Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Crizthakidd]

king DDD is awsome vs samus, and snake.

 

[Nodrak]

It actually looked like a pretty even match for the vast majority

 

[Smashbros_7]

I see that you listened to me (changed Lucas' post)

Anywho, Ness should have an advantage against Lucas, Ness mains everywhere (even Lucas' mains)
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=149444

Ness>Lucas






Anyway. HOW IN THE HELL DOES IKE COUNTER WARIO?

Explain that to me?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142975
Wario, has a slight advantage on Ike.

Rest seems decent.

 

[Fearmy]

well this is what we PT players have come up with so far

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156038

this is just out viewpoint so far, most of the things that you got are right, but then again a lot of things we said don't agree with you. i'll just have the link

 

[DanGR]

Ok.
Why did you change the Ness v Olimar to slight disadvantage? After the huge amount of time I put into arguing a slight advantage, the very least you could do is move him to neutral. It's unrealistic to get him in favorable, as so many people are biased against Ness whether they choose to actively acknowledge this or not, but I really feel I made persuasive enough arguments to move him two spaces up into neutral territory.

Did you skip over everything I said, Ivaneva?
Putting him at a disadvantage makes it seem like you ignored my posts.
ANd ignored the thread.

I want him to be at a slight advantage, Ideally, but the very least that could be done is putting Ness in a neutral matchup.

Needless to say, I'm pretty annoyed.

Ok dude, I've had enough. I thought I'd let this go, but I can't. You're beginning to get on my nerves and you're giving the smash community a VERY false impression on this matchup. Before I begin, if he doesn't want to change it, it's his choice. It's his thread. You can go make a new one if you want. The amount of time you put into formulating your argument shouldn't have an impact on whether he changes it or not. If he agrees, then fine. I’ll be pressuring him with facts (when they arise) to change his mind. Having said that, I'd like to lay out the setting behind my earlier posts:

Nope, cant say I have.
I dont main either.
BUT I don't have to be a mainer to give my input on the matchup. I'm pretty knowledgeable when it all boils down, so are you saying I can't argue a matchup I feel strongly about? Are you saying my opinion doesnt matter just because I dedicate my time to Game and Watch?

-You use neither ness nor olimar. (You said it yourself, you use GaW. Side note-and from your recent arguments regarding him, I’m sure you’re a very experienced player with GaW versus olimar, but not with ness.) So yes, you can't argue a matchup you feel "strongly" about. If you don't use either character, YOU SHOULDN'T BE ARGUING FOR EITHER CHARACTER IN THIS ADVANCED MATCHUP THREAD. It's an entirely different idea to be playing AS ness versus olimar than it is to WATCH a game between the two. If you look at ANY video of a competent player fighting any other competent player you'll notice some things that pop out and say "why'd he do that?" or even "I would have done this differently to avoid this situation". Watch any Snake video. You'll see a million "mistakes" by his opponent. Getting hit by mines, grenades, dash canceled upsmashes, etc. You, in fact, are that person. Here's a quote that relfects what I'm saying:

If you don't play either character, what exactly are you basing this off of? The lv. 9 cpu? Or theoretical scenarios that both players have seen, or won't happen in a match anyway because it's just dumb? A lot of your arguments assume that the Olimar player sucks, as in has no aim with his attacks and keeps running into PK Fire. If there were no way at all to maneuver around PK Fire for any character (as in, no one can move, shield, roll, or simply walk out of range), Ness would easily be the best character in the game. But that's clearly not the case.

I'm basing my info off of experience. Once I've learned the matchups, I pretty much stopped losing to anyone who wasn't phenomenal. Which isn't the case for anything evenly matched, or in their favor....

-Your arguments are riddled with both logical and illogical fallacies to the point that, to the average reader, they make me look stupid, and to the more advanced reader, (being another fellow competent ness/olimar main) make you seem very mistaken. An example being my thread that you linked earlier- it in fact doesn'tclearly reflect your opinion that ness>/=olimar. Many of the more experienced olimar users(versus ness) were able to clearly recognize the numerous errors in your arguments.(such as in the above quote)

http://smashboards.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=170702
Here's my Ness v Olimar thread. I took the back seat in the thread so I wouldn't impact their opinion. At first, they didn't know what to expect from you. They got a grip and pointed out several errors in your arguments.


~Here is one of your earlier posts~

Ok, I addressed this in the stupid thread you made because you can't argue, but I suppose I'll address it here, too.

Here's your first fallacy. I didn't make the thread b/c I couldn't argue with you over this matchup, I made it b/c..."I need some help as I don't really want to think about this too much.” I was merely bothered that you refuted my arguments with such disparagement that I wanted other’s input on the matchup. After reading everyone’s posts (while getting my own facts straightened out), I still stand by my opinion that olimar>>ness.

-One poster said it was hard to aim the pikmen to gimp ness' recovery and you tried to prove your point towards the recovery partly from that. One thing you have to realize is that more competent/skilled players can aim their own pikmen. TL users should be able to aim their arrows, falco/fox users-lasers, peach-her turnips, etc. Another point you made on the same topic was that ness can nair the pikmen as he recovers. This is true, but it doesn't take away the fact that ness, just like every other character, falls in the air during attacks. Sure, ness can fall just under and/or close to the ledge, but it doesn't give him any tactical advantage. Ness, unlike GaW, is bad from under the stage. He has ONE practical way and one way only to get onto the stage and that is through getting to the edge via thunder. You know an easy solution for olimar if he drops that low? Spam fsmash off the edge. The pikmen will fall off and interrupt ness’ thunder. It’s that simple.

Next, it's not far fetched to assume that a Ness can Nair a pikmin off. What is far fetched, however, is assuming that the Ness will be in the exact same place as he was when you first got the pikmin on him. Throwing another will really likely NOT hit him. At all. Ness will be DIing and dropping down out of your range of throws. There are blindspots of where your pikmin can be tossed.

This is true, but it doesn't impact which way this matchup sways. In reality,(as explained above) the only thing nairing will accomplish for you is to put you in a worse situation.

Speaking of blind spots, you cannot argue that you can just move around to rearrange your trajectory. Why? Because each pikmin is thrown differently. You can't make the assumption that you'll have all yellows that you can lob over the side. You cannot assume that you'll have a white pikmin that you can throw far if you arent near the edge that will magically gimp him. It's actually very likely that Ness wont have to Nair because you'll probably miss with the first toss anyways.

Here is another fallacy in your argument. I did not "argue that you can just move around to rearrange your trajectory" I said that yellow pikmen (ness has many electric attacks, thus preserving a few more yellow pikmen than usual) can come in handy to arc over the ledge to HELP (not all by itself) combat nairing. As i mentioned earlier, fsmashing pikmen off the edge prevents ness from recovering vertically. To your last statement-you can't assume we can't aim and hit ness with 1/6 pikmen.

It's very hard in a real match to gimp Ness. Even in the thread, someone mentioned that he had trouble doing it. You have to take into account the blindspots, where he's moving, and the throwing ability of your pikmin. Coupled with the rarity of him using PKT2 to recover, I'm confident to dismiss the gimp on Ness as...

Unrealistic.

I accounted for blindspots just recently(fsmash) and pkt2 is used much more often than you realize.(it's his only recovery option besides jumping!)

Ness will be more effective when off the edge, so chasing him off with the pikmin toss is a bad choice, as he can recover farther than you, and he's a bullet of awesome when PKT hits him, and his PKT hits him FAST. To hit him far enough that he'll have to recover means you're not near the edge, so I doubt you can make it there and off quickly enough.

Another fallacy-, Olimar users don't "chase" ANYONE off the edge with pikmen toss, or in fact, any move! You're right!, it's stupid to do that. It takes less than a second to throw 2 pikmen off the edge(standing ON the edge, not off) and it takes less than 1/4 second to edgehog ness. Olimar's poor recovery keeps him from edgeguarding more than we'd like to.

Olimar's spike is way worse compared to Ness'.

this is irrelevant to your argument and was randomly placed within your argument and had no place in this section. You are wrong though. The hitbox of olimar's dair is bigger than ness' thus olimar's spike is better? It depends on how you look at it. Ness' dair may have more power, (I have no way of testing this) but even if it does, this mean it's better than olimar's? there's another thread to argue this point.

AND what is stopping Ness from Fthrowing you at low percents and hugging the edge? Nothing. Ness gimps easier than Olimar, and sets Olimar up for gimps easier.

Another fallacy. Your response doesn't prove your question. It merely restates an obvious conclusion. Olimar has a tether recovery, which isn't good. Both olimar and ness have throws with power. Ness' power>olimar's. Would you say ness throw>olimar's though? It's much easier to grab with the insane range of olimar's grab rather than it is for ness to even get close enough to grab olimar. wouldn't you agree?

Ness has an easier time gimping you than you gimping him. His forward and back throws can easily launch you off the edge where Ness will destroy you. Ok, some of your attacks might have the range, but they're slow.

They're not slow at all. All of Olimar's attacks are fast and have great priority, so I'm not sure what point you're arguing here.

They're slower than Ness' moves in the air, which also have a better range horizontally. The only thing that can even stop Ness from carrying you to your doom is the WAC, and thats it. Ness will beat you on the edge every time, so all you can do is try to front off his attacks.

I was addressing the speed on olimar's attacks. Clearly not their importance towards Ness'. If you want to bring that up,

olimar's dair is faster than ness' and has more range.
olimar's upair is faster than ness' and has more range.
olimar's fair is slower than ness' but has more range.(I think, anyone else care to test this out? Ness' fair has more priority though, so it cancels out and goes through olimar's)
Olimar's bair is slower than ness' but has more range.

