Brawl+ Beta Build (GSH1) Discussion

[GHNeko]

Which is why you learn like. 3. Different. Characters. Each of them covering weaknesses on another character you play.

You will NOT get by with 1 character in this game.

 

[jalued]

Opinion on lower shieldstun for smashes:

for smashes i feel it a nice idea that the shieldstun is lower than for weaker attacks as it allows for strategic shield prssure and punishes bad spaceing...

however...

i think that universally the shieldstun is too low, its still a valid strategy to shield grab most approaches. Shield grabbing imo should be a occasional defnsive tactic, rather than a easymode tactic

 

[Revven]

Is easy mode the new phrase people are using now as a reason? Because it's a terrible one in MANY cases, especially when you're talking about shield grabbing... it just makes me facepalm just as much as if you threw the word 'depth' around whenever you'd talk about mechanics or certain characters.

Give. A. Better. Reason.

 

[Dan_X]

Is easy mode the new phrase people are using now as a reason? Because it's a terrible one in MANY cases, especially when you're talking about shield grabbing... it just makes me facepalm just as much as if you threw the word 'depth' around whenever you'd talk about mechanics or certain characters.

Give. A. Better. Reason.

Yeah get it right people, the new phrase (er.. word) is 'windboxes.' No but seriously Falco400, I agree full-heartedly. I can't stand people attaching the phrase 'easy mode' to their every complaint. Said phrase in no way validates their claims. It's annoying, overused, and downright nonsensical.

@jalued: can you please edit your 'location' in yor profile information to be shorter (much shorter). It distorts the page whenever I come accross one you've posted in. This may not happen on the computer, but my computer is dead and I'm forced to use my iTouch. Again, it makes it really hard to read the page... I'd really appreciate it! Thanks!

 

[JCaesar]

for smashes i feel it a nice idea that the shieldstun is lower than for weaker attacks as it allows for strategic shield prssure and punishes bad spaceing...

Why should the same not apply for aerials and other moves? If you misspace or use them carelessly, you should be punished. There are still plenty of ways to safely apply shield pressure.

btw you spelled "optimism" wrong in your location

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

A while back, someone said that we should nerf the good characters less and instead buff the bad characters and I agree with this. In Alondite's example of Marth V Mario, I have some success with jumping fireballs, however I do see that Marth is a tough matchup for him. A possible fix to this, make his fireball speed or fire speed faster. Will this unbalance him for other matchups? We will see but its a possible fix.

There will never be a fighting game in which every character is perfectly balanced V every character. There will always be good and bad matchups. The goal of game balance should be to make every character's balance intransitive i.e. everyone is good against about the same amount of characters they are bad against and to the same degree for every character.

I think something we have to keep in mind is character strengths are strengths for a reason. Marth's strength is that he is a fast character with a mid range disjointed hitbox. Originally, Sakurai wanted to balance this by giving him no projectile, a decently light weight, and an extremely predictable short distance recovery. He failed, but we can succeed, however nerfing marth's range, which is what defines him as a character, is not a success but a failure. We should find some other way to balance characters without changing their basic function or concept. See Squirtle argument ^_^

 

[Dan_X]

A while back, someone said that we should nerf the good characters less and instead buff the bad characters and I agree with this. In Alondite's example of Marth V Mario, I have some success with jumping fireballs, however I do see that Marth is a tough matchup for him. A possible fix to this, make his fireball speed or fire speed faster. Will this unbalance him for other matchups? We will see but its a possible fix.

There will never be a fighting game in which every character is perfectly balanced V every character. There will always be good and bad matchups. The goal of game balance should be to make every character's balance intransitive i.e. everyone is good against about the same amount of characters they are bad against and to the same degree for every character.

I think something we have to keep in mind is character strengths are strengths for a reason. Marth's strength is that he is a fast character with a mid range disjointed hitbox. Originally, Sakurai wanted to balance this by giving him no projectile, a decently light weight, and an extremely predictable short distance recovery. He failed, but we can succeed, however nerfing marth's range, which is what defines him as a character, is not a success but a failure. We should find some other way to balance characters without changing their basic function or concept. See Squirtle argument ^_^

This, I couldn't have said it better myself. Let's try to refrain from nerfing top characters, we could just work on what other characters are lacking in.

 

[proteininja]

A template for the perfect post:

"(Insert your main here) is in some serious trouble. He needs way more depth. I think you guys should(Insert desired buff here). Also, (Insert character your main has a bad match up against here) is way too easy mode. My opponent doesn't even need to try that hard to beat me. You guys need to (Insert desired nerf here). I am really disappointed in the WBR right now. Don't pretend you guys have lives. I know all you do is read my posts, so get to work on making (Insert your main here) an actual contender."

If you want to be really cool. Make some joke about windboxes here or Ness mains being needy.

Copy and paste for instant success.

