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Brawl Character Match-Up chart

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VersatileBJN

Smash Ace
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It's a grab move, and AFAIK, grab moves don't trigger Counter moves and either pass through invincibility frames or grab them out of vulnerability frames.
I know that lmao.

I was saying that even bringing up flame choke going through counter is a stupid point.

Good Ikes don't really use counter that much at all. That's like me saying forward smash can punish Warlock punch. So what?

Gleam, you don't know what you're talking about. That's the tsk tsk in all of this.

Forward tilt does not ruin Ike's recovery. To anyone who thinks this... playing bad ones I repeat.

Powershielding works vs all characters. If you space with Ike, you can power shield fair and still be safe. Not to mention just relying on power shielding all day will not work against an Ike who is good. You can do empty jump fakes and...I dunno..actually grab? Also not to mention Ganondorf can be power shielded too.

Stop looking at "statistics" and play people.
 

VersatileBJN

Smash Ace
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Messages
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and for extra lolz. to quote my homie shadow link

"I highly doubt you use Sonic well if you think he is a bad character.
Ask any of the Sonic mains including myself.
The only bad thing Sonic has is his lack of priority."

Yeah, that's totally not a big deal. That's nothing that would...I dunno...make a character suck...
 

Tenki

Smash Hero
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^Playing defensively, moves don't meet each other often, really. But I'll entertain your thought and say this:

If a Sonic tries to attack someone during their attack, and decides to directly attack at their attack hitbox, he won't be breaking through it.

As for when he attacks around their attack box or when they're not attacking? Well, priority doesn't really matter then, does it?

Metaknight's Prioritornado has a weak spot in the top/middle. Almost all attacks have something like this.

Forward tilt does not ruin Ike's recovery. To anyone who thinks this... playing bad ones I repeat.
They're talking about single hits, not tactics. "Good" and "Bad" players have little to do with the question of F-tilt and whether or not Ike can recover from it.

It's a single hit that launches low and far.

Low and far. Isn't that exactly the situation that Ike has problems recovering from? Side-B needs height to charge enough to recover horizontally, and Up-B is strictly a vertical recovery.
 

Gleam

Smash Ace
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Burlington, NC
I know that lmao.

I was saying that even bringing up flame choke going through counter is a stupid point.

Good Ikes don't really use counter that much at all. That's like me saying forward smash can punish Warlock punch. So what?

Gleam, you don't know what you're talking about. That's the tsk tsk in all of this.

Forward tilt does not ruin Ike's recovery. To anyone who thinks this... playing bad ones I repeat.

Powershielding works vs all characters. If you space with Ike, you can power shield fair and still be safe. Not to mention just relying on power shielding all day will not work against an Ike who is good. You can do empty jump fakes and...I dunno..actually grab? Also not to mention Ganondorf can be power shielded too.

Stop looking at "statistics" and play people.
Actually. I think I know exactly what I'm talking about. Want me to elaborate, I'd be glad to.

OMFG, Ganondorf can grab too!

Flame choke going through counter is stupid? No. In fact its a very valid point.

Ganondorf can power shield more easiy than Ike due to the same reasons I've given multiple times. Lag.

If Ganon F-tilts Ike at the end of a stage when Ike's a little over 70%, he's dead. He won't have enough room to recovery.

Statistics actually have a very power impact. Playing online isn't going to do a lot, especially since there's such a wide variety of players, good and bad. How do you think a Melee match up would go? Just get a bunch of the best tourney players let them wack each other to see who beats who? Statistics will always remain the same until players utilize character and dig deeper into them. If anything, Statistics are the balance, the players are the weights.
---

On a seperate note and answer to the Yoshi KOing Ganon at 80% with Down Smash. It doesn't. It doesn't even KO at 80% when used as a full powered Smash attack.

If it did that would be quite something for Yoshi.
 

ShadowLink84

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and for extra lolz. to quote my homie shadow link

"I highly doubt you use Sonic well if you think he is a bad character.
Ask any of the Sonic mains including myself.
The only bad thing Sonic has is his lack of priority."

