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Brawl Character Match-Up chart

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Tenki

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Which is incorrect of their part.


Bait and punish capability is the reason why Captain Falcon pulled high tier in the first place (melee of course). Brawl's Sonic should also have this accounted for.

Granted, it may or may not be enough to change a match-up depending on the situation.
When people start to say "speed doesn't mean **** in Brawl" when we try to bring up how we can do things like outrunning tornado, or running in and reaching a really small window of landing lag from an otherwise safe aerial, or force people to commit to an airdodge/attack that can be punished if missed, or just running under someone who's trying to space with aerials and shielding - when using a high-charged ASC (that, upon landing, would reach the opponent in under half a second) but cancelling it upon landing, making it possible to punish a defensive movement-

when that's taken out of the equation, I just lie in matchup/character discussions concerning Sonic.

example:
"Well, mindgames taken out of the equation, ______ this should be 65:35 against Sonic =D"
 

adumbrodeus

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Tl;dr: People are just blatantly ignorant and often choose to remain that way.

I summarized what tenki said.
When people start to say "speed doesn't mean **** in Brawl" when we try to bring up how we can do things like outrunning tornado, or running in and reaching a really small window of landing lag from an otherwise safe aerial, or force people to commit to an airdodge/attack that can be punished if missed, or just running under someone who's trying to space with aerials and shielding - when using a high-charged ASC (that, upon landing, would reach the opponent in under half a second) but cancelling it upon landing, making it possible to punish a defensive movement-

when that's taken out of the equation, I just lie in matchup/character discussions concerning Sonic.

example:
"Well, mindgames taken out of the equation, ______ this should be 65:35 against Sonic =D"
It's really more a bad reaction against stupid people who insist that mindgames mean every move can and will hit.

Too many people acted like mindgames made moves like Ike's f-smash very useable.

To counter this, people began discounting mindgames from match-ups, not realizing some characters are actually BETTER at them.

Now this has come back to haunt us.
 

gantrain05

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i respect you sonic mains, i used to be one of those "sonic for bottom tier" guys til i finally played a good one at my last tourney, he was sick with his lag punishing i couldn't really get many safe attacks, he beat all my mains except peach cuz i guess its hard to punish peach's lag since every one of her moves pretty much autocancel into another lol.
 

ROOOOY!

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I always figured that mindgames and such should be factored in to match ups.
Not in a general sense, like the opponent is going to fall for every trap, but more the safeness, effectiveness, and multitude of ways Sonic has of effectively screwing with the mind of the opponent.
A lot of the safeness revolves around the fact that a lot of his moves can be shield cancelled. He has a lot of ways to mix it up too. I know it's player specific, but a Sonic main can go to town with probably the biggest amount of mindgaming tools that anyone has in the game with him.
I've heard that mindgame potential was factored in in melee match-ups, specifically affecting Falcon and such. Why not Brawl? If anything, this game is MORE focused on mindgames compared to melee because Brawl has no exploitable AT's to abuse and overpower lesser people, so you have to think more and set traps. This is particularly true of Sonic.
Final thing to say on the matter is that match ups should be based on high level play. As in, a high level Sonic player will be setting more traps and playing more mindgames, and although the opponent will be more savvy to them and avoid them more, they would still feature prominently, though when playing a character like Sonic as I said before will probably not suffer through a good piece of reading. Basically, we should assume they are good Sonic players, like we should assume that the opponent is good too. For me, an ASC cancel into a double-taked grab from Sonic should be no different than say..an advancing bair approach from Luigi. They're both natural things to do. A lot of Sonic's so called 'mindgames' aren't really mindgames at all, people just bandy the phrase around whenever they manage to pull off a fully charged fsmash off on someone or some crap.
We should take this into account, natural things for a high level Sonic to do, rather than presume they're going to be scrubby and dash attack/spindash backwards and forwards across the screen with little else in between.


Anyway, Sonic is not at a disadvantage to Pit. We discussed it on their boards a few weeks ago. It's pretty much neutral.
 

rehab

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Rob's range close to universally beats out Mario onstage and offstage, due to better recovery and airgame, Mario is relatively likely to get gimped. Rob also works a lot less to kill Mario, and I'd think he outcamps him.
 

