Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

marth is worse for her and only 60:40...

 

[adumbrodeus]

I still fail to see why. A character, who loses to Marth (and Zelda does), loses to MK as well

Not really, Marth excells in defense, whereas MK is a better offensive character.

In this situation, Zelda does better playing a offensive opponent then a defensive one.

 

[choknater]

Marth even with Zelda/Sheik IMO

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Marth even with Zelda/Sheik IMO

maybe.... but zelda alone and sheik alone are disadvantaged against him

 

[gantrain05]

i've recently givin up on hating metaknight, diddy is so much more frustrating, but i agree a patient zelda can cause alot of problems to metaknight.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Not really, Marth excells in defense, whereas MK is a better offensive character.

In this situation, Zelda does better playing a offensive opponent then a defensive one.

No. MKs defense is the same, if not better than Marths. MKs shield is harder to poke since he's so small and his spacing is much more agressive, due to his little lags. His range is the same though

 

[adumbrodeus]

No. MKs defense is the same, if not better than Marths. MKs shield is harder to poke since he's so small and his spacing is much more agressive, due to his little lags. His range is the same though

Aggressive spacing is an offensive attribute, not a defensive one.

MK has more safe range, Marth has more range in general.


Marth's advantage, defensively speaking, is that he punishes a great deal better then MK. He has dancing blade and dolphin slash, both of which compete for best punishing moves in the game, with basically no competition from any other move. The disjointed hitboxes, general priority and coverage of his moves give Marth the defensive advantage.

He however, lacks the offensive attributes that MK has, therefor, MK's offense is better. For Marth, he's simply much better at reacting to opponents attacking him and doing something about it. MK is basically lagless, but because of greater start-up doesn't punish as well. He's good for agressive spacing -> finding an advantage -> capitalizing on the momentium.

Marth on the other hand, punishes... REALLY REALLY well.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Aggressive spacing is an offensive attribute, not a defensive one.

This is highly debatable. Spacing = safety = defensice, even if used agressively

MK has more safe range, Marth has more range in general.

What do you mean by "safe range"? Both have the same range...

Marth's advantage, defensively speaking, is that he punishes a great deal better then MK.

Tornado, Drill Rush and Shuttle Loop would like to have a word with you

He has dancing blade and dolphin slash, both of which compete for best punishing moves in the game, with basically no competition from any other move.

As I said, there is competition. In fact MK has more punishing moves, that are equally good...

The disjointed hitboxes, general priority and coverage of his moves give Marth the defensive advantage.

No. Because MKs moves have the same attributes but higher priority

 

[adumbrodeus]

This is highly debatable. Spacing = safety = defensice, even if used agressively

Yes, but it is a far greater factor in being agressive, whereas if you are being solely defensive, spacing is less crucial, you wait for a mistake and then punish. Sure there's spacing there, but the acceptable margin of error is much greater on defense generally speaking (there are exceptions) because most punishers work if your opponent is WITHIN a range, not exactly at a range.

What do you mean by "safe range"? Both have the same range...

Verifiably false. MK's dtilt outranges Marth's dtilt and ftilt, his safe moves (fair may or may not be safe given the match-up). Marth's sheildbreaker and fsmash outrange MK's options in general.

Tornado, Drill Rush and Shuttle Loop would like to have a word with you

None of which are anywhere NEAR as good punishers as up-b and dancing blade.

Nearest comparison, shuttle loop vs. dolphin slash: activates much later, cannot be used to break jab combo, chain grabs, etc. If Marth is not in hitstun for even 1 frame, dolphin slash can punish. Both can kill. Dolphin slash functions by making Marth invincible until frame 5, which is when the hitbox starts. Frame 1 activation, frame 5 hitbox. PS. Try getting out of a perfect falco chaingrab with shuttle loop, or drill rush or tornado... not fast enough. Uair will get out first, but signifigantly behind Dolphin slash.

Drill rush and Tornado to dancing blade: Dancing Blade activates much faster then either of the above, not quite as fast as dolphin slash, but it damages before. Beyond that they all have the recharging multi-hit functionality. Frame 4 hitbox. Basically, if the move isn't lagless and doesn't have continuous hitboxes into the ground, it can be punished by sheild-drop to dancing blade. Also punish spotdodging and rolling, though tornado and drill rush do as well.


So Marth has one move that can punish almost any combo, and one which can punish almost anything on block/spotdodge. MK has... what that compares to this?

As I said, there is competition. In fact MK has more punishing moves, that are equally good...

Not even close.

No. Because MKs moves have the same attributes but higher priority

Similar attributes... not the same, check the respective fair's hitboxes as an example.

