Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[gojira345]

Yeah, I think the reason we've had a hard time finding counters for

MK

Snake

Mr. Game and Watch

Is because lower tier characters are knocked out by THEIR counterpicks in the first couple of rounds, and that the original maker of the thing has little experience with those characters.

Also, alot of good characters seem bad right now cause they are underplayed and not played to full potential at the same time. Remember Ganon and CF in melee?

PT Squirtle is a good example, as the light little monkey is hard to hit, and can often stall a match and poke you to death.

Plus, that are top tier have moves that define them, such as GAW's turtle? How about Rocksmash, bullet seed and etc. for other low tier characters that don't have a big following? How much have they been tested?

It's a shame we may never know, as people tend to shy away from trying these characters out against other top tiers, or that such players get knocked out in the first couple of rounds by someone else.

Lets say it's found that MK is slightly countered by Link. If all the Link players are knocked out in the first rounds by DK's and Marths, how would we ever know?

That's a problem.

 

[Blistering Speed]

ROB does NOT have an advantage over MK. List as many reasons as you want on paper, but most people discussing MK do not realise just how flawless a character he is and because of this, is uncounterable. His speed, range, priority and lack of lag will give any character too much trouble to be at an advantage. I could MAYBE say the matchup is even, but even that is pushing it.

 

[Weruop]

imo peach ahs advantage over olimar, and olimar has advantage on snake

 

[gojira345]

ROB does NOT have an advantage over MK. List as many reasons as you want on paper, but most people discussing MK do not realise just how flawless a character he is and because of this, is uncounterable. His speed, range, priority and lack of lag will give any character too much trouble to be at an advantage. I could MAYBE say the matchup is even, but even that is pushing it.

Chill dude, I said at least even, and just cause he looks broken now doesn't necessarily mean he is. Character's with counter, characters with both range and speed give him trouble , though not necessarily alot. It'd break my heart for him to be so broken, but, I think the metagame AGAINST him hasn't grown so much due to not many characters facing him in the final rounds.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Why should there be?
MK is the only character who can claim has automatic L canceling. O_O

 

[Cubes]

Metaknight is in NO way flawless. And people make the argument that lower tiers that counter MK, Snake, get knocked out early. Thing is, people who main other top tier characters (Marth, GnW, Falco, etc.), if they really want to, can use the lower tiers as their secondary/counter-pick. But unless that person is a HARD counter, not slight, than a person is better off using their main unless Metaknight is a hard counter to you.

Can we get back to match-up discussion? If you still want to talk about this, talk about Metaknight's match-ups.

 

[Browny]

I think MK has it on ROB quite nicely... in a recent wifi tourney i had all my mains completely shut down by a camping ROB user beforehand, i practiced MK for literally 2 hours before the match, watched some videos and won quite comfortably without any experience whatsoever with MK in a 1vs1 situation before. If anyone has an easy time vs ROB, its MK imo. my G&W and snake got completely shut down. If that was all it took for me to beat a ROB user (who knew all about glide tossing, ledge camping etc so it wasnt a nub) I cant see how on earth ROB could possibly have an advantage, especially when the idea of matchups involves how a lesser skilled player could beat a more skilled player in the matchup

 

[gojira345]

Yeah, IMO you were probably just more skilled.

Look at the matchup chart for TL, ROB, MK, GW, and Snake.

Ridiculous.

And Ganon has to have the advantage on SOMEBODY. Jesus.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

it's not that he's slow at updating the chart... it's that he's too stubborn to <_<

despite all of the decisions about Zelda vs. ness.... nothing

 

[adumbrodeus]

Metaknight is in NO way flawless. And people make the argument that lower tiers that counter MK, Snake, get knocked out early. Thing is, people who main other top tier characters (Marth, GnW, Falco, etc.), if they really want to, can use the lower tiers as their secondary/counter-pick. But unless that person is a HARD counter, not slight, than a person is better off using their main unless Metaknight is a hard counter to you.

Can we get back to match-up discussion? If you still want to talk about this, talk about Metaknight's match-ups.

What you said is essentially the reason why Snake and MK seem like they have much fewer bad match-ups then they do.