Snowstalker

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That's an excaption.

Let's take Yoshi. The entire community has known for quite a while that he beats Wario, Olimar, and has an almost even matchup with MK, close enough to be considered a neutral on the chart. But IvanEva has stated that he hates Yoshi, and that bias is clearly getting in the way. In fact, the newest change for Yoshi (even with Link, when it's really a disadvantage) made it even LESS accurate!
 

ShikaChef

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I am probably the last person to realize this change, but why are all MK's neutral matchups gone now and replaced with the dreaded advantage sign?
 

Endless Nightmares

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Thank you for being so right.
If you look closely, you will see that Marth loses to Snake. Mission failed. :laugh:

But a lot of this does look like "well char X is higher than char Y so he has an advantage"

*Unsubscribing for various reasons.
 

Ruse

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If you look closely, you will see that Marth loses to Snake. Mission failed. :laugh:

But a lot of this does look like "well char X is higher than char Y so he has an advantage"

*Unsubscribing for various reasons.
That was sort of the point that I was making.
 

IvanEva

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But IvanEva has stated that he hates Yoshi, and that bias is clearly getting in the way.
I don't hate Yoshi, I just like to ***** about how much I hate Yoshi's Island DS. It's not bias that's getting in the way, it's lack of seeing how Yoshi has an advantage against whatever characters you feel he beats. As much as I try, I can't seem to find any videos that show Yoshi kicking *** against a player who clearly knows what he's doing.

I am probably the last person to realize this change, but why are all MK's neutral matchups gone now and replaced with the dreaded advantage sign?
With the possible exception of Snake's up-tilt (counts as its own character) those other neutral match-ups really haven't been holding up as well as I'd like them to.

Please change Yoshi v MK to neutral. I was skeptical first, but now I fully agree with it.
Chaingrab to fair = GG.
I'm still skeptical. Landing that initial grab is a problem. Yoshi's pivot is great but a Metaknight who knows that that's the biggest thing to look out for will be a difficult one to catch. As well, and this definitly could just be me, but I find landing the spike to be very difficult. Back to training mode I should go?

This chart makes Lucario look like a low tier character hahaha
No it doesn't. Nine disadvantages isn't too bad. Which do you disagree with?
 

IvanEva

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLVDn_TySss
yoshi can do good, usually until the opponent learns his game, then it gets alot harder for yoshi
Awesome video! That's what I've been looking for. Your sentence there sums up how I feel about the match-up exactly.

A question concerning those matches: I thought that the spike after the chain grab was guaranteed or something, wasn't it? That Yoshi player was spot on (but was a bit too reckless on Smashville I think) but not once did he try and spike Metaknight after a ledge chain grab. I thought that was what made it so powerful. Also, shouldn't he have up-smashed more often when he couldn't continue the grabs (especially since he wasn't going for the spikes)? I mean, the grab itself doesn't do much damage. The Yoshi knew what he was doing so why didn't he follow up like the Yoshi mains keep claiming they should? I know it was casuals so was he simply experimenting?
 

Tenki

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If what I've read recently is correct, the F-air to spike has to be a grabrelease > walk-off F-air.

Otherwise (eg, done from a jump) it's escapable.

So that said, since it needs to come from a grabrelease, the placement has to be spot on for it.
 

Mmac

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No, What I've been saying is that he needs to be on the correct position from the ledge in order for it to work. Why he didn't do it I don't know because he ended up on it four times! (Twice on the first set, Twice on the third set)

There was several flaws with this Yoshi though, that could have easily won his matches

1. He didn't DJAD (Double Jump Airdodge) ONCE out of his entire set! That could have prevented so many Edgeguarding punishments by MetaKnight, and an important part of his recovery! I am really getting tired of Yoshi's doing nothing with their Double Jump and completely rely on their Armour! It just doesn't work!

2. He never really took advantaged on his releases. If he wasn't going to end with a Usmash, he should have just done a Dash to Jab combo instead. Most of the time he just Dthrowed, which comes to....

