Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Hive]

Since the topic came up... here's a few things I think need to be changed with samus... well at least to be looked into... good work with the chart btw IvanEva ^^
I personally find matchup charts to have the potential to be much more informative then tier listings...

Bowser, Charizard, Ike,
are all in samus' advantage.. because of their size, speed, and size which makes them easy targets to spam
bowser possibly even a huge advantage.. very spammable/comboable
olimar and DDD are probably huge disatvantages though:
DDD- because samus is one of 5 people to have both an infinite and cg on her (1 grab=1 stock), because DDD is heavy and extremely hard to gimp and samus has ko trouble means samus will have to try for the onstage ko... which doesn't start until 160%, also DDD's chaingrabs keep samus at the ledge, effectively destroying her spacing.
Olimar- because he can outspam samus, and his size prevents him from being spammed well with samus herself.
Marth I would say the matchup is 60:40 in his favor... not a huge disadvantage, but a disadvantage nontheless (taken from samsu matchup discussion on marth...)
I would say Kirby has a (40-60) disadvantage against samus- both samus boards and kirby boards agree on this btw.

edit: post #4000 yay!

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Zamus has an advantage of snake because he cant fight well against such a sexy woman and he has distractions....LOL
this thread is very old, i rather trust on the other one
zard is not too bad against samus, but its a disadvantage, IRL knows a lot about the matchup

 

[Onxy]

IRL was scarred after those matches, so it's only natural for him to say that. Charizard might be, but you still got the other two, lol.

 

[Steeler]

samus's sexy body ***** irl

just ignore this chart, correcting all of the errors is almost equivalent to making a brand new chart.

 

[choknater]

Nope, MK > Snake.

Pretty even buddy

 

[NDUDE]

Ndude, If I can't convince Ivan the Biased that Yoshi is even with MetaKnight with Statistics, Charts, Months of debate, Discussions with some of the top MetaKnight Mains, Techniques, Videos, Agreement with the METAKNIGHT MAINS THEMSELVES, and a Cookie Basket, then I don't think you'll stand a chance in hell trying to convince him that Falcon is even with MetaKnight.

Not to mention that 90% Matchups with Yoshi are just plain wrong anyways

Yoshi ***** MK with air priority. BAir or NAir -> ground moves (no lag upon landing) is pretty amazing, not to mention that Yoshi lives a bit longer than most other chars. If it's just bias, then why bother making this chart/tiers/etc.? Why not, like, you know, have input from actual players? Forget this, I'm going by experience.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Stop being a communist and fix up those Yoshi Match ups, your just adding to the stereotype of him being bad.

You don't have to listen to the Yoshi boards.

But when Other boards will tell you the same dam thing, and other people who don't main that character acknowledge it, but you don't

*facepalm*

 

[choknater]

Mmac has a lot of credibility.

Yoshi is a character with much ability that people fail to notice because he is Yoshi.

 

[Steeler]

the rest of the yoshi board agrees that mk is 55:45 over yoshi. close enough to even but i thought i'd point that out.

 

[TK Wolf]

D3 is one of Lucario's hardest matchups. Definitely in D3's advantage. D3 outranges lucario in almost every possible aspect. He also can get early vertical or horizontal KOs.

Luc's sideB chain is nice if you can get it off, but D3 has a grab combo that works under any situation and is far easier to pull off. On top of that, Luc has a tough time KOing D3. D3 can also rip Lucario out of the air if he shields a short-hopped aerial, leading to yet another chaingrab.

In short, Lucario has to work much harder and be a good step above his opponent to make it out of that matchup alive.

 

[Boxob]

Sonic ***** Marth.

Maybe just Boxob does.

I have never lost to Marth, really.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sonic....really doesn't **** Marth. >_>

 

[ROOOOY!]

Sonic:

IC's from disadvantage to neutral. It's been put down as 50:50 on their boards, and we haven't covered it yet, but I'm sure we'd probably agree. Seperating them is far too easy for Sonic, and his offstage game is good so as to gimp one of them. However, IC's are difficult to approach because of Blizzard and Ice Blocks to some extent, and if the Sonic can't seperate the two, then :|

Peach from neutral to disadvantage. Kinda agreed by both parties on our character boards a while ago, though I forget specifically where. Aerial based characters hurt Sonic.

