Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[3GOD]

except that she only has 3 effective moves at this range:
Fsmash
Side B
Netral B

Neutral B is slow enough that it's EASILY reflected, making it a BAD idea for ZSS

Side B and Fsmash are both REALLY laggy and REALLY easy for Zelda to punish.... the way side B's hitboxes work, Zelda can atcuall dash THTOUGH the attack and land a dash attack and Fsmash can be shielded and THEN punished or attacked before it comes out with all it's lag... and other than that... most of her ground attacs are rather innefective... and even THOSE are clearly not absolute winners

I would never use Fsmash as ZSS since it's a terrible move. You are correct that Neutral B shouldn't be used against Zelda either (I personally don't really use it much in any matches).

Side-B however is where it's at with ZSS. It can be used from the air which allows adjustments to the spacing of the move. Also, ZSS can dash away and Side-B back toward Zelda. You are right that it has a hole in the middle of the attack, but it makes little difference since ZSS can keep Zelda at the end of the whip for the most part. A good ZSS will not use Side-B when the opponent is close enough to get inside before its hit box appears.

If Zelda begins to approach (which she basically has to), then ZSS is put at an advantageous position. She has plenty of very fast attacks including Dtilt, Ftilt, Utilt, Jab, Dash Attack. Many of these are great for setting up Uair juggling.

It doesn't really matter if there are only 3 moves that can reach Zelda from the "safe range" since the Side-B is good enough alone to keep Zelda at bay and force unsafe approaches. A lot of characters abuse one move not necessarily to build damage, but to keep their spacing and lure unsafe responses from their opponents. Marth's Fair is a great example of this. ZSS's Side-B is kind of like Marth's Fair, only with a lot more range and a fair bit slower on startup (the ending lag is only 10 frames or so actually).

 

[adumbrodeus]

But that's the thing, EVERYBODY thinks that way. Yes, even you. If you made your own match-up chart would you have Ness >> Zelda because of that thread where the poster claimed that it was basically his easiest match-up? For all intents and purposes, this chart is a visual indication of what I've been lead to believe about the match-ups. Like tiers and other such stuff, everybody has their own opinion.

For plenty of match-ups I've been pursuaded by others, but just the same there are plenty more where I am simply not convinced.

Problem is, for this type of chart, it SHOULDN'T be your personal opinion, it should be based on the consensus of the community (really, the best sources are the character match-up boards).

As of right now, you are maintaining THE Brawl Character match-up chart, a brawl match-up chart, which means that you have to accept the fact that you simply don't have as much experience as the community as a whole, and you'd be better to refer to more efficient sources instead of trusting your judgment.

It is a guide after all, in order to help the community it has to be as accurate as possible, and 1 person's opinions, knowledge and experience < the entire community's opinions, knowledge, and experience.

I personally agree that it's Peach>Olimar, but I think Peach>>Olimar is a bit much. Most disagree with me though, so I can understand if you and Ivan want it to be that way. I've got no problem with it. The Olimar boards currently have the matchup as 65:35 Peach.

The reasons I think Peach>Olimar and not Peach>>Olimar is just b/c of Olimar's character traits. He's got SO much freakin range that even with all of Peach's approaches and ways to get off the pikmin, it can trouble Peach. This is IMO from personal experience. I'll admit it's hard, but there's ways around Peach's floating, her priority, and her gimping.

When I say range, I'm mostly talking about the disjointedness on his grab, fsmash, upsmash, and pikmin throw. Those alone are enough to keep most characters from having an advantage over him regardless of every other advantage they have over Olimar.

EVERYONE has priority over Olimar's pikmin attacks. They don't even have priority. Sonic has priority on his attacks. This is something we have to deal with every match. They way we get around these are his speed, quickness, the speed on his attacks, his mobility, WAC (his whistle SA), the range on his attacks, disjointedness, and his small size. Peach is no different from any other character, except that she can float, which can pose a problem. (and this is why people say Peach>Olimar) If she didn't have the float, it wouldn't be any different from any other matchup.

I'd rather not discuss the specifics why Peach>Olimar. I have some stuff that needs to get done tonight. Maybe later. I'll answer any other questions you have tomorrow.