 

[proteininja]

BTW guys I have been having alot of trouble with the Bowser vs falcon matchup. Bowser just doesnt have any safe approaches. I think you should just make his neutral air back to 2x size. Falcon has way too many safe aproaches i think he needs his neutral air nerfed. GET TO WORK SLAVES.

LOL windboxes

 

[cobaltblue]

Sonic is in some serious trouble. He needs way more depth. I think you guys should insert visible disjointed nair. Also, game and watch is way too easy mode. My opponent doesn't even need to try that hard to beat me. You guys need to nerf bair. I am really disappointed in the WBR right now. Don't pretend you guys have lives. I know all you do is read my posts, so get to work on making sonic an actual contender.

Hey! It is easy!

 

[Dan_X]

Perhaps we should make Bowser's Bair 10x larger and give it zero ALR? At least that way he'll be able to hit characters without them having any opportunity to approach him.

 

[Rudra]

A template for the perfect post:
Copy and paste for instant success.

This is brilliant. That is all.

 

[proteininja]

Perhaps we should make Bowser's Bair 10x larger and give it zero ALR? At least that way he'll be able to hit characters without them having any opportunity to approach him.

This is a nice start Orca, but I don't really think this completely addresses the issue of future windbox buffs as most character will simply be able to blow bowser offstage while he is using his neutral air. I believe the proper course of action is to make bowser windbox proof as his fat *** will most likely make him invulnerable to all major wind currents including El nino and hurricane Katrina. We should strive to make characters natural, and I think that naturally bowser should just kick everyone else's ***. It is uncharacteristic of him to lose.

On that note Mario's back throw should KO him instantly, and princess Peach should not be able to deal any damage or KB to him. No one cares about Luigi. Delete him from the game and replace him with Geno.

10ROCKETPUNCHES

 

[jalued]

im just saying about shield grabbing (my better reason):

if you can potentially shield grab most badly approached attacks, then it makes the game more focused on defensive and campy tactics, rather than aggressive and imo interesting gameplay. Yes ofc you can say: approach better, space better etc, but in reality it just makes the gameplay slower.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

A template for the perfect post:

"(Insert your main here) is in some serious trouble. He needs way more depth. I think you guys should(Insert desired buff here). Also, (Insert character your main has a bad match up against here) is way too easy mode. My opponent doesn't even need to try that hard to beat me. You guys need to (Insert desired nerf here). I am really disappointed in the WBR right now. Don't pretend you guys have lives. I know all you do is read my posts, so get to work on making (Insert your main here) an actual contender."

If you want to be really cool. Make some joke about windboxes here or Ness mains being needy.

Copy and paste for instant success.

This is a sad sign of things to come....

 

[Valuno]

I think the amount of shield stun right now is fine. In RC1, there was a lot of ridiculous frame advantage when you hit a shield with certain moves. Now, people are still pressured, but can escape. If you get shieldgrabbed, you were probably using the wrong aerial, or hit their shield right next to them. If you hit their shield that close to them, you deserve to be grabbed. You can space well even while playing aggressively.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

My opinion on shield grabbing: If sheildstun is too high to make shield grabbing a viable tactic, why allow people to shield grab in the first place.

Shield grabbing punishes sloppy approaches. It shouldn't be invincible but it should be viable. Right now, I feel as if I don't shield grab as much as I used to because of the increased shield stun. Sometimes it is simply better to drop shield and attack. I honestly think if we increase shield stun any further we are making mega pressure too much of a viable tactic. You should be punished for being recklessly offensive as much as you are punnished for being recklessly defensive and if shield stun is too high, you can easily pressure someone into a shield break, or even worse end up with guaranteed hit-grab combos (which is why the ALR was recently increased to 7 as a minimum).

In short if you want to solve the problem of a defensive game by increasing shield stun, well, increased shield stun means we need to increase ALR, increased ALR means the game gets slower, slower game means the game becomes more defensive, more defensive game means you need to increase shield stun again ... its a vicious cycle.

Instead we should be looking for Shield Grabbing to be a viable tactic about 50$ of the time, and I think that is where we are.

(P.S. I know I'm new here, or at least effectivley new, I've been a member since march 2008, so I hope my input hasn't been too annoying. I'm not a coder, but I have worked on game design teams before so I hope I can at least give input that helps in a constructive manner).

 

[GHNeko]

im just saying about shield grabbing (my better reason):

if you can potentially shield grab most badly approached attacks, then it makes the game more focused on defensive and campy tactics, rather than aggressive and imo interesting gameplay. Yes ofc you can say: approach better, space better etc, but in reality it just makes the gameplay slower.

....w-what...

...i...i think i need to lay down....

You're basically saying that people should not be punished for bad spacing and properly spacing and approaches make the game SLOWER? What? It does no such thing at all. Properly spacing you moves and approaches are what allow you to get kills and gimps early than just tossing stuff out and wacking them like you're swinging a stick.

come on now. wtf.

