I was going to disregard most of this (I cut out a lot of useless quotes that dont need to be here), but I guess Im obliged to reply to other things.
I do too. I use other characters sometimes for fun, but I'd never visit other forums to discuss their advanced gameplay if I've never used them. I might point out one or two things in a thread somewhere if it pertains to something I've done though. Say...DDD-I've played him numerous times and I'm beginning to like his playstyle more and more. I posted in this very thread the matchup of DDD v Zelda. I wondered why it had zelda>DDD. I'm still not sure, but I'm not going to argue with my "opposition" over it indepth b/c I'm still not experienced enough.
But I have enough experience to argue this, so whats your point?
I understand he didn't push the point. I am though, and I think he had something going. It's not wrong or incorrect to quote him saying he's in the right if he was indeed in the right. The point I'm making is that it doesn't matter who made the quote as long as it's true.
"as long as its true"? So now his post is the truth?
If you're insisting on taking up his argument, then reply to my response I made to him.
And didnt you say you werent going to pull the experience card again?
You just did by saying you're going to push his point where he stopped.
You're right. I can't claim who is correct from who posted what, but from participating in the olimar threads for over a month nearly every day since brawl came out, I can merely suggest who and who can't make valid arguments regarding olimar. Go ahead and call me a nerd, that's why we're here.
Whether they can make arguments or not doesnt really matter, as none of them did this well (I'll get to that in a bit because you took the time to make a huge post) but what is really relevant is their experience in the matchup. Maybe someone who posted a small sentence about having trouble in the matchup has far more experience than rapid_assassin when it comes to the Mother Boys, despite him being able to make a proper argument. You can't claim that because someone can argue it means they have experience in the matchup.
Wait, wouldnt they be like me then? You shouldn't cite someone who doesnt have the most experience vs Ness.
You cant assume that a better known member knows the matchup better than another just because he has a record of being good at arguing.
ok, I will. I'll bring up every point you made that was picked apart by the experienced players in the matchup-even the points that don't influence the matchup.
First, I ignored the first quote of Rapid_Assassin, BECAUSE it didnt have anything to do with the matchup, and it was merely conjecture on his part to push forward that I may not have experience. He says he's had no trouble, but you cant claim that they were Ness/Lucas with similar skills. So whatever, quoting that did nothing; it's just randomly thrown in there.
Erm, how do you figure? Ok, Ness gets a red pikmin on him that makes it through the pillar. Ness is already out of your range if he's PK firing, so how do you plan to pivot grab, shield grab, usmash, or uair him if he's out of your range? His Nair is quick, and you'd have to approach to do anything, and Ness can just fair at that point. He isnt prone to any of your things when he's out of your range. Thats the point.
How close do you expect Ness to be when you're lobbing off pikmin? He can easily just drop a little more down, and then recover. You're pikmin throw has many blindspots for a falling Ness to take advantage of, and each pikmin is thrown differently, so you CANNOT assume you'll always get the trajectory right and get him. You can't assume you'll magically pluck out a yellow when you finally get him off stage and throw it perfectly.
On this note... In Brawl, the way it's set up is that if you get hit with something that sends you horizontally, you're also sent up, and you can DI up as well. This means that it's rare that Ness will have to use PKT to recover if you just smash him as hard as you can towards the edge. Thanks to this floaty engine, Ness can recover without using his PKT, in most cases.
And even if he has to, I already noted how hard it is to get him.
The argument for the pikmin gimps is really stupid, I believe. It's hard to do and it doesnt change the matchup.
Well, that's very situational, to say the least. Two white pikmin is pretty rare in itself.
What's stopping Ness from avoiding you when you do get a white pikmin, or the white pikmin is the next in the order? It doesnt take much to just be aware of the olimar's pikmin order. It's also obvious if he's purposefully trying to get only certain pikmin, or he's changing his order.
I think that scenario doesn't happen often enough to be considered.
I don't play Ness, and I don't play Olimar.
I do think Ness has the matchup advantage, though.
It's probably who you play, and how you both play that matters in your personal matchup.
If you're accustomed to play on wifi, then I can see Olimar having an easier time in that environment opposed to technical Ness or Lucas players.
Just my thoughts.
If you'd like to play the damage game, if Ness can get a PK fire to actually go off on Olimar, it can lead into a lot of things. Maybe another Pk Fire, Dtilts, Fsmash if they're bad at DIing, any of his aerials, an Usmash, or, most reasonable, his grabs. You can easily start of the match and get 50% if you score a solid hit with the PK fire.
