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Brawl Character Match-Up chart
- Thread starter IvanEva
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NinjaLink
Smash Master
Yea they do. Pika is already an official counter. The others do good.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
No one responded...
NinjaLink
Smash Master
Sorry bout that. I kinda agree on that match up. Both u mentioned.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I knew pika did... the others I wasn't sure about...
what about Falco, ZSS or shiek? they seem to fit the bill of being very fast with a projectile (though ZSS's is kinda... the worst of the three)
PhantomBrawler
Smash Apprentice
Well thats what we are discussing, in my personal experience i find taht falco would have the adv on snake.
NinjaLink
Smash Master
falco counters snake. Sheik just...ugh...tilts him to death. Zamus....hmm. She could gimp him. But her options are limited i guess in approach.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
yeah... honestly I hate fighting snake... but DANG shiek can wrack up the damage... maybe there's some trouble finishing off, but Zelda can normally pull through in a pinch.
my edits/comments in bold on the side for Pros.as for cuecax I'll try and take up where he left off (though IMO its neutral)
Advantage for Sonic:
+Can gimp Pit Pit with bad DI who somehow ends up under stage `.`; even though Sonic CAN gimp many characters under the stage, none of his attacks have an 'inescapable' low trajectory
+Can bypass pit's arrows with ease.
+grab game is better than pit's setting up for aerial chases, combos, tech chases. Like most characters, a continuously-aerial/jumping Pit is a pain in the butt because he avoids grabs while staying in his 'advantageous ground'
+Can chase Pit about like no bodies busness.
+Smashes outrange pit.
+has an amazing recovery
+Can reach pit when pit goes flying up high
+better taunts and a better voice. lol@u
+His Uair cannot be defeated by anything in Pit's aerial repertoire Thus, Pit can airdodge instead of uh... trying to beat it out
Cons:
-Cannot contend with Pit aerially to as great a degree 9though Pit's bair=sonic's bair in terms of speed.
-has less priority
-Has a hard time setting up kills
-Has slower smashes
-shield and side B stop committed approaches (but Pit cannot follow them up)
-Can have difficulty comboing due to Pit's rather small frame?
-overall attack speed is slower than pit's.
and stuff.
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as for Cons, those are enough to tip it into Pit's favor.
I understand the neutral feel, but the Pit players who were easier for me to beat/made it feel neutral were the ones who stayed on the ground.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
ba pet peeve why can't people just make heir comments. blargh.
Pit can't do the things to the same extent as say ario, yoshi or jigglypuff. His aerials have narrow hitboxes so despite having superiority priority he can't really put it to sue the way Luigi and Mk do.
not only that by sticking himself above Sonic he places him ata disadvantage.
not only can Sonic keep up with him aerially (Sonic is faster horizontally when pit is not gliding) but his ground speed lets him easily chase Pit.
Similar to ROB Sonic is very capable of pressuring Pit when he is off stage. You can get a gimp which isn't often but the whole point of it is to maintain pressure and constantly limit Pit's options and rack up damage. Even if you don't gimp him you can still force him high enough where you can Uair him safely so that even if he airdodges he can't do anything to you.
It is why Sonic does somewhat well against ROB. Despite ROB having an amazing recovery sonic is capable of constantly maintaining pressure and continuously increasing damage.
After airdodging Pit would have to be below Sonic to be at an advantage in the situation.
he would also have to be facing sonic so he can Fair or Nair but because of Sonic's superior aerial speed, that can be problematic since the nair lacks range and the fair has a narrow hitbox.
Concerning less priority Pit does not have a large amount of range and they do not cover a large enough area and thats aerially.
Ground wise none of his smash attacks do enough damage to actually out prioritize your moves.
Pit's smashes are faster but they lack good range.They won't hit you beyond jab length.
If pit does have an advantage it would be slight because despite having faster speed and priority, a good number of Pit's moves either lack range, or have narrow hitboxes.
I would have to say its neutral because Pit having greater speed, he lacks range and movement speed to put them to great use.
MK has lesser movement speed aerially than pit, but the range on his attacks more than make up for hit as well as how much area the cover.
i thinkit may be that you play a bit defensively against pit since i find that similar to ROB, being more offensive while risky has a bigger payoff and greater chance of success.
