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Care to explain in greater detail?
And to add to that, side B and I believe down B go through missile spam, no missiles for her!
I also main Sonic and killing is Not easy. Gimping is his best option if possible since his moves don't kill until around 140% or higher. Everything else I agree.
I have no offline experience with people as I know no one in my area that plays smash well. But the result there would certainly be even worse. He is teh Ultimate MIND GAME! Your Too SLOW ! LOL
simple... Bowser should be low tier too <_<
Really now?
fixed
Jab counters most approaches though. I haven't seen a lot of Ganons use jab as an approach. So I don't see what the jab has to do with my argument that Ike's jab can cancel Ganondorfs approaches. Ike can do a lot of other things in close range.
Vertical recovery is what I'm talking about. And on a safe height, quickdraw isn't as gimped that easy. Because even if you miss you can still reach the ledge, I've used this a lot of times. And slow attack speed? And Ike has some fast moves you know.
Lol, any attack can "just be dodged or shielded". Also, as long as Ike jumps backwards before he can use nair. Fair is just to pressure.
But you see, Jab, nair and QD are probably the most important moves in Ike's arsenal for approaching and getting priority. Bair is his most useful killing move. And his smashes might be faster be Ike only needs to use usmash anyway. And dsmash if ganon rolls too much.
Erm, nair is pretty fast as well, also Ike's Jab > Ganons jab. It's the AA and AAA combo's that do it. Anyway, yeah we might want to have a good Ganon play a reasonable to good Ike just to show the advantage.
Maybe he just doesn't think your opinion is so much more important then those of everyone else that he changes it without any discussion just because you post it over and over again. So stop reposting please. Also, have you ever actually seen a Zelda beat a Diddy Kong?
if you read my other posts of this you would see i asked for anyone to agree or disagree with what i wrote. since no one disagreed with it and at least one person agreed and i did not feel like repeating myself again asking for someone to discuss when i know no one will.
-Oh, i get it, ness can float infinitely and nair all the pikmen? yellows survive longer versus ness anyways b/c many of his attacks are electric. yellows arc over the edge. problem solved naturally. Plus, olimar's dair can be used to spike ness from above. If all else fails, Olimar can fall into ness when he has to use his recovery, and gimp him that way. If ness does make it back to the stage, It's hard for him to make it onto the stage safely with his mediocre range without getting grabbed or hurt.
They're not slow at all. All of Olimar's attacks are fast and have great priority, so I'm not sure what point you're arguing here.
Olimar's upair outranges ness' dair easily. Olimar's fair outranges ness' fair and his bair, so you're wrong on this one too. Olimar's dair outranges ness' upair, so...
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. It doesn't make sense at all.
how so?
//
not true.
ok, olimar's upair has BEASTLY priority. You'd know that if you mained ness OR olimar. It goes right through his spike and it's faster too. Olimar's upair outranges and prioritizes every move ness has, so no, it is a threat btw.
Ok, you've got me. Ness can kill pikmen. So what? so can everyone else, and pretty easily might I add. Olimar's purpose in throwing pikmen in the first place is get you to use those moves like to bat and the yoyo. Whether you want to realize it or not, When you jump and kill the pikmen, you're giving olimar the advantage right there. It's quite easy for olimar to run in and grab you when you land or to throw more pikmen, whether you airdodge, pk1, attack by other means or not.
Pikmen aren't for camping with. They're for distracting opponents and following up. The pikmen serve very well to nullify pk1 as I mentioned earlier in a different post.
ok, so it reflects. Big deal. Nayru's love reflects, but it still isn't any good versus olimar? He can run in and grab when ness pulls out the bat.
It doesn't outrange olimar's shieldgrab. None of ness' attacks do. Olimar's grab outranges snakes ftilt and can shieldgrab it every time.
It's a viable approach against most characters, but against olimar it isn't. It doesn't have much range versus, and olimar can jump over it and throw. easy.
how so?
it is an approach and it works v ness if you ever get in the situation.
His air game is on par and his ground game is abysmal versus olimar. Every attack ness has can get shieldgrabbed or fsmashed
what other approach methods does he have besides fair and pk1?(which doesn't work)
what the heck? how does it "work wonders"? It's a recovery option.
You haven't played ness v olimar ever, have you.
how so?
All olimar has to do in this situation is get below ness and he'll shine with upair and uptilt.
not true.