Why am I even posting? It's not going to get changed anyway xD

 

[rodrigo_ssbb]

On the Wolf Forum it's

Wolf = Snake
Wolf = Pit

 

[TKD]

Sonic:

IC's from disadvantage to neutral. It's been put down as 50:50 on their boards, and we haven't covered it yet, but I'm sure we'd probably agree. Seperating them is far too easy for Sonic, and his offstage game is good so as to gimp one of them. However, IC's are difficult to approach because of Blizzard and Ice Blocks to some extent, and if the Sonic can't seperate the two, then :|

Peach from neutral to disadvantage. Kinda agreed by both parties on our character boards a while ago, though I forget specifically where. Aerial based characters hurt Sonic.

Why am I even posting? It's not going to get changed anyway xD

Any Sonic player that's ever played me will tell you Sonic's ot even against IC.

 

[TKD]

Sonic:

IC's from disadvantage to neutral. It's been put down as 50:50 on their boards, and we haven't covered it yet, but I'm sure we'd probably agree. Seperating them is far too easy for Sonic, and his offstage game is good so as to gimp one of them. However, IC's are difficult to approach because of Blizzard and Ice Blocks to some extent, and if the Sonic can't seperate the two, then :|

Peach from neutral to disadvantage. Kinda agreed by both parties on our character boards a while ago, though I forget specifically where. Aerial based characters hurt Sonic.

Why am I even posting? It's not going to get changed anyway xD

Any Sonic player that's ever played me will tell you Sonic's not even against IC.

 

[IvanEva]

Sonic:

1. IC's from disadvantage to neutral.

2. Peach from neutral to disadvantage. Aerial based characters hurt Sonic.

3. Why am I even posting? It's not going to get changed anyway xD

1. Sonic = Icies? I... guess? I'd still lean towards it being in Sonic's favor since the Ice Climber's ice blocks + blizzard make them annoying hard to approach with Sonic's more linear attacks.

2. Ok.

3. That's not true. You can't really change my mind without teaching me something new or another about match-ups that I'm solidly sure of. Match-ups that I'm fuzzy about though, like the two you just posted, are why I like people posting.

Lucario < Dedede? Gotcha.

Apart from the Metaknight/Yoshi dealie, which of Yoshi's other match-ups are disagreed upon? He IS low tier for a reason...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Sonic....really doesn't **** Marth. >_>

Don't bother, Boxob has (at least for the past couple of days) has merely been spamming stuff like this with no reasoning behind it.

I very much doubt he actually believes it.

Apart from the Metaknight/Yoshi dealie, which of Yoshi's other match-ups are disagreed upon? He IS low tier for a reason...

Yes, the prioritization of tournament results.

Regardless, no tier position is irrelevant to any individual match-up.

 

[Mmac]

Apart from the Metaknight/Yoshi dealie, which of Yoshi's other match-ups are disagreed upon? He IS low tier for a reason...

And that Reason is?

Seriously, there's a reason why you are greatly losing credibility and support. You negatively look upon on some characters. Sometimes, your motives are just mysterious at best. Lets take this for example the post you just did:

IC's from disadvantage to neutral.

Sonic = Icies? I... guess? I'd still lean towards it being in Sonic's favor

Matchup is currently disadvantaged. He says Sonic is even with Ice Climbers... You say Sonic is actually advantaged to Ice Climbers.... What the ****?


I'm going to go through it one more time. I wouldn't be surprised though if I was all but ignored... again