I disagree. Even if they are continuously using aerials and jumping about it shouldn't impede you.
Pit can't do the things to the same extent as say ario, yoshi or jigglypuff. His aerials have narrow hitboxes so despite having superiority priority he can't really put it to sue the way Luigi and Mk do.
not only that by sticking himself above Sonic he places him ata disadvantage.
not only can Sonic keep up with him aerially (Sonic is faster horizontally when pit is not gliding) but his ground speed lets him easily chase Pit.
The whole point isn't necessarily to gimp.
Similar to ROB Sonic is very capable of pressuring Pit when he is off stage. You can get a gimp which isn't often but the whole point of it is to maintain pressure and constantly limit Pit's options and rack up damage. Even if you don't gimp him you can still force him high enough where you can Uair him safely so that even if he airdodges he can't do anything to you.
It is why Sonic does somewhat well against ROB. Despite ROB having an amazing recovery sonic is capable of constantly maintaining pressure and continuously increasing damage.
And?
After airdodging Pit would have to be below Sonic to be at an advantage in the situation.
he would also have to be facing sonic so he can Fair or Nair but because of Sonic's superior aerial speed, that can be problematic since the nair lacks range and the fair has a narrow hitbox.
Concerning less priority Pit does not have a large amount of range and they do not cover a large enough area and thats aerially.
Ground wise none of his smash attacks do enough damage to actually out prioritize your moves.
Pit's smashes are faster but they lack good range.They won't hit you beyond jab length.
If pit does have an advantage it would be slight because despite having faster speed and priority, a good number of Pit's moves either lack range, or have narrow hitboxes.
I would have to say its neutral because Pit having greater speed, he lacks range and movement speed to put them to great use.
MK has lesser movement speed aerially than pit, but the range on his attacks more than make up for hit as well as how much area the cover.
i thinkit may be that you play a bit defensively against pit since i find that similar to ROB, being more offensive while risky has a bigger payoff and greater chance of success.
Bah, I play too aggressively on Pit.
Could be it.
I'm unable to test atm, but I'm pretty sure Pit's smashes have caught me out of moves a few times. I'll get back to you on that one. It could have been out of bad runs, lag, or something.
Sonic has superior maximum airspeed, but his acceleration is kind of low, which can sometimes be a problem against more manueverable characters.
I'm not sure if Pit is one of those more manueverable guys. I think Pit's N-air is a pretty good attack aura against Sonic too. I'll try these out another time and get back to you on it xD
I can settle for neutral, but I guess a good Pit can be an annoyance/advantageous to an aggressive Sonic ;_;
Could be it.
I'm unable to test atm, but I'm pretty sure Pit's smashes have caught me out of moves a few times. I'll get back to you on that one. It could have been out of bad runs, lag, or something.
Sonic has superior maximum airspeed, but his acceleration is kind of low, which can sometimes be a problem against more manueverable characters.
I'm not sure if Pit is one of those more manueverable guys. I think Pit's N-air is a pretty good attack aura against Sonic too. I'll try these out another time and get back to you on it xD
I can settle for neutral, but I guess a good Pit can be an annoyance/advantageous to an aggressive Sonic ;_;
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Well he can do it with his aerials but I am quite sure that none of his groundmoves can break the spincharge and dash.
Pit isn't very maneuverable. He may be more maneuverable but he doesn't really seem to be that way.
Nair is good but the issue is that it lacks coverage in front of him. It covers his body well and so its a good defensive move, but I am not too sure because I tend to remain below Pit
Maybe, I tend t play aggressively too maybe its the way that we are goign at it?
I tend to abuse non committed approaches so that I won't get caught in his attacks due to their lack luster range.
Greenstreet
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2008
- Messages
- 2,965
bout time a little more thought went into sonics matchups
DEV64
Smash Apprentice
i think falco should be a counter to MK falco can easily stop his MT with SHDL and its hard to get near him plus his CG can rack up easy damage the only thing MK has against him is being able to gimp his recovery(like every other char.)
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Falco cannot Cg MK easily due t MK's floaty nature. It would be like trying to Cg Kirby.Yeah you can do it once or twice, but nothing more afterwards.
KM has damage racking with a Dtilt lock, his aerial superiority over Falco. His range in terms of close combat. he can gimp, he can push falco off the edge easily with his moves. So no Falco isn't a clear advantage.