This may occur as much as or more than your scenario. It isnt far fetched to be hit by a pk fire. If it's obvious, yeah, you can shield it, but it's certainly a viable tactic, such is yours.
And because Ness can approach safely, your grabs aren't going to see as much use as they may normally see. They're still going to be integral for the matchup, but Ness can space very well vs Olimar.
I don't main either one, correct, but I'm not clueless about how they play. My older brother plays Ness, and I'm friends with a pretty good Olimar. He gives my G&W a lot of trouble, but Ness seems to manuever easily whenever I watch them play. Before I started arguing Ness having the advantage, I asked a few people I know online about how they felt. One of the best Ness mains I know was shocked that it was listed as a major disadvantage vs Olimar, and he said it was neutral at the least, and he would personally give Ness the advantage.
I originally started arguing that Ness should be neutral, but part way through my original post, I looked more and more into how they both played against each other, and checked out a few properties of Ness' attacks. From what I was looking at, it seemed that Ness would be one of the very few who could successfully approach an Olimar.
I havent assumed the theoretical olimar sucks enough to be caught in all Ness has to offer, and I've really left it open to both sides. My main post dealt with what DanGR brought up, and I also dealt with how a Ness could reduce the effectiveness of Olimar's pikmin game. I havent brought up stupid scenario's like gimping Ness which is very situational, at least, I don't believe I have.
It's up to you guys to argue the good about Olimar. I'm bringing up what I know about Ness and how he can deal with the spaceman.
It really seems that you're implying I lack experience. It's not first hand, except for the basic things I tested in training (Like that with DI, Ness' Bthrow kills sooner than a blue pikmin throw, or the pikmin stopping properties of his attacks), but I'm not clueless.
You seem sort of dense.
Ok, the pikmin is on Ness.
N=Ness
O=Olimar
__N____O__
I'm going to assume this is the range that you're at when you attempt to get the red on them. If you shield grab, where's Ness?
.....N
_______O__
In the air using Nair. You just shielded and grabbed at nothing. It doesn't work.
and if Olimar goes for a pivot grab (wtf?)
.....N
_____O-___
You ran up and did a pivot grab... turning you around... wow...
the only thing that sounds viable is the hyphen smash, and thats still a shot in the dark. You're making a huge underestimation of the speed of Ness' Nair. It's about as fast as Luigi's nair. All the while he's doing this, Ness can move back or forward, or if he sees you going for a hyphen smash, why cant he just fair you?
This is assuming Ness made a SH Nair, which I see as the smart choice.
The Uair beats the Dair, but thats hardly worth noting. No Ness will be using the Dair except when he's going for the spike, OFF STAGE.
Ness' horizontal control is beastly, and he can move during the Nair easily, pulling to the side and punishing you're Uair (And why the hell would you do the Uair? The hyphen smash is asking to get punished in itself, so theres virtually no time that Ness can get hit by the Uair)
Hyphen Smash -> Uair is an awful move to try and pull vs a Ness SHing a Nair.
He can just Jab to knock the pikmin off.
The red pikmin doesnt set ANYTHING up for Olimar.
Theres a problem though.
Olimar has trouble killing,
whereas Ness has no problems killing.
When you get a good deal of damage on Ness, its no big deal.
It's dangerous when he gets you into killing range, though.
assuming he DI's backwards, he can do a Fair which is similar to his Nair in speed. You go for a dash grab and eat a fair. Ness has the better options regardless.
What I said was that Jab knocks off pikmin too.
Which implies he may not even decide to go in the air, and just punch the pikmin off.
According to Project Vertical, an uncharged Usmash from Olimar will kill Mario off the top nearing 100%. The problem though, is that DI is very powerful, and I can see Ness surviving until 150%. Though, I'm not sure of it and cant test at the moment,
Ness can kill earlier thanks to his Bair, assuming Olimar's near the edge. Plus, theres not too many openings for a random Usmash to get Ness, where he has a better approaching game and can get a variety of different kill moves on Olimar.
I'm ignoring this because it seems like the same argument. The tether is new, though, and you have a point about that, but an earlier post also suggests Ness may not need to recover with PKT as much as people think.
All you did was agree that PKfire can lead into things. You didnt bring up any pro Ness points, so I dont get it.
