Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[adumbrodeus]

I think this whole line of conversation is brilliant and is rather being wasted here in the dismal corridors of the matchup thread... perhaps a relocation in a new thread which contains all of the conversation ahd so far would be favourable?

good idea, request a mod move the conversation so far or create a thread and reconstitute it from scratch?

I do not hate your guts... I hate that you erroniously post against Zelda at almost every jucture that you have the opportunity to... Hell I remember you even said "ganondorf has the advatage against Zelda because he can outcamp her" which is sheer lunacy.

Lol, Gannondorf outcamping anything, including the sandbag. That's an amusing though.

Still... *feels urge to punch Nintendo staffers for what they did to my secondary*

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

good idea, request a mod move the conversation so far or create a thread and reconstitute it from scratch?

you could probably just use a series of quotes to repost it ^^

Lol, Gannondorf outcamping anything, including the sandbag. That's an amusing though.

Still... *feels urge to punch Nintendo staffers for what they did to my secondary*

I know right? lol.... but, I mean, Jiggly was my MAIN and look at what they did to her <_<

 

[DanGR]

I do not hate your guts... I hate that you erroniously post against Zelda at almost every jucture that you have the opportunity to... Hell I remember you even said "ganondorf has the advatage against Zelda because he can outcamp her" which is sheer lunacy.

I never said that the reason ganon>zelda was b/c he can outcamp her. I had other better reasons as well. When I say Ganon can outcamp her, I meant it very loosely. I was just saying that Zelda's projectile is so bad that Ganon doesn't have to approach her if they're at the same percentage. He has no reason to. He does better on defense anyways. If you start up din's fire, he can just dash attack through it. Zelda doesn't have a projectile that'll pressure Ganon. Neither does.

 

[Brinzy]

Din's Fire can be used for more than approaching. It can be used to interrupt Ganon's recovery.

Regardless, I don't see how in the hell Ganon can be > Zelda.

 

[Tenki]

Din's Fire can be used for more than approaching. It can be used to interrupt Ganon's recovery.

Regardless, I don't see how in the hell Ganon can be > Zelda.

Doesn't Din's Fire have an upward trajectory? That helps Ganon more than it hurts, doesn't it?

Also, it's pretty simple to see how Ganon > Zelda. Play any Zelda game, and Link always has to save her and all she does is KS.

 

[popsofctown]

Ganon isn't greater than Zelda. Din's fire isn't very useful, but she doesn't need it to beat him.

 

[Sosuke]

I'm sorry can someone explain to me how Olimar is good against TL?
I'm honestly shocked.

 

[Brinzy]

Doesn't Din's Fire have an upward trajectory? That helps Ganon more than it hurts, doesn't it?

Also, it's pretty simple to see how Ganon > Zelda. Play any Zelda game, and Link always has to save her and all she does is KS.

If Ganon won't make it back, don't Din's. If he will, throw out a Din's and hope for more damage and less decay on Zelda's huge selection of killing moves. If he air-dodges, fine. The point is to hit him during his Up B for damage. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[popsofctown]

many times you can force a choice between Din's fire damage or an airdodge that will drop you to your death.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Doesn't Din's Fire have an upward trajectory? That helps Ganon more than it hurts, doesn't it?

Also, it's pretty simple to see how Ganon > Zelda. Play any Zelda game, and Link always has to save her and all she does is KS.

Depends on the situation, sometimes it's a stagespike. But generally it sets up Ganondorf to be in a position where Zelda can apply her superior airgame. Basically, it prevents Ganondorf from sweet-spotting the ledge.

And of course it's:

Ganondorf'sDamage++;
MoveDecay--;

I never said that the reason ganon>zelda was b/c he can outcamp her. I had other better reasons as well. When I say Ganon can outcamp her, I meant it very loosely. I was just saying that Zelda's projectile is so bad that Ganon doesn't have to approach her if they're at the same percentage. He has no reason to. He does better on defense anyways. If you start up din's fire, he can just dash attack through it. Zelda doesn't have a projectile that'll pressure Ganon. Neither does.