KM has damage racking with a Dtilt lock, his aerial superiority over Falco. His range in terms of close combat. he can gimp, he can push falco off the edge easily with his moves. So no Falco isn't a clear advantage.
NinjaLink
Smash Master
Um Falco DOES CG meta to like 40-50%. Meta knight is somewhat a fast faller not floaty. He doesnt have the same weight properties as kirby.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0bz4DFVsjs Proof in the video. 2:23
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Isnt is ^B capable of letting him escape early?
now even with the CG it can still be difficult because of KM's range on his attacks so grabbing him can be somewhat difficult.
I know you can use a silent laser~grab but I am unsure of how useful it is because of how MK can remain in the air for a good amount of time.
Afro Boy2000
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2007
- Messages
- 207
The public needs to know that Mario has the advantage on R.O.B.
It's like 65>35 Mario's favor.
It's like 65>35 Mario's favor.
NinjaLink
Smash Master
If the falco is perfect he cant escape. No u cant up-b. The fastest thing u can do is uair and that doesnt work either.
DEV64
Smash Apprentice
exactly i got CG easy by d4ba's falco and he pwned me with those annoying lasers i coundnt get near him d*mn!
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
hmm okay. However is it easy for Falco to land the CG?
Mainly sicne the thing thats so very annoying about MK is the range on his attacks so getting close for a grab can be difficult.
PhantomBrawler
Smash Apprentice
I play a very good mk on a frequent basis, and i can tell you that in no way is falco a counter to mk. At the VERY best its 55:45 mk's favor..if not more in his favor. Mk's ground game AND air game are superior to falco's....which makes this match-up a difficult one for falco. MK can be cg'd to 40-50% everytime using the walking cg, but it is difficult to get the grab and during the grab he can rack damage on falco using uair and nair(the grab has priority). So really cg'ing doesnt do much for falco against a good meta...it really only sets up a spike...which mk can recover from....
Its not a terrible match-up for falco, not like gw, but its not in his favor fo sho'.
Its not a terrible match-up for falco, not like gw, but its not in his favor fo sho'.
Clai
Smash Lord
Da-da-da
D. K.! Donkey Kong!
* He's the leader of the bunch. You know him well.
He's finally back to kick some tail!
[Break: 2 Measures, Monkey Yells](1)
His coconut gun can fire in spurts
If he shoots ya, [Monkey Yell] it's gonna hurt! (2)
He's bigger! faster! and stronger too!
He's the first member of the DK crew!
D. K.! Donkey Kong! HEY!
D. K.! Donkey Kong is here!
Sorry. It had to be done.
eyestrain92
Smash Journeyman
Ike having an advantage over Bowser? I'm sorry, I don't understand how you got that.
The reason Bowser has a disadvantage is primarily due to one of a few reasons:
a) He's slow
b) He's laggy
c) The opponent has disjointed hitboxes
d) The opponent has projectiles
You get the opponent capable of handling two, I'd call it even. But Bowser being outdone by someone with only one main Vs. Bowser advantage? I don't think so. Bowser punishes. He punishes hard. Therefore, anyone slower than Bowser should immediately be scrutinized when it comes to advantage. If Bowser can deliver his massive fist to your face before you can swing your sword, I think Bowser has said advantage. Bowser's moves come out quicker and with great power and killing ability. He even has Fire-Breath, which is like a pseudo-projectile, and considering the power behind it, and how easy it is to get Ike into it, I think this matchup needs to be corrected.
I'm saying at least 60/40 at least, in Bowser's favor.
The reason Bowser has a disadvantage is primarily due to one of a few reasons:
a) He's slow
b) He's laggy
c) The opponent has disjointed hitboxes
d) The opponent has projectiles
You get the opponent capable of handling two, I'd call it even. But Bowser being outdone by someone with only one main Vs. Bowser advantage? I don't think so. Bowser punishes. He punishes hard. Therefore, anyone slower than Bowser should immediately be scrutinized when it comes to advantage. If Bowser can deliver his massive fist to your face before you can swing your sword, I think Bowser has said advantage. Bowser's moves come out quicker and with great power and killing ability. He even has Fire-Breath, which is like a pseudo-projectile, and considering the power behind it, and how easy it is to get Ike into it, I think this matchup needs to be corrected.