Slight advantages like pika vs. Snake just tend to get eliminated to early to be a threat.


This is much more pronounced an effect for snake then MK actually, because MK tends to function as a field-clearer for the vast majority of the cast because he's a "pick up and play" character and he seems to have advantages against more of the cast. The only concrete disadvantage besides snake I can think of is DK... who gets destroyed by DDD, hard-counter style.

However, because MK eliminates everyone else, snake's advantage against MK is crucial, resulting in Snake winning most tournaments.

If MK were removed, I think Snake would lose top standing.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Hmm, I dont see how Wario>DK. It seems like a neutral matchup to me; DK out ranges Wario, Wario has a better air game, DK gimps Wario comfortably, Wario has quicker kill moves ect.

 

[Nintendevil]

Hmm, I dont see how Wario>DK. It seems like a neutral matchup to me; DK out ranges Wario, Wario has a better air game, DK gimps Wario comfortably, Wario has quicker kill moves ect.

wow that's a good one...


I'de say DK wins in recovery and ground game, while Wario wins with air game and grabs. I think and equal matchup is just.

 

[Nestec]

it's not that he's slow at updating the chart... it's that he's too stubborn to <_<

despite all of the decisions about Zelda vs. ness.... nothing

Yeah, he even says in the first post that his personal experience/opinion comes first when looking at a specific match-up... X_x

 

[Ripple]

Hmm, I dont see how Wario>DK. It seems like a neutral matchup to me; DK out ranges Wario, Wario has a better air game, DK gimps Wario comfortably, Wario has quicker kill moves ect.

sorry but no, wario>DK.

here are a few more that should be changed with DK
Fox>>>>>>DK (dair combo destroys DK)
Falco=DK (Falco can not finish DK whatsoever)
DK>ivysaur (grab>cargo>walk off>>throw>edge guard)

 

[Blue sHell]

I actually agree that Wario = DK is more reasonable now in days. Sure Wario has some pretty funny combos on DK(rising dair > fair > bite> boost smash) but DK has an extra perk with his grab release to upsmash for a surprise kill. It's not so easy to catch the little fatman to grab often though. It's also a very fun/balanced matchup. One of my favorites.

EDIT: Ripple, when Verizon stops being a bunch of ****rags we should play sometime.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah Wario = DK

I also think that Wolf > Wario (Wolf outranges him on the ground + blaster, in the air Wolfs bair outranges Wario again)...just maybe...

Some other stuff:

Kirby = Falco
Fox >>>>>>>> Bowser
Marth = ROB?

 

[Blue sHell]

I also think that Wolf > Wario (Wolf outranges him on the ground + blaster, in the air Wolfs bair outranges Wario again)...just maybe...

Everyone out ranges Wario

And Wario could bite every single one of Wolf's attacks minus backair. Every single one. Warios should be using 9 billion bites per battles vs offensive Wolves. Wolfs backair keep away is very nice making the match more on the even side, but the Wolf boards and Wario boards both agree that Wario has a slight upper hand in the matchup.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Everyone out ranges Wario

And Wario could bite every single one of Wolf's attacks minus backair. Every single one. Warios should be using 9 billion bites per battles vs offensive Wolves. Wolfs backair keep away is very nice making the match more on the even side, but the Wolf boards and Wario boards both agree that Wario has a slight upper hand in the matchup.

Can't see why though...I agree, that I lack experience vs Wolf but on the paper wolf seems to have the advantage...to me at least but perhaps im just biased

 

[Browny]

i thought we were beyond this 'on paper' phase...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

i thought we were beyond this 'on paper' phase...

not for some people I guess <_<

though experience only goes so far too unless you are a pro and playing against other pros.

 

[popsofctown]

What you said is essentially the reason why Snake and MK seem like they have much fewer bad match-ups then they do.

Slight advantages like pika vs. Snake just tend to get eliminated to early to be a threat.


This is much more pronounced an effect for snake then MK actually, because MK tends to function as a field-clearer for the vast majority of the cast because he's a "pick up and play" character and he seems to have advantages against more of the cast. The only concrete disadvantage besides snake I can think of is DK... who gets destroyed by DDD, hard-counter style.