Yeah, that's totally not a big deal. That's nothing that would...I dunno...make a character suck...
I do hope you aren't poking fun at me Versatile.
If you are it only shows your ignorance.

Where did I say its not a big deal?
None of my statements insinuated such a thing.

The lack of priority really means that Sonic's game MUST be unpredictable. Defensive play can solve the issue with clashing attacks butI find he does his best work when he is offensive and not playing defensively. (though in some matchups defensive play is his best option but we'll assume offensive sonic)

Due to the lack of priority it limits the situations in which he can use his kill moves.
As such characters such as Luigi really don't suffer such an issue since they aren't running as great a risk when they go on the offensive against another character. They have the option of taking an opponent head on. SOnic never can do such a thing as fight an opponent head on.
He has to usually manuever himself so that when he attacks he outranges the opponent and therefore breaks through(aerial) or has the lesser risk of clanking (ground wise).

If you look at MK for example who has great priority and lack of kill moves.
He is the only character that can be compared to Sonic the best
. He pressures, chases the opponent off the edge, has good approaches and combos.

Many of his moves push through his opponents attack. As such its easier for him to set up a situation to use a quick Dsmash or Fsmash. The risk of his opponent pushing through his own attacks are minimal with the worst case scenario being they clank against each other.
For Sonic they don't usually clank, he takes the hit not his opponent. He doesn't need to manipulate spacing so greatly nor does he have to worry if his opponent has attacks that cover their body. i.e. ROB's Nair.

His strongest moves are telegraphed so an opponent can either dodge, or meet his attack with their own and break through it.

If his Bair had great priority like that of ROB, he can afford to use it, because his opponent MUST dodge it or move away.
They wouldn't have the option of dodging to remove hitstun and then attacking and turning easing the pressure off that Sonic is placing on them.

Granted a defensive sonic doesn't have to deal with the issue of priority much if at all since they concentrate on spacing and aren't placing themselves at a great risk.
My sonic isn't too defensive unless the matchup benefits defense and even then I tend to screw up.
Perhaps I need to practice more on defense but even then I feel that the lack of priority can be hurtful at times.
I also think that when Sonic is on the offense he is at his most capable and most situations don't require him to play defensively.


Respect your elders nub.
I shouldn't have to repeat myself again.
 

IvanEva

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your over exagerating on ike's ability... which is expected i guess.. you main him.. many people fight for their mains to be best...
But only Ike fights for his friends.

yehhh... ike>samus definitely. It's kinda weird to put samus>ike.
I was also among the overwhelming majority that had yet to fight a decent Ike. Ike is a character that is so easy to be bad with; Sonic is another. I had felt that Samus' grapple beam coupled with her charge shot was enough to give her the advantage. Ike is grapple beam fodder but that's about it. I was just under the impression long ago that that would be enough.

I think Captain Falcon is better than Ganondorf, but that's just me >_>
It's not just you at all. Captain Falcon has an easy time following the opponent into the air and up-airing/ forward airing them. His up-b recovery is godly this time around (for reaching the stage at least). As well, while the knee is much harder to land, you wouldn't think so if you've played against a good Brawl Falcon. I'm off the opinion that too many people jumped ship from Captain Falcon that they didn't bother learning how to use him in Brawl. Yes, he's low, but he's still able to hang with everybody except the highs. Plus, unlike some other ****** captains, Falcon is so cool that they had to put 'Captain' in front of his name on the character select screen.

G&W Does not have a big advantage on lucas. a smart lucas player will not use PKT, he will just zap jump to magnet pull, which gets him back much faster anyways. and if G&W buckets PKF its a free hit for Lucas because of the lag after bucketing. I would say that they are neutral.
Lucas has nothing on Game and Watch. Nothing. Not a god**** thing (why the hell is **** a censored word!? Can people possibly be that sensitive?). Zero. Ziltch. This is the single match-up that I've played the most and I'm always looking for things to use against Game and Watch but the fact is that Game and Watch ***** Lucas.