Remember, we aren't comparing them against each, we're comparing them to the majority of the cast and comparing the results.

 

[choknater]

maybe.... but zelda alone and sheik alone are disadvantaged against him

Yup.

The only two characters that counter both Zelda AND Sheik are Metaknight and G&W. Figures.

 

[Sgt Isaac]

He is not trying to say that MK can get out of combos better(not that many characters can combo him anyway) He is saying MK is just as good, if not better, at punishing lag than Marth is. (and has an easier time killing)

 

[IvanEva]

Sorry, I've been away for a bit. Yeah, MK > Zelda in my eyes (and most others it seems). I'll change that up soon enough (even though I always say that and then take half a year to do so).

 

[Emblem Lord]

*Marth and Sheik appear on the screen

Marth zones Sheik and keeps her out. She gets hits in here and there thanks to her speed and darting dash attack, but Marth gets the stock lead due to his superior range, punishment and killing ability.

Next stock more of the same, but Shiek gets Marth within killing range. She grabs him and throws him back and transforms to Zelda.

Now Marth takes almost complete control due to range AND speed which Sheik sacrificed upon turning into Zelda. Marth gets another kill in because of this and now has a lead by two stocks.

The moral?

Stick to Sheik.

 

[ShadowLink84]

*is tempted to use marth suddenly*

If only because he does so better against MK than some characters >_>

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

*Marth and Sheik appear on the screen

Marth zones Sheik and keeps her out. She gets hits in here and there thanks to her speed and darting dash attack, but Marth gets the stock lead due to his superior range, punishment and killing ability.

Next stock more of the same, but Shiek gets Marth within killing range. She grabs him and throws him back and transforms to Zelda.

Now Marth takes almost complete control due to range AND speed which Sheik sacrificed upon turning into Zelda. Marth gets another kill in because of this and now has a lead by two stocks.

The moral?

Stick to Sheik.

then it's odd that most zelda/sheik mains have an easier time with marth through switching than through either chacrter alone.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Well I suppose the chance of getting the kill outweighs the risk of being zoned when you transform into Zelda.

That and maybe the sudden change in style takes some adjustment.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Well I suppose the chance of getting the kill outweighs the risk of being zoned when you transform into Zelda.

That and maybe the sudden change in style takes some adjustment.

both of these are true. Zelda needs only one solid hit on marth at that point and if she's already got him off kilter with momentum, he's going to have a harder time zonging than he might otherwise.

Also, Zelda has more range than sheik. She doesn't generally outrange marth, but her range is great enough that it places demands on the marth to have much more precise zoning than he needed against sheik.

it's also possible to try to wrack up damage as zelda and switch to sheik for an edgeguard KO.

just throwing that option out there too.

 

[DanGR]

Sadly, Sheik/Zelda isn't a character in this game. You're not allowed to switch to accommodate your needs.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sadly, Sheik/Zelda isn't a character in this game. You're not allowed to switch to accommodate your needs.

Is he a blithering idiot or does he just fail at sarcasm.... somebody tell me.

 

[DanGR]

I've realized the latter.

*looks at the sbr*

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I've realized the latter.

ah fair enough then... sorry. better luck next time.

but seriously... you'd never KNOW zelda/sheik was a charcter according to this thread or the official teir list. if that's what you are getting at.

 

[DanGR]

ah fair enough then... sorry. better luck next time.

but seriously... you'd never KNOW zelda/sheik was a charcter according to this thread or the official teir list. if that's what you are getting at.

[not sarcasm]exactly[/not sarcasm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfHD_25Pis8

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

[not sarcasm]exactly[/not sarcasm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfHD_25Pis8

we COULD start a riot..... or Zelda/Sheik could just start tearing up at tournies. either or.

 

[DanGR]

18 Zelda/Sheik (3 top8, 2 top4, 1 win) - 39.1 :shiek:
27 Zelda (5 top8, 1 top4, 1 top2) - 14.9 - 28
32 :shiek: Sheik (3 top8, 1 top4, 2 wins) - 11.4 - 33

I would think this would be enough already.

*wonders why EL left* /sarcasm?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

it's not like PT either, where you are forced to accept the pros AND cons of your charcters. No, with Zelda sheik you can get the very best of both worlds. How is that NOT win?

 

[DanGR]

it's not like PT either, where you are forced to accept the pros AND cons of your charcters. No, with Zelda sheik you can get the very best of both worlds. How is that NOT win?