Not really, a good Zelda can bait the dash attack or clip Ganon outside of the hitbox of dash attack. Granted it's not exactly reliable it depends on mindgames, but even 1/16 attacks hitting still creates an approach incentive.


So, what are the rest of these reasons? Zelda and Ganondorf are both secondaries of mine and I find that Zelda has a pretty strong edge in this match-up.

 

[DanGR]

I'm sorry can someone explain to me how Olimar is good against TL?
I'm honestly shocked.

Olimar outcamps TL. TL is forced to approach. Olimar's defensive game>TL's offensive game. TL's arrows, bombs, and boomerang are canceled out by the pikmin. It's in your character's board's outdated matchup thread. There's been discussion of the matchup somewhere in there. Go look.

Not really, a good Zelda can bait the dash attack or clip Ganon outside of the hitbox of dash attack. Granted it's not exactly reliable it depends on mindgames, but even 1/16 attacks hitting still creates an approach incentive.

Zelda can't bait anything with din's if that's what you mean. Ganon(like every other character) can simply stand outside of Zelda's attack range.(excluding din's) If Zelda chooses to use din's, she gets a dash attack to the face. simple. If any character were to sit outside of her range, they don't have to approach-that is unless they're behind.

So, what are the rest of these reasons? Zelda and Ganondorf are both secondaries of mine and I find that Zelda has a pretty strong edge in this match-up.

I don't really care about this matchup. Ivan's not gonna change anything regardless of what I have to say. Clearly, everyone has an unstoppable bias against all the "bad" characters such as ganon, jiggs, yoshi, mario, and all them. I can bet you that 95% of the people that have been posting in here for the past two days haven't even played against a jiggs or ganon main yet. The way I see the Ganon v Zelda matchup is that Ganon doesn't necessarily have to approach Zelda, unless he's losing. I think that Zelda's defensive game>Ganon's offensive game and Ganon's defensive game>>Zelda's offensive game. Ganon has an easier time against Zelda in the air (I think Ganon's air game>Zelda's and Ganon's ground game>Zelda's aerial game) I see that as neutral. If you guys want to discuss it, by all means, go at it. I don't give a crud though. I'm gonna laugh though, whenever I hear a Zelda main lose to Sliq in-tourney.

 

[theONEjanitor]

Zelda doesn't have an offensive game.
She doesn't need one.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

zelda beats ganon. i have played a good ganon in the nyc weekly and since he was the first really good ganon i played he pulled out things i did not see coming but in the end ganon was just to slow and zelda's attack range and her ability to lightning kick ganon was just to much for ganon to take and i won the matches i played against this guy. zelda beats ganon.

wow 400th post look at how special i am

 

[DanGR]

Zelda doesn't have an offensive game.
She doesn't need one.

She does need one against Diddy, Falco, Fox, GaW, IC, DDD, Link, Lucario, Lucas, Luigi, Mario, Marth, Olimar, Peach, Pit, R.O.B., Samus, Sheik, Snake, TL, Wolf, and ZSS though.

 

[Brinzy]

How are you comparing a specific person who is great with a below-average character beating an anonymous Zelda to Ganon > Zelda? Besides, anyone who can do great with a subpar character would be smart enough to realize that just because THEY can beat a lot of people who have advantages doesn't mean said character has an advantage. That's just stupid.

Anyway, it's crazy to assume that if she Din's, she gets dashed to the face most of the time. If that happens, the Zelda was stupid to use Din's at that close range, and you also act like Zelda ONLY uses Din's to try and force an approach. Also, if they don't approach and if they don't have any projectiles to use from afar, then what are they doing? Hoping that the Zelda gets tired and then approaches? Yeah, only if Zelda is losing a match. Also, how do you believe that Ganon's ground game is better than Zelda's?

I love how you assume that virtually nobody here has played a Ganon before and therefore they totally underestimate what he can do... yet you're acting like all Zelda players let themselves get dash attacked whenever they use Din's.