I like how you know about the bucket punishment though. It's how I try to finish Game and Watch's final stock: when he's at a killing percentage (which is pretty low but as Lucas it's **** hard to get him to it) I PK Fire like mad to get him to bucket. If he falls for it I run in, grab and down-throw. You'll always have enough time to run and throw if he buckets from a little bit less than max PK Fire distance. However, that's more the Game and Watch giving you that kill rather than Lucas getting it himself. You can only fool someone so many times.

...can we get a sticky on this thread?!
I'm flattered that you feel it's sticky worthy. I don't think it is just yet though. Not until I feel 100% confident on almost all of the match-ups.

THE CHART, IT IS FINISHED!!!

Well done, sir.
It's closer for sure, but it's still far from done. :dizzy:

My "for every correct match up there's a wrong match up" comment was overboard. There definitely seems to be more right mathc ups than bad ones, but still not enough to be used as reference for discussing tiers.
No worries. It's slowly coming together. :)

Wow. Poor Bowser. Snake seems to have many advantages.
And it looks like it'll only be getting worse. I'm sure that some of those are large advantages...

Again, my apologies for being slower than Jigglypuff's running speed on updating the chart. It's just as well though as by playing a bunch of other people my views on match-ups keep getting increasingly refined. While this latest update 'fixed' a bunch of match-ups, I openly acknowledge that there's still some more ones that need to be changed. Dedede's in particular. I'll check out all those later on. Oh yes, who else murder-grabs Ness?
 

zamz

Smash Journeyman
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Falco should have a large advantage against Ike, bowser and Captain Falcon.
 

Rapid_Assassin

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As much as I hate to argue against Yoshi, would anyone mind explaining why Yoshi has an advantage against Olimar?
I think that matchup is even, and requires a bit of getting used to for both players. Olimar needs to use tilts and aerials way more in this matchup than against many other characters, because Yoshi can beat his smashes, and is better at killing pikmin than most random characters are.
 

VersatileBJN

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^Playing defensively, moves don't meet each other often, really. But I'll entertain your thought and say this:

If a Sonic tries to attack someone during their attack, and decides to directly attack at their attack hitbox, he won't be breaking through it.

As for when he attacks around their attack box or when they're not attacking? Well, priority doesn't really matter then, does it?

Metaknight's Prioritornado has a weak spot in the top/middle. Almost all attacks have something like this.



They're talking about single hits, not tactics. "Good" and "Bad" players have little to do with the question of F-tilt and whether or not Ike can recover from it.

It's a single hit that launches low and far.

Low and far. Isn't that exactly the situation that Ike has problems recovering from? Side-B needs height to charge enough to recover horizontally, and Up-B is strictly a vertical recovery.
Priority doesn't matter when punishing for the most part, yes, but you are acting like players are going to leave themselves open all day. Priority is a huge deal. It's what seperates good characters from bad charaters almost all the time in any fighting game.

Even when Sonic DOES punish it's normally a weak move. He has no go to KO move at 100% or lower pretty much. There are other characters like that. ROB, Pikachu,Meta Knight, Peach,Luigi and Yoshi for example. The difference? They all have lots of priority, allowing them to build up damage rather easily(not just by punishing)

As for Ganondorf's forward tilt, when I said it doesn't stop Ike from recovering, I was referring to Ganondorf using it as a move to stop Quick Draw or something along the lines of that. Ike getting back on the stage if smart should not have to worry about forward tilt.

As for when it knocks him off at high percentages, yes, I know that. Did you know that forward tilt works like that for many other character? Luigi, Peach, Captain Falcon, Olimar, Falco, Fox and Wolf all have the same problem. Does it stop them from all having advantages over Ganondorf? No. It is not an overwhelming move. It's punishable and non spammable.

