Ban brinstar and rainbow cruise

[Masmasher@]

man whhaaattt

 

[MarsFool!]

stages are implemented to benefit more characters not inhibit them. Counterpicks are being used in an inappropriate matter if you're using aspects of the stage that defer normal play. Also consider the fact that you are helping jigglypuff with this stage as well. And from what I understand she's top tier. Basically you're saying spacies need a stage nerf but again its the lava and not the shape of the stage that causes the problem. I think that its silly that something that can cost you entire stocks off of a grab with no skill involved.

 

[Rykard]

it seems like this entire thread has focused around brinstar with almost no mention really of rainbow cruise. I was just wondering what people thought about that stage because from the way it looks, people do not really seem to have a problem with it if all the attention being on brinstar. Personally i am for both to stay as counterpicks but it makes no sense to only argue 1 when there are 2 that were brought up by hax

 

[t3h Icy]

I like Wobbles.

 

[Wobbles]

Okay, quoting time, since you're so obsessed with it.

wobbles

everything about your post fails

Glad to see your English teacher taught you to start posts with a thesis statement.

just to sum a couple things up (i'm not willing to quote/write proper refutations because you don't feel like showing the respect to do the same):

*I have never ever said different = bad. if different = bad, then every stage in the game is bad. for the last time, I said that broken = bad. this point alone wipes out half of your post, which was clearly designed to counter the logic you've put in my mouth

Oh boy.

For starters, I agreed with you that broken is bad. MY CLAIM IS THAT BRINSTAR IS NOT BROKEN, BUT DIFFERENT, AND REQUIRES YOU TO LEARN NEW SPECIFIC THINGS ABOUT THE LEVEL IN ORDER TO PLAY ON IT EFFECTIVELY. The corollary to that is that other levels have peculiar characteristics that appear "stupid" or "gay" or even "broken" until you learn to deal with them.

The point of this? To say that maybe given appropriate attention and devotion, Brinstar would not appear to be such a broken level after all. That was the argument. Maybe, given time and enough study, improvement, we would hit the peak of its metagame and it WOULD turn out to be banworthy. Most of the reasons people fail on the level, however, are clearly avoidable.

Suggestions on how you, the player, can keep Brinstar from screwing you over.

1) Watch the lava. Don't try and blindly combo even while the level is changing.
2) Accounting for the membranes when attacking near the edge.
3) Aiming for stage control when the lava is going to leave you with only one platform; that is, shifting your focus of the match from "HIT THE OTHER GUY" to stage control.

I've also tried saying "hey maybe the stage isn't broken, we're just not adapting fully to the currently prevailing strategies on it."

Your answer? "NOPE, BROKEN, CAN'T DO ****." Derp.

*Randall is hardly a significant stage hazard. during the rare occurrences where he actually influences a match, he is helping some of the worse characters recover (ganon, falcon) because fox/falco can't up-b onto randall for sh*t, and jigglypuff doesn't need his help recovering. if anything, these influences make for closer matchups between characters which is healthy for the game. ironic that you'd try to compare Randall to Brinstar's lava, which is about 30 times wider and 20 times taller than him. AND it damages you. great comparison!

Randall never does anything except make you have to b-air a second time. Except when he saves you at apparently random times and that's good.

Oh, and sometimes his: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAq8l3MCIF4&feature=player_embedded

And this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xKQL6Xgths#t=0m46s

Or this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LGIyOJRP7E#t=2m33s

Maybe this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA0hRszMlF8#t=2m22s

This? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLcYHYTr-Vk#t=0m12s

Lol this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejUUP5BZT70

POINT: RANDALL INFLUENCES MATCHES. BEING AWARE OF HIS PRESENCE IS A NECESSITY IF YOU DON'T WANT SO-CALLED *RANDOM* **** TO HAPPEN TO YOU. How can you avoid Randall ****ing you over? Check the timer frequently during dead moments in the match to know if he's going to show up somewhere soon.

*LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL at the list of punishes

Ah, the time-honered argumentation classic, the loooooooooooooooool maneuver. I expect to see you at debate nationals in the near future.

*Brinstar cost you the match vs Rayku twice in one stock; you could not have done anything about either of these occurrences. why are you still trying to debate your match vs Rayku?