So for the most part, ness has an advantage when they're both in the air, together parallel to the ground. It's not "Ness will beat you on the edge every time, so all you can do is try to front off his attacks." This is irrelevant to the topic. It's not true anyways. I discussed their edge game earlier.

Wrooooong.
You can't even say that Olimar's fair out ranges Ness'. And the Bair? The one where he does a zelda-esque kick and extends his whole body sideways? No, Ness has the range on the sides. The obvious point is that his Uair beats out Ness' Dair, but I brought that up, and its stupid. Ness will not be using his Dair spike EXCEPT when you're off the edge, and then the Uair has too much lag to be safe. The Uair vs Ness' Dair is negligible because Ness wont be trying to approach you from above with it. Duh.

Olimar's fair has more range, but Ness' fair has more priority though, so it cancels out and goes through olimar's fair. The "zelda-esque" kick has low range. Olimar's upair has a little bit of ending lag,(similiar to GaW's fair) but you have no right(through experience in the matchup) to say it "has too much lag to be safe." Something you have to account for is that people jump to any upair?? No-one uses it as an approach.(If we did that, yes, there would be too much lag for it to be safe.) The quickness and power on the upair makes it much more worthwhile than any other option olimar has. It's a combo finisher, not a starter.

And I tested it, and Ness' Uair is quicker than you're spike and they have very similar range. The range will hardly matters because of the speed Ness can ascend and use his Uair with his second jump.

Anyone else care to test it out? I did, olimar's dair is indeed quicker than ness upair.

I'm dismissing it as a threat BECAUSE Ness will not ever go for the spike on the stage. He wont drop down on Olimar and use his spike. He will use his spike off the stage, and Olimar will probably not want to use his Uair because of his ****ty recovery. The best you can do is airdodge or WAC. Uair is only going to see use in Olimar's combos, which will be few because of his crappy approaches.

This is yet another very strange fallacy: “Uair is only going to see use in Olimar's combos, which will be few because of his crappy approaches.” The fact that his upair is good in combos doesn’t negate its usefulness in other situations and isn’t affected by whether olimar has “crappy” approaches or not. He doesn’t HAVE to approach and he has good approaches anyways if he wants to approach for some reason. I’ll explain some if anyone else cares to challenge.

You greatly underestimate Ness.
He messes your spacing up because he can safely approach.
He can get grabs on easily, too. Shield grab? Well, if you're playing defensive, lets have Ness sidestep this and now grab you. His dash grab is also amazing and can trip many people not used to its range/burst of speed forward.

I don't underestimate Ness', I have FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE. If you had any experience versus olimar, you'd know that sidestepping doesn't work against olimar AT ALL. His grab has the unique property that it lasts longer than most grabs. The pikmen gets pushed out, then retracts. Any moment of the time as the pikmen is pushed out to the moment where he just begins to get retracted is the "grabbox" of olimar's grab-just as it is with any tether grab character. So, no. Sidestepping doesn't work.

Ok, honestly.

Shut up.

I've demonstrated with example and possibilities how Ness has the upper hand in this matchup. What you've done is ask "how so?" and said one liners like "not true" instead of an actual discussion. You're dismissing so much for your blatant fanyboyism, and you've even dismissed me despite me putting up a helluva good arguement. If you cant keep up with a discussion, drop it.

Ok, I’ve included more than one line statements to discredit your erroneous arguments. Simple errors don’t need explanation. They need a simple “not true.” Everyone can point out these mistakes, but I went ahead and did it for everyone who doesn’t know the matchup. Your arguments in this matchup are quite obviously wrong and you’ve taunted me to combat you. I’ve posted my arguments clearly now, so go ahead, prove me wrong with FACTS, not with conclusions drawn while watching your brothers play each other.

You even went so far as made a thread in OLIMAR's subforum because you couldnt argue the points I made. Now with the thread pretty much dea[d], and my arguments still in tact, you've tried to stab at my credibility just because I dont main either one.

The thread, as I pointed out earlier, was an attempt to get an idea of what everyone thought about the matchup. Not a body to pull my arguments from. You invaded my thread and were shoved out. It’s not dead, it’s over.

 

[ThaRoy]

If you put in effort it proves one of two things: your either dedicated in proving the truth or that you are ignorant and an idiot. Prove us 'wrong' why don't you, prove me correct in the process.

 

[VersatileBJN]

To ShadowLink

1. I said Ike is low high tier or high mid tier at best. Yes, that is correct. He could be lower, but I believe it is fact that he is no higher.

2. "If you look at MK for example who has great priority and lack of kill moves.
He is the only character that can be compared to Sonic the best
. He pressures, chases the opponent off the edge, has good approaches and combos."

That = comparing to MK to Sonic. There is no real comparison outside of the obvious(speed and lack of KO). Meta Knight has massive amounts of priority and Sonic does not. Meta Knight is a top tier character and Sonic is a low tier one.

3. I'm not talking strategy? Well, I guess I'm not going very in depth about Ike vs Sonic, but I definitely layed out the reasons why it's not a match that favors sonic.

- Ike outranges him and outpriotizes him
- He can space Sonic out with Nair and Fair, making penetrating very difficult
- Jab beats out pretty much anything Sonic does on the ground.

You can summarize why you think Sonic vs Ike is a even match up(or in the advantage of Sonic) if you want.

That is what I and most who are not Sonic players believe.

4. You point out a post where I'm apparently being contradictory by saying without Snake and Meta(D3 and Falco to that list actually) anyone can beat anyone? How so? I never said Sonic or Ganondorf couldn't beat Ike.

Anywho, I respect your point of view and realize it's all about perception and experience. This goes to you, too Gleam. When I play either of you we can apply what we believe to an actual match rather than go back and forth here.

I am sorry for not reading your longer posts, too, guys. My belief from what you guys are saying about the match ups is that you are fighting Ikes who leave themselves wide open and don't take advantage of his strengths. That and you are just playing theory fighter and talking about how you think a match will go rather than considering the person using the character and how well they are doing that(Emblem Lord does this a lot). I'm sure you feel the same way about me with Sonic. The way to go about convincing you guys isn't by being rude or insulting for sure.

Gleam and Shadowlink, from now on I will respectfully and engagingly talk about anything you want regarding the match ups of Sonic and Ganondorf vs Ike and why I believe they favor Ike.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It is assumed that both players will use the best tools and strats available to them.

I'll break it down for you. Ike has slight advantage. Ike has the range and priority, but the main thing that keeps him in the game is his QD, which gives him added mobility to compete with Sonic in that department and the jab combo will give Ike an upper hand at close range. Ike's zoning doesn't help too much though since Sonic is so fast. Also Sonic can gimp Ike pretty easily, conisdering Ike's predictable recovery and how Sonic is a good edgeguarder. If Sonic doesn't gimp Ike then Ike can expect to live to some high percents while Sonic will be dieing at relatively low percents. Also Ike's jab limits Sonic's approach options as does Ike's u-tilt which can shut down an aerial approach/ homing attack.

The advantage isn't huge at all. It's very slight. 6/4 Ike's favor.

Also just so everyone knows...90% of what I say is theory..but it's also extremely accurate..why is this so? Because I have a deep understanding of fighting games, and strategies. I know what makes a good strategy good and a bad strategy bad. I know what attributes make a character bottom tier or top tier. And I know what seperates good moves from bad moves. Basically I have knowledge of fighting games and I apply that knowledge whenever I analyze something.

It's not difficult at all and you just have to make sure NOT to let personal experience get in the way, because often times it clouds your better judgement IMO.

 

[penguinman]

cool, gannon has no good matchups bwahaha

 

[wasabicheese]

zelda pwns falco

 

[VersatileBJN]

I meant no disrespect Emblem-Lord. You're a very knowledgeable guy and I learned a lot about Smash from you back when I was a crappy player.

Firstly, I agree with the Sonic vs Ike match up. Either character can win as I've stated many times, but I believe it favors Ike, and I believe it does so more than 6/4. More like 7/3

Secondly, I disagree that personal experience shouldn't come into play. You can theory fight and know as much about how fighting games are played at a high level as you want, but unless you experience the match up and really understand why A works on B and to what extent, you aren't going to be very accurate a lot of the time. It makes you put more emphasis on one thing and more on another.

Example:

You can say Ike has predictable recovery, but there are several ways to go about switching up how you approach returning to the stage to make his comeback decent. Using Fair to clear out if the opponent is approaching is one. QDing to get back on the stage from high above is another. Falling forwards the the ledge, air dodging the incoming attack and using Aether is another. etc

Also, I don't believe Ike needs QD at all on the stage to fight Sonic and have the advantage. QD is good for movement yes, but the priority advantage Ike has on Sonic is so massive that approaching with Jabs, up tilt's, empty jumps, and bairs/ fairs/nair DI'ed away from or behind Sonic works without the need of much QD application. I don't believe using theory fighter and spending X amount of time in training mode experimenting will help as far as measuring how big of an advantage the things I just mentioned are.

Ok BBQ time. I'll holla at yall later.

 

[ShadowLink84]

To ShadowLink

1. I said Ike is low high tier or high mid tier at best. Yes, that is correct. He could be lower, but I believe it is fact that he is no higher.

he is most definitely lower. Lack of approaching ability. Easily gimpable recover.
His move are telegraphed except for jab and Bair.
He really is not a character that would be capable of being high tier not the top of mid tier.
Simply because the lack of speed in both movement and attacks can make things difficult for him.
Spacing also becomes an issue due to his lack of speed, something that is incredibly important, so nless the character is purely close combat, he usually will have to go to them.
In short he is often stuck having to play an offensive game.
The sheer limiting of his options prevent him from being capable of being the top of mid tier or low high tier.

