Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Flayl]

but you also ignore the fact that Terios' Sonic is average.
Hell he said it himself, there are a number of things that would have helped him int he match (spinshotting being number1) but he does not do well.

So what comparison would be fair for you?

 

[Mmac]

Wasn't Falco his hardest matchup before the CG?

One of his hardest. Even before that, I still think Lucario and G&W are worse

 

[darkspatan117]

IvanEva most Marth main agree that It's 50/50 Marth vs R.O.B even match Marth bad matchup are against the 2 char that win constentialy:MK and Snake For MK it's 60:40 MK favor For Snake it's 55:45 Snake favor

 

[Tenki]

Question on discussing matchups

so I've been stressing lately that mindgames don't affect matchup discussions.

It's been said that this is because both players can mindgame, therefore it shouldn't matter.

Does it?

I mean, you can have a bunch of people discredit something like say, Ike's F-air due to its speed, then say "hahaha Ike is slow, so you shouldn't be hit by anything except for jab." or "He can't gimp this character! I can just airdodge!"

But then you take it to a real situation against a good Ike, who expects and takes advantage of airdodges, and get demolished.

So, rather than ignoring moves altogether and dismissing the 'mindgame' factor, shouldn't it be assumed that both characters can mindgame and thus land certain moves that (purely statistically speaking) shouldn't hit?



There's a Lucario vs Sonic thread going on somewhere, and I'm laughing inside because I'm giving such shallow responses that imply things like "Sonic has no range aerially so he can't break Lucario's disjoined hitbox in the air" and let things like "Lucario can just airdodge B-air when you try to gimp" slide by.

 

[Clai]

Ganondorf has a lot of trouble getting past ROB's spot dodge to down smash. Couple that with ROB's ridiculous projectile game against the slow moving Ganon and you've got a very uphill match-up.

The only thing about that set-up is that spot-dodge to downsmash is usually the ROB player's first, second and third option when someone is near his face. Yes, ROB can try to go to an aerial from the spot-dodge, but ROB isn't the most mobile when it comes to setting up those attacks. You see a ROB spot-dodging, wait for the end of the animation and then spot-dodge. (Assuming ROB down-smashes) You just won a free grab and can tech chase him however you like.

As for ROB's projectile game, it's nowhere near ridiculous. You see ROB throwing a gyro at you, shield it. You see a gyro on the ground, wait for it to run out or dash attack when ROB gets close. It's been said before, Ganon's dash attack freaking hurts. As for the lazerz, it's really not much of a hassle. Pikachu's thunder jolt is much more annoying than anything ROB has.

I'm not disputing that it's an uphill battle for Ganondorf, I'm just saying it's like any other charater with a little X Ganon has to face, and Ganondorf is just like any character ROB has to fight. There is really nothing character-specific to the point that Ganon is the only one that gets *****. Just more of the "Ganon's too slow" mantra.

Now if you want to keep Ganon's quota of huge disadvantages, I will go step-by-step as to why Peach completely cremates Ganondorf. That matchup is unfair.

 

[IvanEva]

ROB's spot dodge to down smash combination is far more difficult to get past (especially with King Leonidorf) than you're making it seem. His down smash comes out so quickly and his spot dodging is so lagless that getting a grab in when he's being defensive like that is a chore. An annoying chore that will knock you away and then beam you. This is also saying nothing of ROB's air superiority.

Peach destroys Ganondorf? I can see that.

Ganon will no doubt have the worst match-ups in this chart, he certainly doesn't have any good ones, but he's a character that can turn the match around like nobody else so I don't really consider him the single worst character.

Tenki: "mindgames" aren't necessarily taken into account but the tools and options which bring about mindgaming possibilities are.

 

[PKNintendo]

The Ness matchups are horridly wrong.

Ness at a disadvantage against kirby, Squirtle, ZSS, Fox, DK, Sonic, Pikachu and IC.

Slight disadvantage on DK. (45-55)
I think he's even with Kirby, Squirtle, Fox, Sonic, Pikachu, and IC
Slight adv on ZSS

Please change them.

 

[Shy Guy 86]

I really want to kill yoshi's CG and make it only an Infinite on MK....

 

[ShadowLink84]

So what comparison would be fair for you?

There are none currently.

 

[Denzi]

so I've been stressing lately that mindgames don't affect matchup discussions.

It's been said that this is because both players can mindgame, therefore it shouldn't matter.

Does it?

I mean, you can have a bunch of people discredit something like say, Ike's F-air due to its speed, then say "hahaha Ike is slow, so you shouldn't be hit by anything except for jab." or "He can't gimp this character! I can just airdodge!"