It doesn't create a shield unless I'm throwing pikmen standing. olimar players jump and throw.
yoyo does nothing. It doesn't outrange the shieldgrab. ness grabs are near to impossible to get on olimar b/c he's the master of spacing. This is what olimar players have to do-space well. If they don't, they're not any better than CF.
just don't argue the matchup if you don't use either one.
I would.
Ok, I addressed this in the stupid thread you made because you can't argue, but I suppose I'll address it here, too.
They're slower than Ness' moves in the air, which also have a better range horizontally. The only thing that can even stop Ness from carrying you to your doom is the WAC, and thats it. Ness will beat you on the edge every time, so all you can do is try to front off his attacks.
Wrooooong.
If Olimar is coming down and landing on the stage just above the ledge, Ness can Dtilt, which knocks your pikmin off, and then Olimar, past the edge, so he cant recover. Thats what I meant by gimping him with kicks.
Ness' horizontal aerials are better.
They also have similar speed, but it's true for the most part.
I'm dismissing it as a threat BECAUSE Ness will not ever go for the spike on the stage. He wont drop down on Olimar and use his spike. He will use his spike off the stage, and Olimar will probably not want to use his Uair because of his ****ty recovery. The best you can do is airdodge or WAC. Uair is only going to see use in Olimar's combos, which will be few because of his crappy approaches.
Sigh.
The pikmin don't give you any advantage, and they definitely dont put Ness at a disadvantage. If you rely on them to distract your opponent, like a ****ty version of Diddy's bananas, you're going to do very little to Ness. His approaches mess you up, and he's not too afraid of pikmin getting on him.
You're ignoring the lag on your throw. You throw, he bats, Yellow misses, he puts away. He can do what he wants. If you go faster, you get sweet spotted with the bat, which kills great. I'm not saying the bat is something you want to do, it's just another thing In Ness' arsenal that you can consider.
Maybe because he lunges forward as he tilts?
It's a very viable approach vs Olimar, and you're silly to dismiss it. Do you know what it does? It gives a large boost after PK firing, which means, even if you do dodge it, you'll be hard pressed to punish. Srsly.
You're annoying. Stop asking me to explain the obvious. Just think for a moment.
It's a decent way to approach, but approaching Ness is a bad choice, and the situation is rare.
Wow. NO.
You're saying it isn't viable again, showing your ignorance. His Fair is the staple and amazing. It can be strung together and really puts pressure on Olimar. PK Fire approaching is extremely hard to punish, so it's laughable to assume that it's not viable in this matchup.
SIGHSIGHSIGH
Nope, cant say I have.
How many times must you ask?
Sorry, but you don't understand the effects of PK Jumping. You cant just go under him.
Thats not my quote.
It creates a shield if it hits any pikmin at any range or height.
You greatly underestimate Ness.
Ok, honestly.
Ike has two quick attack moves. Only two. Priority isn't even an issue because since Ike is so much slower than Ganondorf, the likely hood of two attacks hitting at the same time is rare.
EDIT-I understand now. And I have a question.
I've already explained before, Bair doesn't do crap to Ganondorf. It's weak, and easily DIed out of. Egg throw has to be aimed and can't be spammed like say Pits Arrows.
Whether you think I'm ignorant or not is not my problem. I base my sayings on the overal statistics of the characters. Their ups and their downs and see how they coreleate with each other.
Actually I think I've done a pretty darn good job of explaining my reasons, unlike you. Who are you to question me on how ignorant and biasesd I am when you yourself haven't proven anything and have said nothing but "this character>that character. In fact, why don't you explain how Capt falcon>Ganondorf or how Squirtle>Ganondorf which you yourself so believe in.
It's a grab move, and AFAIK, grab moves don't trigger Counter moves and either pass through invincibility frames or grab them out of vulnerability frames.
i didnt know there were negative combo potentials in brawl?
Which is completely wrong, you won't know what works and what doesn't. In theory, Falco's dthrow doesn't add to much into a Ganon - Falco debate, until you play him. You see, you might think Ike his jab and bair are "just 2 moves" but that IS ignorant. Ike his jab is really important to his playstyle and bair is his best killing move. So yeah your gonna have to deal with them one way or the other.
And you call me ignorant. Tsk tsk tsk.
Ganon does have better reach, just pointing that out. Yoshi's camping game is well, annoying. It'll defintely help out, and it certainly keeps Ganon from afar. But it just can't be spammed like most other projectitles.
There is no negative combos. I never said there was. I said Ganondorf has more combo capability than Ike and the "Lists of All True Combos List" vouches for me there.