The main point of me quoting you is to further show my point that whenever you state something, you rarely state anything to support your opinion if at all.

That = comparing to MK to Sonic. There is no real comparison outside of the obvious(speed and lack of KO). Meta Knight has massive amounts of priority and Sonic does not. Meta Knight is a top tier character and Sonic is a low tier one.

yes I am comparing I don't believe I said I didn't.
Metaknight has very similar gamestyle in that he chases and pressures the enemy.
he is good at being defensive due ot the tornado and while his specials leave something to desire, they all dedicate themselves to amassing damage.
Not only does he have massive priority, the situations he is capable of placing an opponent are greater than Sonic.

Since both him and Sonic must set up the opponent before they are capable of landing a KO. However MK has near instantaneous attack with his Dsmash and the amount of situations that can lead to one are above Sonic.

Were sonic to have massive priority like that of MK, he would most likely be high tier.
Simply because the lack of priority means he cannot place the opponent in a great situation.
He ends up getting limited as well.
His opponent also cannot limit his options as easily as they could Sonic.
This is why Luigi and Mk are hard counters for sonic, They really limit him in his ability to accomplish his gameplay. Other character Sonic can take adantage of but the hitbox of Luigi and MK make it difficult for him to land a hit him unless he is using a Uair or have set ythem up. Even if he has set them up they can counter more easily than say DDD would be.


I also said MK is the only character that can be most compared to Sonic. DO you understand now?

3. I'm not talking strategy? Well, I guess I'm not going very in depth about Ike vs Sonic, but I definitely layed out the reasons why it's not a match that favors sonic.

- Ike outranges him and outpriotizes him
- He can space Sonic out with Nair and Fair, making penetrating very difficult
- Jab beats out pretty much anything Sonic does on the ground.

Bad argument is bad.
They used the same argument for Ganondorf and their mnds were quickly changed by Tenku.
Sonic's game does not rely on attacking Ike head on. Its about taking advantage of the opponent as well as pressuring them.
Yes Ike has a great amount of range and priority, but Sonic isn't going to attack Ike in a predictable manner. How many Sonic's are going to approach a grounded Ike? Not many.
not without using DAC which has a disjointed hitbox which helps get to an Ike using Nair and Fair for spacing.
Even then Sonic doesn't have to approach Ike. he could play defensively and while Ike has range, Sonic can space better than the majority of the cast.
Not to mention that Sonic is very capable of taking advantage of both start up and cooldown time for Ike.
his Fair cancels when SH'ed, as does his Bair and Uair. IF they don't cancel the buffering system really allows him to move quickly.
Sonic would have to be spacing, and taking advantage of Ike's relatively slow moveset.
Not to mention that once Ike is off the stage, he is incredibly vulnerable to Sonic.

If sonic is at a disadvantage, it is slight.

You can summarize why you think Sonic vs Ike is a even match up(or in the advantage of Sonic) if you want.

That is what I and most who are not Sonic players believe.

What the majority believes doesn't make a difference.
The majority believed during the 1st yea of melee that Link's ^B was super powerful.
It took them a year to figure out how to counter it, a year!. Meanwhile the link users already knew the weakness and if they didn't tell, someone else figured it out and made a topic.
Not only was it because the community was small and inexperienced, the majority could not get it through their heads what could be done until nearly alL of them were convered.
Even now you still have people going.
ZSS is a major disadvantage to Sonic because of her neutral B and Over B.
Or, Everyone ***** Lucas and Ness cause of chaingrabs, despite the fact that weeks ago it was found that only charizard and Marth could ICG Ness.
And that Lucas could only get ICG'ed by Marth.
Don't believe me. Go look at the posts in general AND tactical.

Soni is incredibly underrate as is Lucas and Ness.
Hell DK was too until he showed himself at an advantage against MK.
Even then people still think he's sucks.
Yet when you place them in he hands of someone who has used them for weeks, for months, they become very deadly and their true potential becomes real.
Its the high learning curve that really turns people off and sets into their mind what the character can or cannot do. They ten do not go beyond the
"If I can't sue him effectively within a few days it means he sucks"

The majority is not always right.

Not only that but his matchups are quite typical of a md tier character.
(though I am bothered as to why pit and Samus and DK are disadvantages to him)

4. You point out a post where I'm apparently being contradictory by saying without Snake and Meta(D3 and Falco to that list actually) anyone can beat anyone? How so? I never said Sonic or Ganondorf couldn't beat Ike.

Except that is contradictory.
A sheik in melee will ALWAYS trounce a Link.

Snake and MK will ALWAYS trounce Ike.
The only time such a statement is true is if the advantage is slight (soft counter such as Link vs Marth in melee) or if the opponent sucks.
In a place where the opponents skill is equal to oneself, the only time they will win (for example Ike and Sonic) is if the disadvantage for one of the characters in the matchup is small.

Anywho, I respect your point of view and realize it's all about perception and experience. This goes to you, too Gleam. When I play either of you we can apply what we believe to an actual match rather than go back and forth here.

I am sorry for not reading your longer posts, too, guys. My belief from what you guys are saying about the match ups is that you are fighting Ikes who leave themselves wide open and don't take advantage of his strengths. That and you are just playing theory fighter and talking about how you think a match will go rather than considering the person using the character and how well they are doing that(Emblem Lord does this a lot). I'm sure you feel the same way about me with Sonic. The way to go about convincing you guys isn't by being rude or insulting for sure.

No because I understand your point of view. Ike is my secondary for characters that Sonic is at a major disadvantage, (i.e Luigi).
Its also rare to meet good Sonic's or Ike's. The noobs sing the character are very loud.
I don't mind if you differ in opinion, all I desire is that you provide your reasonings in a respectful manner.

Gleam and Shadowlink, from now on I will respectfully and engagingly talk about anything you want regarding the match ups of Sonic and Ganondorf vs Ike and why I believe they favor Ike.

Likewise? Game in a week?
I don't have wifi until the 5th of june and am ill.

 

[YagamiLight]

Could I perchance, get a reason as to why Wolf versus Falco is a big X for Wolf? Is it the Chaingrab?

 

[ShadowLink84]

That and Falco's laser>Wolf's laser.
His CQC is also better.

 

[Elbow]

Are you seriously telling me Ganondorf doesn't have an advantage on a single person?! I must really kick ***.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

shiek has a pretty sizable advantage against all space animals.

Fox, Falco and Wolf can all get caught in he FTilt and can't escape until >90% damage. and it csan combo into an Fsmash, Usmash or Dsmash for in instant 0-death combo.

change that on the chart <_<

http://youtube.com/watch?v=F82clXzuxTo <- this is innescapable

so

Shiek >> Fox

Shiek >> Wolf

Sheik >> Falco

 

[Deleted member]

shiek has a pretty sizable advantage against all space animals.

Fox, Falco and Wolf can all get caught in he FTilt and can't escape until >90% damage. and it csan combo into an Fsmash, Usmash or Dsmash for in instant 0-death combo.

change that on the chart <_<

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it possible to DI towards Sheik to end the Ftilt lock? And I also have doubts about it comboing into an Usmash. I very well may be wrong about this though, haven't played much Sheik yet.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it possible to DI towards Sheik to end the Ftilt lock? And I also have doubts about it comboing into an Usmash. I very well may be wrong about this though, haven't played much Sheik yet.

I edited and included a link. Usamsh is quick and hits on the sides with a sideways trajectory. if you are DIing towards shiek to break it and shiek decides to Umsash you, you would only hurt yourself more with your DI

 

[Empy]

I edited and included a link. Usamsh is quick and hits on the sides with a sideways trajectory. if you are DIing towards shiek to break it and shiek decides to Umsash you, you would only hurt yourself more with your DI

Wait, how can you hurt yourself with DI? You would have to DI downwards for anything bad to happen if you are sent horizontally. If you DI horizontal on a horizontal knockback, nothing happens.

 

[Tenki]

^If you DI further into a move just to find out you pushed yourself deeper (like... a flamethrower) and the move keeps pushing you in the other direction, you're kinda screwed.
Anyway, I think Sheik's f-tilt hits upwards

As for Ganondorf's forward tilt, when I said it doesn't stop Ike from recovering, I was referring to Ganondorf using it as a move to stop Quick Draw or something along the lines of that. Ike getting back on the stage if smart should not have to worry about forward tilt.

As for when it knocks him off at high percentages, yes, I know that. Did you know that forward tilt works like that for many other character? Luigi, Peach, Captain Falcon, Olimar, Falco, Fox and Wolf all have the same problem. Does it stop them from all having advantages over Ganondorf? No. It is not an overwhelming move. It's punishable and non spammable.

I was messing around in training mode, and it happened to be Ganondorf vs Ike, when something happened that reminded me of this post.

Ike used Aether from under the edge. As he was grabbing the sword, I walked in range of him and F-tilted him with Ganondorf.

anyway, I just mentioned it because, to me, it seemed like you guys were arguing about F-tilt gimping Ike. Does edgeguarding define a matchup? No. Does it help, if the certain edgeguard/gimp example can be done often? Yes, such as the case of yellow pikmin and Ness.

In this case, does Ganondorf's F-tilt have a frequent edgeguard/gimp use against Ike? I wouldn't say so.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Wait, how can you hurt yourself with DI? You would have to DI downwards for anything bad to happen if you are sent horizontally. If you DI horizontal on a horizontal knockback, nothing happens.

the knockback is not quite vertical, but it's close enough that DIing horizontally will give it completely horizontal knockback. it'll KILL any of the spacies.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i dont play ether cf or ganon but i thought it was mostly agreed that cf is the worst in the game so i don't see how ganon has no adv while cf does (i am not trying to get into a cf vs ganon debate just wondering how it was decided that ganon has no advantage against anyone)

 

[sn1per13]

Wow how long did it take you to make this?