Really, it's not that I want it to be, I just think it does more service to people to know precisely how things are. It seems every match-up discussion that has involved ganondorf, I've argued he is at a disadvantage, in spite of the fact that he's my secondary, why? Because I have experience with him, I know what issues he has, and if he gets an advantageous match-up that isn't actually advantagious, then ganondorf players will be at a disadvantage, thinking they've got an easy fight when they haven't. That's the tact I take with every match-up, only hurts people to be inaccurate.

Yeah, I know the grab, problem is, peach can pretty much stay aerial whenever she is in range of it. Things that can reach in the air, she can easily outprioritize, especially her because of her bair and dair. The fact that she can maintain this to approach...

Sure, the float is only one advantage, but for this particular match-up it's amazing advantage which just shuts down just about everything Olimar can do, in combination with her aerials. The overb is a nice touch as well, because it activates on the pikaman, and the bair to jab coming out before sheildgrab just seals the deal.

Over match-ups, speed mobility, vB, and disjointedness get around the priority issue. Unfortunately, not this one.

Having played this match-up as an utterly newb peach (not a secondary, just picked her up a few times to play out this match-up) against some very experienced Olimars, I just found that Peach just controls the match too reliably if she abuses her strengths.


Debate it when you want though, I have no objection to waiting on your response.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

If Zelda begins to approach (which she basically has to), then ZSS is put at an advantageous position. She has plenty of very fast attacks including Dtilt, Ftilt, Utilt, Jab, Dash Attack. Many of these are great for setting up Uair juggling..

except almost all of Zelda's moves will outrange and outprioritize all of those.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Next Zelda things to look into:

Zelda Vs. Ice Climbers:
You have: =
I say: +
Reason: Zelda ouranges the icies, is VERY hard to grab which SEVERLY hampers their grab game... which marginalizes their gameplay entirely. Her large hitboxes quite easily mob both climbers... an outrange the rest of their attacks.... mobbing them can lead to easy seprarations and REALLY hampers them... it's just an awful matchup for them.

Zelda Vs. Peach
You have: +
I say: =
Reason: I've given my reasons for this one... hold out though... a lot of my fellow mains don't agree... maybe they haven't played skilled enough peaches or are reading her better than I?

Zelda Vs. Toon Link
You have: +
I say: =
Reason: I really can't see how Zelda significantly outplays or counters toon link... it's definitely one of the harder matchups I play... which leads me to believe it's even... could be wrong though.

Zelda Vs. ZSS
You have: =
I say: +
Reason: honestly... what does ZSS have here? Zelda outprioritizes, outpowers and even outWEIGHS (I think) ZSS. Quite simply... ZSS can;t kill Zelda NEAR as easily as she can be killed, and with Zelda's attacks, she even has a hard time getting inside to wrack up damage.




Now for Shiek.... right now, I'm just looking at space animals... bump them all up one...

Shiek Vs. Fox
You have: =
I say: +
Reason: Honstly, why not? Shiek tilt locks fox like none other... that's like... LOTS of free damage and it CAN combo into a KO.... like.... wow... and, even if it doesn't, it puts him at a high enough damage for Zelda to ****.... not like shiek suffers the matchup enough to force a swtich... shiek could comfortably stay out if desired... Zelda would just KO the freshly ***** fox more easily.

Shiek Vs. Falco:
You have: -
I say: =
Reason: Falco can chainthrow and edgeguard you, you can tilt lock and gimp him. He has all his tricks on you, you're ore gamplay is better... it's a REALLY gay matchup because you both counter each other so well.

Sheik Vs. Wolf:
You have: =
I say: +
Reason: Just like fox and falco, he's tilt lock fodder. Besides that, he's INCREDIBLY easy to combo.... you can't KO particularly easily, BUT you can wrack up the damage SIGNIFICANTLY making it a lot easier for you to KO than it otherwise might be.... besides you can edgehog him pretty well or switch to Zelda to KO.

Actually... I'd put peach as Zelda's 3rd worst matchup... right behind G&W and Marth.... but there's NO way this is our advantage.

 

[Ilex]

Is there a reason why Diddy > Ganon? I think that they're neutral.

