Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Blad01]

Ganon has a large advantage over Ike.

(:@)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think Ike Beats Gdorf... if for nothing else then the fact that Ike is actually faster than him... Ike's normally only hindered becasue he's so slow... but I'm not sure what the dorf could possibly do to get inside of Ike's sword.

 

[Blad01]

I'm not sure what the dorf could possibly do to get inside of Ike's sword.

Forward B or Down B will do this job perfectly ^^

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Forward B or Down B will do this job perfectly ^^

down B should just pary... sideB will NOT go through Ike's sword unless he's dumb enough to do a smash that won't come out in time.

 

[Kiwikomix]

What if Ike decides not to let Ganon just run in with those, and instead hits with an f-tilt or f-smash or d-smash or u-smash or u-tilt or d-tilt, all of which have more range? Ike's disjoint has far more priority than anything Ganon has.

 

[MysticKenji]

Truth hurts huh Gleam.

But seriously, Ike beats Ganondorf just like the rest of the cast.

There should be an X in every single column for Ganondorf.

He has no neutrals and no advantage match ups.

But that would mean that Falcon can beat someone (who isn't Squirtle).

 

[Gleam]

Truth hurts huh Gleam.

But seriously, Ike beats Ganondorf just like the rest of the cast.

There should be an X in every single column for Ganondorf.

He has no neutrals and no advantage match ups.

Firstly, that's just being ignorant.

Secondly, if you're going to say Ike beats Ganon, at least back it up with some facts.

Ganon has a large advantage over Ike.


(:@)

I wouldn't say Ganon has a LARGE advantage, but I am believe he's getting to the advantage point.

I think Ike Beats Gdorf... if for nothing else then the fact that Ike is actually faster than him... Ike's normally only hindered becasue he's so slow... but I'm not sure what the dorf could possibly do to get inside of Ike's sword.

Thing is, Running speed doesn't mean jack if you don't have the attack speed to correlate with it. Heck, Falcon's the second fastest character in the game, yet his moves are as slow as Ganondorf.

Same thing goes for Ike but worst. Ike is slower than Ganondorf. Ike's sword is the one thing that's really keeping me from blantantly saying Ganondorf>Ike. With the ability to space himself, Ike will pose problem there.

What if Ike decides not to let Ganon just run in with those, and instead hits with an f-tilt or f-smash or d-smash or u-smash or u-tilt or d-tilt, all of which have more range? Ike's disjoint has far more priority than anything Ganon has.

All the attacks you mentioned are all slower than whatever attack Ganondorf can dish out. I'd be downright surprise if F-smash hit anything, lag or not. Ike will suffer much more from his lag than Ganondorf will.

Both of the can wait to attack, if Ike attack firsts, Ganondorf will dodge. Ike has to many slow attacks, and disjointed hitbox or not, Ganondorf can dodge, or even better, shield.

Ike can wait for Ganon to attack, and punish on his lag, but it stands that since Ike has more lag, he'll suffer more when he misses.

Plus I've got to go on Ike's recovery which just plain out sucks. Up-B has VERY little verticle recovery. Quick draw, Ike's best horizontal recovery, can practically be jumped into, gimping Ike and sending him to his doom.

And I can't say directly on every attack, but Flame choke does go through Counter.

 

[SothE700k]

...can we get a sticky on this thread?!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

why bother? it's always front page?

 

[DanGR]

Hey, I didn't get any kind off response to this earlier post a while ago. I'm reposting it.

I'm daring to be bold. Please don't flame me. Anyone else think Oly has a small advantage over Snake?(yes, I said it-a weakness...)

Olimar outranges all his tilts,grabs,and smashes. The projectiles might be even. All Olimar has to do is shield any fast approach snake has and he's got the match wrapped up. I can explain further if you like, but I'd like some feedback as well. Here's a good example of one of olimar's glaring advantages at 1:12. It's his protection against the infamous jab and tilt.

PsychoMidget(snake) v Bryan(olimar)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCHNEx507yE&NR=1

It's not his best performance, I know, and this video doesn't sum up the entire matchup, but for me, at least, it's very persuasive. speaks much does a good player losing.(my yoda impersonation, if you don't mind)

Thoughts?

P.s.-in no way or form am i suggesting snake<olimar overall in tiers. To prove my point, read my sig. enjoy the vid.

 

[Morrigan]

...can we get a sticky on this thread?!

