Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Shy Guy 86]

I never lost to an MK at ESTICLE. Hes not a counter. I just know the matchup really well. Also someone change that diddy vs luigi. Diddy doesnt have an advantage. Falco HUGE advantage over diddy. I've done diddy vs ice climbers.......that was stupid. U basically just cant grab them just banana to dash attack.

Falco ***** both Kongs?

Shouldn't Yoshi have an advantage over Wario due to his infinite release grab

 

[NinjaLink]

Yoshi DEFINITELY beats wario.

 

[CT Chia]

ninjalink should just make a new matchup guide himself lol, he knows all matchups

 

[NinjaLink]

Get outta here chibo LMAO j/k

 

[NinjaLink]

Just to add. Diddy counters PIKA SO HAAAAARDDDDDDD. HE has the longest trip animation so him touching a banana means death. All pika can do is spam the thunder jolt. That still doesnt help cause the diddy can barrel blast him from the thunderjolt.

To me its 80-20. I just saw some diddy lose to a pikachu at esticle. I WANTED TO CRY AND QUIT SMASH.

 

[Mmac]

He's not coming back >_>

 

[Nines~Tempest]

Question, probably been asked many times, but I"m sure all the match ups have:

What puts Lucario at a disadvantage to Marth? I mean, Marth is fast, has good range, tippers kill easily, but Lucario can combo his *** and is pretty good at gimping him... but idk really.

 

[Emblem Lord]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4954470

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176912&page=33

Read those to understand.

 

[Nines~Tempest]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4954470

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176912&page=33

Read those to understand.

OH lool, I didn't find the exported marth topic >_> Thanks. I guess it would be hard since Marth does mess up spacing... ah well.

 

[BoTastic!]

why does mario have a disadvantage to rob?

 

[gantrain05]

yes i agree falco is a HUGE counter to diddy, after playing diddy with my lucas, and peach, and fox, and toon link, which are all my mains, and then my friend comes in with a new falco main, been playin with him less than a week and totally pwns this diddy.

 

[Shy Guy 86]

If anyone who is active and knows the matchups well and can use photoshop decently(or actually make a chart) please take over this thread.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

once again,what about lucario v. ICs

it seems to be 6:4 lucario, but idk...

 

[doom dragon 105]

IKE >>>> metaknight

its been under debate but ike definitely has the advantage

ike out ranges him and overpowers him. with a keep away game you could beat a meta in tourneys ive beaten meta's like that

 

[ShadowLink84]

IKE >>>> metaknight

its been under debate but ike definitely has the advantage

He has an advantage against someone who can combo him, gimp him, attack after him and still hit Ike before Ike can hit him and he has an advantage?

Explain please since frankly if this is the idea that Ike mainers are coming to I am seriously thinking they are n00bs.

 

[Tenki]

Well, Ike definitely does outrange MK. Retreating F-air is pretty nice ;3
Eruption can be used to SAF+counterkill a MK since it's a vertical killer.

and... that's about it, from my standpoint.

`.`; offstage is trouble for Ike, and I'm not exactly sure how to break MK's momentum as an Ike, if he starts to play aggro+pressure on ya.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

IKE >>>> metaknight

its been under debate but ike definitely has the advantage

ike out ranges him and overpowers him. with a keep away game you could beat a meta in tourneys ive beaten meta's like that

Can you explain this one better?

 

[MysticKenji]

IKE >>>> metaknight

its been under debate but ike definitely has the advantage

lolwut

where was this debate?

 

[adumbrodeus]

IKE >>>> metaknight

its been under debate but ike definitely has the advantage

ike out ranges him and overpowers him. with a keep away game you could beat a meta in tourneys ive beaten meta's like that

NO!

GOD NO!

Sure MK doesn't outrange him, but MK still has a ton of safe attacks on Ike so he can approach freely, and Ike has NOTHING safe against MK.

Then he combos and gimps Ike. Over.

This is speaking as an Ike secondary, I know the match-up, it's not in Ike's favor, at all.

 

[zealotscout]

the chart looks good it must have taken a whole *** of time to get that data , but what interests me is the ike part, iwas shocked that all the characters that ike had a disadvantage with were characters i actually do have trouble facing lol .pritty good .

 

[Shady Penguin]

As an experienced Snake mainer, I say yes to the Meta Knight > Snake consideration.

Snake obviously trumps MK in strength and weight, but we all know that MK can juggle Snake six ways to Sunday.

I think if MK users follow two main policies, they shouldn't find Snake to be a particularly difficult match-up. The two policies are keeping the pressure on and trying to keep Snake airborne.