 

[Alphatron]

Agreed with Neko. Back in vbrawl, spacing attacks on shield properly led to you getting one or two attacks in, and then retreating.

But if you're retreating while putting pressure on your opponents shield with the right attacks now, then you're doing it wrong. So long as it isn't ridiculously easy to shieldgrab characters like Ganon, then it doesn't seem that bad.

There is Olimar however, whom everyone forgets.

 

[jalued]

Agreed with Neko. Back in vbrawl, spacing attacks on shield properly led to you getting one or two attacks in, and then retreating.

But if you're retreating while putting pressure on your opponents shield with the right attacks now, then you're doing it wrong. So long as it isn't ridiculously easy to shieldgrab characters like Ganon, then it doesn't seem that bad.

There is Olimar however, whom everyone forgets.

does brawl shield come out faster than melee shields? casue it seems to, and maybe that is the problem...not the shield stun

 

[Veril]

Shield pressure is very effective in B+ if you space well and land the aerial at exactly the right time. While the ALR changes removed a lot of shield combos, the shield-camp strategy is still much weaker than in vBrawl.

Perfectly land canceling aerials makes a lot of them extremely difficult or even impossible to punish. If you manage to perfectly land cancel after attacking someone's shield, good for you. I mean, near frame perfect execution of anything should be rewarded imo.

 

[leafgreen386]

I'll respond to other posts later when I have the time, but for now...

@jalued: Did you think that 5.0 had enough shieldstun? It was only too low when you started playing on cape's set, right?

 

[jalued]

I'll respond to other posts later when I have the time, but for now...

@jalued: Did you think that 5.0 had enough shieldstun? It was only too low when you started playing on cape's set, right?

thought 5.0 was better but still a little bit low. Capes set was far too low for me imo

 

[Thunderhorse+]

thought 5.0 was better but still a little bit low. Capes set was far too low for me imo

I think you'll be singing a different tune once Wario auto-shieldbreak combos you with fsmash.

And Diddy's nanners with even more shieldstun than 5.0...*shudders*

 

[MK26]

instead of the 3-line replay code, why not just add that stage texture that says 'Save Replay' thats floating around here somewhere? Or, y'know, someone can just make one...

 

[jalued]

I think you'll be singing a different tune once Wario auto-shieldbreak combos you with fsmash.

And Diddy's nanners with even more shieldstun than 5.0...*shudders*

yeah but cant u just tone down moves like that? everyone agrees the nanas are too good anyway lol

 

[Thunderhorse+]

yeah but cant u just tone down moves like that? everyone agrees the nanas are too good anyway lol

IIRC (and someone correct me if I'm wrong), shieldstun is directly proportional to the damage of the attack. To 'fix' a move like Wario's fsmash without altering shieldstun, you would have to tone down its damage to something around 9ish%?

It might even be more because we're taking into account a hypothetical shieldstun value higher than 5.0's. and Wario's fsmash doing around 7% damage just to keep it from being absurd on shields is silly.

 

[matt4300]

IIRC (and someone correct me if I'm wrong), shieldstun is directly proportional to the damage of the attack. To 'fix' a move like Wario's fsmash without altering shieldstun, you would have to tone down its damage to something around 9ish%?

It might even be more because we're taking into account a hypothetical shieldstun value higher than 5.0's. and Wario's fsmash doing around 7% damage just to keep it from being absurd on shields is silly.

Werent diddys nanners already toned down in damage? They do 4% Vbrawl... theres no reason they should do that much damage. 1 or 2 % would fit much better.

 

[The Cape]

The sheild stun was given a value where the weaker attacks are slightly better on sheild, medium about the same, and the strong attacks have a bit less power. This makes moves (like TH's example) Wario's F smash stun a bit less on sheild and are thrown out less haphazardly and require good spacing in all respects which is something that should have been preserved from regular Brawl instead of the RC1 style of throwing out moves on sheild that were safe no matter what (Falcon nair where he shoves his **** as far into your face as he can).

The GW throws that were added in were done so because it gives GW a reason to grab as he can mindgame his opponent and get a decent followup with good spacing and reading of DI. The KO throw gives him one more viable option as he has no KO move setups (as Count Kaiser said) while most other characters have plenty of moves that KO well. I personally find myself trying to tech chase an F smash or just fairing them until they die around 170 or so. This just adds one more move to his repitoire that assists him in his one weak area: Actually landing a kill move on the opponent. While I do not know the exact percents of the KO throw I am pretty sure its fairly weak with good DI.

As for the proposed U smash nerf for Zelda and jab nerf for Ganon:
U smash with Zelda probably will not happen even with its insane range above her. Nothing short of Ike's dair can pierce that move from above and since its inescapable and you cant AD past it you will get hit by it ALOT once you are above Zelda. Plain and simple, a good Zelda will chase you and keep you in up smashes as long as possible. If you don't believe me, go play Umbreon Mow.