3. If you aren't going to Tech Chase with Dthrow, then it's pointless!

4. Some of the time, he could have break the tornado from top with an Nair. However he just.... did nothing but go back to the tornado....

5 Physically Edgeguarding MetaKnight offstage is a HUGE nono! What you see is the result of why you shouldn't do it!

6. Overall, he just made several poor choices, especially in the later matches.

7. He killed himself.....

He's defentally not the worst Yoshi out there, but he's lacking so much common knowledge of his character that sets him back considerably. Plus isn't MDK one of the better MetaKnights out there?
 

IvanEva

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(I know it's super subjective but...) Who's currently considered to be the highest level Yoshi player? I mean, there can't be that many of you so somebody should be standing out, right? That Yoshi player in that match was obviously good but, as you pointed out, not flawless. Is there anybody who we can all look at as the exemplary Yoshi?
 

Ray_Kalm

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How is Ganondorf neutral against Link and Jigglypuff? You seriously have no idea on those match-ups.
Jigglypuff's aerial speed and aerial game out beats Ganon. Link could space himself so perfectly against Ganondorf that it's not even funny.

Those matchups should be a bad disadvantage for Ganon.
 

gantrain05

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How is Ganondorf neutral against Link and Jigglypuff? You seriously have no idea on those match-ups.
Jigglypuff's aerial speed and aerial game out beats Ganon. Link could space himself so perfectly against Ganondorf that it's not even funny.

Those matchups should be a bad disadvantage for Ganon.
meh, not really, jiggs actually isn't that much of a pain, you just gotta play really really defensive, if jiggs is in the air you know what she's gonna do, Fair, Bair, or pound, you just space it and counter, i believe all of ganons arials have priority over jiggs but i could be wrong. but as for link, i dunno i dont see it either, link can wreck ganon, maybe cuz of links bad recovery, and ganons ability to knock ppl off stage at rediculously low percents, even with a jab lol.
 

Clai

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meh, not really, jiggs actually isn't that much of a pain, you just gotta play really really defensive, if jiggs is in the air you know what she's gonna do, Fair, Bair, or pound, you just space it and counter, i believe all of ganons arials have priority over jiggs but i could be wrong. but as for link, i dunno i dont see it either, link can wreck ganon, maybe cuz of links bad recovery, and ganons ability to knock ppl off stage at rediculously low percents, even with a jab lol.
For Jiggs, you should also mention that she has a horrendous ground game, and Ganondorf's Flame Choke will make sure she gets to the ground. And she will get killed very, very early. This should stay at neutral.

As for Link, I wouldn't mind this being a disadvantage. I can't say too much that would give this matchup neutrality.
 

Mmac

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(I know it's super subjective but...) Who's currently considered to be the highest level Yoshi player? I mean, there can't be that many of you so somebody should be standing out, right? That Yoshi player in that match was obviously good but, as you pointed out, not flawless. Is there anybody who we can all look at as the exemplary Yoshi?
Bwett, Bigman, and Furbs, Those three from what I've seen are the Better Yoshi's out there. Green Ace is also excellent from what I've heard, but he hangs out at AiB and doesn't come here. There's also Yoster, and Yoshinaitor, but I haven't seen them play yet...

How about you Mmac?
Well I'm stuck on a crappy Island, so unless you take online into account or my community of.... oh 14 people (Which 11 Suck), then I'm pretty much screwed...
 

Low Rider1717

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honestly i believe Bowser should have an even match-up with Lucario
he can kill him quickly and rack up damage quickly with his breath
 

TKD

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This chart is freaking awesome. Some changes may be made. I play MK, Fox and IC, so about those...

MK's matchups are well charted (but of course).

As for Fox's matchups:
Snake's neutral
Zamus is really bad for Fox.

And IC...here goes...
Neutral with Diddy Kong
Advantage on Lucario (at least neutral)
Advantage on Kirby
Disadvantage against Peach
Advantage on Pit
Neutral with Toon Link

It'd be great of you to fix those two character's matchups. Not that you need my approval, but it'd be really nice.

I agree with the overall list now. I didn't use to. Needs only minor fixes. Keep it up!
 
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