I'm saying at least 60/40 at least, in Bowser's favor.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
With his poor movement speed and in this matchup, lack of range?
Not going to happen.
Ike has much more range to his attacks than bowser does. By the time you can Ftilt Ike you are already within his range so he can hit you before you get into the range needed.
let alone the fact that his Nair, Fair and Bair are rather quick with good range.
Or his Ftilt which has killing power and good range.
The range is the deciding factor. Bowser really has little to get around it.
His movement speed doesn't help nor does his lack of approaching.
You go for a flamethrower Ike can Fair you out of it. Or SH eruption.
SlashTalon
Smash Ace
Respect Ninja Link, that man is a walking Brawl computer in a chimp suit.
What did u expect?
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
hmm... just checked the metaknight boards and they seem to think they have the advantage over snake and DK...
I actually think they are right about snake... DK I'm not sure but, if this is the case... they have NO bad matchups... whatesoever... which is utter crap <_<.
Oh and, also, the way MK is designed, he pretty much makes mediocre players look like pros, but, I mean he can't really improve the ability of a pro much... so I wonder how accurate his chart is unless pros are weighing in on it.
I actually think they are right about snake... DK I'm not sure but, if this is the case... they have NO bad matchups... whatesoever... which is utter crap <_<.
Oh and, also, the way MK is designed, he pretty much makes mediocre players look like pros, but, I mean he can't really improve the ability of a pro much... so I wonder how accurate his chart is unless pros are weighing in on it.
NinjaLink
Smash Master
Why thank you ^_^
Bull. Snake beats meta if he doesnt get gimped. DK counters MK. I dont care. He kills meta at 70%. DK dies at at LEAST 150%.
EDIT:Let me add this. DK outranges, outpowers and out lives meta.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Out range? Probably. Priority wise? No.
MK also racks up damage very quickly on DK so 150% isn't very difficult either nor is it hard to kill at such a percentage with MK's very reliable kill moves.
yeah DK can pop MK at early percentages, but it can be difficult considering that unlike Dk, very few of MK's moves extend his hurtbox, he can play more safely than Dk.
As for snake he has a very good chance of getting gimped. MK's multiple jumps and Dair are make him very capable at killing Snake.
snake has little aerial game so once he starts trying to recover Snake will have a hard time. The very nature of MK's moves also pop him up vertically so that it isnt difficult to keep Snake in the air.
nor is it extremely difficult for mk to approach snake either.
Snake I doubt DK not so much. since Dk actually has an aerial game to speak of.
NinjaLink
Smash Master
in most cases range usually means priority. DK can spam dtilts he trips, he does down b. Thats a good amount of damage already. DK just has to hit him literally about 4-5 times then MK is in deathrange of percent. Then DK can space a fsmash or do a dsmash outta shield. Thats the end of MKs stock. To be honest for MK to win this he has to be on point....Sadly most meta players arent lmao. Ppl think MK does alot of damage fast.....he actually doesnt. Try the silly uair, uair, uair, uair, uair, up-b combo. It does like 25-30% LMAO. btw just to add, if meta was to set up an UPb on DK, DK can just dair to stop it. It'll either clash or meta would be sent straight down. Either way meta gets hit
Meta can NOT take damage at any cost to win this fight.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I agree with shadowlink.
at BEST this is 55:45 DK.... which is still even.... where as I'd say Snake is 55:45 Meta.
at BEST this is 55:45 DK.... which is still even.... where as I'd say Snake is 55:45 Meta.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Not in DK's case. He doesn't have disjointed hitboxes s whenever he extends a body part the hurtbox moves with it.
Mk can use his own Dtilt which is faster, can trip and can lead into more punishment overal.
After Dk performs a ground slap it isn't going to be easy to follow it up at higher percentages.
You are drastically underestimating MK's capabilities.
Even if MK is in death range its rather difficult to kill him.
Fsmash can be difficult to land due to its startup speed and Dk's Dsmash won't hit Mk if he is spacing.
Considering the fact that DK can remain in the air for a good amount of time and still remain same from many of DK's kills moves lessens DK's killing power.
Range isn't too great of a difference to warrant a major factor its more the speed and capability of racking damage.