Yoshi > Bowser (Not yet discussed by the Matchup owner, yet the owner knows and agrees with me)
Yoshi > Falcon (ZOMG You got it right! O_o)
Yoshi = Charizard (They Agree)
Yoshi = Diddy (Diddy Mains Agree)
Yoshi = DK (Not yet discussed by the DK Boards)
Yoshi ? Falco (Ranges anywhere to Advantage Falco to Advantage Yoshi, Will be discussed hopefully soon)
Yoshi = Fox (Agreed by both parties)
Yoshi << Game & Watch (Not yet discussed, but I don't really have to wait to tell you he kicks our *** )
Yoshi >> Ganondorf (He's got a 0% Kill on him, how can this be NOT Heavily his favour)
Yoshi = Ice Climbers (Agreed by Both Parties)
Yoshi = Ike (Agrred with both parties)
Yoshi = Ivysaur (Correct. You see how much I feel you are off? There's like 1 correct after 6 incorrects)
Yoshi > or >> Jigglypuff (Her best skill, air, is beaten by Yoshi, and not only that, he's got a kill setup on her on Grab Release)
Yoshi = Dedede (Not yet discussed by Dedede Mains.)
Yoshi = Kirby (Agreed by both parties)
Yoshi < Link (Correct)
Yoshi < Lucario (Also correct, you should be proud)
Yoshi > Lucas (Not yet discussed by Lucas, but both parties agreed it's not in Lucas's favour at least)
Yoshi = Luigi (Both Parties agree)
Yoshi = Mario (Also Agreed upon, constantly)
Yoshi < Marth (Who didn't see this coming?)
Yoshi = MetaKnight (BOTH FRIGGEN PARTIES AGREE, JUST CHANGE IT ALREADY!)
Yoshi = Ness (Not yet Discussed from Ness)
Yoshi = Peach (Correct and Agreed upon)
Yoshi = Pikachu (Not yet Discussed by Pikachu Mains)
Yoshi > Olimar (Agreed by both parties)
Yoshi = Pit (Agreed once again)
Yoshi < ROB (Hate the stupid thing)
Yoshi > Samus (I also saw this was changed recently. Good for you)
Yoshi = Sheik (Yep, Correct again)
Yoshi ? Snake (Yoshi has Easy 0% Death Setup's, Snake is Snake...)
Yoshi > Sonic (Not yet discussed by the primary community, but have discussed recently with ROOOOOY)
Yoshi >> Squirtle (It's bad when the Squirtle Mains themselves BEG this matchup to be changed)
Yoshi < Toon Link (Correct)
Yoshi >> Wario (During the course of this chart, we have found an easier infinite, and now an even an easier easier infinite! They're just ****ed, just update it already!)
Yoshi < Wolf (If only we could Chaingrab, because we have an 0% Kill on him too )
Yoshi = Zelda (Eh... This one is alittle foggy I admit. It's about the same boat as Snake/Falco)
Yoshi = ZSS (It used to be our advantage, then it went back to neutral. However it was NEVER in her advantage...)

Even if you don't add any of the ones that haven't been officially agreed upon, A grand total of SIXTEEN OFFICIALLY AGREED UPON MATCHUPS ARE INCORRECT! This is how bad, inaccurate, and biased this Chart has gotten.

 

[ungulateman]

A good Marth can keep Sonic away forever, as the sword has enough reach that Sonic can't reach him.

60:40 at best.

 

[ReoZeo]

Wow very nice, must've taking you a long time to do one for all these characters

 

[ROOOOY!]

1. Sonic = Icies? I... guess? I'd still lean towards it being in Sonic's favor since the Ice Climber's ice blocks + blizzard make them annoying hard to approach with Sonic's more linear attacks.

Approaching from the ground is a problem, yes.
Spindash invincibility frames will save you from the first Ice Block or two, but are pretty spammable.
Blizzard is horrible.

HOWEVER Sonic can also approach aerially, which is where he may be based for most of the match-up to avoid being grabbed.
Spinshot is great. If you don't know what that is it's where you jump out of a spindash jump (and you can do it aerially with spincharge) and you're sent in an arc through the air covering over half of FD, at just under Sonic's ground running speed. It has no hitbox, but it can be attacked out of.
And...you kinda got your wording mixed up there.

Like I said, it's even declared neutral on IC boards (a character board not claiming they have a massive advantage over him with no discussion? :') ) They're super easy to seperate and gimp.
Yeah, I think it's neutral.

And Mmac I forgot that I asked about the Yoshi Sonic match-up on your boards lol, I'll go check it out now

 

[Justblaze647]

^ dude ur makin' me wanna main Sonic^

but at the same time... I'm pretty comfortable with my squad...

 

[Steeler]

the reason this chart is wrong is that ivaneva acts as the gatekeeper. and he's not even a notable smasher to begin with. it's flawed right down to its principles.

edit in response to mmac.

oh and the pt matchups vs yoshi are indeed agreed with, if you need an opinion from the other side.

 

[Justblaze647]

the reason this chart is wrong is that ivaneva acts as the gatekeeper. and he's not even a notable smasher to begin with. it's flawed right down to its principles.

LMAO! You didn't have to call him out like that, did you?

 

[Steeler]

LMAO! You didn't have to call him out like that, did you?

idk, i just felt that mmac was worrying over nothing. the character board chart has taken this chart's spot as the main matchup chart, imo.

 

[IvanEva]

LMAO! You didn't have to call him out like that, did you?

That's ok, I'm a big boy. I can take it.