Not worth it.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Im not too knowledgeable about Olimar, but you were right about the video, it was very persuasive. I'm not sure about an advantage, but it seems that Olimar has a firm place as a Neutral matchup. Maybe advantageous, but I would like to hear from both sides.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I actually use G&W as my secondary so I know what I'm talking about. Of coarse I was wrong about the oil panic thing, but thats because I always stop using projectiles against G&W when he has two bucket stocks (I know thats a lame excuse but its true). G&W does not have a distinct advantage against Lucas if you take away how he can gimp his recovery, and I told you how Lucas can easily do that earlier.
Maybe a small disadvantage on Lucas's part, maybe neutral, but definitely not a large disadvantage.

 

[omegablackmage]

hmm well to the kirby mains i was discussing the gw and kirby matchup with. I looked into these combos a little more, and was a little surprised. I didn't realize that out of the forward throw that up air was practically automatic, which certainly does open his combo game up a bit more vs gw. Good points were brought up by you guys, i suppose we'll have to leave this at a small advantage for gw.

Vs lucas - the zap jump thing will only take lucas so far. essentially if you hear the pk fire noise you can get a box ready to hit lucas as he will probably move into you. Agreed that this is better for lucas avoiding being gimped, but he's still going to get sent back out by gw's bow if the gw player has any reaction time at all. Given that lucas depends alot on his projectiles vs characters that have more range than him, gw destroys lucas because of the bucket. Whether you punish the gw player for bucketing projectiles or not, your going to get punished a lot harder as soon as the gw player lands a grab. still a big advantage for gw.

Large advantages that still need to be changed for GW:
Mario
Ness
Peach
Yoshi
Zelda

What are people's opinions on:
Gw vs sonic
Gw vs squirtle
Gw vs luigi
?

 

[Mattnumbers]

Vs lucas - the zap jump thing will only take lucas so far. essentially if you hear the pk fire noise you can get a box ready to hit lucas as he will probably move into you. Agreed that this is better for lucas avoiding being gimped, but he's still going to get sent back out by gw's bow if the gw player has any reaction time at all. Given that lucas depends alot on his projectiles vs characters that have more range than him, gw destroys lucas because of the bucket. Whether you punish the gw player for bucketing projectiles or not, your going to get punished a lot harder as soon as the gw player lands a grab. still a big advantage for gw.

Your right about a lot of this but I still think that G&W should only have a normal advantage. Also, a zap jump is pretty fast, unless the G&W was already over the edge I don't think he could punish it.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

omega i still don't think zelda has any large disadvantages against anyone the most i feel would be a 7:3 and i think a large advantage is a 8-10 so i don't think g&w has a large advantage on zelda.

i do think G&W is one of the hardest fights for zelda but do to him being light and zelda having a good reach with a disjointed hitbox and a up-smash of the gods i don't feel it should be a large disavantage for zelda just a normal disadvantage

 

[A2ZOMG]

G&W being light is hardly a disadvantage for him. It technically means he dies at low percents, except it's hard as hell to get him to those percents most of the time, so basically he doesn't die easily. Plus, he never gets gimped because his recovery is too good.

And rather if you land in one of G&W's kill moves such as his Smashes, you'll die much earlier than he will.

Vs G&W is really bad because he outranges her with aerials and NULLIFIES HER CAMPING GAME.

Zelda is extremely camping oriented, because she is one of the worst approachers in Brawl. G&W's Bucket leaves her only a few options which aren't safe. She has to either approach him, spam Dins Fire to fill up his Bucket before it will hurt him (which results in risking getting OHKOed), or bait out one of his huge *** aerials which are hard as hell to punish without a camping game, which she essentially won't have when G&W can easily Bucket any Din's Fire she tosses at him.

If you don't tech the D-throw, he can easily get a Bucket kill from a D-throw. If you shield his Bucket, it might break your shield due to being grossly overpowered. Yeah. Zelda really loses out to G&W massively.

As for G&W vs Sonic is a joke lol. Sonic isn't Metaknight. He's garbage. As far as I'm concerned G&W should just go all out to approach Sonic and not give him any space to run away. Or heck, I don't think Sonic can get past G&W's D-tilt at all, unless he uses something ultra telegraphed like a homing attack or a D-air, which can be stopped by the U-tilt. Having HUGE *** priority >>>>>>>> having no priority.

Dunno about Luigi honestly. Luigi can score some vertical kills with a U-smash dash cancel and with N-airs, but that's it. Dunno if this is a big or normal advantage for G&W, since Luigi's game isn't shut down by Bucketing to the same extent as against Mario.