However, because MK eliminates everyone else, snake's advantage against MK is crucial, resulting in Snake winning most tournaments.

If MK were removed, I think Snake would lose top standing.

This is a very intelligent and perceptive post. I personally think Snake and DK have a good advantage at lower levels of play, but begin to lose it at higher levels of play. Either way, Snake's high position is high because of MK.

 

[Greenstreet]

This is a very intelligent and perceptive post. I personally think Snake and DK have a good advantage at lower levels of play, but begin to lose it at higher levels of play. Either way, Snake's high position is high because of MK.

wow i really like how these posts were put together. logical arguments. i had never thought of snakes advantage in this way. makes u think about tourney results differently..

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

wow i really like how these posts were put together. logical arguments. i had never thought of snakes advantage in this way. makes u think about tourney results differently..

could Expain DDD's placement as well? He's got a LOT of bad matchups.... but I don't know how many of them he's really going to ever see. I know Zelda, my main, counters him pretty comfortably, and does well against MK too.... but snakes, marths and G&Ws can just give Zelda too many problems before she even gets to fight him... and it's really sad because those are about the only charcters who can really give Zelda problems.. and they are ALL highly used.

Yeah, he even says in the first post that his personal experience/opinion comes first when looking at a specific match-up... X_x

it literally took MONTHS of shoving "Not only over 90% of the sonic, but also the Olimar mains agree there's no way Olimar has the advantage in the matchup... it's probably even"

But he and DanGR teamed up as the ONLY ones against it, and until the entire thread was hijacked with every player worth his salt saying how wrong Ivan was did he change it.

 

[Bwett]

Is it just me or does the chart in serious need of revamping? lol

 

[adumbrodeus]

This is a very intelligent and perceptive post. I personally think Snake and DK have a good advantage at lower levels of play, but begin to lose it at higher levels of play. Either way, Snake's high position is high because of MK.

Actually... true. The Mk community doesn't seem as open to abusing character advantages as other characters, which is the reason the infinite dimensional cape hasn't seen anywhere near the amount of play it should IMO.

If MK wouldn't, in the words of Emblem Lord, jump into the **** against DK and Snake it would almost definitely be a 60-40 advantage.

could Expain DDD's placement as well? He's got a LOT of bad matchups.... but I don't know how many of them he's really going to ever see. I know Zelda, my main, counters him pretty comfortably, and does well against MK too.... but snakes, marths and G&Ws can just give Zelda too many problems before she even gets to fight him... and it's really sad because those are about the only charcters who can really give Zelda problems.. and they are ALL highly used.

Almost definitely, the bad match-ups he has tend to be eliminated too early to actually stop him from playing well. Tough luck if he goes against a Zelda main first round though.

To a great degree, I think this explains a lot of relatively powerful character's problems getting tournament results as well *cough cough* Toon Link *cough cough*

 

[~ Gheb ~]

In other words: If MK wasn't so broken/not in the game, Snake wouldn't be used that often as well?

 

[adumbrodeus]

In other words: If MK wasn't so broken/not in the game, Snake wouldn't be used that often as well?

Yep... or if MK abused his advantages in the match-up.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I see the point. If MK wasn't overused anymore, people would dare to use other characters than Snake. Eventually it'll turn out that Snake =/= god and that he doesn't fancy facing ROB, DK, Pikachu, Olimar, Toon Link, Wario and the Spacies.

 

[ShadowLink84]

indeed but with the looks of things MK won't be getting banned anytime soon.
maybe a soft ban but thats not going to happen either.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It perhaps won't happen. If it's for the sake of fairness, I'm not against it though...

 

[Ripple]

I actually agree that Wario = DK is more reasonable now in days. Sure Wario has some pretty funny combos on DK(rising dair > fair > bite> boost smash) but DK has an extra perk with his grab release to upsmash for a surprise kill. It's not so easy to catch the little fatman to grab often though. It's also a very fun/balanced matchup. One of my favorites.