Also, Zelda's approach isn't non-existent. It's not the greatest, but it's there. If it were not, then Zelda would not be able to beat most of those characters you have up there. FYI, some of those characters list Zelda as a disadvantageous to horrible matchup for their characters, so obviously she has something going for her which allows her to defeat others.

 

[DanGR]

I'm bored. I feel like debating, so here we go. Responses in green.

How are you comparing a specific person who is great with a below-average character beating an anonymous Zelda to Ganon > Zelda? Besides, anyone who can do great with a subpar character would be smart enough to realize that just because THEY can beat a lot of people who have advantages doesn't mean said character has an advantage. That's just stupid.
No-one recently said they beat a Zelda with Ganon. O_o You're right, it wouldn't matter anyways.

Anyway, it's crazy to assume that if she Din's, she gets dashed to the face most of the time. If that happens, the Zelda was stupid to use Din's at that close range, and you also act like Zelda ONLY uses Din's to try and force an approach.
You understand. If Zelda uses Din's she gets hit. That's basically my point. I'm saying that IF she uses din's she'll get punished. That's why you CAN'T say that ganon has to approach, b/c she won't use din's, her only ranged attack.
Also, if they don't approach and if they don't have any projectiles to use from afar, then what are they doing? Hoping that the Zelda gets tired and then approaches? Ummm...If Ganon is ahead, Zelda has to approach. If Zelda is ahead, Ganon has to approach. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, only if Zelda is losing a match. Also, how do you believe that Ganon's ground game is better than Zelda's?
I never said this.

I love how you assume that virtually nobody here has played a Ganon before and therefore they totally underestimate what he can do... yet you're acting like all Zelda players let themselves get dash attacked whenever they use Din's.
I am assuming the first. Why is it wrong to assume the latter???

I'm gonna make a video about all this din's stuff and how to "outcamp" it with every character. IF you use din's as a way to get me to approach, it will only get you hit. If you don't use it at all, I don't have any incentive to approach, unless I'm behind. I'm not saying that you have to use it. In fact, I'm saying you're smart if you don't use it to get me to approach.



Also, Zelda's approach isn't non-existent. It's not the greatest, but it's there. If it were not, then Zelda would not be able to beat most of those characters you have up there. FYI, some of those characters list Zelda as a disadvantageous to horrible matchup for their characters, so obviously she has something going for her which allows her to defeat others.

And have you seen what they try to do against her? They approach her, even if they don't have to. It's gross.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Zelda can't bait anything with din's if that's what you mean. Ganon(like every other character) can simply stand outside of Zelda's attack range.(excluding din's) If Zelda chooses to use din's, she gets a dash attack to the face. simple. If any character were to sit outside of her range, they don't have to approach-that is unless they're behind.

If Ganondorf does that, Jump backwards and ^b to reset the spacing. Then Din's fire. Repeat Ad infinitium, but vary the timing and the area you come out. From that range the start-up isn't stopable, and considering you have 16 points which you can come out, with a very wide range in between them, it's very unlikely that you'll get punished for it.

I don't really care about this matchup. Ivan's not gonna change anything regardless of what I have to say. Clearly, everyone has an unstoppable bias against all the "bad" characters such as ganon, jiggs, yoshi, mario, and all them. I can bet you that 95% of the people that have been posting in here for the past two days haven't even played against a jiggs or ganon main yet. The way I see the Ganon v Zelda matchup is that Ganon doesn't necessarily have to approach Zelda, unless he's losing. I think that Zelda's defensive game>Ganon's offensive game and Ganon's defensive game>>Zelda's offensive game. Ganon has an easier time against Zelda in the air (I think Ganon's air game>Zelda's and Ganon's ground game>Zelda's aerial game) I see that as neutral. If you guys want to discuss it, by all means, go at it. I don't give a crud though. I'm gonna laugh though, whenever I hear a Zelda main lose to Sliq in-tourney.

No, there's no bias here, I just insist that any advantages given to Ganondorf are actually advantages. I've beaten plenty of Zelda mains, but even with really good spacing this is a very difficult match-up, the kind that tells you if you win, that you're a lot better then your opponent.