It's awesome though!

 

[DanGR]

Can anyone explain why Zelda, Sheik, Samus, and Ness have advantages over DDD? Samus can be infinite cg-ed with standing dthrow and(correct me if I'm wrong) I though it was the same situation with Ness also?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I can't speak for shiek samus and ness. But Zelda definitely is advantaged here:
-she can't be chain grabbed
-Her Usmash denies any aerial besides a well positioned dair and punishes airdodging and his Up B.
-Din's fire goes through waddle dees, forcing DDD to approach and his approach game is not really that good.
-That sucks because Zelda's defensive game is great.
- He's a huge target meaning thta her aerial's that are normally hard to sweetspot become easy to sweetspot.
- His UpB recovery is a free lighting kick kill for zelda.
- Her attacks out range his fast attacks and out speed his long ranged attacks.
-DDD is too big to DI out of her smashes most of the time.


that's not all of why Zelda is favored, but it's a lot of the reason.

 

[DanGR]

Sonic, I'm not here to argue, but I just owned my friend's very competent Zelda/Sheik main with DDD about 20 times over(literally) via bair and grabbing. He wasn't a pushover, but it seemed sort of unfair. really.

-she can't be chain grabbed

true, this shouldn't be advantageous for her though. I just look at it as a normal grab with awesome range and a fail proof ftilt followup.

-Her Usmash denies any aerial besides a well positioned dair and punishes airdodging and his Up B.

not exactly. DDD won't just jump into your upsmash. He'll float diagonal to Zelda and try to get close enough to urge an upsmash and punish with a nasty bair. Plus, DDD is all about spacing. DDD won't be jumpin' around Zelda whilst airdodging begging for an upsmash.

-Din's fire goes through waddle dees, forcing DDD to approach and his approach game is not really that good.

DDD's approach game is exceptional. I'm not sure what you mean. His bair can be performed twice in a SH, has better priority than kirby's sick WOP bair, and goes through Zelda's Din's, rendering it almost completely useless during this match.(question for thought: does hitting din's hit a move suffer DR? idk) but anyways, I've found that from a distance, DDD actually has the camping advantage. If Zelda forces it in close though, DDD can approach with bair.

-That sucks because Zelda's defensive game is great.

true. very true.

- He's a huge target meaning thta her aerial's that are normally hard to sweetspot become easy to sweetspot.

easier, but DDD's air game is arguably better than Zelda's. It's harder than just jumping into him. You have to account for many other factors including the insane fast fall ability DDD has. Also, DDD can punish approaching fairs. He can powershield and run-grab her about half a second after getting hit.(not that it's a good approach anyways. just saying...)

- His UpB recovery is a free lighting kick kill for zelda.

Not free, but it is easier for Zelda to sweetspot it. I use my jumps to get back to the stage more than the upb. DDD beats out Zelda when he has his jumps getting back to the stage.

- Her attacks out range his fast attacks and out speed his long ranged attacks.

not exactly. DDD's ftilt outrange's Zelda's fsmash(her most ranged move besides din's) His bair outprioritizes her fsmash, and they're both much faster in comparison.

-DDD is too big to DI out of her smashes most of the time.

haha, y'all in the zelda thread won't tell anyone how to DI out of her smashes anyways so... at least for me, It's not any different with any other character. lol

thanks man.

P.S. I thought you mained Sheik also? w/e

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

saying zelda destroys ddd might be over doing it but saying zelda has the advtange makes sense (i have not had problems with ddd's)

also a good zelda will be ready for the mult jump and wont just spam u-smash.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

-You use neither ness nor olimar. (You said it yourself, you use GaW. Side note-and from your recent arguments regarding him, I’m sure you’re a very experienced player with GaW versus olimar, but not with ness.) So yes, you can't argue a matchup you feel "strongly" about. If you don't use either character, YOU SHOULDN'T BE ARGUING FOR EITHER CHARACTER IN THIS ADVANCED MATCHUP THREAD. It's an entirely different idea to be playing AS ness versus olimar than it is to WATCH a game between the two. If you look at ANY video of a competent player fighting any other competent player you'll notice some things that pop out and say "why'd he do that?" or even "I would have done this differently to avoid this situation". Watch any Snake video. You'll see a million "mistakes" by his opponent. Getting hit by mines, grenades, dash canceled upsmashes, etc. You, in fact, are that person. Here's a quote that relfects what I'm saying:

Ok.
Im sorry, but you're playing the role of the elitist here. You are saying that since I dont use all of my time towards perfecting my game for Ness and Olimar and rather work towards perfecting my G&W, that I have no basis in my argument. You're implying that anyone who has ever contributed in this thread who doesnt main the character should not be posting, or this is how it seems to me. What about everyone else here who's posted maybe a sentence or two, yet their main may show someone completely different. Does this change the validity of the matchup they presented? No.

You cannot stop someone from pointing out things he saw wrong with you're matchup. You made points, I made rebuttals. I, in fact, know more about Brawl than just my own character.

Second, are you stupid? What makes you think im basing the discussion off of videos of the two? I have not even mentioned anything along the lines of "Well, in all the videos I've seen, the Ness beats up the Olimar real 'gud". You're making an assumption, and thats something you typically avoid.

-Your arguments are riddled with both logical and illogical fallacies to the point that, to the average reader, they make me look stupid, and to the more advanced reader, (being another fellow competent ness/olimar main) make you seem very mistaken. An example being my thread that you linked earlier- it in fact doesn'tclearly reflect your opinion that ness>/=olimar. Many of the more experienced olimar users(versus ness) were able to clearly recognize the numerous errors in your arguments.(such as in the above quote)

http://smashboards.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=170702
Here's my Ness v Olimar thread. I took the back seat in the thread so I wouldn't impact their opinion. At first, they didn't know what to expect from you. They got a grip and pointed out several errors in your arguments.

"Many more"? Don't make vague references. Cite what you're trying to argue.
The first thing you brought up (the one that I shouldnt be arguing) is pretty much a carbon copy of what that one person said. I replied to him with my post:

I don't main either one, correct, but I'm not clueless about how they play. My older brother plays Ness, and I'm friends with a pretty good Olimar. He gives my G&W a lot of trouble, but Ness seems to manuever easily whenever I watch them play. Before I started arguing Ness having the advantage, I asked a few people I know online about how they felt. One of the best Ness mains I know was shocked that it was listed as a major disadvantage vs Olimar, and he said it was neutral at the least, and he would personally give Ness the advantage.

I originally started arguing that Ness should be neutral, but part way through my original post, I looked more and more into how they both played against each other, and checked out a few properties of Ness' attacks. From what I was looking at, it seemed that Ness would be one of the very few who could successfully approach an Olimar.

I havent assumed the theoretical olimar sucks enough to be caught in all Ness has to offer, and I've really left it open to both sides. My main post dealt with what DanGR brought up, and I also dealt with how a Ness could reduce the effectiveness of Olimar's pikmin game. I havent brought up stupid scenario's like gimping Ness which is very situational, at least, I don't believe I have.

It's up to you guys to argue the good about Olimar. I'm bringing up what I know about Ness and how he can deal with the spaceman.

It really seems that you're implying I lack experience. It's not first hand, except for the basic things I tested in training (Like that with DI, Ness' Bthrow kills sooner than a blue pikmin throw, or the pikmin stopping properties of his attacks), but I'm not clueless.

and Rapid_Assassin didn't push that point any further. Now, you've brought up the same, exact, point, and you're citing someone who brought up the same thing, but you fail to mention that he dropped that point. I don't know whether this is because of lack of interest, the tangent we went off into in the thread, or he accepted it. I dont want to make that claim. The argument was dropped, but it resurfaced via you, but it isnt you're argument. He can fight the point if he wishes, but don't quote him saying that he's in the right.

Here's your first fallacy. I didn't make the thread b/c I couldn't argue with you over this matchup, I made it b/c..."I need some help as I don't really want to think about this too much.” I was merely bothered that you refuted my arguments with such disparagement that I wanted other’s input on the matchup. After reading everyone’s posts (while getting my own facts straightened out), I still stand by my opinion that olimar>>ness.

You claim my points were refuted, and that the posts in the thread back up your opinion, but what points and posts do this? There were a few, as I remember, who agreed that the matchup was hard for them. Others said they were inexperienced in this match. How can you claim these users dont know what they're talking about?

Which of my points were picked apart, and how many of these were major points?
Cite them for me. Do it.

-One poster said it was hard to aim the pikmen to gimp ness' recovery and you tried to prove your point towards the recovery partly from that. One thing you have to realize is that more competent/skilled players can aim their own pikmen. TL users should be able to aim their arrows, falco/fox users-lasers, peach-her turnips, etc. Another point you made on the same topic was that ness can nair the pikmen as he recovers. This is true, but it doesn't take away the fact that ness, just like every other character, falls in the air during attacks. Sure, ness can fall just under and/or close to the ledge, but it doesn't give him any tactical advantage. Ness, unlike GaW, is bad from under the stage. He has ONE practical way and one way only to get onto the stage and that is through getting to the edge via thunder. You know an easy solution for olimar if he drops that low? Spam fsmash off the edge. The pikmen will fall off and interrupt ness’ thunder. It’s that simple.

And yet...