From my experience, Diddy's overall lack of killing moves makes it difficult to KO Ganondorf because he's so heavy, and Diddy is also very light so it's easy for Ganon to KO him. On the flipside though Ganon easily slips on Diddy' naners due to his large size and Diddy can overwhelm Ganon with his fast attacks. Overall I'd say that the matchup is pretty fair to both sides.

 

[Judge Judy]

Diddy's bananas give him a lot of control and setups, a lot of his match-ups are in his favor soely cause of his bananas.

 

[Wogrim]

Wait which moves?
the only ones I can think of that can be punished with a Falcon Punch are the ^B
grapple (grounded) and his Usmash. the Usmash could be difficult because of the range it has on it when DAC'ed.

( unlikely though).
That is quite far from half his moves.

Except you have the issue in that link is a decent camper.
the whole point of the arrows and boomerang isn't for their priority since frankly, pit's arrows have the same amount if not less.

He can cancel his hero bow and fire instantly so its quicker than most think.
Boomerang is rather quick and could yank Falcon into a Dsmash/jab/Nair or just be used to annoy.
Bombs have a number of tricks as well as bomb smashing.
His Zair is lagless and his Dsmash is fast and powerful.
yeah you can juggle but if you pop him too high he can Dair and land on the ground without the lag . Considering the massive amount of priority Falcon won't go for a Uair while its out.
Let alone the fact that Link will usually have a bomb so he can drop it to cover him from below.

I see it being a slight disadvantage for Falcon because falcon can punish him and gimp his awful recovery, but can have issues approaching him. As well as the fact that so many of Link.

Saying half his moves are punishable with Falcon Punch was an exaggeration so I'm not going to argue it.

Arrows' weak priority makes them pretty useless even if fast (I've Falcon Kicked through an arrow and hit Link).
Boomerang is only good because it can interrupt aerial approaches pretty well, but the pulling effect can also be turned against Link so it isn't an advantage for either character.
Bombs I would consider Link's most difficult projectile for Falcon, but they are far from perfect, especially because they need time to pull out and can hurt Link too.
ZAir is fast but as far as camping goes I havn't seen it used for better effect than Link's projectiles, since its damage is pretty crappy.
DSmash is alright but not amazing, and I feel like Falcon's is better.
If Link DAirs Falcon can time and space a Falcon Punch whether or not Link gets the landing lag.
Falcon won't come from straight below because of DAir, so bomb drop will rarely cover Link.

Falcon > Link? No way. Link's disjointed hitbox makes any attempt to approach him impossible for Mr.No-Range & No Projectile. Link outcamps and outranges him. Falcon can gimp his recovery? Yeah maybe but then again, Falcon has to knock Link off the stage before that, which is diddicult for him

I said neutral not advantage. Disjointed hitboxes are tough but certainly not impossible.
For camping, Link's bombs are good but not so useful since Falcon can get in your face pretty fast, boomerang is good for interrupting an approach but is basically useless for several seconds if it misses (since you can't pull out another). Arrows can be cancelled quickly but their poor priority gets beaten/clanked on a lot of moves, making them pretty much useless. Obviously Falcon has to approach, but it's not that hard to do so.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I said neutral not advantage. Disjointed hitboxes are tough but certainly not impossible.
For camping, Link's bombs are good but not so useful since Falcon can get in your face pretty fast, boomerang is good for interrupting an approach but is basically useless for several seconds if it misses (since you can't pull out another). Arrows can be cancelled quickly but their poor priority gets beaten/clanked on a lot of moves, making them pretty much useless. Obviously Falcon has to approach, but it's not that hard to do so.

Link outcamps Falcon easily. His arrows are fast and not easy to "beat" (especially for Falcon) and with his Boomerang he can keep him away easily. He outranges him on the ground and has better overall priority in the air. I never heard, that Falcon even had a decent approach...

All you were saying here is that Link has a lot of things to pwn the **** out of CF but that players skill can make a victory for CF? Well...old news is old.

 

[TomTom]

M2K came fourth in a recent tournament to a Diddy Kong. Perhaps this is due to a bad match-up on his part? Here's the thread in which M2K proposes that Diddy Kong could be considered an MK 'counter'.

 

[DanGR]

Nah, diddy doesn't have anything special on MK. m2k just isn't used to diddy yet +ninjalink has a beast diddy. He'll learn how to deal with the nanerz sooner or later.