I refuted those because I felt they were wrong and the scenario didnt work the way you made it sound.
I'm not assuming Olimar is bad, and I dont know where you're getting that from. I am being a little extreme in some things, but thats all you can really do in an argument about matchups. If you're arguing for a small advantage, like I'm doing, work at it like it's a large advantage.
Im sorry to you Olimar mains. He's a great character (and hard to deal with :[ ), but I wasnt the one who brought this argument to your boards. I would personally prefer if this stayed in the matchup thread, but it didnt so now I'm arguing in YOUR section about him having a small disadvantage. I dont mean to sound like I'm dissing him. I'm just trying to get Ness where I feel he should be vs Olimar. It's hard being anything other than extreme or a little rude when I'm arguing with multiple people at once.
So, sorry :[
You keep mentioning reds... I thought yellow were the most important when battling Ness, as they're unaffected by the Fair and Dash attack. Red is only immune to PKF.
But on the ground, I think they're evenly matched, because of Ness' amazing yoyo!
Shield pokes, good range, and can punish rollers.
It also stops pikmin if timed.
Personally, I'd only WAC the deadly things, and airdodge the rest.
WAC does seem like a pretty **** good combo breaker.
And Ness' grab game is beastly enough to be noted in the ground game. He has one of the best dash grabs, and his grabs are pretty powerful all in all.
THERE. I quoted my replies to their "critical" points. None of my important points were shot down in the thread EVER. The quote string you posited made it seem that everyone was against me, yet it's clearly not the case. Rapid jumped in a few times and I ignored him for the most part, black waltz didnt show much knowledge of Ness, so we argued, and anything he attacked came out fine in the end.
Here, everything from
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170702 regarding counter rebuttals to your points. I didn't take the time to quote your responses b/c anyone can visit the thread to see them. Many of them were major points including edge game and approaching.
And those major points were rebutted by me, which you left out.
My major points were approaching, the gimp is situational, and Ness' edgegame.
None of those quotes weaken any of these points, and I made a point to reply to the stuff I thought to be important. I ignored Rapid Assassin for the last quote as you had already moved back to this thread, and all he said was what me and Black_Waltz had already argued. So why the **** did you quote that?
Though many are very vague, this shows some of the opposition to you, Mr. E.
Opposition? BlackWaltzx threw in what he thought, and I replied.
Rapid_Assassin threw in some situational points, and I replied.
There wasn't any active opposition, EXCEPT from you.
When someone brought up something you said "YEAH!!"
and I replied, where you'd become silent.
The CG for instance.
Any opposition other than your own is in your head.
n
o, not correct. I hate to keep bringing this up, but it's vital that you have first hand experience versus olimar with ness. Many of your points throughout this discussion show that you have knowledge of the subject, but that you don't have experience.(I address this later as well, so hold in there) Yes, TL should aim arrows, and yes, a player can shield the arrows, but oimar's pikmen can't! you can shield them, but they keep coming. you can't keep it up for long before you have to move. If you choose to spotdodge, it doesn't work. They come too quickly for a sidestep to work. how about jumping and dodging-same thing. They come too quick for a player to just shield, sidestep, or airdodge them over and over-then kill. When you move, you give olimar the advantage. If you move back, olimar moves foward and repeats. So basically, in this matchup, you have to move towards olimar in the long run. correct?
I didnt say to perfect shield pikmin, I was replying to the TL scenario you brought up.
I have already shown how Ness can stop pikmin, if you dont remember.
And the whole point is that Ness should be getting close, while nullifying you're pikmin projectile game. To just dance in circles to avoid pikmin is not what I've said ever. I quoted the Ness/Lucas guide at one point to reaffirm what I was saying. Ness has to get close. I was providing reasons on how he got in close without relative harm.
Has this really gone over your head for so long?
the speed of pkt is rather slow actually. It takes about half a second to make a semicircle to propel ness foward. Is that fast? not really. The pikmen don't stop coming. If my pikmen are within range of ness, then they will land and ness' recovery will be gimped if he doesn't attack them.
The fsmash off the ledge is very reliable in if ness is out of range of pikmen throw. Do YOU know the range of a pikmen fsmash?(regular-blue) It outranges these notables:Zelda's fsmash, snake's ftilt, Bowser's fsmash, link's grab, and marth's fsmash. Anyone else care to try this out versus ness to prove my point?
Nononono.
You're wrong and you don't even realize it.