You're using Zelda against say...Olimar. You switch to Sheik because she has an advantage on him. Sheik/Zelda still isn't a character though- even though you've eliminated having to play the Zelda v Olimar matchup. (even after you were forced to blind picked one or the other! >_>) The way I see the sbr interpreting that is Zelda>Olimar.

It's strange enough seeing the sbr say that the tier list is a representation of tourney performance (along with matchups, potential, etc.) when you see that Sheik/Zelda has been doing better than either alone...in tourneys!

???

 

[ShadowLink84]

You're using Zelda against say...Olimar. You switch to Sheik because she has an advantage on him. Sheik/Zelda still isn't a character though- even though you've eliminated having to play the Zelda v Olimar matchup. (even after you were forced to blind picked one or the other! >_>) The way I see the sbr interpreting that is Zelda>Olimar.

It's strange enough seeing the sbr say that the tier list is a representation of tourney performance (along with matchups, potential, etc.) when you see that Sheik/Zelda has been doing better than either alone...in tourneys!

???

*looks at Sonic's placement and sighs*
Tourney placement indeed.

Anyways

 

[Tyser]

Why is Zelda vs. MK an even matchup?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

You're using Zelda against say...Olimar. You switch to Sheik because she has an advantage on him. Sheik/Zelda still isn't a character though- even though you've eliminated having to play the Zelda v Olimar matchup. (even after you were forced to blind picked one or the other! >_>) The way I see the sbr interpreting that is Zelda>Olimar.

It's strange enough seeing the sbr say that the tier list is a representation of tourney performance (along with matchups, potential, etc.) when you see that Sheik/Zelda has been doing better than either alone...in tourneys!

???

and what do they say to characters where using BOTH characters in one matchup is your choice hmm? and look at some charcters like... well ganondorf is a good example.

Zelda is good against ganondorf. really she is. but sheik is AMAZING against ganondorf. completely destroys rips to peices. it's not even BAD matchups you gain the advantage from. it's ANY matchup. you ALWAYS have your choice of Zelda, Sheik or some combination of both. there is almost NO charcter that resists all 3 of those options and MOST are weak against at least one.

Zelda/Sheik is Top or at least high teir for sure... pending on MK's innevitable ban of course.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

i still say falco vs dk is equal, the suggested cg - spike - taunt doesn't work because dk survives the spike if he doesn't burn his second jump. upb will beat out any repeat spike attempts, so really, cg to spike is only for 50% damage

after the 40-50% from a cg, he just has lasers

you match his speed, you over power and outprioritize him, and you live much longer. and you can gimp his recovery too, stick a dair in front of him and he can't do anything, except wait.

falcos just got lasers

 

[Steeler]

the lasers force dk to approach though. and that's bad. falco's reflector and fsmash also have the range to keep dk out once he's worked his way through the lasers somehow.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

falcos fsmash is not a spacing tool, especially since dks fsmash out reaches it by a mile

the reflector can be punished by a headbutt if you run in and shield, if you just do a normal shield you can do a ftilt, upb, or downb

 

[adumbrodeus]

Why is Marth still at a disadvantage to Snake and ROB.

Both are neutral, the former 45-55, the latter 50-50, please update.

ROB agrees on this, Snake hasn't covered it yet, but we assume they'll reach a similar conclusion, here's the Marth match-up threads, explaining why this is the case: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186736

 

[infernovia]

I thought falco couldn't chaingrab dk.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

falco can if he does it right, but he can't kill him with the spike, and can't spike him out of upb cause his dair only spikes on the initial frames, meaning if he did time it to hit through the top, it would knock dk sideways

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I was under the impression that Falcos Shine beats most of DKs tilts...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Shine is unsafe as hell and the damage isn't worth the risk.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Reflector throw has some nice poking applications, especially against defensive projectile charcters, but it's MUY punnishable if it's ever predicted.

And Falco isn't a charcter built to withstand much punishment with his light, yet moderately sized frame and subpar recovery.

 

[Justblaze647]

Awesome... I really needed this chart. Now I know who not to play my Marth against...

 

[manhunter098]

I would like to motion for an even matchup between Lucario and Falco. Falco cant chain grab Lucario and cannot kill well vertically, which is the best way to kill Lucario. Falco's lack of reliable killing options also allows Lucario to remain at high damage for a longer period of time than he would against characters that can KO more effectively.

The only thing Falco really has going against Lucario is his shine, which can be a pain if he properly predicts an Aura Sphere at a close distance, but all that does is limit one of Lucario's kill options. Aura also makes it much easier to stop Falco from using his illusion to recover and having Aura Sphere also helps in this as well.

Basically I think that its either in Lucario's favor, or its an even matchup, but there is no way its Falco's advantage.