You're making a critical assumption.
That the Olimar will be competent, and the Ness not so much.
TL aiming his arrows? Alright, evenly skilled players, right? The other player will powershield.
You cannot assume that in a matchup that one player will be able to aim better than the other can evade. This would be a fallacy on your part, correct?

Likewise, is the Ness player so incompetant that he doesnt know how to aim his PKT lower than the ledge? In offline play, AKA tournament play, a competant Ness player can handle this.

Fsmash off the ledge? You're underestimating the speed of PKT, and overestimating the range and capabilities of the Fsmash. There's a very small margin of time where the pikmin will stop it, as the PKT moves quickly, and theres blindspots.

All of your gimping scenario's are turning out to be situational, it appears.

This is true, but it doesn't impact which way this matchup sways. In reality,(as explained above) the only thing nairing will accomplish for you is to put you in a worse situation.

Hardly, and thats assuming you can even force the Ness to nair.

Here is another fallacy in your argument. I did not "argue that you can just move around to rearrange your trajectory" I said that yellow pikmen (ness has many electric attacks, thus preserving a few more yellow pikmen than usual) can come in handy to arc over the ledge to HELP (not all by itself) combat nairing. As i mentioned earlier, fsmashing pikmen off the edge prevents ness from recovering vertically. To your last statement-you can't assume we can't aim and hit ness with 1/6 pikmen.

What fallacy? I didnt say you made that argument, I said you cannot make that argument. Learn to read?

Referencing your above point doesnt help when I'm replying to it, as I made a rebuttal.

I accounted for blindspots just recently(fsmash) and pkt2 is used much more often than you realize.(it's his only recovery option besides jumping!)

Fsmash is very situational, why do you reference yourself so much? Try not to tote it as fact until the other person gives their input. If they leave it alone or concede, then you can cite it.

And his jumping is impressive in itself. The reason they may be using PKT2 so much (besides using it as an attack) is possibly because of wifi. Are you basing this off of offline play or what occurs online?

Another fallacy-, Olimar users don't "chase" ANYONE off the edge with pikmen toss, or in fact, any move! You're right!, it's stupid to do that. It takes less than a second to throw 2 pikmen off the edge(standing ON the edge, not off) and it takes less than 1/4 second to edgehog ness. Olimar's poor recovery keeps him from edgeguarding more than we'd like to.

This isnt a fallacy, as I do remember an Olimar user, whether it be yourself or another in the thread, claiming that Olimar could essentially chase Ness off the stage whilst throwing pikmin and could follow up with his spike.

This could also be interpreted as just throwing the pikmin off, as a chase, but not actually leaving the stage.

this is irrelevant to your argument and was randomly placed within your argument and had no place in this section. You are wrong though. The hitbox of olimar's dair is bigger than ness' thus olimar's spike is better? It depends on how you look at it. Ness' dair may have more power, (I have no way of testing this) but even if it does, this mean it's better than olimar's? there's another thread to argue this point.

You must have a short attention span or something:

Plus, olimar's dair can be used to spike ness from above.

You brought that up, and I replied that Ness' has a better spike. Much better power (more knockback than Ganon's at the lower percents), being able to do a rising spike because of Ness' beastly second jump, and the fact that it's less situational because Ness will actually chase off the edge, unlike Olimar.

Oh, and he has a combo that leads into his spike.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=171131

Another fallacy. Your response doesn't prove your question. It merely restates an obvious conclusion. Olimar has a tether recovery, which isn't good. Both olimar and ness have throws with power. Ness' power>olimar's. Would you say ness throw>olimar's though? It's much easier to grab with the insane range of olimar's grab rather than it is for ness to even get close enough to grab olimar. wouldn't you agree?

You keep saying "another fallacy".

I would actually argue this because all Olimar has on Ness in terms of grabbing is longer shield grabbing range, where Ness has a better dashgrab. Plus, the grab range is varying for Olimar because of the different pikmin. It's not as consistent.

I was addressing the speed on olimar's attacks. Clearly not their importance towards Ness'. If you want to bring that up,

olimar's dair is faster than ness' and has more range.
olimar's upair is faster than ness' and has more range.
olimar's fair is slower than ness' but has more range.(I think, anyone else care to test this out? Ness' fair has more priority though, so it cancels out and goes through olimar's)
Olimar's bair is slower than ness' but has more range.

So for the most part, ness has an advantage when they're both in the air, together parallel to the ground. It's not "Ness will beat you on the edge every time, so all you can do is try to front off his attacks." This is irrelevant to the topic. It's not true anyways. I discussed their edge game earlier.

Olimar's Dair isn't as good as Ness', as I pointed out.
Ness' Uair is a killing move, where Olimar's is for comboing. It beats Olimar's spike, I think.
I don't know the range, but you're right about the priority. I kept breaking through so I couldn't test the range. So his Fair is better in the matchup.
Slower and much weaker. Ness' is a great killer, Olimar's is a spacing tool.

You compared them by what Olimar's was better at, but you didnt mention how Ness' was superior, save for speed, or how it's relevant to the matchup.

and you discussed the edge game, and I argued it.

Olimar's fair has more range, but Ness' fair has more priority though, so it cancels out and goes through olimar's fair. The "zelda-esque" kick has low range. Olimar's upair has a little bit of ending lag,(similiar to GaW's fair) but you have no right(through experience in the matchup) to say it "has too much lag to be safe." Something you have to account for is that people jump to any upair?? No-one uses it as an approach.(If we did that, yes, there would be too much lag for it to be safe.) The quickness and power on the upair makes it much more worthwhile than any other option olimar has. It's a combo finisher, not a starter.

Okay, you agree that Ness' fair wins out in this matchup.
The bair can kill easily, and it will rarely be paired vs Olimar's Bair, so I dont see your point here.

I have the right, though, just that you refuse to acknowledge it. That's your problem, not mine. I can argue any matchup I have sufficient enough info for.

So what are the combo's that this finishes?
It better be something good because Ness has great aerial control, and laggy attacks are typically punished.

Anyone else care to test it out? I did, olimar's dair is indeed quicker than ness upair.

Yeah, I would like it if someone else tested it. I havent been in the training room for a while now, but I remember the Uair beating Olimar's dair.

Though this isn't a crucial part of my argument, so picking at it doesnt make the matchup any more faovrable towards Olimar.

This is yet another very strange fallacy: “Uair is only going to see use in Olimar's combos, which will be few because of his crappy approaches.” The fact that his upair is good in combos doesn’t negate its usefulness in other situations and isn’t affected by whether olimar has “crappy” approaches or not. He doesn’t HAVE to approach and he has good approaches anyways if he wants to approach for some reason. I’ll explain some if anyone else cares to challenge.

Strange indeed.
It seems out of place, and you're right about that one particular quote, so I would venture and say this is the only fallacy that's founded. Founded off of bad wording, but still one nonetheless.

The rest of that quote is still spot on, though.

I don't underestimate Ness', I have FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE. If you had any experience versus olimar, you'd know that sidestepping doesn't work against olimar AT ALL. His grab has the unique property that it lasts longer than most grabs. The pikmen gets pushed out, then retracts. Any moment of the time as the pikmen is pushed out to the moment where he just begins to get retracted is the "grabbox" of olimar's grab-just as it is with any tether grab character. So, no. Sidestepping doesn't work.

I do have experience, though, just with G&W. Thats negligible, and it's you're own issue if you dont like my arguing.

At the end of the grab range, you can sidestep it. You will get caught in a grab if you sidestep RIGHT NEXT to Olimar, and it's not an easy feat for most characters to get directly to the side of him. You can still sidestep it and punish as it's retracting, but this wont work when pretty much touching him.

Ok, I’ve included more than one line statements to discredit your erroneous arguments. Simple errors don’t need explanation. They need a simple “not true.” Everyone can point out these mistakes, but I went ahead and did it for everyone who doesn’t know the matchup. Your arguments in this matchup are quite obviously wrong and you’ve taunted me to combat you. I’ve posted my arguments clearly now, so go ahead, prove me wrong with FACTS, not with conclusions drawn while watching your brothers play each other.

Erroneous fallacy fallacy fallacy fallacy!!
It doesnt give any more validity to your post by using those nice buzz words, and there was only one point that turned out to be correct, which turned out to just be a miswroding on my part. Your other "fallacies" didn't do anything to help your matchup.

In fact, the whole point to this post hasnt been to argue the crucial points of my argument, has it? It's been to poke holes in my smaller statements to discredit me that way. I can understand if you have trouble thinking of counter arguments, but attacking the unimportant details to make it seem that I'm wrong is pretty low, IMO.

I may be taunting some things, but it's because I'm pretty frustrated at how you've gone about this whole matchup. I make huge replies, and you return with the fallacy card, ignoring anything of value I may have made. It's pretty much my attitude. I'm not doing this because I feel like I'm losing this argument, I'm just genuinely upset that I have to make huge post after huge post instead of looking at other matchups.

What you are seemingly doing doesnt make you look too wonderful, though.

and

my points arent wrong. Just because you choose not to target the sound points that put this matchup in a neutral favor, doenst make them wrong. You can claim they are wrong, but you havent made a slight attempt at them.

"Your arguments in this matchup are quite obviously wrong"

prove this then. You spent a lot of energy picking at my previous post, so now try and move that energy into making a real argument why you think Ness is SERIOUSLY DISADVANTAGED. Gimping is situational, Ness can approach, and he generally does a decent time vs your approach attempts and spacing.

"so go ahead, prove me wrong with FACTS, not with conclusions drawn while watching your brothers play each other."

You're really something else. Ignoring this is a blantant personal attack, I'll point out you're wrong.