And no, Ganondorf's offensive game is not stronger against Zelda's defensive game then Zelda's offensive game is against Ganondorf's defensive game. Ganondorf's offensive game is too punishable and lacks disjoined hitboxes. Zelda's INSANE priority just ***** it, if used properly.

Ganondorf just doesn't have that level of advantage, sure he can shield and counter a lot of stuff, but he can't openly break her attacks. Furthermore, her moves are far safer on block, which makes a difference because Ganondorf's moves tend to lag. Even his jab is punishable...

There's no way that Ganondorf has an easier time in the air. Generally his advantage is from above, but Zelda's uair has such a large disjointed hitbox that this advantage disappears. Zelda outranges both his fair and bair, with hers, and her nair has great priority. Ganondorf's uair ***** Zelda's dair however, and is probably better overall then Zelda's uair, but that's only one thing, and Zelda's ^b makes it difficult to stay above Zelda.

Pretty much same story with ground game, except Zelda has up-smash, uptilt, f-tilt, dtilt, etc, instead of aerials. Ganondorf's groundwork is universally punishable, whereas Zelda's is very difficult to punish unless improperly spaced.


And Sliq is just amazing, but him being amazing doesn't change the fact that Zelda has the advantage in the match-up. Individuals do not make up match-ups, characters do.

I am assuming the first. Why is it wrong to assume the latter???

Because you're totally off-base, as I said, Ganondorf is one of my secondaries. Heck, first game of brawl I played, I picked him.

Unless you're hiding the fact that you're a ganondorf secondary, I have little doubt that I know a great deal more about Ganondorf then you do, because I actually use the character, regularly.

Oh, yeah, her recovery options are just worlds better.

But you can definitely expect Ganondorf to successfully spike with more frequency, his dair better then Zelda's by an amazing margin.

I'm gonna make a video about all this din's stuff and how to "outcamp" it with every character. IF you use din's as a way to get me to approach, it will only get you hit. If you don't use it at all, I don't have any incentive to approach, unless I'm behind. I'm not saying that you have to use it. In fact, I'm saying you're smart if you don't use it to get me to approach.

Nice! More fodder for developing counters to your counters, I'll bring it to the Zelda boards immediately. Please and thank you.

Seriously though, when you're in safe range, why not use it? Furthermore Zelda has good range too, and options to move very easily, so maintaining a safe range isn't anywhere near as hard as you suggest.



Seriously though, you need to play more good Zeldas. This sounds like what people in the tri-state area were saying about Marth (and to an extent, still say).

 

[DanGR]

Sorry to blow this whole thing off, but tbh, I really don't care very much. You're right about most of the things you said, and I'm most likely wrong. I think I will go make that video I mentioned. I wasn't being sarcastic. >_>

Seriously though, you need to play more good Zeldas. This sounds like what people in the tri-state area were saying about Marth (and to an extent, still say).

I've three stocked every Zelda main I've been up against in tourney. I've played about 6 different ones so far. They place decently when I'm not up against them.(like 7th or 5th proving that they don't completely suck) Pops' Zelda(I play regularly) is very good compared to them, and it's sad to see people that don't know how to fight her. If I showed you a video of Pops' zelda against someone other than me, you'd be amazed.

Edit: I use various characters other than Ganon against Zelda, including Olimar.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Sorry to blow this whole thing off, but tbh, I really don't care very much. You're right about most of the things you said, and I'm most likely wrong. I think I will go make that video I mentioned. I wasn't being sarcastic. >_>

Neither was I, please and thank you.

I've three stocked every Zelda main I've been up against in tourney. I've played about 6 different ones so far. They place decently when I'm not up against them.(like 7th or 5th proving that they don't completely suck) Pops' Zelda(I play regularly) is very good compared to them, and it's sad to see people that don't know how to fight her. If I showed you a video of Pops' zelda against someone other than me, you'd be amazed.

Edit: I use various characters other than Ganon against Zelda, including Olimar.