 

[VersatileBJN]

What facts do ya need Gleam?

Ike has big range, big priority, big HITBOX

He has quick moves that are safe if spaced properly.


These are all things Ganondorf doesn't have.

C.falcon doesn't have an advantage match up in my opinion outside of Ganondorf.

 

[Empy]

Thing is, Running speed doesn't mean jack if you don't have the attack speed to correlate with it. Heck, Falcon's the second fastest character in the game, yet his moves are as slow as Ganondorf.

Same thing goes for Ike but worst. Ike is slower than Ganondorf. Ike's sword is the one thing that's really keeping me from blantantly saying Ganondorf>Ike. With the ability to space himself, Ike will pose problem there.

Wait? Ike is slower then Ganondorf now? When the hell did that happen. Ganondorf has no moves to punish Ike his ftilt, utilt, nair or bair. Also, bair **** Ganondorf. Now Ike can simply outrange Gagon the entire match. And use jab to counter any incoming attacks.

All the attacks you mentioned are all slower than whatever attack Ganondorf can dish out. I'd be downright surprise if F-smash hit anything, lag or not. Ike will suffer much more from his lag than Ganondorf will.

Both of the can wait to attack, if Ike attack firsts, Ganondorf will dodge. Ike has to many slow attacks, and disjointed hitbox or not, Ganondorf can dodge, or even better, shield.

It's not like Ike ever uses Fsmash, besides if you whiff your dair or something. Also, Ike can just fair the crap out of Ganon making sure he has to approach. And since Ike his attacks are not slower then any of Ganon his attacks (I have no idea what your using), it's pretty easy to just jab him.

Ike can wait for Ganon to attack, and punish on his lag, but it stands that since Ike has more lag, he'll suffer more when he misses.

Plus I've got to go on Ike's recovery which just plain out sucks. Up-B has VERY little verticle recovery. Quick draw, Ike's best horizontal recovery, can practically be jumped into, gimping Ike and sending him to his doom.

And I can't say directly on every attack, but Flame choke does go through Counter.

LoL @ that, yes Ike can wait for Ganon to attack and yes he can punish on his lag and no Ike will not have any lag, at all. He'll just use his jab again, or utilt Ganon to do nair > uair, uair>uair or fair him off the stage.

Ike his Aether does not have VERY little verticle recovery at all. Ike's best horizontal recovery is just moving towards the stage (floaty Brawl = floaty). Or use his quickdraw on a safe (high) height. Also, Ganondorf can't gimp Ike like some of the rest of the cast.

Of course Flame choke goes through counter, it's a grab, no Ike is gonna try to use Counter on a grab. :/ That's plain moronic. Ike can cancel the flamechoke with a jab (seriously, if Ike just holds A what's Ganon gonna do?) or use quickdraw. That's right, if Ganon does side b and Ike does this as well, Ike wins.

Have you ever beaten an Ike with Ganon? Cause I've played loads of Ganondorfs and they all hate to make that approach your so confident about.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

zelda doesn't have any hard counters to her.

sonic, however, does: Luigi... and that needs to be added

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

One of the best posts I have read in awhile, really interesting.

The only thing, is I think MK has a large advantage over Zamus. Maybe not though, just giving my 2 cents.

Edit: After looking a little more, it seems to me G&W and Wario are made out to be better then they actually are (especially Wario).

 

[DanGR]

Is this chart influenced by chaingrabs? If not, then go ahead and give Olimar the disadvantage over 10 more characters b/c you'd have to be discluding grabs too, am I wrong?

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Wait? Ike is slower then Ganondorf now?

Yes. Ganon's moves come out faster than Ike's.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

G&W being light is hardly a disadvantage for him. It technically means he dies at low percents, except it's hard as hell to get him to those percents most of the time, so basically he doesn't die easily. Plus, he never gets gimped because his recovery is too good.

And rather if you land in one of G&W's kill moves such as his Smashes, you'll die much earlier than he will.

Vs G&W is really bad because he outranges her with aerials and NULLIFIES HER CAMPING GAME.

Zelda is extremely camping oriented, because she is one of the worst approachers in Brawl. G&W's Bucket leaves her only a few options which aren't safe. She has to either approach him, spam Dins Fire to fill up his Bucket before it will hurt him (which results in risking getting OHKOed), or bait out one of his huge *** aerials which are hard as hell to punish without a camping game, which she essentially won't have when G&W can easily Bucket any Din's Fire she tosses at him.