By constantly attacking Snake with MK's swift moves, you'll make Snake hard-pressed to set-up his traps or capitalize on his range advantage. One of the most important times for MK to be aggressive is when Snake is trying to recover. With a strong edge-guarding game, MK can easily rack-up damage upwards of 20% due to Snake's easily gimped up-b.

As for keeping Snake airborne, this is a rather obvious tactic due to MK being at his strongest in the air and Snake being at his weakest in the air.

Just to make it clear, I'm not making these points up as an excuse for losing to MK players, because I don't recall ever losing to one as Snake (Due to never facing an adept MK user).

 

[gantrain05]

well to the ike vs mk thing, i can see how ike could be decent against mk but he is definatley not a counter, i have friends who play both mk and ike and we all do go to tourneys and place well so we arent scrubs, but there are a few things ikey ike can do to mess up mk pretty good although i can't explain the matchup very well because i absolutely cannot play either character worth ****, i'll have to find some vids of my friends playin.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I was an Ike main, he is in no way having even a neutral matchup when facing MK.
MK has speed and the range difference is minimal.
Not only that he can combo Ike, gimp him etc etc.

Ike does not do well against MK at all.

 

[Browny]

Eh ike does ok. go and search youtbe for DMK vs Sethlons ike, thats a good match.

Besides ikes uair KO'ing MK at around 60%, MK has it pretty easy i think lol

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ike has a disadvantage in that match up. yes he has power and range but the issue is that he has no speed to put it to use.
By the time Ike uses a Fair MK has his out, even if MK attacks late he can still hit Ike first!

 

[NinjaLink]

Well i've done the matchup. And to be honest. Ike CAN win but u have to be on point. U cant be attacking like an idiot U have to learn patience. U also have alot of counter measures. If he does a glide attack, u can use eruption or counter. Best to use eruption when MK is at higher percent. Ur dair breaks his up-b so thats not much a problem. Another eruption instance as well. U outrange and out power him. U can win the fight as long as u dont get gimped.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The issue though is that MK isn't going to use his moves haphazardly and because he has very little issue approaching Ike.

Even if MK doesn't gimp Ike, the amount of damage he can rack up on Ike is greater and Ike really is limited in what he can or cannot do. PLaying defensively works best as is using the Nair and Fair for spacing. However its difficult because MK is much faster and is very capable at approaching.

Killing isn't a great issue for MK either since again, damage racking as well as the mostly horizontal knockback of his ^B.
Yes Ike has alot of moves that beat out MK's due to their power and range, but because MK will typically be within range to attack Ike, Ike really doesn't ahve the chance to put that range to effect.

 

[darkspatan117]

Good matchup chart IvanEva there still something to correct about some char but otherwise very good

 

[MK26]

So you are going to let Falco harass you with lasers and limit what you can do and shield grab his Dair? Considering you are already ducking he can overshoot the Dair and ensue he ends up behind you so that its more difficult for you to grab him.


Again the point of ranged attacks aren't necessarily to hurt, They are to bait, to force the opponent closer or allow Falco the ability to approach. COnsidering he can approach and you cannot do a **** thing its rather funny.

You gave 4 reasons for using ranged attacks. By ducking, Kirby avoids the first three. And you make it sound like ducking has lag... ever seen a Kirby crouch-taunting? Its not like I cant do anything, i just need to wait about 3 frames before I can.

So a Kirby will have the most epic timing and actually hit Falco out of his phantasm let alone predict when it comes out?
Let alone the fact it is rarely used on ground.

epic timing? dtilt has less startup lag than phantasm. see falco go into phantasm stance, press A. That simple.

At which point you are upclose where Falco can use his Utilt. Woopee.

both characters slide too far away for any followups unless one of them trips.

COnsidering thats a large number of things to be looking out for I don't think its as simple as you make it sound.
Not only that you also have his Dair, Nair to look out for which he can use to bait a reaction and then punish. let alone the fact he can just grab you.

Youre right It isnt too simple. You need very split-second timing. However, I'd just d-tilt Falco before he gets in grab range.

here is the situation.
Falco is lasering.
you are ducking.

The only thing you can do is Dtilt while ducking.
Falco has all these options that he can perform meanwhile all you can do is stand up or D tilt.
Half of the things you listed are not going to happen.

You Usmash, they clank and I jab and cancel any other move that you are going to do and avoid getting hurt. Or I can harass you with a Dair and make sure i end up behind you so that you cannot grab me.

When in sucha position even if Falco is forced to approach he still has a large number of options that he can use, unless you are extremely good at predicting what your opponent is going to do I really doubt your plan is going to work.