But then you take it to a real situation against a good Ike, who expects and takes advantage of airdodges, and get demolished.

So, rather than ignoring moves altogether and dismissing the 'mindgame' factor, shouldn't it be assumed that both characters can mindgame and thus land certain moves that (purely statistically speaking) shouldn't hit?



There's a Lucario vs Sonic thread going on somewhere, and I'm laughing inside because I'm giving such shallow responses that imply things like "Sonic has no range aerially so he can't break Lucario's disjoined hitbox in the air" and let things like "Lucario can just airdodge B-air when you try to gimp" slide by.

Mindgamez? NO.

That would probably be the first response given by most people, but (especially since I use Ike) I tend to agree with you.
Then again, this could throw off all that exists in the chart so far..
But I think it's worth a shot.

 

[IvanEva]

I really want to kill yoshi's CG and make it only an Infinite on MK....

I keep hearing about how Yoshi's chain grabs are great and wonderful and how they make him go toe to toe with Metaknight. However, has anybody noticed any increase in Yoshi rank at tournaments and such? I mean, in my eyes he still sucks and I just can't see how a chain grab that he'll never land on Metaknight is ever going to change that. (Yes, I hate Yoshi - Yoshi's Island DS has forevr scarred me with it's mediocrity).

 

[Mmac]

Exactly how Yoshi is never going to be able to grab MetaKnight exactly?


It seems to me that you are just having a personal grudge

 

[Tenki]

I keep hearing about how Yoshi's chain grabs are great and wonderful and how they make him go toe to toe with Metaknight. However, has anybody noticed any increase in Yoshi rank at tournaments and such? I mean, in my eyes he still sucks and I just can't see how a chain grab that he'll never land on Metaknight is ever going to change that. (Yes, I hate Yoshi - Yoshi's Island DS has forevr scarred me with it's mediocrity).

pretty much any non-retreated approach can either be U-smashed or retreating pivot-grabbed by Yoshi, or something liek that.

better to ask a Yoshi main xD

I thought they had a thread somewhere. Or maybe it was buried in the tier discussion thread.

 

[Mmac]

I thought they had a thread somewhere. Or maybe it was buried in the tier discussion thread.

This one? http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189969

 

[Browny]

I think the main thing holding back yoshis matchups even with his chaingrab is the fact that they are completely stage dependant. If you ban FD vs a yoshi and CP stages like battlefield, halberd and delfino it seriously limits its effectiveness.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I keep hearing about how Yoshi's chain grabs are great and wonderful and how they make him go toe to toe with Metaknight. However, has anybody noticed any increase in Yoshi rank at tournaments and such? I mean, in my eyes he still sucks and I just can't see how a chain grab that he'll never land on Metaknight is ever going to change that. (Yes, I hate Yoshi - Yoshi's Island DS has forevr scarred me with it's mediocrity).

That's due to a decided lack of Yoshi players... not an actual lack of technical ability. Furthermore this can be partially attributed to other bad match-ups, an MK neutral doesn't mean stellar match-ups across the board. The overall point is of course, that overall tournament results are irrelevant for any individual match-up.

The chain grab is quite easy to land on MK as well since Yoshi's pivot grab is incredibly good, and it's got range. This isn't like Ganondorf vs Wario, Yoshi has more then enough range that it can be pulled off at least once in the average match.


But of course, in your eyes he still sucks... and that's all that matters as far as the chart is concerned. Which is exactly the reason why the methodology for compiling this chart sucks, and therefore this chart is utterly useless.

The only thing about that set-up is that spot-dodge to downsmash is usually the ROB player's first, second and third option when someone is near his face. Yes, ROB can try to go to an aerial from the spot-dodge, but ROB isn't the most mobile when it comes to setting up those attacks. You see a ROB spot-dodging, wait for the end of the animation and then spot-dodge. (Assuming ROB down-smashes) You just won a free grab and can tech chase him however you like.

As for ROB's projectile game, it's nowhere near ridiculous. You see ROB throwing a gyro at you, shield it. You see a gyro on the ground, wait for it to run out or dash attack when ROB gets close. It's been said before, Ganon's dash attack freaking hurts. As for the lazerz, it's really not much of a hassle. Pikachu's thunder jolt is much more annoying than anything ROB has.

I'm not disputing that it's an uphill battle for Ganondorf, I'm just saying it's like any other charater with a little X Ganon has to face, and Ganondorf is just like any character ROB has to fight. There is really nothing character-specific to the point that Ganon is the only one that gets *****. Just more of the "Ganon's too slow" mantra.