I havent been rguing this because one of my older brother's plays a **** good Ness, and that he can deal with one of the best Olimar's I know with relative ease. That is one instance that I remembered that made me want to argue this as neutral. It's not my argument, so try not to waste too much effort with that.

The thread, as I pointed out earlier, was an attempt to get an idea of what everyone thought about the matchup. Not a body to pull my arguments from. You invaded my thread and were shoved out. It’s not dead, it’s over.

I was shoved out?
whaaaaat?
what the **** man?

I mentioned in my final post that I was tired of arguing the same thing over, and that I wouldnt be making any more attempts at posting IN THE THREAD, as you had already moved back to arguing here. I actively stopped posting, even when someone else threw in what they thought. This isnt a sign of resignation, its just that you had replied to the argument, and that I thought we had finally moved back here.

It's dead.
To say otherwise is stupid.

It's a neutral matchup between the two. I'm not going to settle for a disadvantage when there's no clear reason why Ness has trouble vs Olimar.

Ness = Olimar

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sonic, I'm not here to argue, but I just owned my friend's very competent Zelda/Sheik main with DDD about 20 times over(literally) via bair and grabbing. He wasn't a pushover, but it seemed sort of unfair. really.
DDD doesn;t have the advantage. I don't think even the DDD boards would argue that. If you are winning that easily, then you are better. I play mainly against omnigamer or pyrogame. Most of my friends would back me up that they are better than I am. I can't say how much, but they're better. And they're also both compitent DDDs, and play him often. Even so, My zelda has a CLEAR advantage every time we play that matchup.

true, this shouldn't be advantageous for her though. I just look at it as a normal grab with awesome range and a fail proof ftilt followup.
no, but it's worth mentioning as it hurts a lare part of hi game

not exactly. DDD won't just jump into your upsmash. He'll float diagonal to Zelda and try to get close enough to urge an upsmash and punish with a nasty bair. Plus, DDD is all about spacing. DDD won't be jumpin' around Zelda whilst airdodging begging for an upsmash.
this slope goes both ways. If you are saying you can trick zelda into Usmashing early, then she can just as easily trick you into using one of DDD's moves with lots of cooldown time. And are you sure bair goes through Usmash?

DDD's approach game is exceptional. I'm not sure what you mean. His bair can be performed twice in a SH, has better priority than kirby's sick WOP bair, and goes through Zelda's Din's, rendering it almost completely useless during this match.(question for thought: does hitting din's hit a move suffer DR? idk) but anyways, I've found that from a distance, DDD actually has the camping advantage. If Zelda forces it in close though, DDD can approach with bair.
it won't go through Din's unless the zelda has no idea how to use it. DDD's bair doesn't cover his whole body. Detonating Din's on the side of DDD where his foot isn't will result in a hit.

true. very true.
at least we are in agreement here

easier, but DDD's air game is arguably better than Zelda's. It's harder than just jumping into him. You have to account for many other factors including the insane fast fall ability DDD has. Also, DDD can punish approaching fairs. He can powershield and run-grab her about half a second after getting hit.(not that it's a good approach anyways. just saying...)
I never said that meant Zelda should go lighting kick crazy. But against ANY character, Zelda will try to land a lighting kick when the opportunity presents itself. Against DDD it's MUCH MUCH easier. She won't necesarily be using it more than she otherwise would. it's just when she DOES use it, it's much more likely to hit.

Not free, but it is easier for Zelda to sweetspot it. I use my jumps to get back to the stage more than the upb. DDD beats out Zelda when he has his jumps getting back to the stage.
It's free. Really it is. Granted, zelda has to be in position to take advantage of it, but if she's in position to attempt, DDD can do nothing to dodge it. and if she's not in postion, she can still punish in other ways.


not exactly. DDD's ftilt outrange's Zelda's fsmash(her most ranged move besides din's) His bair outprioritizes her fsmash, and they're both much faster in comparison.
I'm pretty sure bair has at most equal priority. Fsmash is very highly prioritized. Ftilt is fast I forgot about it, but it has enough cooldown to be punishable and he need to be spaced properly for it. But it's something to xonsider

haha, y'all in the zelda thread won't tell anyone how to DI out of her smashes anyways so... at least for me, It's not any different with any other character. lol
that's easy you just.... pry that secret from our could lifeless hands

thanks man.
no prob

P.S. I thought you mained Sheik also? w/e
I do, I just have no idea why shiek is advantaged.
Zelda's heavily advantaged enough that I always play her i that mathup.
Maybe DDD gets caught in Zheik's ftilit easily.
Also, shiek's aerial game works well against DDD since it's so much faster.
DDD's recovery can get him caught in a shiek Usmash... almost assured death.
But I really don't know

responses in blue

 

[menofuntall]

Can anyone explain why Zelda, Sheik, Samus, and Ness have advantages over DDD? Samus can be infinite cg-ed with standing dthrow and(correct me if I'm wrong) I though it was the same situation with Ness also?

Ness is only infinited by Marth and Charizard. I swear he was infinited by Squirtle, but I guess not. Ness still falls victim to Dedede's chain grab, though.

 

[DanGR]

Ness falls victim if the infinite cg to squirtle and not to DDD. He is however affected by DDD ledge finite dthrow cg. What I'm wondering is whether ness falls victim to DDD's infinite standing [still](my bad) dthrow cg, not the "hit ness a few times-grab-hit ness a few times-grab-cg."

 

[DanGR]

Ok.
Im sorry, but you're playing the role of the elitist here. You are saying that since I dont use all of my time towards perfecting my game for Ness and Olimar and rather work towards perfecting my G&W, that I have no basis in my argument. You're implying that anyone who has ever contributed in this thread who doesnt main the character should not be posting, or this is how it seems to me. What about everyone else here who's posted maybe a sentence or two, yet their main may show someone completely different. Does this change the validity of the matchup they presented? No.

I say it does, but ask everyone else. If everyone else agrees that not having first hand experience, but rather immense second hand experience qualifies a poster to argue a matchup in this thread, then so be it. I'll leave you alone about it. I'm not going to regard your experience anymore until more people respond. I'm sorry.

You cannot stop someone from pointing out things he saw wrong with you're matchup. You made points, I made rebuttals. I, in fact, know more about Brawl than just my own character.

I do too. I use other characters sometimes for fun, but I'd never visit other forums to discuss their advanced gameplay if I've never used them. I might point out one or two things in a thread somewhere if it pertains to something I've done though. Say...DDD-I've played him numerous times and I'm beginning to like his playstyle more and more. I posted in this very thread the matchup of DDD v Zelda. I wondered why it had zelda>DDD. I'm still not sure, but I'm not going to argue with my "opposition" over it in depth b/c I'm still not experienced enough.

Second, are you stupid? What makes you think im basing the discussion off of videos of the two? I have not even mentioned anything along the lines of "Well, in all the videos I've seen, the Ness beats up the Olimar real 'gud". You're making an assumption, and thats something you typically avoid.

I have nothing else to base my conclusion off of. You said you don't use ness or olimar and that your brothers play the characters. I assumed you watched them play.(and maybe others) I'm sorry you went through the trouble to go to training mode to test out some stuff.

"Many more"? Don't make vague references. Cite what you're trying to argue.
The first thing you brought up (the one that I shouldnt be arguing) is pretty much a carbon copy of what that one person said. I replied to him with my post:

I'm pretty sure I cited the thread "olimar v ness" in the olimar matchup thread. It's not worth going through the trouble to quote the entire thread if this is what you're asking.

and Rapid_Assassin didn't push that point any further. Now, you've brought up the same, exact, point, and you're citing someone who brought up the same thing, but you fail to mention that he dropped that point. I don't know whether this is because of lack of interest, the tangent we went off into in the thread, or he accepted it. I dont want to make that claim. The argument was dropped, but it resurfaced via you, but it isnt you're argument. He can fight the point if he wishes, but don't quote him saying that he's in the right.

I understand he didn't push the point. I am though, and I think he had something going. It's not wrong or incorrect to quote him saying he's in the right if he was indeed in the right. The point I'm making is that it doesn't matter who made the quote as long as it's true.

You claim my points were refuted, and that the posts in the thread back up your opinion, but what points and posts do this? There were a few, as I remember, who agreed that the matchup was hard for them. Others said they were inexperienced in this match. How can you claim these users dont know what they're talking about?

You're right. I can't claim who is correct from who posted what, but from participating in the olimar threads for over a month nearly every day since brawl came out, I can merely suggest who and who can't make valid arguments regarding olimar. Go ahead and call me a nerd, that's why we're here.

Which of my points were picked apart, and how many of these were major points?
Cite them for me. Do it.

ok, I will. I'll bring up every point you made that was picked apart by the experienced players in the matchup-even the points that don't influence the matchup.

Here, everything from http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170702 regarding counter rebuttals to your points. I didn't take the time to quote your responses b/c anyone can visit the thread to see them. Many of them were major points including edge game and approaching.

I destroy both Lucas and Ness. Could be playstyle combined with character advantage though. I think you did your part in arguing pretty much everything I would have said before that guy replied. Has he even played against an Olimar that knows and likes the matchup?

He may be able to knock a red pikmin off of him, but that means he's more prone to pivot grab, shield grab, up smash, uair.

Or.. he can just take the 2-3 damage and not pk fire.

Sure he can nair and knock a pikmin off whilst returning, but if he does up+b, you THEN throw the pikmin onto him. Also, special fall? Grab off stage? Whatever else.

