Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[rehab]

...is not fast, versatile or strong enough to impede DK, and spaced bairs are a good enough approach to not be significantly punishable by Link.

 

[Justblaze647]

...is not fast, versatile or strong enough to impede DK, and spaced bairs are a good enough approach to not be significantly punishable by Link.

well you can just spot dodge the bairs... and then jab cancel to a d smash (or whatever tickles your fancy)... then you become a projectile *****...

 

[rehab]

If anybody is being so predictable with an approach (with any character) that you can easily spot dodge punish an attack that comes out as fast Dk's bair and has the range and relatively good cooldown time that it does, the person being punished is not playing right. DK's bair is not that punishable. He also significantly outranges Link on the ground, and is borderline unpunishable there while putting Link in the danger zone.

Link doesn't go even with Marth, does he?

 

[Justblaze647]

If anybody is being so predictable with an approach (with any character) that you can easily spot dodge punish an attack that comes out as fast Dk's bair and has the range and relatively good cooldown time that it does, the person being punished is not playing right. DK's bair is not that punishable. He also significantly outranges Link on the ground, and is borderline unpunishable there while putting Link in the danger zone.

Link doesn't go even with Marth, does he?

Well if you see a DK SH'ing towards you with his back turned... it dosn't take a genius to figure out what comes next...

And no. No one counters Marth

 

[Steeler]

And no. No one counters Marth

blatant, foolish lies.

meta knight counters all.

 

[Justblaze647]

blatant, foolish lies.

meta knight counters all.

hey, hey now... no need rain on my Marth parade...

 

[gameandwatch 4 Lyfe]

um does anyone pay any mind to ness's matchups? cuz id say at least half of them are wrong. ness destroys ddd and it is listed here as ddd's advantage. i know no one cares about ness but come on, if your gonna do this do it right

no one responds to this genius????????

 

[ShadowLink84]

I don't see a DK match discussion in the Link boards, so I'll assume that's your opinion.

Seems like the range + speed on DK's bair, tilts and fsmash (range mostly) would wreck Link. Why do you say that's a joke?

The Fsmash is slower tahn link's let alone the fact its disjointed so if the moves collide guess whose getting sent through the air?

Considering also that Link's Zair is greater in range than DK's Bair as well as it has littlel ag the Bair isn't a major issue.
What is an issue is when DK is upclose which can be difficult considering his size.

Link is adept at maintaining spacing and with his bombs, boomerang and Zair he can make it tough for DK to get close.

DK does have an advantage but by no means is it a hard counter.

 

[Jigglypoof]

Uhh... Bowser has an advantage on Jigglypuff? No way. =X Once Jigglypuff has Bowser in the air, Bowser is screwed.

She has fatser, and better aerials, it's very easy to see Bowser's attacks coming, and he is a huge Drill-rest and WoP target. Bowser is VERY easy to handle with Jigglypuff and is one of her BEST match-ups, not a disadvantage.

 

[jorge199494]

ness nd ike neutral hmm...wtf lol i hate ike

 

[Flayl]

Uhh... Bowser has an advantage on Jigglypuff? No way. =X Once Jigglypuff has Bowser in the air, Bowser is screwed.

She has fatser, and better aerials, it's very easy to see Bowser's attacks coming, and he is a huge Drill-rest and WoP target. Bowser is VERY easy to handle with Jigglypuff and is one of her BEST match-ups, not a disadvantage.

"lol he's big and slow instant 10-0"

No.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Uhh... Bowser has an advantage on Jigglypuff? No way. =X Once Jigglypuff has Bowser in the air, Bowser is screwed.

She has fatser, and better aerials, it's very easy to see Bowser's attacks coming, and he is a huge Drill-rest and WoP target. Bowser is VERY easy to handle with Jigglypuff and is one of her BEST match-ups, not a disadvantage.

One word... fair.

Bowser's fair outranges and outprioritizes her entire moveset.

Bowser is actually rather effective in this game, though against a lot of projectile users, he's screwed.

 

[BrianTheLion]

it all depends on the person playing

 

[Tenki]

I honestly think that most people who believe themselves to have advantages over CF/Sonic/Ike/Ganon/Bowser only think so because they haven't fought good players who main those characters. It's as if every character can 'play safely' and avoid wasting moves and leaving themselves open except for those characters because of their 'priority' or 'speed'. Excuse the hyperboles, but for example, Captain Falcon has an infinite chaingrab>knee on Wario. I guess that means it should be a heavy advantage for Wario. Oh! But Wario can play safe and play an aerial game to avoid grabs! Ike's moves like his F-smash are so laggy, and he's so tall! lol everyone has advantage on Ike. It's not like Ike can play it safe with jab cancels and F/N-air or anything like that.