For the Fsmash to gimp the PKT, it has to hit the head of the PKT, not the tail. It has to hit during the very beginning of the move. Half a second does sound like a reasonable amount of time...
but that only works for the very first part of this move. So no, you dont have half a second to do this. You have even less time considering you may not be spaced right. Blue pikmin goes further, but what if thats the one you have when you're close to the edge? What if you're far and have any other pikmin? What if you're decently spaced but have purple? You have about half of half a second for it to be effective, taking into account the time for the pikmin to fall, and the inconsitency of the spacing and you get an unreliable tactic.
if ness' recovering from afar is situational, then yes, it is situational.
It's always situational no matter how you spin it. Up close, mid range, or far away, you cannot be consistent, as the pikmin are randomly pulled, depending on where Ness is, and where Olimar is when Ness gets knocked off.
You're obviously confused if you think the throw or the smash works often in a real match.
OH. And I just found out that Ness wont get gimped if he had already started PKTing and got a pikmin latched on him, any color. The gimp only works if you get the pikmin on first and THEN he uses PKT. If he uses PKT THEN a pikmin latches on, he's fine. Theres a very slime timeframe for this.
The gimp is unrealistic.
THE SECOND TIME I'VE SAID THIS.
As you said earlier, ness has to nair in order to fight off the pikmen latched to his body. fsmash off the ledge to gimp his recovery will punish this. maybe I misinterpreted your statement b/c it seems you're arguing for my side.
No, I said Ness will only have to Nair (He can also do fair) if he gets one on him. This rarely ever happens in itself, and even if he does its not over. Plus, lets assume he's in range for the fsmash. The doesnt work, sorry.
Anyone else see the fallacy? you clearly made the statement in your argument that suggested that I argued "that you can just move around to rearrange your trajectory." I made no reference to whether you can move around to rearrange your trajectory. You went on to prove your point through things that I DID say rather than what you made up. That's a fallacy.
That quote chain is wrong because you cut out the rest.
Firstly, in the original post I went off onto why the gimp is unrealistic. I had already made my statements on the actual quote and I had moved on to discussing possibilities that someone arguing may bring up. I said you CANNOT argue this for so-and-so reason, I didnt suggest that you had actually brought up that point, I just noted that you cant bring up that point. It wasn't connected to the quote at all. Does it have to be?
I quote it as fact b/c it is fact and facts greatly impact any argument in general.
It doesnt work, It isnt a fact. Don't posit it as fact until it's accepted. I pointed out flaws with this, and how thats situational, so the least you could do is wait a bit before you use it repeatedly to fulfill your points.
Whoever said this doesn't play very smart. It's very bad to jump off the stage while throwing pikmen. You never specified who said it, thus naturally implying that I was the one who said it.
"Plus, olimar's dair can be used to spike ness from above. If all else fails, Olimar can fall into ness when he has to use his recovery, and gimp him that way"
thats a quote from you. You didnt claim to throw pikmin off (unless its in the thread but I dont feel like sorting threw it all), but you brought up the spike situation.
and...
Never-the-less, it still doesn't belong in that paragraph. It's stronger. Does that support your evidence that ness has no disadvantage versus olimar recovering? It doesn't.
I'm beginning to sound like a professor teaching Law. Sorry. I'll quit with the paragraph structuring and fallacy criticism.
It does have relevance in this though. One of the things brought up was Ness' offstage game is stronger. Gimping him is unrealistic, where Ness gimping Olimar is far more common. Want to know how this fits in with offstage kills? Lets say Olimar is Bthrown of the edge. Olimar is at a high angle assuming he DI'd correctly. The things he has to do are as follows.
1: Drop down to tether.
2: Land down to stage/stage edge.
If he drops down farther for the tether this can be gimped. If he drops for the ledge, Ness can Dair him. This is how it fits in to the matchup.
The low range on olimar's purple pikmen(not compared to other characters, but rather to the other pikmen) is recognized by all olimar users. It won't be used to grab very often. Everything else has GREAT range and that's where I'm coming from that olimar's grab>ness' grab.
What i'm saying is that your grab range is inconsistent. You wont be able to choose the pikmin you use, and what if Ness falls into the right scenario for a grab? He's not going to wait for you to order your pikmin, so you're grab opportunity doesnt work in this one instance.
You cant choose when Ness will slip up into grab range, and having a chance of not working doesnt help any.