You dont seem to understand that Kirby has no lag on ducking. You're making it sound like I have to wait as long as the lag after Ike's f-smash to stand up. If I see you approaching, why would I continue to duck? Why not shield lazers until you get to me? Why not jump and approach aerially? Have you even touche upon Kirby's air game? Why not stop thinking hypothetical situations?

Apparently I speak a different language. Yes its difficult to inhale Falco considering he can maintain his distance.

OK, now I counterpick battlefield. now avoid my inhale. FD is Kirby's worst stage in this matchup, and it sounds like you're assuming we're playing there for all three matches of the set.

True but considering Falco is more adept at poking Kirby than Kirby is at poking Falco who do you think will be get to the percentage in which they will be KO'ed first?
Considering that DI is much better Falco WILL live up to at least 110% and landing that hammer on anyone is quite difficult especially considering that Falco isn't going to be close to Kirby most of the time.

opinion. And if you DI second swing hammer up, you die faster. You simply go really fast, really horizontally. DI down and you risk not making it back. And you forget that Kirby can gimp kill Falco like crazy. I chaingrab you, end the chain f-smashing you off the edge, and edgeguard you from there. Or I can be at high percents, hit you off, chase you, and Kirbycide to reset the stocks. Kirby's air game>Falco's air game.

I am not too sure I would have to test it. I think around 30 or so.

Except that most of his means of racking up damage involve getting close to Falco.
That would mean Kirby APPROACHING Falco and considering Falco has that laser and reflector as well as his other moves it will be difficult.

Well now that I'm ducking your lazers, Falco has to approach cuz the lazers and reflector dont hit. So now most of his means of racking up damage involve getting close to Kirby. And Kirby has other moves too, so it will be difficult to hit him too, right?

Thats nice and all that the Kirby boards decided something but if the Falco boards disagree then I am not going to say, oh well its neutral cause all of the kirby's said so.

Other than ducking to avoid the lasers does Kirby have any method of poking Falco from afar?
yeah he can deal with Falco upclose but once Falco plays defensively I do not see how Kirby will deal with it.

If he ducks he leaves himself open to getting pressured where Falco will have a large number of options to pick from most of which are quite safe.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172023

Right under Olimar. Bam. Both boards agree. Fight me now.

 

[lcampoy8]

I was an Ike main, he is in no way having even a neutral matchup when facing MK.
MK has speed and the range difference is minimal.
Not only that he can combo Ike, gimp him etc etc.

Ike does not do well against MK at all.

lol I agree

 

[ShadowLink84]

You gave 4 reasons for using ranged attacks. By ducking, Kirby avoids the first three. And you make it sound like ducking has lag... ever seen a Kirby crouch-taunting? Its not like I cant do anything, i just need to wait about 3 frames before I can.

Ugh you're missing the point.
by ducking you are limiting yourself. Yes Kirby can get up and crouch ridiculously fast, bt all you are doing is forcing a stalemate. At which point you and your opponent might as well stand still, and that still wouldn't prvent Falco from slowly putting pressure on you.

epic timing? dtilt has less startup lag than phantasm. see falco go into phantasm stance, press A. That simple.

Let's not take into account the fact that Falco can cancel the phantasm, hthe distance or actually when he will use it.
Just because it seems easy doesnt mean it is.
Similar to how people looka Yoshi's recovery and think hey I can gimp it, but actually doing it is something else.
Mainly since Kirby's Dtilt doesn't linger for long so the timing is more precise.

both characters slide too far away for any followups unless one of them trips.

I am not too sure but I think that Falco can Ftilt you after a clank or he can make an attempt with the Fsmash due to its range.
Either way he still can do more than you when you're moving from the D tilt.

Youre right It isnt too simple. You need very split-second timing. However, I'd just d-tilt Falco before he gets in grab range.

If Kirby Fsmashes I shield and grab him.
If Kirby inhales I'll laser him,.
Yes you can do it, but honestly you admitted it yourself, the timing is very precise and isn't something to rely upon.
That and you have to be good at predicting when he will grab rather than just go on seeing hte grab initiate.

You dont seem to understand that Kirby has no lag on ducking. You're making it sound like I have to wait as long as the lag after Ike's f-smash to stand up. If I see you approaching, why would I continue to duck? Why not shield lazers until you get to me? Why not jump and approach aerially? Have you even touche upon Kirby's air game? Why not stop thinking hypothetical situations?

Well considering the fact that you've been hinging on the whole ducking part I felt I had no need to touch on the air game unless necessary.