I do believe that Olimar is generally considered one of Zelda's disadvantages. This also suggests that you're a rather good player yourself. Or, you specifically counter their playstyle and you need to play a more varied group of Zeldas.

That said... it doesn't necessarily reflect community expirience as a whole, and CERTAINLY doesn't mean that Zelda is at a disadvantage against every character in existence.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

bah most of what I've said has been said... but here's a few things:

-Shiek also completely destroys Gdorf when it comes to actually connecting with attacks... so as long as the Zelda is also a proficient shiek... say hello to 100% damage from shiek and a completely fresh Zelda moveset to fight each stock... and you'll probably not be putting too much damage on a smart shiek.

- Off the edge... if he's GOING to recover, add the free damage of din's when he can't airdodge... and if he's recovering high... you can din's from the edge of the stage when he gets near you, and then Usmash, Fsmash or Utilt him as soon as he come out of the airdoge... either that or he'll have to eat din's again.

 

[Morrigan]

DanGR, as an Olimar main, do you agree that Olimar > Peach?
Because if I recall right, there was this huge discussion pages ago where Peach/Olimar mains agreed that Peach > Olimar, yet the chart remained unchanged.

 

[DanGR]

Despite my personal experience against peach mains, yes, I'll agree that peach>olimar. If that's what both boards have agreed on. (and yes that's the case. Olimar boards recently)
So far, this is what we've got: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185014

 

[adumbrodeus]

Despite my personal experience against peach mains, yes, I'll agree that peach>olimar. If that's what both boards have agreed on. (and yes that's the case. Olimar boards recently)
So far, this is what we've got: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185014

I think it's more of a peach>>olimar then peach>Olimar.

Let me quote my earlier post to explain why:

Olimar can't shield-grab her because she can jab on landing quicker then he can grab, her bair outprioritizes every single move he has, she can approach via her over b which activates when she hits a pikman so it's completely safe if she uses it whenever he overbs.

Her dair also destroys any pikman technique unless the purple is used.

Did I mention her turnips OBLITERATES his recovery?


The match is an 80-20 at best, he has no offense against her, no defense against her if she uses safe techniques.

The entire match-up is an example of how to make a character that perfectly counters another. Sure, he can kill her early but if the peach plays safely none of his attacks should ever hit her.

 

[Morrigan]

Then what is IvanEva waiting for?

 

[Brinzy]

Probably not gonna change it because he thinks his personal experience and his limited knowledge >>>> everyone else's.

 

[Goodstyle]

It's not "Easy" to escape, you either get infinite, or not. Just Because an Infinite is hard to do, doesn't make it any less useful. It's all down to the person doing the infinite.

Theoretically speaking, that's like saying the Ice Climbers are easy to escape too because they might screw up.

If you're against a professional playing Yoshi (or ZSS too for that matter, she can do the same thing), then odds are, he's not going to screw up

Who would spend hours and hours practicing something so ridiculous as that!

 

[Nintendevil]

Who would spend hours and hours practicing something so ridiculous as that!

Doesn't take that long >_>

 

[pianodude700]

Is there a reason people are posting here still when we know Ivan isn't going to update anything?

It's great debate that warrants tons of changes that will never be made.

Idea: Can a respected poster/player please copy & paste this chart to their computers, update it according to this nice discussion, then make a new thread and update alphazealot's link in the tier discussion?

I understand this would take some time (time i don't have right now, not to mention no one would listen to me i'm not known lol) but it would definitely better the community

Thanks

 

[Black_Heretic]

Who would spend hours and hours practicing something so ridiculous as that!

And if its useful, people will learn it to give them another advantage in a matchup

 

[Tyros]

Am I to understand that this thread says that Ganondorf is the worst character in the game? He has nothing but x's, X's and ~'s. No checks.

- Tyros

 

[DanGR]

I think it's more of a peach>>olimar then peach>Olimar.

some agreed with that as well. ._.

 

[Nestec]

Hmm, Ness vs Zelda got updated...

 

[adumbrodeus]

some agreed with that as well. ._.

so wait... you agree or disagree?