MK is much faster, has better aerial capabilities and has very safe moves on the ground.
Dk can't really spacing his Bairs since it isn't too hard for mk to avoid it (seriously if you have your back to him what else are you going to do?)
MK can juggle Dk rather easily due o his multiple jumps and extremely quick attacks.
[/quote]
To be honest for MK to win this he has to be on point....Sadly most meta players arent lmao. Ppl think MK does alot of damage fast.....he actually doesnt. Try the silly uair, uair, uair, uair, uair, up-b combo. It does like 25-30% LMAO. [/quote]
yes and now do it again, and again and again and the damage goes up.
its like Sonic's ASC, one combo frm an SC is guaranteed 32% damage.
Considering the speed racking damage is quite easy.
let alone the fact that once DK is above MK he is at a disadvantage because he doesn't have a method of getting down quickly enough to protect himself. let alone the fact that MK's moves are very fast with little ending lag so he isn't going to be punished easily.
how to solve, dont use an ^B or use it in an unpredictable manner. How do you know MK is going to move into an ^B afterwards? He can just finish with a Uair and continously juggle Dk.
Or he can OOS a Dsmash which is far more effective than DK's despite the lack of power.
It isn't hard at all for MK to minimize the damage intake. He has to play similar to marth. Control the spacing and he will take much less damage.
Very few of mk's moves leave him vulnerable and those that do, generally aren't used much.
SlashTalon
Smash Ace
I just watched Plank and Omni use their MKs against G-regs snake and it was brutal. Once snake gets knocked off He's done. MK's UPB hits snake and the sypher saves MK from gliding off screen AND allows him to upB AGAIN.
A smart MK can take that match easily.
Dk has like 5-6 moves that end the tornado, his uptilt being the best IMO (like swatting flies haha)
You have to remember that this chart is based on two characters being played to their full potential by top skilled players.
A noob DK will get ***** by an average MK. Same with Falco vs MK. If you dont know what to do you're going to whine that that matchup is impossible.
A smart MK can take that match easily.
Dk has like 5-6 moves that end the tornado, his uptilt being the best IMO (like swatting flies haha)
You have to remember that this chart is based on two characters being played to their full potential by top skilled players.
A noob DK will get ***** by an average MK. Same with Falco vs MK. If you dont know what to do you're going to whine that that matchup is impossible.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Wha MK spams their tornado foolishly though?
NinjaLink
Smash Master
I'm not underestimating MK. So far i havent lost to MK any time lately, M2K, Azen and Omni included. I know how the char works. And i've done the matchup from both sides. Metas Dtilt isnt that far in range and it also hits things thats on the floor. The hitbox is so small vertically. Now his ftilt he can space with. Still DKs dtilt is fast like i think 3-4 frames....i'll test later. metas dsmash, which i STILL dont kno why they spam it when he has faster moves.....but anyway...his dsmash is 5 frames. if he were to do that outta shield, i dont kno what attack DK has to do to lag that much. His bair nor nair lags hard. DK could block that and dsmash him back and DKs dsmash isnt slow. Even if meta manages to block it, it pushes him a good distance so meta would have to move outta shield first .
Metas dsmash isnt all that to begin with. Its easy to DI and since its DK, the highest average weighted char in the game, Its goin to be a while before u'll get the kill off. Even if its fresh...(which metas have that extreme habit to not keep it fresh)...it wont kill until 150%.
Metas dsmash isnt all that to begin with. Its easy to DI and since its DK, the highest average weighted char in the game, Its goin to be a while before u'll get the kill off. Even if its fresh...(which metas have that extreme habit to not keep it fresh)...it wont kill until 150%.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Well by fast I mean overall. I think MK's Dtilt can be used more times than DK's within the same amount of time.
That isn't too bad though. Considering his attacks aren't committed like Fox he shouldn't have a great issue pulling away.
Dsmash is indeed overrated. Its not as powerful as DK's and G&W's moves so making it stale hurts. Why Dsmash when you can Nair or Fair or Bair especially since they dont pop the enemy far away that you an't pressure them as easily.
I digress. IN anycase the ^B and Dsmash are still good and his Dair is very good due to its semispiking ability.
Dk doesn't have to be at around 150%, because of the quality of the Dair.
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