank you.
KarateF22
Smash Journeyman
You guys don't understand how Lucario is played. Leave aura stock. tbh, due to lucarios unique style, aura stock doesn't "punish" good/bad players. instead it simply changes our game. at low percents and when ahead, we rely on comboes due to our lower knockback and being in the opponents face to fight. when behind and at higher percents, we use our higher knockback and spacing to fight. you guys have no right to remove lucarios stock boost when the majority of Lucario mains want it in.
Alus
Smash Champion
They ARE keeping the Damage counter Aura... Its just that you shouldnt automatically go to aura boost/debuff for death...
You get stronger for taking damage...you reset when you die...
Your teammates dont let you get weaker for death... and your opponents dont let you get weaker for death...
There are more advantages to lucario WITHOUT having stock being involved...
The 0- 170% damage aura counter is all lucario needs... the stock counter just messes with the game... and hurts lucario more than it helps...
KarateF22
Smash Journeyman
stock boost almost always helps lucario. when you kill ur opponent the lower knockback means you can combo a bit better despite having higher percentage while when behind the knockback boost helps you get the kill a bit better so u don't have to be hurt so much to kill. removing stock boost/debuff DIRECTLY nerfs lucarios entire game
Considering that aura stock is, by ethic, a sakurai mechanic (ie unrequired). It should go. That is the sole reason needed.
You say I dont understand how lucario is played? I may not main him, but I understand enough of his metagame on how he works. (lol learning match ups.)
You say you rely on Aura stock when youre behind for KB boosts and when you're ahead for combos? The thing about this is that it isnt always in your favor? What if you want KB boost, but you're ahead? What if you want to combo, but you're behind? You have less control over that when you have aura stock, where as with Aura %, you have alot more control. I've seen lucario's sandbag against me in order to reach a desired percent in order to play the way then had wanted. Do you want to lose a stock simply to get an extra KB boost? I dont think so. Yes. You can use it to your advantage, but you have so little control over it that more than likely, aura stock will be giving you an undesired effect. It's more of a hinderance than something helpful. ALso, Aura stock can counter attack your Aura percent. You want to kill, but you're ahead, and even if you are at high percents, the aura stock will drag you down and make it harder for you to kill. ._.
It's an idiotic concept that already exists but is inferior to Aura Percents. You DONT need it when you have something better and much more controlable. Any nerfs Lucario suffers from the removal of aura stock will be given back in Brawl+ Buffs. It's that simple. It's not a mechanic you need, its not a useful one, it only rewards the lesser skilled, and it being practical is more situational than ganon's utilt. More than likely, you rely on the use of Aura % more than you do Aura stock because you want to be ahead. You WANT to win, you dont want to LOSE stock. So if that's what you're aiming for, you realize that aura stock is going to hold you back for winning. That isn't right. That isnt fair.
It's not only a nerf, its a buff as well because then Lucario isnt punished for WINNING A MATCH WITH THE SKILL HE HAS. wtf.
Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise
Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
This post is going to be very cynical and Insulting. Flame me.
First of all, getting rid of "Aura stock", or having the power to, is going to be Brawl +'s "Sweep under the rug accident". That's... extremely stupid, because that's what makes Lucario, Lucario, and that's what makes his fans play him. Lucario is that Goku character that when he's in a pinch, you can motivate yourself to come back, and win. It's players USUALLY (Not all of ya) Consist of those Anime guys who wish that they were Goku/Lucario, and they get really involved when playing as him. Not to mention the fact that Lucario isn't amazing to begin with, Stripping him with a base ability that was implemented in the game to somewhat Nurf him in the tier list is just playing God, and I say For shame Brawl +, For Shame. You made this game to manipulate the mechanics and the engine of the game, not strip characters of their abilities.
Crew battles would be complete crap. I always put my Lucarios in a little later, knowing that if they are low in stock, it's just going to be a slaughter house when the next guy comes in. That's the point, and that's what makes lucario even more Viable. You're going to take that away from them? You might as well get rid of Diminishing moves while you're at it. And make it so that PT can't switch either, cause it's an advantage that should be removed also. /sarcasm.
So, if you take it away, All you're doing is just Nerfing Lucario, Hella hard for NO reason. It's not like in vBrawl he's unstoppable even with his Stock thingy. I don't know brawl +'s motives, but honestly and here comes the 'flame me I'm Sky the Cynical Old man when it comes to Brawl +' it sounds like you guys are just opting out of having to deal with such a hard character, and you just want to make it a bit easier on everybody. And that, my friends, is F u c k i n g r e t a r d e d.
Here are some things I'll actually quote, to counteract the argument at hand.
Thanks. I'm ready for the Flame wave k? (See what I did there?)
First of all, getting rid of "Aura stock", or having the power to, is going to be Brawl +'s "Sweep under the rug accident". That's... extremely stupid, because that's what makes Lucario, Lucario, and that's what makes his fans play him. Lucario is that Goku character that when he's in a pinch, you can motivate yourself to come back, and win. It's players USUALLY (Not all of ya) Consist of those Anime guys who wish that they were Goku/Lucario, and they get really involved when playing as him. Not to mention the fact that Lucario isn't amazing to begin with, Stripping him with a base ability that was implemented in the game to somewhat Nurf him in the tier list is just playing God, and I say For shame Brawl +, For Shame. You made this game to manipulate the mechanics and the engine of the game, not strip characters of their abilities.
Crew battles would be complete crap. I always put my Lucarios in a little later, knowing that if they are low in stock, it's just going to be a slaughter house when the next guy comes in. That's the point, and that's what makes lucario even more Viable. You're going to take that away from them? You might as well get rid of Diminishing moves while you're at it. And make it so that PT can't switch either, cause it's an advantage that should be removed also. /sarcasm.