If you don't tech the D-throw, he can easily get a Bucket kill from a D-throw. If you shield his Bucket, it might break your shield due to being grossly overpowered. Yeah. Zelda really loses out to G&W massively..

you can't say g&w being light is not a weakness b/c its hard to give him dmg he is i think the 2nd lightest in the game and that is a major weaknesses. 2nd g&w has no projectile that will make zelda come to him so i don't see why you say zelda will have to approach also zelda's approch is not that bad when used right.
g&w fair has lag to it and can be punished also zelda's up-air beats his dair out which leaves g&w with his bair (which is very good don't get me wrong). Also zelda's up-air out prioritizes gw's dair. it is true g&w can kill at low %'s and i am not saying zelda has the advantage on g&w just that she has a fighting chance and the fight is only a 7:3

 

[The Executive]

THE CHART, IT IS FINISHED!!!

Well done, sir.

 

[The_Dyne]

Being light does have a small advantage, it makes him harder to "combo."

 

[VersatileBJN]

Dyne how do you win as a Ganondorf/Sonic main? You must be some kind of prodigy.

The chart is nowhere finished. It has flaws left and right.

How does Squirtle lose to Ganondorf for an example out of 20.

GW vs Zelda is interesting. Characters who can camp out hardcore, do big damage and have decent range can make GW work a little harder than most. However, when it all comes down to it, he's too strong and bair is way too good.

I'd say GW has a small advantage.

 

[Gleam]

Wait? Ike is slower then Ganondorf now? When the hell did that happen. Ganondorf has no moves to punish Ike his ftilt, utilt, nair or bair. Also, bair **** Ganondorf. Now Ike can simply outrange Gagon the entire match. And use jab to counter any incoming attacks.




It's not like Ike ever uses Fsmash, besides if you whiff your dair or something. Also, Ike can just fair the crap out of Ganon making sure he has to approach. And since Ike his attacks are not slower then any of Ganon his attacks (I have no idea what your using), it's pretty easy to just jab him.





LoL @ that, yes Ike can wait for Ganon to attack and yes he can punish on his lag and no Ike will not have any lag, at all. He'll just use his jab again, or utilt Ganon to do nair > uair, uair>uair or fair him off the stage.

Ike his Aether does not have VERY little verticle recovery at all. Ike's best horizontal recovery is just moving towards the stage (floaty Brawl = floaty). Or use his quickdraw on a safe (high) height. Also, Ganondorf can't gimp Ike like some of the rest of the cast.

Of course Flame choke goes through counter, it's a grab, no Ike is gonna try to use Counter on a grab. :/ That's plain moronic. Ike can cancel the flamechoke with a jab (seriously, if Ike just holds A what's Ganon gonna do?) or use quickdraw. That's right, if Ganon does side b and Ike does this as well, Ike wins.

Have you ever beaten an Ike with Ganon? Cause I've played loads of Ganondorfs and they all hate to make that approach your so confident about.

Yes, Ike is slower than Ganondorf. I don't think I really need to explain that. Jab isn't going to counter everything, for one its already out reached by a simple Jab from Ganondorf. I'd say Ike is the slowest attacking character in the game to be honest.


Ike's aether has HORRIBLE horizontal recovery. So I'm not sure what you're talking about. Safe height or not, Quick draw is perhaps the easiest gimped recovery in the entire game. How bad can it be when you're oppoent can just jump in front of you, take a little bit of damage, while Ike falls to his doom. Next to his slow attack speed, Ike's recovery is going to to completely wreck him.

Most of the attacks you mentioned can just be dodged or shielded. Fair, Dair, Up-tilt, whatever. They can all be seen from a mile away. Ike will never be able to Spam Fair and beat Ganondorf. It's already too slow to begin with. Ganondorf has a majority of quick executing attacks.

1. Jab

2. Ftilt

3. Down tilt

4. Uair

5. nair

6. Bair

All of Ganondorf's smashes are faster than Ike's.

Heck, the only Ganondorf doesn't completely wreck Ike, is the fact that Ike's ability to space himself really helps. Once Ganondorf gets in, it's over.

EDIT-****, I keep getting verticle and horizontal screwed up on Ike's recovery.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Dyne how do you win as a Ganondorf/Sonic main? You must be some kind of prodigy.

Its really annoying how people automatically assume that Sonic and Ganondorf are automatically bad characters.
Learn how to play as them before speaking.

Sonic for example can combo, can approach, has range, can gimp, has a good grab game, good aerial game.
Sub par ground game.
Multiple physics abusing moves.
3 moves with invincibility/massive high priority.