You act as if I say Ganondorf can't beat Ike or any other character. I am not saying that, I am saying that the Ganondorf is fighting an uphill battle in which he must play smarter and make way less mistakes than the opponent. Ganondorf can beat Ike. This isn't a shock if it occurs. All I am saying is that it's a disadvantage. Ike can space too well, making getting near Ike a problem in itself, and up close Jab outpirotizes anything Ganondorf is looking to do. Ganondorf lacks any move that has range and can be used to space. There's way more to the match up, but I'd rather not into detail when whatever I say will just be denied(see empy)
 

VersatileBJN

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To Shadow Link, see empy's post for why Ike beats Sonic. I'm not gonna read through all that. I stopped right when you compared Sonic to Meta Knight. I will say that a good sonic crushes a mediocre Ike. Like my dude at the top of the page said, it's easy to suck with Ike.

As for matches with good Sonics, I'll probably record and put some up. Looking forward to fighting Blue Terroist.
 

DarkStraw

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I main olimar so im going to give my thoughts on the matchups with characters ive played.

I agree that iceclimbers are hard for olimar...i use throws alot as olimar and iceclimbers tottally screw that up since half the time you grab the wrong one, and either way you get punished for it.

Usually if i concentrait hard i have no problem being IKE. Ive played some good ikes but approaching olimar as ike is very dangerious... and ike has no choice but to approach. He has to approach... and its very easy to punish him when he does. what approaches he can do without getting grabbed or fmashed easily makes him rather predictable.

I havent really had much trouble with kirby...but i dont play against him alot either.

Link/lucasand lucario good matchups for olimar. (good for olimar)
Marth....i play some good marths regularly...and it seems like a hard matchup for olimar... but not too bad... it feels like he has an advantage though.

Havent really had much trouble with ness.

Snake...ive played a real good snake regularly, im not really sure if olimar has an advantage... but its alot easyer to play against snake as olimar than most any other character that ive played with.

Dunno about squirtle... TL is extremely easy... TL or Captain Falcon seem like probably the easyest matchup for olimar...i reguarly 2 stock TL's the only real problem ive had with TL is he has a nice backair.

Wolf is a pain...as ive already said a page or so ago. Yoshi.....i regularly play two people who use yoshi and i would have to say its an even matchup... ive gotten pretty good at grabbing yoshi out of his egg, and out camping yoshi isent a problem. His backair is kind of annoying.
 

Shök

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WOW Marth PWNZ the earthbound boys
Just wanna point out that Marth has an infinite grab on Shiek and Peach.
I'll test out some more.

IMO
Marth>>Peach
Marth>Shiek
Chaingrabz!

Marth>ZSS, Semi Wall of Pain owns her recovery.
Marth>Diddy, Equal speed, Marth is stronger and has higher priority moves. Semi WOP can stunt his recovery too.

Oh, you're right...
Marth>Olimar
 

DanGR

BRoomer
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As much as I hate to argue against Yoshi, would anyone mind explaining why Yoshi has an advantage against Olimar?
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167851&highlight=yoshi

This is the original olimar v yoshi thread in the olimar subforum. It seems to me that the average olimar user has difficulty playing versus yoshi because they're so used to playstyles that are good versus other characters. Olimar's pikmen attacks get mushed by yoshi's egg roll and his dair, but his tilts have rather good priority over yoshis attacks. Many olimar users use the smashes much more than tilts because they don't use them in most matchups. It takes getting used to. Yoshi does, however, have a great edgeguarding game and has aerials that are great versus specifically olimar. It's kinda embarrasing actually...:ohwell:
 

ShadowLink84

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To Shadow Link, see empy's post for why Ike beats Sonic. I'm not gonna read through all that.
Ignorance is bliss.
Care to copy empy's post. I would like to respond to it.
but of course you would probably ignore it as you usually have done.


I stopped right when you compared Sonic to Meta Knight. I will say that a good sonic crushes a mediocre Ike. Like my dude at the top of the page said, it's easy to suck with Ike.
Never said that either so I am curious as to why you keep putting ideas in my mouth.,

You've also disrespected me repeatedly and repeatedly said I have said this or that despite the fact that I haven't.

So do tell me as to why I should even acknowledge your existence?
 

Emblem Lord

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Versa: Reign it in a bit bro.

Ike isn't even good. Why you getting worked up?

lol.
 