If you go for an aerial attack while I am approaching what is to stop me from using my laser or reflector? I can use my reflector and maintain my aerial DI making it much more difficult for you to approach me.
If you go higher that isn't an issue either because of Falco's jumping ability.
You can go aerially yes, but its going to be difficult because of Falco's abilities.
If it were that Kirby had the same speed as Jiggly, Yoshi, or Wario yes, an aerial approach would be much more effective, however a campy Falco would be difficult for Kirby to approach.

OK, now I counterpick battlefield. now avoid my inhale. FD is Kirby's worst stage in this matchup, and it sounds like you're assuming we're playing there for all three matches of the set.

How is counterpicking BF going to help?
I can easily continue my SHDL there there really is not a difference.

Falco really has no need to go beyond SH distance so picking BF doesn't really do as much.
In order fo you to inhale me you'd have to either approach me or I wuold have to approach you.
You aren't going to be inhaling Falco much because Falco can maintain the spacing more easily than Kirby.

opinion.

Its a fact. Look at Falco's pokes and Kirby's pokes. Can you honestly say that Kirby is on par with Falco's ability to poke at the opponent?

And if you DI second swing hammer up, you die faster. You simply go really fast, really horizontally. DI down and you risk not making it back. And you forget that Kirby can gimp kill Falco like crazy. I chaingrab you, end the chain f-smashing you off the edge, and edgeguard you from there. Or I can be at high percents, hit you off, chase you, and Kirbycide to reset the stocks. Kirby's air game>Falco's air game.

No one is disputing Kirby's airgame being better than Falco's.However the issue is that for you to land a CG on Falco or to get Falco off the stage is difficult. The majority of the time you'll be forced to approach because you cannot necessarily spend the game ducking Falco's lasers.

If it were a direct battle yes, Kirby would be capable of handling Falco but this is NOT going to happen. NOt Falco is going for air to air combat with Kirby, they will always remain outside of your range so that you are being forced to approach. At which point its much more difficult because Falco is forcing you to use this option or another.

Falco's spacing game is better than Kirby's as is his ranged and ground game. That is what makes it difficult fo Kirby. Since when Falco goes on the defensive, Kirby is going to have difficulty approaching.

Well now that I'm ducking your lazers, Falco has to approach cuz the lazers and reflector dont hit. So now most of his means of racking up damage involve getting close to Kirby. And Kirby has other moves too, so it will be difficult to hit him too, right?

No. Falco can just sit there lazering all day. all you've done is stick the match at a stalemate.
Falco doesn't have to do anything since he can laser and shine outside of your attack range and know you can do little about it.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172023

Right under Olimar. Bam. Both boards agree. Fight me now.

This is supposed to stop me how exactly?

Considering I have said Falco>Kirby OR Falco=kirby it means diddly squat.
Even then I would still have to say that Falco would have a slight advantage over Kirby because of his defensive game and how he forces Kirby's approach.

 

[Shök]

// Things to look into \/
Marth > Shiek?
Olimar > Snake?
Luigi > Shiek
Donkey Kong > Olimar?
Falco < Marth?
Metaknight > Snake?

IMO Marth>Shiek

but = or > Falco if he does >, only by a tiny tiny bit.

 

[Pyroloserkid]

This is my new favourite thread.

I'm definitely looking at this everytime I play competitively as a guideline.

 

[DanGR]

// Things to look into \/
Marth > Shiek?
Olimar > Snake?
Luigi > Shiek
Donkey Kong > Olimar?
Falco < Marth?
Metaknight > Snake?

IMO Marth>Shiek

but = or > Falco if he does >, only by a tiny tiny bit.

Olimar does have it over Snake, but doesn't lose to DK. The DK matchup is even imo.

 

[gantrain05]

// Things to look into \/
Marth > Shiek?
Olimar > Snake?
Luigi > Shiek
Donkey Kong > Olimar?
Falco < Marth?
Metaknight > Snake?

IMO Marth>Shiek

but = or > Falco if he does >, only by a tiny tiny bit.

yeah....both falco AND shiek have a pretty good advantage against marth, i don't know if u have ever played a very good falco or shiek, (maybe falco, but nobody plays shiek) so u don't really know this but...w/out all that fancy L-cancel and wavedashing, shiek just outshines marth in just about everything especially in attack speed and arial combat.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You are incorrect my good sir.

 

[NinjaLink]

marth beats sheik. the end

 

[Emblem Lord]

You are correct my good sir.

 

[NinjaLink]

Trust me i've done the matchup alot. Sheik doesnt have what it takes in this game to beat marth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You know who else doesn't have what it takes to beat Marth consistently?

Anyone not named MK, Snake and Dedede.