Ganondorf I don't use much I'll wait for someone who is good with him to answer.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Actually I can play Ganondorf and Sonic fairly well. I think they're bad characters in relation to the rest of the cast, as does most of the world.

Gleam, it's obvious you've never fought a good Ike if you think Ganondorf beats him.

 

[Gleam]

Also to add, and going by the "True combo" list.

Ike has no inescapable combos, and only two DI combos.

Ganondorf one or two inescapable combos, and three DI combos.

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

I think Sonic has a strong disadvantage against Luigi(overwhelming priority) and Metaknight(near impossible to approach) as well.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

How does Pit not have a large adv. over Bowser?

-Ter

 

[ShadowLink84]

Donkey kong is a disadvantage for Sonic?
Ice climber he is at a disadvantage as well?
hmm I could see it but not a great disadvantage.

Why is he disadvantaged against Lucas?
I see it as a neutral matchup because Sonic can space better than Lucas can, and spacing is incredibly important for Lucas' game.

Disadvantage against Pikachu, Pit,and Samus.
Pikachu? I cannot see as to how Sonic has a disadvantage .
Aerially Sonic does well against Pikachu and while he can't gimp him can rack up enough damage to get a kill.
thunder is not a great move. I fail to see why people keep leaning on it. It is only effective at higher percentages and requires a narrow setup to be used. Even then the airdodge in this game is quite good and allows it to be avoided well.
not to mention that you cannot Fsmash pikachu out of it with Sonic.

D smash I can see as an issue but even then Sonic isn't necessarily going to run into it or not expect it

Pit is not a disadvantage either. His projectile game is completely shut down by Sonic. He cans pace better than pit and get up close very quickly. His dash and shield grab is good for getting up close to Pit.
Yes pit is good aerially but if Pit is above Sonic he will be unable to fight against Sonic since Sonic's Uair outranges that of Pit's Dair.
There is also Sonic's DAC allowing him another option of getting close to Pit more safely.

Why would he be at a disadvantage against Samus?
I am quite sure he counters everything Samus has to offer ?d yet he is at a disadvantage. Why.

I don't believe that Zelda is a disadvantage for Sonic either since Zelda's aerials are bad compared to Sonic's.
I am leaning towards the neutral end since her camp game is no threat for Sonic. Ground wise up close I think she trounces him but once he gets her in the air he can kill her more easily.

 

[Gleam]

Actually I can play Ganondorf and Sonic fairly well. I think they're bad characters in relation to the rest of the cast, as does most of the world.

Gleam, it's obvious you've never fought a good Ike if you think Ganondorf beats him.

"VesatileBJN, it's obviously you've never fought a good Ganondorf if you think Ike beats him."

Saying something like that isn't going to do crap. I could say "You just need to use Ganondorf better." What's that going to prove, jack. If you think Ike beats Ganondorf, then provide it with facts instead of just saying Ike>Ganondorf.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Empy did it for me though.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Yes. Ganon's moves come out faster than Ike's.

Bair and Jab are faster than anything Ganondorf can do.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Bair and Jab are faster than anything Ganondorf can do.

WOMG 2 moves!?

No wait

Ganon's Jab is as fast as Ike's Jab. -1 fast move

Now compare all of Ike's moveset to Ganon's moveset.

Ganon is faster than Ike.
What Ike has to do is space something I think Ike does well against close range characters.
His range also can make it difficult for Ganondorf to approach.


I would normally say Ike since I also use Ike but I never have played a good Ganondorf somewhere other than wifi which provides little information.

I highly doubt you use Sonic well if you think he is a bad character.
Ask any of the Sonic mains including myself.
The only bad thing Sonic has is his lack of priority.

Range is no issue.
Killing is no issue.
Approaching and combo is definitely not an issue.
Its priority that hurts Sonic.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I used to main sonic... I still use him... but he IS low tier

 

[Mr. Escalator]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170702
Alright, it's been roughly a day since I brought it up, and I'm requesting that the Ness v. Olimar matchup should be changed from Ness being at a large disadvantage against Olimar to Ness having a slight advantage.

The above thread is an ongoing discussion about the matchup that's taking place in the Olimar subforum. At this point in time, I've made some good points which have yet to been debated, and I feel strongly as ever for this matchup. I haven't been dissuaded.

So it'd be nice if you updated this soon, Ivaneva. You might want to keep an eye on the thread in case someone makes some good points, but right now it looks like Ness has a small advantage.

Thanks.