If not, why not, cause it seems that the points are pretty iron-clad.

 

[IvanEva]

Probably not gonna change it because he thinks his personal experience and his limited knowledge >>>> everyone else's.

But that's the thing, EVERYBODY thinks that way. Yes, even you. If you made your own match-up chart would you have Ness >> Zelda because of that thread where the poster claimed that it was basically his easiest match-up? For all intents and purposes, this chart is a visual indication of what I've been lead to believe about the match-ups. Like tiers and other such stuff, everybody has their own opinion.

For plenty of match-ups I've been pursuaded by others, but just the same there are plenty more where I am simply not convinced.

1. Is there a reason people are posting here still when we know Ivan isn't going to update anything?

2. It's great debate that warrants tons of changes that will never be made.

3. Idea: Can a respected poster/player please copy & paste this chart to their computers, update it according to this nice discussion, then make a new thread and update alphazealot's link in the tier discussion?

1. I've been updating very sparringly since it's summer and I'd much rather be out frolicing than sitting in front of my computer (remember that I'm in Canada - summer is precious to us). However, I'm still updating things. Didn't I just update this thingy, like, a day or two ago?

2. What kind of changes are you talking about? Specific match-up ones? If a match-up advantage becomes clear to me I'll be changing it. What makes you think I wouldn't? While it might be full of errors, right now it looks fairly good to me. "Tons of changes" is a bit of an overstatement, no? (unless you're a Yoshi main )

3. I don't quite get the "update it according to this nice discussion" part. You have read the posts here right? There has been many good debates on certain match-ups with people posting solid arguments on either side. How would you update something if both sides cannont (as it usually the case) agree on a match-up? Would you not then simply fall back on your own experiences and such?

If anybody wishes to take over the chart (or quickly adapt it and make their own), permanently, give me a PM and I might just send you the Photoshop file and perhaps some help on how to do so. Personally, I'd recommend starting from scratch as mine is quite ugly (and I haven't worked on the Flash one in ages). In the end, the purpose of this chart is to help me to improve and to get a better understanding of the game as a whole.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Next Zelda things to look into:

Zelda Vs. Ice Climbers:
You have: =
I say: +
Reason: Zelda ouranges the icies, is VERY hard to grab which SEVERLY hampers their grab game... which marginalizes their gameplay entirely. Her large hitboxes quite easily mob both climbers... an outrange the rest of their attacks.... mobbing them can lead to easy seprarations and REALLY hampers them... it's just an awful matchup for them.

Zelda Vs. Peach
You have: +
I say: =
Reason: I've given my reasons for this one... hold out though... a lot of my fellow mains don't agree... maybe they haven't played skilled enough peaches or are reading her better than I?

Zelda Vs. Toon Link
You have: +
I say: =
Reason: I really can't see how Zelda significantly outplays or counters toon link... it's definitely one of the harder matchups I play... which leads me to believe it's even... could be wrong though.

Zelda Vs. ZSS
You have: =
I say: +
Reason: honestly... what does ZSS have here? Zelda outprioritizes, outpowers and even outWEIGHS (I think) ZSS. Quite simply... ZSS can;t kill Zelda NEAR as easily as she can be killed, and with Zelda's attacks, she even has a hard time getting inside to wrack up damage.




Now for Shiek.... right now, I'm just looking at space animals... bump them all up one...

Shiek Vs. Fox
You have: =
I say: +
Reason: Honstly, why not? Shiek tilt locks fox like none other... that's like... LOTS of free damage and it CAN combo into a KO.... like.... wow... and, even if it doesn't, it puts him at a high enough damage for Zelda to ****.... not like shiek suffers the matchup enough to force a swtich... shiek could comfortably stay out if desired... Zelda would just KO the freshly ***** fox more easily.

Shiek Vs. Falco:
You have: -
I say: =
Reason: Falco can chainthrow and edgeguard you, you can tilt lock and gimp him. He has all his tricks on you, you're ore gamplay is better... it's a REALLY gay matchup because you both counter each other so well.