Grab release does give Olimar a benefit. Say I have 2 white pikmin. I latched one to you and grabbed you. Now I'm mashing A. You've probably taken a good 50%+ from this already, but why would I throw you for 6% and little knockback, when I could ftilt you off the stage, latch another pikmin to you, and edge guard you aggressively? If I grabbed with purple or blue, yeah the throw is much better. But the white throws suck, and white's grab release combo is awesome.

Well, the white ones will do the most damage for that. I could still latch any other color (except purple), and grab with any other color, to do a lot of damage, but not quite 50%+. And if I grabbed with a color other than white, most of the time the throw is better, unless I'm just trying to make the throws not stale.

If you don't play either character, what exactly are you basing this off of? The lv. 9 cpu? Or theoretical scenarios that both players have seen, or won't happen in a match anyway because it's just dumb? A lot of your arguments assume that the Olimar player sucks, as in has no aim with his attacks and keeps running into PK Fire. If there were no way at all to maneuver around PK Fire for any character (as in, no one can move, shield, roll, or simply walk out of range), Ness would easily be the best character in the game. But that's clearly not the case.

I'm basing my info off of experience. Once I've learned the matchups, I pretty much stopped losing to anyone who wasn't phenomenal. Which isn't the case for anything evenly matched, or in their favor....

I still say throwing a red pikmin on him is a combo setup in itself.
If ness jumps and nairs or almost any other move (against a well placed pikmin) he has delay time and on most stages Olimar can run up and pivot grab, hyphen smash or shield grab.

After that, isn't Olimars uair > Ness' dair?
If Ness dodges, doesn't that mean Olimar's skill could do it just as well if the players are of the same skill level?

I completely agree with the pk fire landing on Olimar dealing an extremely high damage start. (PK fire, grab, dthrow, fair) but Olimar has his comboes that bring them up by alot too.

Olimar players should wait for the expected nair from Ness recovery. It's when Ness uses up+b that you latch for the gimp.

Also.. I hate when people say "My brother plays Olimar/Ness/Snake and my friend is a decent Pit/Olimar/Ness/Lucas/Snake."
This just means I can't follow the results unless there are videos or the two people are known players "My brother is NC-Echo" would be more acceptable, for instance.

When you say it like this.. I always somehow imagine the friend being just a worse player and the brother to be a younger player who plays matches with bob-ombs for fun.

I don't mean grab at nothing.. that doesn't make sense, but he does have landing lag, no? Either he jumps and does nair and you hyphen, or if he DIs backwards you can grab as he lands or DIs foward will be pivot grab.
He should shorthop nair to get it off, generally. This means you can do what I just had said.
SH and jab at the same time? Now unless you mean a part of his nair.. I don't even understand what you mean.

Upsmash kills Ness or most people at about 100 or so?
Ness is about the same?

Gimping I will say is in Ness' favor easily though.. However, don't rule out Olimar's tether recovery.. You can loop around Ness' up+b with Olimar's. If he does it earlier, then you can gimp him..

You just pretty much refuted anything I said besides the pro Ness points.
Now you are really assuming all Olimars are bad..

Generally, I believe most Olimar players throw pikmin while dodging attacks and such.
If you read the boards, most try to keep dstance and then fight at a higher percent, not all do it however and they will rush in with one or two lobbed and try to grab. Some smash and keep all four/five pikmin at use at all times.

You should know most of the attacks, but yes, WAC is a major part of his metagame I believe.
Any move besides maybe PK fire can be 100% WAC'ed. (Stationary, when in the air, the whole thing can be WAC'ed as well.

So obviously, you would attempt to WAC uairs, bairs, pk thunders, fairs, etc etc.
The only downfall is Ness' grabs, as with all SAFs, can land. However, if on the ground, I believe Olimar has the better. Especially if Red makes up even a third of his force.

If I see a Ness jump in the air, I'm not going to try to grab him. That's just dumb. I could just wait for him to land, and then grab him. Or, shorthop at him, trying to bait either an airdodge or a 2nd jump. If he airdodges, I f-air when the airdodge is over. If he 2nd jumps, just knock him out of the air and off the stage.

As for approaching, side b isn't his only approach. I could do pretty much any move he has, assuming that I time it properly. Or just run up to him and shield or dodge or do nothing, which works great every now and then for mindgames.

Wait a second DanGR, you're on Ness's side but now your on Ollie's side. Anyways I have no problem playing ness at all with Olimar.

[/QUOTE]
Though many are very vague, this shows some of the opposition to you, Mr. E.

And yet...

You're making a critical assumption.
That the Olimar will be competent, and the Ness not so much.
TL aiming his arrows? Alright, evenly skilled players, right? The other player will powershield.
You cannot assume that in a matchup that one player will be able to aim better than the other can evade. This would be a fallacy on your part, correct?

no, not correct. I hate to keep bringing this up, but it's vital that you have first hand experience versus olimar with ness. Many of your points throughout this discussion show that you have knowledge of the subject, but that you don't have experience.(I address this later as well, so hold in there) Yes, TL should aim arrows, and yes, a player can shield the arrows, but oimar's pikmen can't! you can shield them, but they keep coming. you can't keep it up for long before you have to move. If you choose to spotdodge, it doesn't work. They come too quickly for a sidestep to work. how about jumping and dodging-same thing. They come too quick for a player to just shield, sidestep, or airdodge them over and over-then kill. When you move, you give olimar the advantage. If you move back, olimar moves foward and repeats. So basically, in this matchup, you have to move towards olimar in the long run. correct?

Likewise, is the Ness player so incompetant that he doesnt know how to aim his PKT lower than the ledge? In offline play, AKA tournament play, a competant Ness player can handle this.

no, i'm not suggesting this. Even I, after playing as ness only a couple times, was able to do that consistently.

Fsmash off the ledge? You're underestimating the speed of PKT, and overestimating the range and capabilities of the Fsmash. There's a very small margin of time where the pikmin will stop it, as the PKT moves quickly, and theres blindspots.

the speed of pkt is rather slow actually. It takes about half a second to make a semicircle to propel ness foward. Is that fast? not really. The pikmen don't stop coming. If my pikmen are within range of ness, then they will land and ness' recovery will be gimped if he doesn't attack them.

The fsmash off the ledge is very reliable in if ness is out of range of pikmen throw. Do YOU know the range of a pikmen fsmash?(regular-blue) It outranges these notables:Zelda's fsmash, snake's ftilt, Bowser's fsmash, link's grab, and marth's fsmash. Anyone else care to try this out versus ness to prove my point?

All of your gimping scenario's are turning out to be situational, it appears.

if ness' recovering from afar is situational, then yes, it is situational.

Hardly, and thats assuming you can even force the Ness to nair.

As you said earlier, ness has to nair in order to fight off the pikmen latched to his body. fsmash off the ledge to gimp his recovery will punish this. maybe I misinterpreted your statement b/c it seems you're arguing for my side.

-Oh, i get it, ness can float infinitely and nair all the pikmen? yellows survive longer versus ness anyways b/c many of his attacks are electric. yellows arc over the edge. problem solved naturally. Plus, olimar's dair can be used to spike ness from above. If all else fails, Olimar can fall into ness when he has to use his recovery, and gimp him that way. If ness does make it back to the stage, It's hard for him to make it onto the stage safely with his mediocre range without getting grabbed or hurt.

Speaking of blind spots, you cannot argue that you can just move around to rearrange your trajectory. Why? Because each pikmin is thrown differently. You can't make the assumption that you'll have all yellows that you can lob over the side. You cannot assume that you'll have a white pikmin that you can throw far if you arent near the edge that will magically gimp him. It's actually very likely that Ness wont have to Nair because you'll probably miss with the first toss anyways

Here is another fallacy in your argument. I did not "argue that you can just move around to rearrange your trajectory" I said that yellow pikmen (ness has many electric attacks, thus preserving a few more yellow pikmen than usual) can come in handy to arc over the ledge to HELP (not all by itself) combat nairing. As i mentioned earlier, fsmashing pikmen off the edge prevents ness from recovering vertically. To your last statement-you can't assume we can't aim and hit ness with 1/6 pikmen.

What fallacy? I didnt say you made that argument, I said you cannot make that argument. Learn to read?

Anyone else see the fallacy? you clearly made the statement in your argument that suggested that I argued "that you can just move around to rearrange your trajectory." I made no reference to whether you can move around to rearrange your trajectory. You went on to prove your point through things that I DID say rather than what you made up. That's a fallacy.

Fsmash is very situational, why do you reference yourself so much? Try not to tote it as fact until the other person gives their input. If they leave it alone or concede, then you can cite it.

I quote it as fact b/c it is fact and facts greatly impact any argument in general.

about your earlier quote:

Ness will be more effective when off the edge, so chasing him off with the pikmin toss is a bad choice, as he can recover farther than you, and he's a bullet of awesome when PKT hits him, and his PKT hits him FAST. To hit him far enough that he'll have to recover means you're not near the edge, so I doubt you can make it there and off quickly enough.

This isnt a fallacy, as I do remember an Olimar user, whether it be yourself or another in the thread, claiming that Olimar could essentially chase Ness off the stage whilst throwing pikmin and could follow up with his spike.

This could also be interpreted as just throwing the pikmin off, as a chase, but not actually leaving the stage.

Whoever said this doesn't play very smart. It's very bad to jump off the stage while throwing pikmen. You never specified who said it, thus naturally implying that I was the one who said it.

You must have a short attention span or something:

You brought that up, and I replied that Ness' has a better spike. Much better power (more knockback than Ganon's at the lower percents), being able to do a rising spike because of Ness' beastly second jump, and the fact that it's less situational because Ness will actually chase off the edge, unlike Olimar.