KernelColonel

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If there's one thing that Lucas has over G&W, it's his up-smash. Since it's tough to avoid in close quarters, and it has incredible killing power, and G&W is so light, I'm thinking with dodging and DI that Lucas can pull a kill at around 80%...I'll test that fact later
 

ShadowLink84

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Hey versatile remember this post of yours?

versatileBJN said:
No. I understand that Ike is high mid tier/low high tier at best. I am not an ignorant player. As you can see, I put him at a disadvantage vs most characters considered to be top or high tier, and at a neutral/slight advantage over characters I consider him to be near even with or better than...
Bolded part is sooooo correct right Versatile?
versatileBJN said:
Am I saying Ike owns Sonic for free? No, I believe if you take away Snake and Meta Knight that pretty much anyone can beat anyone, and I also believe MANY more characters can beat Snake and MK than most believe. However, I do not believe this is even.
Contradictory statements are fun no?

versatileBJN said:
Actually I can play Ganondorf and Sonic fairly well. I think they're bad characters in relation to the rest of the cast, as does most of the world.

Gleam, it's obvious you've never fought a good Ike if you think Ganondorf beats him.
I find the bolded parts int he last one amusing since it is contradictory to the knowledge you have shown so far.
All you've done is show extremely basic knowledge nothing that takes into account strategy and gameplay.

Or you fall on the 'You haven't played a capable/good Ike".

you mention it repeatedly go back and look.
An yet you refuse to read my post?

HA!
versatileBJN said:
Your observations are biased and flawed, though. This is because you haven't fought an Ike who is capable. You probably haven't fought a Yoshi that is capable either.

Your limited experience forces you to make observations through theories about how you think a move works rather than how it is actually used.

There is no point in trying to explain why Ike beats Ganondorf if you're ignorant to how Ike is played. I've played good Ganondorfs and use him. I know his capabilities and I've fought good ones with Ike. This is not a match up he wins. He has no match up that he wins arguably. They are all up hill battles.

I'm not going to bother elaborating since Empy pretty much outlined all the points and you still fail to realize. You are a perfect example of someone who should not be talking about match ups.
These are all the things you have said so far.
There has been NO explanation no nothing other than saying. you never played a good Ike or capable Ike. You're ignorant. you're this and that.

Your reasoning for not providing any backing towards your argument?
Its in bold.
This is not to mention that the arguments presented by Empy were also under much criticism from Gleam.

Empy also never responded to Sonic vs Ike and if he has I am having issues finding it from pages 83 and current.

Why did I go back so far? To try and find where i said Sonic trounces Ike.
No wait that was Sonic the hedgedawg and he said that the match is not an advantage to Ike on page 83-84

Emblem Lord even responded by saying that Ike has a slight advantage against Sonic due to his ja.
Then promptly went LOL and hasn't responded until this page..

My argument with sonic the hedgedawg concerned Sonic's placement in the tier lists.

But if you want I shall entertain you and respond to an argument of Ike vs. Sonic


Emblem Lord no getting involved I want to see how Versatile handles himself.
Go on I have a good amount of time to wait for an Ike vs Sonic from you.
 

Tenki

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^Empy responded to one of my posts here:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4520776#post4520776

But it ended well (I think) with this:

Yeah I guess we are going in too deep now. Everything is hypothetical this way.

It's annoying I can't find any good Sonics, I'm willing to take one on for sure.

But like I said, the stage will be very important.
Therefore, I say no Ike vs Sonic (or is it SL84 vs VBJN) arguments until the matches are done, posted, analyzed and affirmed for 'good Ike vs good Sonic' and we have an actual 'good' match that can be used to help rank the two characters against each other in actual gameplay.
 

hizzlum

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http://youtube.com/watch?v=8FaV6oizNnQ
WOW Marth PWNZ the earthbound boys
Marth-Semi Wall of Pain
Most of smashboards knew that Marth had a major advantage against the earthbounders about a month ago when they could be infinite grabbed.