 

[isomorphism]

He beat Azen as well, when he was MK. In fact, NL didn't lose a single match to an MK. When he switched to Lucario, Azen was able to beat him. So it seems to me that it wasn't just that they didn't know the matchup, unless it's easier for Lucario than MK.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

The character match-up discussion thread link for Lucario is very, very old. Here's the new link:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176912

The chart as we see it is also posted in there. If you want reasoning as to why your chart is wrong on Lucario, then check out the second post, then select the character you want to read up on. For example, ZSS, Lucario actually has a pretty good advantage on her. It would be marked as a slight advantage on your chart though.

Anyways, there you go. Hope that helps keep everything updated/'accurate'.

 

[Greenstreet]

I don't think Game and Watch has a huge advantage over Sonic.
Hmm...
Reasons: Game and Watches lag on moves like his pump and flame make for abuse of uthrow uair at low percentages, as well as the fact Sonic has a fantastic grab game against Game and Watch.
Sonic Speed is constantly putting Game and Watch in a situation where defense is the only option, giving Sonic any method of approach he likes. His bair hits faster than Game and Watches match....
he is highly succeptable to a spin charge jump combo after he dsmashes of even usmash.
Dash attack gets out of the range of the key and therefore can be used multiple times.

Just a couple of reasons... i am suggesting he has an advantage but not a big 1.
Probably get flamed.
L8as.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Arrows' weak priority makes them pretty useless even if fast (I've Falcon Kicked through an arrow and hit Link).

Except the majority if the time Link WILL have a bomb in hand. He can easily SH throw a bomb then Arrow cancel. So if you Falcon kick the bomb will hit you.

Boomerang is only good because it can interrupt aerial approaches pretty well, but the pulling effect can also be turned against Link so it isn't an advantage for either character.

Wait what?
So you're telling me you're going to be capable of using the pulling effect to your advantage as easily as Link does??
Once Link starts yanking you in with his boomerang expect an Ftilt/Dsmash/Utilt.
At which point Falcon WILL get outprioritized and outranged.
The boomerang is also very good for disrupting Falcon's recovery ability.

Or it can be used for baiting.

Bombs I would consider Link's most difficult projectile for Falcon, but they are far from perfect, especially because they need time to pull out and can hurt Link too.

Or he can use his Zair for spacing and keep Falcon at bay as he pulls out a bomb.
It doesn't take long for a bomb to come oout and once he has one he can cover himself by chucking one in the air.
If he hurts himself with the bomb that actually benefits him since it spaces him away from the opponent.

ZAir is fast but as far as camping goes I havn't seen it used for better effect than Link's projectiles, since its damage is pretty crappy.

Damage isn't the point.
Its fast, has no lag, can go into
Zair~Bomb~Usmash/Dash up to higher percents.
Considering his Zair can completely disrupt a characters approach game and shuts down a good amount of characters when it comes to SH its pretty good.

DSmash is alright but not amazing, and I feel like Falcon's is better.

How?
Links=faster with better vertical killing power.

If Link DAirs Falcon can time and space a Falcon Punch whether or not Link gets the landing lag.

Wait what?
When?
You'd have to Falcon Punch very quickly and not only that be careful due to the massive amount of priority on the Dair. Once the Dair is done Link can do anything he wants.
Or he can use abomb then Dair stopping you from Falcon Punching him all together.

Falcon won't come from straight below because of DAir, so bomb drop will rarely cover Link.

Bomb drop covers his side not directly beneath him and if the bomb lands on the ground before him it will knock him away fro Falcon's punch.
Which is too difficult to land unless Link screws up to begin with.

I said neutral not advantage. Disjointed hitboxes are tough but certainly not impossible.

Of course not but there is also the range and how much area they cover when used.

For camping, Link's bombs are good but not so useful since Falcon can get in your face pretty fast,

At which point Link can Smash out of his bomb or chuck them in the air to cover the air and prevent being grabbed.
Or he can SH bomb~arrow cancel.
Yeah Falcon is fast but he has issues getting around the projectiles.

boomerang is good for interrupting an approach but is basically useless for several seconds if it misses (since you can't pull out another).

Which is why you usually will have a bomb or an arrow to follow up with while the boomerang comes back.