So, if you take it away, All you're doing is just Nerfing Lucario, Hella hard for NO reason. It's not like in vBrawl he's unstoppable even with his Stock thingy. I don't know brawl +'s motives, but honestly and here comes the 'flame me I'm Sky the Cynical Old man when it comes to Brawl +' it sounds like you guys are just opting out of having to deal with such a hard character, and you just want to make it a bit easier on everybody. And that, my friends, is F u c k i n g r e t a r d e d.
Here are some things I'll actually quote, to counteract the argument at hand.
Remember, though you may believe that it's wrong to get rid of it due to just, nerfing principles, I'm willing to bed that Lucario Mains have a totally different strategy each stock, am I wrong? Whether or not to implement Camping in their game a bit more when they are up a stock, or to flat out aggress the **** out of you when they are down a stock is... a big shift in Metagame. That being said, I'm pretty sure that if you got rid of this buff, the Metagame for Lucario would HAVE to change. And having said that, It's not fair to the Lucario community to take this away, when I'm sure some of them have been loyal Brawl + People for some time now, and they are now going to have to reshape the way that they play, and that's not fair at all. It's like you're only targeting them. I think this wouldn't have been a big deal if the people who made Brawl + Did this from the beginning, but I mean... think of it this way. You're just thinking about doing this... now? Like... So what, when you notice that Switching with PT becomes irritating, you're going to restrict that/Make it longer to come out too? I don't think it's fair at all to hinder a character because of some recent discovery. TL;DR, I think that Brawl + Had their chance to take every character into account when they first made this, and to change it now is just a contradiction in morality and it's just F*cked up.GHNeko said:
Thanks. I'm ready for the Flame wave k? (See what I did there?)
Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
Hey, as a Lucario main, I completely agree with that! 
Don't change the stock aura, or even the aura at all. That's dumb. Really dumb. Really really dumb.
Don't change the stock aura, or even the aura at all. That's dumb. Really dumb. Really really dumb.
Cultivate your hunger before you IdealiseHey, as a Lucario main, I completely agree with that!
Don't change the stock aura, or even the aura at all. That's dumb. Really dumb. Really really dumb.
Are you agreeing with what I said?
Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
I'm agreeing that there's no reason to change the aura. It is what it is for a reason, and it accomplishes that fine the way it is now.
It's not about what it accomplishes. what it buffs. What it nerfs. It's what it represents. Its the ethic/morality/concept/idea/principle behind Aura Stock.
The argument of whether it makes lucario worse or better is null due to the ability to buff him where he needs it.
The argument of whether it makes lucario worse or better is null due to the ability to buff him where he needs it.
Alus
Smash Champion
see quote...
Revven
FrankerZ
I don't think it accomplishes anything (aura stock that is). I think it's restricting Lucario's potential tbh.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
I don't think Diddy's bananas accomplish anything. I think it's restricting Diddy's potential tbh.
Jaigoda
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2008
- Messages
- 123
Lucario still kills well when ahead in stock (only a 0.9 mod for 1 stock up iirc).
Lucario still combos well when behind in stock, and only stops comboing 10 or 20% lower (which he makes up for by killing earlier and doing more damage in general).
I don't care if it has a 'Sakurai Mentality' to it. The whole ****ing game is Sakurai's game. If you wanted to get rid of all the supposed 'Sakurai Mentality' things, you'd be left with Melee.
It was my impression that the Brawl+ project only took out things detrimental to the game (tripping, chaingrabs), and added things that would improve the quality of the game. So why take stock aura out? It's not hurting anything and it's honestly one of the truly innovative ideas of Brawl. And anyway, this is not a grudge-game agaisnt Sakurai. This is a game meant to improve upon Brawl to make a more fun and competitive game.
EDIT:
Lucario still combos well when behind in stock, and only stops comboing 10 or 20% lower (which he makes up for by killing earlier and doing more damage in general).
I don't care if it has a 'Sakurai Mentality' to it. The whole ****ing game is Sakurai's game. If you wanted to get rid of all the supposed 'Sakurai Mentality' things, you'd be left with Melee.
It was my impression that the Brawl+ project only took out things detrimental to the game (tripping, chaingrabs), and added things that would improve the quality of the game. So why take stock aura out? It's not hurting anything and it's honestly one of the truly innovative ideas of Brawl. And anyway, this is not a grudge-game agaisnt Sakurai. This is a game meant to improve upon Brawl to make a more fun and competitive game.
EDIT:
Auraraped.
XavantTheEnigma
Smash Journeyman
wat
10wats.
That's not a good example at all.
Aura Stock is detrimental because it hinders who is ever winning and buffs who ever is losing. Lucario or not. If Aura stock only buffed lucario, not nerfed him when ahead, I'd be for Aura stock. But that's not how it is. If he kills well when he's ahead, and combos well when he's behind, why fight for something that basically says, "Hey. You're losing, lets give you a boost! And you...YOU'RE WINNING. THAT'S NOT FAIR. YOU GET NERFED."
It. Makes. No. Sense. It's detrimental to the competitve aspect of the game, and nerfs lucario for being in the lead. It's something that's forced upon you and something you have to deal with. It's something you cant control either.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
No. It's not. Diddy's banana's are his potential. Lucario's Aura is his potential. Aura Stock != All of Lucario's Aura-based abilities. He'd still have Aura %s so he's still have Aura so he'd still have his potential.
So no. It's not a good example.
So no. It's not a good example.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
Nope. It was the greatest example ever. It will probably remain to be the greatest example for years to come. Decades, even.
But I just don't agree with changing the aura, so really it's no use arguing. Neither of us are going to change our opinions, so it's not something worth arguing.
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