Now if you want to keep Ganon's quota of huge disadvantages, I will go step-by-step as to why Peach completely cremates Ganondorf. That matchup is unfair.

Rob doesn't have a ridiculous projectile game... excuse me while I laugh my *** off.

Regardless, it is character-specific, every character that ROB beats is due to the character's set of attributes. Ganondorf simply doesn't have any answers to ROB in general.

Ganon will no doubt have the worst match-ups in this chart, he certainly doesn't have any good ones, but he's a character that can turn the match around like nobody else so I don't really consider him the single worst character.

*bolding added

Captain Falcon says "hi".

A safe poking move for Ganondorf (which dtilt is against Captain Falcon), and Captain Falcon's lack of any reliable approaches against Ganondorf puts this in his advantage. From there, Ganondorf's far better punishing game compounds the advantage.

 

[Mmac]

I think the main thing holding back yoshis matchups even with his chaingrab is the fact that they are completely stage dependant. If you ban FD vs a yoshi and CP stages like battlefield, halberd and delfino it seriously limits its effectiveness.

Delfino has walkoffs, and more than half of the landing spots are extremely flat. I don't think it's a place you want to take Yoshi to. Not to mention the platform is sometimes very flat in the middle also

Also Battlefield only helps a bit. Chaingrab is a no, but it doesn't really limit what Yoshi can do on Release due to the Opening in the center. Plus I think the platforms help Yoshi more than MetaKnight, but that might be my opinion.

Yoshi has tons more Stage Counterpicks on MetaKnight than you might think. He's actually got around 10 Stage Counterpicks against MetaKnight, half of which are Neutral/Neutral-Counterpick hybrids.

FYI, The stages are: Final Destination, Smashville, Pokemon Stadium 1, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Corneria, Distant Planet, Green Hill Zone, Pictochat, and Yoshi's Island Melee. Maybe Pirate Ship too

 

[IvanEva]

I'm curious to learn more about these anti-Metaknight Yoshi tactics (as I hate them both equally but at least Yoshi's Island 1 kicked so much ***) so are there any tournament videos of these things being used on a live, resisting opponent? I'd really like to see these things in action.

Adumbrodeus: Yes, in my eyes he still sucks. However, according to the SBR tier list, my eyes aren't the only ones that see things that way. Actually, I think that Yoshi is much lower than he should be. I'd put him above Ness and Lucas in bottom tier, which still constitutes suck. I mean, how is he lower than Samus? At least he has a very strong kill move (up air). Then again, he also has Yoshi's Island DS...

 

[Mmac]

Pride used to be teh Tournament Yoshi guy, but he quit brawl. Bwett has a few videos against MetaKnight I can probably find easily, but I am not sure of the quality of the MetaKnights he faces though. Give me a sec and I'll find them.

The only famous MetaKnight I have beaten was Overswarm's (Although technically I lost (He Countered with ROB in the final match) but we had one final friendly at the end, that I've beat again)

Also, Wario has WarioWorld and Masters of Disguise. ZOMG GARBAGE TIRE!!!!!

 

[Bwett]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSSKeI45GYg

These are the tactics I use. The MK in the video is on our Power Rankings for Texas, Infinity. Hope this is what you were looking for

 

[ROOOOY!]

Nice to see the Sonic v Bowser change..
o wait.

And since when was Link disadvantaged against Bowser? LOL.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

And since when was Link disadvantaged against Bowser? LOL.

Since Bowser has some funky release grab stuff?

 

[Shy Guy 86]

At least its not as outdated now...

 

[Mmac]

At least its not as outdated now...

It's not outdated, that doesn't mean it more or less inaccurate

I really doubt Ganondorf is Equal to Link.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I really doubt Ganondorf is equal to anyone...

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

I really doubt Ganondorf is equal to anyone...

He just might be to Bowser...

 

[ROOOOY!]

Since Bowser has some funky release grab stuff?

On Link, Bowser only has the grab release chaingrab (which he has on like nearly every character) and grab release side B.
Like Bowser's going to get near Link anyway lol. Link has three projectiles to keep him away pretty handily.

 

[Mmac]

Doesn't he have a release grab to DownB on him?

 

[ROOOOY!]

No.
And even if he did, he wouldn't be able to pull it off. Zair, bombs, arrows, boomerang. He's not going to be grabbed too often. That and Bowser's a big target for him.
I don't see how this is Bowsers advantage at all.

 

[Onxy]

The PT's matchup updates are soooo backwards.

Squirtle > DDD?