Arrows can be cancelled quickly but their poor priority gets beaten/clanked on a lot of moves, making them pretty much useless.

Again SH bomb~arrow helps and the fact that its clanking helpos since it disrupts and baits Falcon.

Obviously Falcon has to approach, but it's not that hard to do so.

Its difficult because he has little priority to most moves and lacks the options when it comes to approaching.

You also have his slow kill moves, so even if you do rack up the damage, you'll have an issue killing.

 

[Keoki]

great chart really helped me a lot. although, doesnt kirby have an advantage over falco?? (heres why)
1. kirby can duck under his lasers even he he just shoots them on the ground w/o sh'ing
2. kirby can suck up falco and 'steal' his lasers, and then proceed to SHDL himself
3. (i think) kirby is too floaty, and can escape falcos cg early
4. if falco does do the d-throw > dair off the edge combo,, kirby has a good enough recovery to make it back to the stage, but that probably wont happen in the first place due to the cg escape.
-- imo kirby has a big advantage. if not, at least a little bit of an advantage, but not a disadvantage like posted. otherwise
Great Chart

 

[ShadowLink84]

1. kirby can duck under his lasers even he he just shoots them on the ground w/o sh'ing

Yeah and how long do you plan to duck?
Ducking does nothing Falco can keep SDLing and harass you with his Dair.

2. kirby can suck up falco and 'steal' his lasers, and then proceed to SHDL himself

True but it is difficult to do so.

3. (i think) kirby is too floaty, and can escape falcos cg early

True but Falco has other means of racking damage and doesn't really need the CG.

4. if falco does do the d-throw > dair off the edge combo,, kirby has a good enough recovery to make it back to the stage, but that probably wont happen in the first place due to the cg escape.

No Falco wit a brain will try to do that to a Kirby. 'Kirby is too floaty and wouldn't be hit by the Dair.
Instead a
Dthrow~Dash attack~Usmash is better.

-- imo kirby has a big advantage. if not, at least a little bit of an advantage, but not a disadvantage like posted. otherwise
Great Chart

In what land?
This was argued a long time ago and was shown to be proven as crappy means.
Falco does NOT revolve around his grabgame, he has a good number of means for racking up damage, and killing.

And you missed other points

 

[Adapt]

except almost all of Zelda's moves will outrange and outprioritize all of those.

but they are all slower, by far. Snakeee on the ZSS boards has Zelda as a 6-4 advantage for ZSS. I'm pretty sure he plays NinjaLink a lot, (who plays Zelda or used to at least) so I will take his word on the matchup.

I tend to think of the matchup as even personally, and I play both ZSS and Zelda

 

[omegablackmage]

your probably going to need to change marth to a neutral matchup for gw, and diddy to at least a neutral, maybe a disadvantage.

 

[Snakeee]

Adapt NL still plays Zelda, and I also play Ryoko a bit. ZSS beats Zelda range wise with Forward B and Down Smash. The other moves that were mentioned beat Zelda speed wise (except maybe Zelda's D-Smash but nothings faster than a ZSS jab)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Adapt NL still plays Zelda, and I also play Ryoko a bit. ZSS beats Zelda range wise with Forward B and Down Smash. The other moves that were mentioned beat Zelda speed wise (except maybe Zelda's D-Smash but nothings faster than a ZSS jab)

what's ZSS got approach wise though?

and doesn't she have a much harder time KOing Zelda than visa versa?

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

what's ZSS got approach wise though?

and doesn't she have a much harder time KOing Zelda than visa versa?

I would think that Zamus' combination of running speed and raw range on the Tether, Side B and DownSmash would open opportunities to strike. It also helps that Side-B can be used airborne, increasing spacing control and thus the ability to hit Zelda whilst not being hit.

KOing... its probably in Zelda's favour. However, I think that Zamus' ability to rack damage on a successful approach negates that.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I would think that Zamus' combination of running speed and raw range on the Tether, Side B and DownSmash would open opportunities to strike. It also helps that Side-B can be used airborne, increasing spacing control and thus the ability to hit Zelda whilst not being hit.

KOing... its probably in Zelda's favour. However, I think that Zamus' ability to rack damage on a successful approach negates that.