Marth in no way has a semi WOP or FOP, most characters need multijumps for that or ROB's b-up and an effective WOP aerial(i.e. MK dair, Jiggs fair/bair), i believe what you are trying to say is that marth has great edgeguarding abilities that gimp recoveries(very true, the easiest way to get kills with him is to put pressure on the edge with his great aerials(MK is a better aerialist though)) however, this is in no way a semi WOP or FOP
 

Kiwikomix

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@ Whoever:
Characters that can WOP: Kirby, Jiggz, Pit, Meta-Knight, ROB
Characters that have multiple jumps but can't WOP: Charizard, Dedede
Characters that can't WOP at all and will never be able to: Marth
 

hizzlum

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http://youtube.com/watch?v=8FaV6oizNnQ
Characters that can WOP: Kirby, Jiggz, Pit, Meta-Knight

Characters that can't WOP at all and will never be able to: Marth
You forgot ROB, and Kirb's is a FOP not a WOP(Kirby's is not good enough to be called a WOP)
What move with pit is a WOP?
What I was trying to tell SHOK is that Marth has no WOP what so ever, not even close to one
 

Emblem Lord

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Kirby does not beat Pit. Marth has slight advantage.

Yeah?

You want some of this UndrDog?!

*Unsheaths the Falchion

LOL.

Zoning and WOP are two different things.

Characters with multiple jumps and good aerials can do repeated aerials to carry you off the stage or edgeguard you.

Zoning is just using good spacing to make a wall with your aerials.

Marth has no WOP, but is arguably the best at zoning in the game, thanks to his combination of speed, range, strength, and low cool down time on his fair.
 

Undrdog

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Whether you think Marth has an advantage against Pit or has a disadvantage, it's still closer to neutral then anything else. Marth succumbs to Pit's mindgames more-so then most, while proper spacing can keep Pit more defensive then he's comfortable with.
 

Emblem Lord

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D..did you just say that Marth succumbs to Pit's mindgames more then most?

What? How could you test something like that? What is the basis of this statement? Something like this can just be thrown out of the window, since BOTH players will be playing smart and using "mindgames".

It's Marth's spacing that really puts it in his favor and the fact that he has better options overall. It's still close, but I give the nod to Marth.
 

Nodrak

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@ Whoever:
Characters that can WOP: Kirby, Jiggz, Pit, Meta-Knight
Characters that have multiple jumps but can't WOP: Charizard, Dedede
Characters that can't WOP at all and will never be able to: Marth
Lucario only has 1 mid-air jump but can fair 4 times, killing someone off the side of the map the same way a WoP would before recovering himself.


Also yeah, a character doesn't succumb to mindgames, the player does.
 

ShadowLink84

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^Empy responded to one of my posts here:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4520776#post4520776

But it ended well (I think) with this:



Therefore, I say no Ike vs Sonic (or is it SL84 vs VBJN) arguments until the matches are done, posted, analyzed and affirmed for 'good Ike vs good Sonic' and we have an actual 'good' match that can be used to help rank the two characters against each other in actual gameplay.
Its that i;ve faced my friends Ike and I have Ike as my secondary.

I am also waiting for versatile since i have yet ot see him place an actual argument other than the psots above.

Tenki it'll be fine. ^_^ No harm no foul.
 

Mr. Escalator

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Ok.
Why did you change the Ness v Olimar to slight disadvantage? After the huge amount of time I put into arguing a slight advantage, the very least you could do is move him to neutral. It's unrealistic to get him in favorable, as so many people are biased against Ness whether they choose to actively acknowledge this or not, but I really feel I made persuasive enough arguments to move him two spaces up into neutral territory.

Did you skip over everything I said, Ivaneva?
Putting him at a disadvantage makes it seem like you ignored my posts.
ANd ignored the thread.

I want him to be at a slight advantage, Ideally, but the very least that could be done is putting Ness in a neutral matchup.

Needless to say, I'm pretty annoyed.
 

Undrdog

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Aug 24, 2004
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Aberdeen
It's kinda hard to explain my reasoning since very few people know how a good Pit is played. I'll withhold any rebuttal. lol
 
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