 

[Clai]

ROB's spot dodge to down smash combination is far more difficult to get past (especially with King Leonidorf) than you're making it seem. His down smash comes out so quickly and his spot dodging is so lagless that getting a grab in when he's being defensive like that is a chore. An annoying chore that will knock you away and then beam you. This is also saying nothing of ROB's air superiority.

Sorry, I should have explained myself better. The fact that the down-smash comes out instantly is the downfall here. All you have to do is watch for his spot-dodge and then spot-dodge right after. Down-smash goes through harmlessly and you get a grab in while the move cools down (yes, there is cooldown. Slight, but enough). As for ROB's air superiority, you should really be fighting ROB as much on the ground as possible. The combination of dash attacks, flame-chokes and Wizard's Foot can ensure that Ganon doesn't have to take it to the skies that much. Besides, ROB can't follow up Ganon once it sends him away, so I fail to see where air superiority would play that much of a role.

Peach destroys Ganondorf? I can see that.

Ha-ha, I didn't even have to explain myself and you take my word for it. Although I do have to say thanks for at giving poor Ganon some neutral matchups. Sheesh.

Rob doesn't have a ridiculous projectile game... excuse me while I laugh my *** off.

Regardless, it is character-specific, every character that ROB beats is due to the character's set of attributes. Ganondorf simply doesn't have any answers to ROB in general.

Please, don't hesitate to explain yourself. Maybe I'm just seeing things differently, but I don't see anything about ROB's laser and gyro that stand out as great projectiles. They're not spammable (entirely), they can't lead into anything (especially a kill move), and you can't use them as a defensive manuever once Ganon's already in your face. But since my statement made you laugh, please talk about ROB's projectiles some more.

 

[Yonder]

I seriosly don't get why Ganondorf is neutral against the Mario Neos, could someone please explain that to me? The Luig and Mario boards have Ganondorf at a disadvantage.

 

[Sgt Isaac]

I'm thinking Zelda's matchups are looking a little too good. No way she is neutral to MK.

 

[IvanEva]

Yeah, so, I went through each match-up, starting from Bowser and working my way down (only using one side of the table) and quickly making any changes that now reflect how I see each match-up. I probably should have done so earlier (and will certainly do so again in a half year's time or whatnot). Yeah, some of them were WAY off (maybe they weren't at one time...). Yeah, the Mario Bros. vs Ganon and several others were definitely changed up. I feel that I now have a fairly good judge of how everybody faces against everybody else (of course, anything's liable to change) and so, hopefully, this chart will inch its way every slightly towards the theoretical divinely correct match-up chart. Oh yeah, and Yoshi sucks.

(I haven't actually gone through those last few characters though. My eyes started to bleed before I got to them. Yeah, MK > Zelda. You'll see Mmac, you're going to make me super overrate that stupid dinosaur... God, that DS game was so terrible... like acid in my face...)

 

[Mmac]

Maybe I should shove Wario World in your face.

Better yet, maybe I should shove Mario is Missing in your face, then tie you into a chair, and make you get 100%, Defeating all 3 bosses, answering all the questions, and killing every Koopa.

Spoiler

I should be ashamed that I know all of that <_<

I'm wasting my time here -_ -

Seems like you are never going to change your opinion because of some stupid vendetta with a game which has nothing to do with the matchups in the first place! It just shows you how immature you are, and shows you how unequiped you are in handling a project of this caliber.

It's not like i'm saying "MeatKnight suks against Yoshi bcause he is a supre cute guy adn MetaJight will b alway ovrewelmd by his cutenses lololollloollo", BOTH parties have agreed on a Neutral Matchup due to several reasons to the point where it's now common knowledge. Plus you haven't really said why you think Yoshi sucks. I would love to see your opinion on it.

And whats your beef with Sonic too? You seem to have the same problem with him....

 

[Onxy]

I guess he hates the Pokemon games also xD I mean c'mon, their matchups are going to be on par with Falcon's soon enough. It doesn't matter to me, because Charizard having no good matchups already says that someone doesn't use PT at all.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ivan, I hope you don't use the Links in the OP as source of imnformation. Most character boards have newer match-up threads...

 

[ROOOOY!]

I disagree with nearly every change you've just made. Most notably :


Jigglypuff << ROB
Bowser = Samus !!! >_>
Shiek > Fox
Falco = Shiek
Link = Peach

And Sonic vs Bowser still hasn't changed. Wtf?

 

[ShikaChef]

Lucario>Ganondorf
End of conversation, I have tested this one multiple times.

 

[MysticKenji]

Lucario>Ganondorf
End of conversation, I have tested this one multiple times.

and it's already on there...

anyway, ike does not have an advantage over link, samus or 'zard