Sheik Vs. Wolf:
You have: =
I say: +
Reason: Just like fox and falco, he's tilt lock fodder. Besides that, he's INCREDIBLY easy to combo.... you can't KO particularly easily, BUT you can wrack up the damage SIGNIFICANTLY making it a lot easier for you to KO than it otherwise might be.... besides you can edgehog him pretty well or switch to Zelda to KO.

 

[3GOD]

Zelda Vs. ZSS
You have: =
I say: +
Reason: honestly... what does ZSS have here? Zelda outprioritizes, outpowers and even outWEIGHS (I think) ZSS. Quite simply... ZSS can;t kill Zelda NEAR as easily as she can be killed, and with Zelda's attacks, she even has a hard time getting inside to wrack up damage.

I'm pretty sure the best place to be when fighting Zelda is in front of her, far enough away that she cannot really use her tilts, smashes, etc, but close enough that she cannot safely use Din's Fire. I believe that Zero Suit Samus loves this position because it's just about the exact same range as her Side-B. She WAY out ranges Zelda apart from Din's Fire - if Zero Suit Samus stays close enough, then any Din's Fire attempt will give a great opening to start Uair juggles. I seriously see this as slightly in ZSS's favor if anything.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'm pretty sure the best place to be when fighting Zelda is in front of her, far enough away that she cannot really use her tilts, smashes, etc, but close enough that she cannot safely use Din's Fire. I believe that Zero Suit Samus loves this position because it's just about the exact same range as her Side-B. She WAY out ranges Zelda apart from Din's Fire - if Zero Suit Samus stays close enough, then any Din's Fire attempt will give a great opening to start Uair juggles. I seriously see this as slightly in ZSS's favor if anything.

except that she only has 3 effective moves at this range:
Fsmash
Side B
Netral B

Neutral B is slow enough that it's EASILY reflected, making it a BAD idea for ZSS

Side B and Fsmash are both REALLY laggy and REALLY easy for Zelda to punish.... the way side B's hitboxes work, Zelda can atcuall dash THTOUGH the attack and land a dash attack and Fsmash can be shielded and THEN punished or attacked before it comes out with all it's lag... and other than that... most of her ground attacs are rather innefective... and even THOSE are clearly not absolute winners

 

[Tenki]

Neutral B is slow enough that it's EASILY reflected, making it a BAD idea for ZSS

but it also doesn't have alot of range. You can probably reflect it without it hitting ZSS, unless it's charged and Zelda is moving forward.

 

[DanGR]

so wait... you agree or disagree?

If not, why not, cause it seems that the points are pretty iron-clad.

I personally agree that it's Peach>Olimar, but I think Peach>>Olimar is a bit much. Most disagree with me though, so I can understand if you and Ivan want it to be that way. I've got no problem with it. The Olimar boards currently have the matchup as 65:35 Peach.

The reasons I think Peach>Olimar and not Peach>>Olimar is just b/c of Olimar's character traits. He's got SO much freakin range that even with all of Peach's approaches and ways to get off the pikmin, it can trouble Peach. This is IMO from personal experience. I'll admit it's hard, but there's ways around Peach's floating, her priority, and her gimping.

When I say range, I'm mostly talking about the disjointedness on his grab, fsmash, upsmash, and pikmin throw. Those alone are enough to keep most characters from having an advantage over him regardless of every other advantage they have over Olimar.

EVERYONE has priority over Olimar's pikmin attacks. They don't even have priority. Sonic has priority on his attacks. This is something we have to deal with every match. They way we get around these are his speed, quickness, the speed on his attacks, his mobility, WAC (his whistle SA), the range on his attacks, disjointedness, and his small size. Peach is no different from any other character, except that she can float, which can pose a problem. (and this is why people say Peach>Olimar) If she didn't have the float, it wouldn't be any different from any other matchup.

I'd rather not discuss the specifics why Peach>Olimar. I have some stuff that needs to get done tonight. Maybe later. I'll answer any other questions you have tomorrow.

 

[Mmac]

- _- why not update Yoshi's?