Ganon jab:
Good GTFO move, winds down way too fast. If you jab someone's sheild, you just jab again and again to push them away and keep yourself safe. Very silly for its speed and power. A bit more winddown on the move, or even the ability to jab > anything but jab at the same speed would be a good change. I asked Shell about it and he is programming up a possibility. Ganon's jab fits into the category of "Covers too many bases": It comes out fast, KOs (albeit high percents), winds down fast, does decent damage, does sheild pressure, etc. Being a versitile move is fine, but being nearly safe in all situations and being an offensive wall in front of him is just plain silly. Its silly for the same reason that machine gun jabs with Snake were silly.

Anything I missed since I am now home from my all night train ride?

 

[leafgreen386]

Individual moves can have their shieldstun tweaked as need be.

Although I'm of the opinion that the shieldstun in cape's set still needs to be toned down from where it is, actually. By about a frame or so on everything.

edit: This was meant to be a response to before cape's post. I'll respond to that later when I have the time to write up a long post.

 

[The Cape]

No need to write a long post, was just trying to catch up on the pages of stuff I missed while on the train. You dont have to refute every point I make Leaf.

 

[Elefterios]

I don't know if it's been posted, but ganon is unable to grab the ledge with his side B on the SSE forest stage.

 

[CountKaiser]

Really? He doesn't grab it once the Side B is over?

 

[leafgreen386]

He can grab it if you recover high. If you go just ever so slightly below the ledge (where it would normally auto-snap) you'll actually end up missing the ledge entirely. This got me when I was playing several times against DS. It's very frustrating having what used to be the ideal recovery location become the absolute worst thing you could do when recovering.

Oh, and pit's upB is glitched. I know you're supposed to be able to upB again when you're hit out of it. However, if you use up the meter and go into special fall, when you're hit again you actually get your full upB back. Could we please not reward characters for messing up their recovery?

I'll respond to the ganon jab stuff later.

 

[The Cape]

The Pit upB is not "glitched". That part is actually known and it does not reward the character for messing up their recovery as it leaves them completely vulnerable. Hit him with a charged smash if he goes into special fall or something of that nature as he is a wide open target in that instance.

 

[KOkingpin]

I just wanna say that Squirtle's Fair is absolutely horrible. It does look funny and helps with recovery a bit. But its slower than molasses and has about the same kb (if not exactly the same) and has almost no shieldstun what so ever. Squirtle is a very strong character and I understand this but nerfing both of his killing aerials is a bit much. Up air was a good nerf cause it was killing way to early on any stage with platforms and it still can do some of the same stuff it did before just a little later in the percentages.

....w-what...

...i...i think i need to lay down....

You're basically saying that people should not be punished for bad spacing and properly spacing and approaches make the game SLOWER? What? It does no such thing at all. Properly spacing you moves and approaches are what allow you to get kills and gimps early than just tossing stuff out and wacking them like you're swinging a stick.

come on now. wtf.

I will say some moves should not be safe on shield and should be punishable when incorrectly spaced and some moves should be shield pressuring moves. All moves should not be unpunishable on shield and I think that Capes set has done a pretty good job so far from what i can tell.

 

[The Cape]

This fair, as was not well received, may be replaced with another in the near future that is in the works. Going to try adding more winddown to the end of the move so that it is more of a commitment move in the air, but still comes out quickly.

 

[KOkingpin]

This fair, as was not well received, may be replaced with another in the near future that is in the works. Going to try adding more winddown to the end of the move so that it is more of a commitment move in the air, but still comes out quickly.

thats sounds like a GREAT idea. I was talking to the Local Squirtle players about this and they thought it was a much better idea.

 

[FrozenHobo]

out of curiosity, through what procedure will you be accessing MK 1-2 from the SSS? a redirect code like WWR, or will simply selecting MK automatically link you to 1-2?

 

[Dan_X]

Pit's up B is fine. He is still very easily killed off (gimped), though now he has an obvious fighting chance from before when he was helpless after a hit. His up+b has no hitbox, besides a windbox (right?). He has to rely on good spacing and using his aerials to protect himself out of his flight. In addition, when falling vertically downward and using up+b it takes a good deal of he meter to rise. You really don't have much room to screw around, you're not that safe. It takes a long time for him to reerse his downward momentum.

The fact that he can cancel his wings attack, and initiate his wings again adds a ton to his game. Before this was never possible. Now he is more versitile, and can execute more skillful techniques, or combos. He's less predictable.

As for Squirtle's fair, I agree with the proposed change. I'd like to see the same quick start up, with more window. At least it would fit squirtle's archtype and stay true to his gameplay.



Has ffdt been taken out yet?