EDIT: Ripple, when Verizon stops being a bunch of ****rags we should play sometime.

online or IRL, online I'm guessing

This is a very intelligent and perceptive post. I personally think Snake and DK have a good advantage at lower levels of play, but begin to lose it at higher levels of play. Either way, Snake's high position is high because of MK.

this is always how things seem. at higher levels of play people seem even but the out come will usually be ,who has the advantage,wins. If you got me to play lets say the best Fox, the game would be close but he would always win, because Fox>>>>>>DK

 

[DanGR]

it literally took MONTHS of shoving "Not only over 90% of the sonic, but also the Olimar mains agree there's no way Olimar has the advantage in the matchup... it's probably even"

But he and DanGR teamed up as the ONLY ones against it, and until the entire thread was hijacked with every player worth his salt saying how wrong Ivan was did he change it.

I've conceded Sonic v Olimar being neutral simply b/c the olimar boards agree with it, but I haven't bothered posting b/c ivan won't even update the freakin chart.

Oh, and why do you hate my guts sonic? peace please?

 

[gehaga]

I belive this to be remotely acurate, the only thing I find to be weird is the over use of the big check, it should only be used if there is no doubt over the superiority over the other character

 

[Cadelaf]

Isn't kirby counter of snake?

 

[ShadowLink84]

I've conceded Sonic v Olimar being neutral simply b/c the olimar boards agree with it, but I haven't bothered posting b/c ivan won't even update the freakin chart.

Oh, and why do you hate my guts sonic? peace please?

might I ask why you believe it isn't neutral?

 

[gojira345]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=184424&page=2


Olimar vs MK. Very interesting.

But yeah, to the guy talking about the counterpicks getting knocked out, just like I said, I think that's it.

I mean, how would we ever, EVER know that Ganondorf hard counters Snake or MK if he goes up against DDD or Fox first?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Actually... true. The Mk community doesn't seem as open to abusing character advantages as other characters, which is the reason the infinite dimensional cape hasn't seen anywhere near the amount of play it should IMO.

If MK wouldn't, in the words of Emblem Lord, jump into the **** against DK and Snake it would almost definitely be a 60-40 advantage.



Almost definitely, the bad match-ups he has tend to be eliminated too early to actually stop him from playing well. Tough luck if he goes against a Zelda main first round though.

To a great degree, I think this explains a lot of relatively powerful character's problems getting tournament results as well *cough cough* Toon Link *cough cough*

I think this whole line of conversation is brilliant and is rather being wasted here in the dismal corridors of the matchup thread... perhaps a relocation in a new thread which contains all of the conversation ahd so far would be favourable?

I've conceded Sonic v Olimar being neutral simply b/c the olimar boards agree with it, but I haven't bothered posting b/c ivan won't even update the freakin chart.

Oh, and why do you hate my guts sonic? peace please?

I do not hate your guts... I hate that you erroniously post against Zelda at almost every jucture that you have the opportunity to... Hell I remember you even said "ganondorf has the advatage against Zelda because he can outcamp her" which is sheer lunacy.

 

[Goodstyle]

Wario matchup vs DDD should be a big X im afraid. Wario is grabbed release attacked by DDD, so getting of a kill is easier said than done now. (grab, jab, Wario escapes, up tilt by DDD) (unfortunately, this works on most tall characters, such as DK and Snake)
Wario is also infinited by ZSS.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186521
(some research I did)

On the bright side, Yoshi's infinite on Wario is easy to escape

I disagree with Wario<Ice climbers, they only have a regular CG, they have weaker killers than average, and a below average recovery.

PS: Just trying to advance on your matchup topic. Poor Wario...

 

[Mmac]

On the bright side, Yoshi's infinite on Wario is easy to escape

It's not "Easy" to escape, you either get infinite, or not. Just Because an Infinite is hard to do, doesn't make it any less useful. It's all down to the person doing the infinite.

Theoretically speaking, that's like saying the Ice Climbers are easy to escape too because they might screw up.

If you're against a professional playing Yoshi (or ZSS too for that matter, she can do the same thing), then odds are, he's not going to screw up

 

[ShadowLink84]

It is a very real possbility.
Characters that do well against DDD do get knocked out early.