I have been neglecting this chart in lieu of working on other, generally non-smash related, projects. I deserve some scorn for that, for sure. I no longer have the time (or the desire) to look through all the threads in any sort of regular fashion anymore.

DanGR certainly deserves a lot of praise for his chart - he didn't like mine or my method so he set out and made his own using an intelligent method of forgoing his direct opinion and opting to only take his entries from a character's match-up thread. Good stuff and I'm in full support of it.

That being said, I'm sticking with mine for now and I prefer it over a communal chart for several reasons. Primarily, this chart is now just a way for me to jot down how I personally view the match-ups. Yes, it's how *I* view them. Me, an old geezer from Ottawa who has thus far only gone to one large-scale tournament (and I didn't even make it out of pools ). How then can this chart possibly be "correct"? Why would a non-'notable smasher' just stick to his guns and change things only when he's convinced, not when people make lots of noise about it? The answer is cynicism.

There are certain few match-ups where everybody agrees on how it goes. The vast majority, however, have at least a few detractors (and many are basically toss ups). I have seen some match-up threads where I disagree with things so much that I barely ever look at it again (there's also a time thing but apart from that...). I have seen small-scale panics on these boards whenever some new gimmick or 'advanced technique' has been discovered. I've realized that the most vocal and post-happy players aren't always the best source for information and that in the end, most match-ups come down to experience + opinion.

Is there room for two charts? Is there any point? In my opinion, no. When Dan's chart is 90% finished or so (and I will hopefully have the full skeleton for my little Flash project ready by then) I'll happily retire this chart. It bugs me to no end that I haven't found a job in my field yet (Game Development - Ottawa isn't exactly bursting with jobs for that...) and thus I haven't had the funds to run around attending tournaments. At the same time, I've also taken up other projects and the like which have taken up my focus (which is a poor excuse though...).

Until Dan's chart is complete, I believe that this chart should be good enough for players to take a quick glance and see how characters relatively stack up against each other... in MY eyes at least.

Irrelevant note: Go play Mother 3. Now.

 

[wangston]

Final meta knight has gotten his match ups right

 

[Ryusuta]

No, it hasn't. Meta Knight is neutral to Yoshi. It's his only neutral match-up.

 

[Justblaze647]

No, it hasn't. Meta Knight is neutral to Yoshi. It's his only neutral match-up.

Show me Proof... (prefferably from a vid...)

 

[Ryusuta]

Show me Proof... (prefferably from a vid...)

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189699
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178435
(Can't seem to get the video working. Stupid Filefront.)

At any rate, Yoshi's got a CG, a wall/wind infinite CG, a grab release to up smash (which KOs fresh at 115%) and a grab release spike on Meta Knight. No other character can make that claim. Most people consider Yoshi to go about 4.5:5.5 vs. Meta Knight, which is considered neutral.

 

[Clai]

Coming from someone who trains against a Samus main, I am pretty certain about a few of her matchups, particularly that Samus>ROB.

ROB has absolutely no discernable pressure game, meaning that it cannot disrupt Samus' spacing ability. ROB's excellent anti-pressure game doesn't have many answers to Samus' ever-annoying z-air attack, and Samus' quick aerials can set up into her smashes nicely. It's really a matchup of who can get inside who easier, and Samus' z-air is just too good in accomplishing that.

 

[pastaboy]

this chart is full of win.
it sux that it is impossible to pleaze every smasher on the boards, you put alot of time into this chart and most ppl just **** on it, and your doing it for them, and yes yourself too.
i think ppl are looking to deeply into this chart. it used for a quick who's generally good against who sorta thing.
evan keep up da good werk

 

[Sgt Isaac]

MK has a small advantage on bowser, ivy, etc?
I know its probably not very high priority, but MK needs a LARGE ADVANTAGE on a lot more people.

 

[IvanEva]

Sgt Isaac: Actually, that's a good point. I stopped paying attention to Metaknight's line once he got all checks. Yeah, Ivysaur (and others) is brutally scared of Metaknight.

 

[Akariss]

This chart will really help me to give me a general idea of who's good against who. Good job! :bigthumbu

 

[Wavekirby]

Good job, but... Captain Falcon only has 2 neutrals, and doesn't have any blue checkmarks...

 

[Morrigan]

^Then it's perfect :D

 

[cheetacuz007]

snake vs. meta is a neutral matchup
even m2k says so

 

[gantrain05]

i think that olimar vs DK should be changed to at least neutral if not olimars advantage, cuz really, having it on DK's advantage doesn't seem to make much sense to me.