 

[gantrain05]

Uhh... Bowser has an advantage on Jigglypuff? No way. =X Once Jigglypuff has Bowser in the air, Bowser is screwed.

She has fatser, and better aerials, it's very easy to see Bowser's attacks coming, and he is a huge Drill-rest and WoP target. Bowser is VERY easy to handle with Jigglypuff and is one of her BEST match-ups, not a disadvantage.

bowser wrecks jiggs, SHFair to jab or Ftilt, not to mention jiggs is spending so much time in the air she's a floating shield grab target, which can be grab released into a Ftilt or Fair if they jump break.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Bowser is quite a good character. Just 'cuz nobody places well with him doesn't mean he sucks.

 

[Flayl]

People did place with him better than 15/14 other characters (he was at 22/23 of the rankings list before Ankoku took it down).

 

[Justblaze647]

His only flaw is that his defensive capabilities exceed his offensive potential...

 

[adumbrodeus]

I honestly think that most people who believe themselves to have advantages over CF/Sonic/Ike/Ganon/Bowser only think so because they haven't fought good players who main those characters. It's as if every character can 'play safely' and avoid wasting moves and leaving themselves open except for those characters because of their 'priority' or 'speed'. Excuse the hyperboles, but for example, Captain Falcon has an infinite chaingrab>knee on Wario. I guess that means it should be a heavy advantage for Wario. Oh! But Wario can play safe and play an aerial game to avoid grabs! Ike's moves like his F-smash are so laggy, and he's so tall! lol everyone has advantage on Ike. It's not like Ike can play it safe with jab cancels and F/N-air or anything like that.

You need a safe move to "play safely". Safe is not subjective, moves have a certain number of frames, cause a certain amount of shieldstun, ect.


Against certain characters, other characters simply cannot play safely. Captain falcon is probably the worst offender in this, too much ending and start-up lag. And good luck getting a grab against a spacially aware wario (aka, anyone good). Wario's superb aerial manueverability makes this nearly impossible unless wario screws up.


As for Ike, it varies, he's generally got a lot of range, but he's definately underrated. Can he play it safe? In some match-ups, yes. In others, no. Jab is godly, nair is generally safe, fair... sometimes.

Obviously, some match-up discussions have this bias. But generally speaking, Captain Falcon is a "I've got a disadvantage over the entire cast!" waiting to happen.


So, really, check the moveset, Captain Falcon cannot really play it safe (in just about any match-up I can think of) because he lacks the moveset, but it's all moveset based.

His only flaw is that his defensive capabilities exceed his offensive potential...

Basically... just like Ganondorf.

 

[Tenki]

You need a safe move to "play safely". Safe is not subjective, moves have a certain number of frames, cause a certain amount of shieldstun, ect.


Against certain characters, other characters simply cannot play safely. Captain falcon is probably the worst offender in this, too much ending and start-up lag. And good luck getting a grab against a spacially aware wario (aka, anyone good). Wario's superb aerial manueverability makes this nearly impossible unless wario screws up.


As for Ike, it varies, he's generally got a lot of range, but he's definately underrated. Can he play it safe? In some match-ups, yes. In others, no. Jab is godly, nair is generally safe, fair... sometimes.

Obviously, some match-up discussions have this bias. But generally speaking, Captain Falcon is a "I've got a disadvantage over the entire cast!" waiting to happen.


So, really, check the moveset, Captain Falcon cannot really play it safe (in just about any match-up I can think of) because he lacks the moveset, but it's all moveset based.



Basically... just like Ganondorf.

Yeah, I originally meant it for Ike/Bowser/Ganondorf (the "slow 3") but I kind of threw the Falcon/Sonic in there because they have a different range of problems/attributes, but I can't speak so much for Falcon there. lol.

 

[Flayl]

I can agree with bowser's defense >>> offense. But the main thing about Bowser is that he isn't as slow as everybody thinks he is. Klaw jump FAirs, Klaw jump Klaws, Jabs, Fortress and Ftilts are his main forms of approach. Out of those 5 only 1 could be considered slow.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yeah, I originally meant it for Ike/Bowser/Ganondorf (the "slow 3") but I kind of threw the Falcon/Sonic in there because they have a different range of problems.

Ahhh.

Totally depends on the match-up. Dtilt's IASA frames for Ganondorf actually make it a pretty safe poking move, depending on the match-up (ex. useless against Marth).

Regardless, the point is that some characters can play it safe, others... can't, it all depends on the match-up and their moveset, and it's on an ad hoc basis.