What we're arguing is this matchup, though. Olimar's grabs may be better and more important to his game (Ness also has grabs as an integral part of his metagame, though), but it doesnt matter as much if Olimar's grab is >>>> Ness' (it isnt) because the matchup isnt based on something like that. Maybe so and so has a better projectile than their opponent, but they could still have a bad matchup is what Im saying.
Ness' grabs and throws are amazing, though. You could at least acknowledge this.
Ness' upair beats olimar's spike, yes, but it shouldn't be used to combat spiking. In upairing while recovering, you're sacrificing your chance to recover. People don't spike when one has the option to attack back-THEN recover. People spike when their opponent only has the one option to recover. This eliminates the chance to recover and results in a death. yay!
Ness always has the option to attack and then recover due to the speed of his aerials. Ness can recover fine with PKT, so dropping down isnt a problem (he's floaty) because he can make it back up again. Tell me, since you're the one who brought up spiking in the first place, when will Olimar go for the spike vs Ness? I'm curious on how you'd go about doing this
I'm not going to discuss why they're superior b/c that's your job. I did however compare the quickness.(aka speed)
Indeed it is, but why did your bring up those positive points when they really have little bearing on the matchup?
I explained a while ago why Ness' horizontal control helped give an edge for Ness in the matchup, but you've just thrown out how some of those are better without telling anyone why it matters vs Ness.
I'm not sure you understood me. I was just comparing the two bairs. not against each other. yes, olimar's bair would beat ness', but it's irrelevant like you said.
Ok, then why did you bring it up?
Ness' Bair is far superior in this matchup, so whatever.
It's not necesarily a "combo" finisher as we all know that real"combos" are very hard to come by, but it is very hard to avoid after these "combos" if the olimar player moves olimar correctly:
dthrow, upair
upthrow,upair
uptilt,upair
They're not really combos, but they are perfect for setting up for an upair.
Fair enough, but any Ness aware of these combo's can DI out of them. That can be said with a lot of things. Uair will see some use, but it doesnt do anything to give Olimar the advantage. If it was something like G&W's Dthrow -> Dsmash, then it would, but it doesnt.
So, if you can spike me to my death, you're better off just edgehogging instead.
I already touched on this. Ness has a well enough time spiking and a well enough time edgehogging.
The ONLY reason I'm pointing out your grammar mistakes and your inexperience in the matchup is that they greatly impacted your reasoning and they justified statements-otherwise untrue imo.
They dont reflect on the matchup, and you're an idiot if you truly take those things to heart. You claimed to not play the experience card, yet thats all you've been doing. You've been attacking the weak points, yet you havent even brushed on the most important thing in this matchup - Ness' approaches!
Their was only ONE fallacy, and that was on a very unimportant point. The rest you noted were false, and just pointless attacks on myself.
My statements were true without my backing, so you arent helping your cause by going at me.
I'm sorry this turned into a personal attack on you, I didn't mean for it to turn out this way, but it did in your eyes. Sorry everyone. Sorry Mr. Escalator.
It was pretty blatant.
And even this whole post was pretty much an attack at me rather than the matchup.
You STILL havent given any reason at all why Ness is greatly disadvantaged. You havent even gave reasons why he's even at a slight disadvantage.
I'd still like more people's opinion on whether personal experience should matter as much as second hand experience when discussing advanced matchups. Does anyone else get into detail without even using the character they're discussing? This will probably turn into another thread or somethin'.
Now you're trying to garner support from others to justify you're attacks at my experience.
Real smooth.
AND
I'm hoping you finally take it to heart that you need to explain why a Ness player is disadvantaged.
Otherwise you're next post is unwelcome.
EDIT:
Ok this Ness vs olimar debate is getting kinda stupid, why not just give it time? if ness is really good against olimar then im sure people will eventually start counterpicking ness against me (this has yet to happen, usually they start with ness and switch :0 ) I know a pretty decent brawl player who mains ness, and he never picks him when playing me. Ive asked some good olimar players about the ness/olimar matchup as well and the consensus is that olimar dosent have a huge advantage on ness, but he does have an advantage.
What advantage is that, may I ask?
I'm not saying Ness is a counterpick character vs Olimar. I'm saying he's well off enough against him that the matchup is neutral.
And your personal experience with a ness player has no bearing. Is he dead even when it comes to skills between the two of you? And even so, there are so many factors that can influence your matchups that you shouldnt be using these as examples.