Iunno... she can't really dash into a dsmash, and it takes mindgames to connect with a dashing sideB, and her running speed is good... but what can she do out of it? if she;s dashing at you, you can counter with just about anything as Zelda and outprioritize ZSS's incoming attack She could try to shield and grab... but ZSS's grab is AWFUL if she whiffs.... coming in from the air doesn't seem like a great idea either because of Zelda's dominance over air-to-ground games for most charcters.

 

[DanGR]

I haven't been here in a while, but I'm surprised that Olimar's matchups are quite accurate. I suggest changing Olimar v DK to neutral and Olimar v IC to neutral though. There is a general concensus among both DK and Olimar mains alike that it's neutral. Olimar v IC was agreed on by the Olimar boards. I'm not sure what the IC boards think though.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185014

Edit: I found the most recent IC matchup thread I could find. They say it's even as well: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162441

 

[MK26]

Yeah and how long do you plan to duck?
Ducking does nothing Falco can keep SDLing and harass you with his Dair.

That's when you shieldgrab. And ducking actually does something. It dodges lazers. And Falco's reflector. That's both of Falco's ranged moves. How long do you plan to stand on the other side of Final D shooting silent lazers that wont hit? Oh, you want to phantasm? Kirby's D-tilt outprioritizes that and damages Falco (and trips him, too). U-smash? the attacks cancel. Same with F-smash, D-smash, down-angled F-tilt, and D-tilt (Regularly angled F-tilt and U-tilt miss). Kirby's D-tilt outranges Falco's jab. So as far as I'm concerned, there go all of your ground moves. Except Firebird. I plan to duck as long as it takes for you to give up and jump.

True but it is difficult to do so.

Difficult to what? Inhale? Cuz its definitely not difficult for Kirby to short hop TRIPLE laser

True but Falco has other means of racking damage and doesn't really need the CG.

So does Kirby. He doesnt need his 51% chaingrab on Falco either. Second swing aerial hammer kills Falco outright at something like 100% at the middle of Final D, and Falco can't even recover once he's at 85%.

No Falco wit a brain will try to do that to a Kirby. 'Kirby is too floaty and wouldn't be hit by the Dair.
Instead a
Dthrow~Dash attack~Usmash is better.

Good point. What percentages does this work until?

In what land?
This was argued a long time ago and was shown to be proven as crappy means.
Falco does NOT revolve around his grabgame, he has a good number of means for racking up damage, and killing.

Again, so does Kirby.

And you missed other points

Like what?

Point is, Kirby does not have a disadvantage against Falco. Kirby boards recently decreed the match neutral. Ill try to find the link for the thread now.

Edit: Here you go.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176103

 

[fredymartinez1]

I Think we need to change more of PT's info........ because Charizard can be an = to kirb .....

 

[MK26]

Expound plox

 

[ShadowLink84]

That's when you shieldgrab.

So you are going to let Falco harass you with lasers and limit what you can do and shield grab his Dair? Considering you are already ducking he can overshoot the Dair and ensue he ends up behind you so that its more difficult for you to grab him.

And ducking actually does something. It dodges lazers. And Falco's reflector. That's both of Falco's ranged moves. How long do you plan to stand on the other side of Final D shooting silent lazers that wont hit?

Again the point of ranged attacks aren't necessarily to hurt, They are to bait, to force the opponent closer or allow Falco the ability to approach. COnsidering he can approach and you cannot do a **** thing its rather funny.

Oh, you want to phantasm? Kirby's D-tilt outprioritizes that and damages Falco (and trips him, too).

So a Kirby will have the most epic timing and actually hit Falco out of his phantasm let alone predict when it comes out?
Let alone the fact it is rarely used on ground.

U-smash? the attacks cancel.

At which point you are upclose where Falco can use his Utilt. Woopee.

Same with F-smash, D-smash, down-angled F-tilt, and D-tilt (Regularly angled F-tilt and U-tilt miss).

COnsidering thats a large number of things to be looking out for I don't think its as simple as you make it sound.
Not only that you also have his Dair, Nair to look out for which he can use to bait a reaction and then punish. let alone the fact he can just grab you.

Kirby's D-tilt outranges Falco's jab. So as far as I'm concerned, there go all of your ground moves. Except Firebird. I plan to duck as long as it takes for you to give up and jump.

here is the situation.
Falco is lasering.
you are ducking.