Unfortunately biases obscure the actual facts of the match-up a lot of the time.

 

[Justblaze647]

I can agree with bowser's defense >>> offense. But the main thing about Bowser is that he isn't as slow as everybody thinks he is. Klaw jump FAirs, Klaw jump Klaws, Jabs, Fortress and Ftilts are his main forms of approach. Out of those 5 only 1 could be considered slow.

The problem isn't being slow... it's being predictable...

 

[Flayl]

The problem isn't being slow... it's being predictable...

Klaw says hello.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Flayl, don't you think you underrate Bowser offensive capabilities?

 

[Flayl]

Compared to the rest of the cast? No, not really.

 

[Ussi]

Mostly everyone underestimates a low tier character EVEN IF they main a low tier character.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Thats cause low tier sucks apparently. =(

 

[Flayl]

Everything below the top of mid tier is a popularity contest. There is so few hard evidence in tournaments/videos of decent players that judging the matchups becomes difficult and a little too theoretical.

 

[PhantomX]

Play Warriorknight sometime and tell me Bowser is inadequate. All it takes is one good mindgame from a Bowser for you to die, lol.

 

[Tenki]

Play Warriorknight sometime and tell me Bowser is inadequate. All it takes is one good mindgame from a Bowser for you to die, lol.

lol mindgames are player abilities.

You can probably say the same thing about Ike and Ganondorf, too.


Also, your avatar reminds me of a behelit.

A Wario behelit is kind of disturbing.

 

[adumbrodeus]

lol mindgames are player abilities.

You can probably say the same thing about Ike and Ganondorf, too.


Also, your avatar reminds me of a behelit.

A Wario behelit is kind of disturbing.

Not quite. Some characters are more naturally inclined to it.

Others are better at utilizing them.


Those factors must be taken into account, still the fundamentals are always there.

 

[PhantomX]

I meant that to go hand in hand with Bowser's options. Bowser has many options on the ledge, which can punish you immensely... and he's very very good at tapping that potential. He's a bit more stunted on the stage. Ganondorf is like... eh anywhere. His only offstage option is side b or upair, really, and he's unbelievably slow and lacks an airgrab as Bowser does. Hence, Bowser can mindgame you infinitely easier, and it hurts like a *****.

 

[Tenki]

Not quite. Some characters are more naturally inclined to it.

Others are better at utilizing them.


Those factors must be taken into account, still the fundamentals are always there.

I like that line of thinking since it makes matchup discussions much more reflective of reality instead of theorycraft.

it'd be nice, so nice ;d

 

[ShadowLink84]

>_>
Tenki you're too happy.

 

[Tenki]

>_>
Tenki you're too happy.

I didn't have to deal with people like the first link in my sig today.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I like that line of thinking since it makes matchup discussions much more reflective of reality instead of theorycraft.

it'd be nice, so nice ;d

It's part of theorycraft actually.

But good theorycraft that is actually reflective of reality at top level play will take this fact into account.


Basically, if your theorycraft isn't reflecting reality one of two things is going on, either nobody's at the top level of play (think Yoshi now) or your theorycraft didn't account for these technical abilities.


Sonic is a perfect example of a character naturally inclined towards mindgames, because a lot of his moves have properties that allow you to exercise additional control and your options when you have done this have unique counters.


Basically, if your theory is good enough, if the players exist to apply it, it should reflect reality.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The issue with this is that many people often ignore it. Primarily because of pre-existing biases or simply because they feel that mindgame potential simply should not account for much.

This was a primary issue concerning discussions in matchups concerning Sonic.
Not once has anyone really addressed Sonic's capabilities mindgame wise regardless of how strong the argument may be.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The issue with this is that many people often ignore it. Primarily because of pre-existing biases or simply because they feel that mindgame potential simply should not account for much.

This was a primary issue concerning discussions in matchups concerning Sonic.
Not once has anyone really addressed Sonic's capabilities mindgame wise regardless of how strong the argument may be.

Which is incorrect of their part.


Bait and punish capability is the reason why Captain Falcon pulled high tier in the first place (melee of course). Brawl's Sonic should also have this accounted for.

Granted, it may or may not be enough to change a match-up depending on the situation.

 

[ShadowLink84]

That is true but I speak generically. For the most part Sonic's mindgame capabilities tend to be ignored which is rather disappointing. That was why i ceased going to cahracter boards asking about the matchup.
not only did they tend to be ignorant of what Sonic can do , they were also choosing to ignore many points made.

I also have a feeling it may be similar in the SBR <_<