Oh, and he has a combo that leads into his spike.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=171131

Never-the-less, it still doesn't belong in that paragraph. It's stronger. Does that support your evidence that ness has no disadvantage versus olimar recovering? It doesn't.

I'm beginning to sound like a professor teaching Law. Sorry. I'll quit with the paragraph structuring and fallacy criticism.

{QUOTE]You keep saying "another fallacy".

I would actually argue this because all Olimar has on Ness in terms of grabbing is longer shield grabbing range, where Ness has a better dashgrab. Plus, the grab range is varying for Olimar because of the different pikmin. It's not as consistent. [/QUOTE]

The low range on olimar's purple pikmen(not compared to other characters, but rather to the other pikmen) is recognized by all olimar users. It won't be used to grab very often. Everything else has GREAT range and that's where I'm coming from that olimar's grab>ness' grab.

Olimar's Dair isn't as good as Ness', as I pointed out.
Ness' Uair is a killing move, where Olimar's is for comboing. It beats Olimar's spike, I think.
I don't know the range, but you're right about the priority. I kept breaking through so I couldn't test the range. So his Fair is better in the matchup.
Slower and much weaker. Ness' is a great killer, Olimar's is a spacing tool.

Olimar's dair is considered a very good, quick and powerful spike by most players. It doesn't have the power ness' has, but it's hitbox is larger, and it comes out quicker.

Olimar's upair isn't for comboing, it's for combo finishing. It has great priority, range, power, quickness, and but a little lag.

Ness' upair beats olimar's spike, yes, but it shouldn't be used to combat spiking. In upairing while recovering, you're sacrificing your chance to recover. People don't spike when one has the option to attack back-THEN recover. People spike when their opponent only has the one option to recover. This eliminates the chance to recover and results in a death. yay!

You compared them by what Olimar's was better at, but you didnt mention how Ness' was superior, save for speed, or how it's relevant to the matchup.

I'm not going to discuss why they're superior b/c that's your job. I did however compare the quickness.(aka speed)

Okay, you agree that Ness' fair wins out in this matchup.
The bair can kill easily, and it will rarely be paired vs Olimar's Bair, so I dont see your point here.

I'm not sure you understood me. I was just comparing the two bairs. not against each other. yes, olimar's bair would beat ness', but it's irrelevant like you said.

I have the right, though, just that you refuse to acknowledge it. That's your problem, not mine. I can argue any matchup I have sufficient enough info for.

If your information is correct and your hypothetical situations are correct, then I have no problem discussing this with you.

So what are the combo's that this[(being olimar's upair)] finishes?
It better be something good because Ness has great aerial control, and laggy attacks are typically punished.

It's not necesarily a "combo" finisher as we all know that real"combos" are very hard to come by, but it is very hard to avoid after these "combos" if the olimar player moves olimar correctly:
dthrow, upair
upthrow,upair
uptilt,upair
They're not really combos, but they are perfect for setting up for an upair.

The rest of that quote is still spot on, though.

the quote being:

I'm dismissing it as a threat BECAUSE Ness will not ever go for the spike on the stage. He wont drop down on Olimar and use his spike. He will use his spike off the stage, and Olimar will probably not want to use his Uair because of his ****ty recovery. The best you can do is airdodge or WAC. Uair is only going to see use in Olimar's combos, which will be few because of his crappy approaches.

Ok, he won't go for the spike on stage. good. He'll use his spike off stage. not good. how many pikmen are you supposing I have when recovering? 1? 3? 6? I'm not sure.

If I have 1, then I won't be going for the stage b/c if I'm close enough to latch, I will have latched already before the spike gets off. Instead, if I'm can't make it anways, I'll upair you to get some extra damage onto you before I die.

If I have 4, It's the same situation, but I might be able to catch the ledge. It's not very likely, but it's not ruled out.

If I have all 6, I can get the upair off most of the time, and get back safely. While Olimar's latch is a horrible recovery, it has very good recovery range. I can be below vision of the screen and latch onto the ledge with all 6 pikmen.

So, if you can spike me to my death, you're better off just edgehogging instead.

Erroneous fallacy fallacy fallacy fallacy!!
It doesnt give any more validity to your post by using those nice buzz words, and there was only one point that turned out to be correct, which turned out to just be a miswroding on my part. Your other "fallacies" didn't do anything to help your matchup.

In fact, the whole point to this post hasnt been to argue the crucial points of my argument, has it? It's been to poke holes in my smaller statements to discredit me that way. I can understand if you have trouble thinking of counter arguments, but attacking the unimportant details to make it seem that I'm wrong is pretty low, IMO.

I may be taunting some things, but it's because I'm pretty frustrated at how you've gone about this whole matchup. I make huge replies, and you return with the fallacy card, ignoring anything of value I may have made. It's pretty much my attitude. I'm not doing this because I feel like I'm losing this argument, I'm just genuinely upset that I have to make huge post after huge post instead of looking at other matchups.

What you are seemingly doing doesnt make you look too wonderful, though.

and

my points arent wrong. Just because you choose not to target the sound points that put this matchup in a neutral favor, doenst make them wrong. You can claim they are wrong, but you havent made a slight attempt at them.

"Your arguments in this matchup are quite obviously wrong"

prove this then. You spent a lot of energy picking at my previous post, so now try and move that energy into making a real argument why you think Ness is SERIOUSLY DISADVANTAGED. Gimping is situational, Ness can approach, and he generally does a decent time vs your approach attempts and spacing.

"so go ahead, prove me wrong with FACTS, not with conclusions drawn while watching your brothers play each other."

The ONLY reason I'm pointing out your grammar mistakes and your inexperience in the matchup is that they greatly impacted your reasoning and they justified statements-otherwise untrue imo.

I'm sorry this turned into a personal attack on you, I didn't mean for it to turn out this way, but it did in your eyes. Sorry everyone. Sorry Mr. Escalator.


I'd still like more people's opinion on whether personal experience should matter as much as second hand experience when discussing advanced matchups. Does anyone else get into detail without even using the character they're discussing? This will probably turn into another thread or somethin'.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Ness falls victim if the infinite cg to squirtle and not to DDD. He is however affected by DDD ledge finite dthrow cg. What I'm wondering is whether ness falls victim to DDD's infinite standing [still](my bad) dthrow cg, not the "hit ness a few times-grab-hit ness a few times-grab-cg."

He doesn't fall victim to the standing one.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Also, it's finally nice to see some Ness love. DanGr isn't going to blindly toss a character aside, he'll likely do some research.

 

[Brahma]

A lot of those DK matches are way off.

DK vs. Mario. This match is in DK's favor by far. DK outranges Mario hard, his Bair alone can hit Mario out of about everything. Same goes for Ftilt. DK can kill reliably around 100%. Mario can combo DK farily well, but has a very hard time killing him. I'd say this match is a big advantage for DK.

DK vs. Olimar. DK SH Bair approach attacks from an angle which Oli has a hard time defending. Olimar is light, and get's KO'd eaily. Around 70%ish, and DK has not problem racking that damage on Oli. His tilts kill Pikmin easily, and he can beat Oli on the ground too. DownB outranges his grab. Bair outranges his aerials. Oli can kill DK fairly well, and since he can rack damage, it's not all bad. Personally I think this is a big advantage for DK, but I would be fine with a slight advantage for DK.

DK vs. Jigglypuff. I've been playing this match a lot lately. Bair outranges pretty much all of Jigg's aerials. Without Fair or Bair approach, Jigg's has a lot of problems. Shielded pound is punishable by Utilt or Dsmash. She dies early, like 70%+. She has some pretty good kills on DK (rollout, smashes), but she has trouble racking damage on DK because of his range and priority. I'd say a big advantage for DK.

DK vs. Kirby. I haven't played this match in a while, but I really don't know what Kirby has on DK that would give him an advantage. The standard range + KO power applies here. I'd give it a slight advantage to DK just on that. Anyone care to elaborate on this matchup?

DK vs. Diddy I would give slight advantage to DK. If you can deal with bananas (shield, sh catch) DK can use them just as well as Diddy. DK's glide toss puts a lot of pressure on the little guy. Again, range + KO power helps a lot in this match. Diddy has a very hard time killing DK.

I'd be happy to elaborate on these if anyone feels differently.

 

[StripesOrBars]

DDD/SNake is definitely even.

They both own each other on and off the stage.

Snake has good projectiles, while DDD has the chain grab.

Snake's recovery is easily owned by DDD's air game, and DDD's recovery is a bit more forgiving until the higher percents when Snake's grenades(amound other attacks) kill DDD when he's of the legde.

Plus they both die at around the same percent.

This match up is the new Fox/Marth.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

There's a BIG problem with this chart that I just realized.

It's often being quoted to justify tier placements. Inevitable innaccuracies aside, Pokemon trainer is really screwing up the results. Why? because he's getting judged as 3 separate matchups only. Any PT player has to be profecient i all his pokes because, unlike Zelda/Shiek and Samus/ZSS, PT is FORCED to switch his pokes. As such, he has to play at least two of them in almost all matches.

For the matchups to be far more accurate, PT's pokes need to be taken out of the list (you should put them in their own list at the bottom or something)

And PT nees to be put in. I'd take the average of his two best matchups to accurately reflect how he stacks up

In the event that it falls in between ratings (i.e. the best two matchups are slight advantage and neutral) round up because the advantaged poke can be used for 2/3 the battle.

This is unless that advantage is VERY slight, in which case you should probably round down

 

[StripesOrBars]

Um, no that's stupid.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Um, no that's stupid.

thank you so much for your useful posts.

 

[StripesOrBars]

It's individual matchups.

How well that character will do vs another.

There's no need to complicate the list.