The only thing you can do is Dtilt while ducking.
Falco has all these options that he can perform meanwhile all you can do is stand up or D tilt.
Half of the things you listed are not going to happen.

You Usmash, they clank and I jab and cancel any other move that you are going to do and avoid getting hurt. Or I can harass you with a Dair and make sure i end up behind you so that you cannot grab me.

When in sucha position even if Falco is forced to approach he still has a large number of options that he can use, unless you are extremely good at predicting what your opponent is going to do I really doubt your plan is going to work.

Difficult to what? Inhale? Cuz its definitely not difficult for Kirby to short hop TRIPLE laser

Apparently I speak a different language. Yes its difficult to inhale Falco considering he can maintain his distance.

So does Kirby. He doesn't need his 51% chaingrab on Falco either. Second swing aerial hammer kills Falco outright at something like 100% at the middle of Final D, and Falco can't even recover once he's at 85%.

True but considering Falco is more adept at poking Kirby than Kirby is at poking Falco who do you think will be get to the percentage in which they will be KO'ed first?
Considering that DI is much better Falco WILL live up to at least 110% and landing that hammer on anyone is quite difficult especially considering that Falco isn't going to be close to Kirby most of the time.

Good point. What percentages does this work until?

I am not too sure I would have to test it. I think around 30 or so.

Again, so does Kirby.

Except that most of his means of racking up damage involve getting close to Falco.
That would mean Kirby APPROACHING Falco and considering Falco has that laser and reflector as well as his other moves it will be difficult.

Like what?

Point is, Kirby does not have a disadvantage against Falco. Kirby boards recently decreed the match neutral. Ill try to find the link for the thread now.

Edit: Here you go.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176103

Thats nice and all that the Kirby boards decided something but if the Falco boards disagree then I am not going to say, oh well its neutral cause all of the kirby's said so.

Other than ducking to avoid the lasers does Kirby have any method of poking Falco from afar?
yeah he can deal with Falco upclose but once Falco plays defensively I do not see how Kirby will deal with it.

If he ducks he leaves himself open to getting pressured where Falco will have a large number of options to pick from most of which are quite safe.

 

[NinjaLink]

Um anything someone wanted to ask me. I see my name alot in here lol

 

[Keoki]

In what land?
This was argued a long time ago and was shown to be proven as crappy means.
Falco does NOT revolve around his grabgame, he has a good number of means for racking up damage, and killing.

And you missed other points

whoa, i guess i was completely wrong sorry for my stupidity i was just posting what i thought was right and i was just trying to help

 

[ShadowLink84]

Um anything someone wanted to ask me. I see my name alot in here lol

Details on Diddy's matchups please?

*ish curious*

 

[chewyy]

Looking at the chart, you go vertically for captain falcon right?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Its left to right

 

[chewyy]

I wasn't serious but okay.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I wasn't too sure if you were kidding or not earlier so I decided to just answer with a serious note.

 

[Tenki]

no johns.






-------

on a serious note, what's the consensus on Diddy and MK? :d

I'd laugh if Diddy took MK as a neutral/slight advantage and DK took Snake as a neutral/slight advantage.

XD

 

[ShadowLink84]

DK/Diddy combo FTMFW!

 

[DanGR]

Seriously? One of the best diddy players happen to beat M2K, so he's a counter? If I beat M2K with Olimar once would that mean Olimar is a counter?

 

[Al_Di_Medola]

...Wario is not = DDD
-_-
DDD>>> Wario.

 

[Tenki]

Seriously? One of the best diddy players happen to beat M2K, so he's a counter? If I beat M2K with Olimar once would that mean Olimar is a counter?

nop. a close win doesn't mean it's a hard counter .__.;

I don't know/haven't searched for vids of a Diddy vs MK fight, so maybe he capitalized on different move vs move aspects of the matchup? Also, I think he beat Azen's MK, too.

actually i only brought it up because i was spamming ;D

 

[NinjaLink]

I never lost to an MK at ESTICLE. Hes not a counter. I just know the matchup really well. Also someone change that diddy vs luigi. Diddy doesnt have an advantage. Falco HUGE advantage over diddy. I've done diddy vs ice climbers.......that was stupid. U basically just cant grab them just banana to dash attack.