Why are you? I already pointed out things I could have done differently based on knowledge that I should have been using. I REPEAT, I COULD HAVE ACTED COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY, BASED ON INFORMATION I HAD COMPLETE ACCESS TO DURING THE MATCH. Why are you claiming that I *had* to go for a d-smash when a grab would clearly have killed him? Why are you saying that, even though the lava was going to come up--and you could see it rising five seconds prior--there was nothing I could do to avoid it? Sure, the lava cost me the match in the same way that ignoring a vital property of any other level can cost you a match. What are you trying to say? That ignoring parts of the level based on how OTHER stages work is okay? I thought different did not = bad?

my posts aren't gonna be any more detailed than this from now on, since you haven't shown the respect to quote my arguments and directly refute them instead of repeating the same general statements. have you ever considered that the reason I'm dismissing your logic is because i've disproved it in my previous posts? maybe if you'd been quoting them this whole time, you would have realized this.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL your conclusion.

Spoiler

Don't hate, I learned from the best.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

My favorite part about wobbles' posts are his caplocks insta-cool.

Spoiler

you arguments should make sense without you having to shout them at your audience

edit- wobbles finally trolled hax into doing a disrespectful post, then did a "proper" followup of the intentionally stupid post in order to "gain ground" in the argument.

edit2- this should get another read:

the only difference between views in this issue is fundamentals of balance. Neither side can be proven right. Either you think brinstar and RC are less fair than neutrals or you don't think we can judge stages objectively (well there is also the possibility that you think brinstar and RC are more fair than neutrals, but i doubt anyone is saying that). The former puts you on hax's side, while the latter puts you on wobbles' side.

wobbles, do you still think we should unban old stages like corneria, green greens, pokefloats, mute city, and onett as well?

 

[Wobbles]

My favorite part about wobbles' posts are his caplocks insta-cool.

Please, I have never been cool.

And I wasn't doing it at the start because I gave people the benefit of the doubt in assuming they would properly read and understand the points I was making.

Also, I used italics AND caps in one sentence.

^^hey look more caps^^^

edit- wobbles finally trolled hax into doing a disrespectful post, then did a "proper" followup of the intentionally stupid post in order to "gain ground" in the argument.

I guess I did do that. Now I feel bad.

...

Hah! Feel better.

*

As for the other stages:

Corneria: Not especially. It's unbelievably camping-centric and having control of the fin appears to be 90% of the match. At least 3 more percent is arwing ****ery.

Green Greens: When moving across almost any part of the level gives you the opportunity to be arbitrarily detonated, we can safely say that it's moved into the realm of "bad-random."

Pokefloats: I'm iffy. It *seems* that for many portions of the match being the faster character means you decide if any fighting whatsoever will occur. If this really isn't the case, and you can use intelligent positional pressure to force bad decisions from the other guy, then it would be a very interesting level indeed. It's also one of the few truly non-random levels in the game--right up there with FD, Battlefield, Rainbow Cruise and--lol--the two banned Yoshi stages.

Onett: Even worse than Corneria, camping wise. You even have the benefit of platforms giving you overhead cover while you hog the left side. Which is a shame, because some of the platform fighting is kind of interesting. Feels incredibly degenerate and massively favors 1% leads.*

Mute: Really iffy on this one too. Lack of edges takes a pretty hefty chunk of strategy away from edge-guards and gives HUGE power to whoever happens to be on the stage at the time. Since edge-guarding is such an interesting and important part of the game I don't think I like it being removed (this is actually a point against Pokefloats for me, but having multiple options for regaining stage control makes up for it a little). Personally I like playing ICs here because half the time the level is FD, except that if Nana gets knocked off the floor saves her. Big sides and a high ceiling also compensate a bit for her lack of DI. Unfortunately, none of that means **** regarding a competitive metagame for the poor fools who play one of the other 25 characters.

*This is actually a pretty good rule of thumb: if having a lead by even 1% suddenly gives you access to a massive advantage, odds are the stage favors defensive camping too powerfully.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

^ my favorite wobbles post in this thread. Very naturally spoken, no full sentence caps, no negative tone.

I like the insight into your beliefs of stages. My only issue is that none of those stages have actually broken strategies, but rather strategies that make certain characters stronger (by varying amounts). This sort of puts you in a double standard situation in the argument, which i think is kind of the core of some of hax's points.

Going on about the stages though, I dont think onett is really that camping centered. Edge camping the left seems good on paper, but most characters can't drop from the edge and regrab without touching the ground or sticking their head above the stage. If they camp on the ground, incoming cars allow the opponent time to approach (whether the person on the left shields, jump, rolls, ect). Because of the platforms, there are multiple ways out of a trap with the wall so you can't be indefinitely walled (like on peach's castle).

 

[Niko45]

pssh forget hax and wobbles, Sveet is ****** this thread

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

lol i think thats a bit of an exaggeration niko, even though it made my day

 

[Wobbles]

Well it's been discussed and mentioned before that degeneracy and bad-random as reasons for banning stages.

Degeneracy: does the majority of the stage get ignored in favor of who can execute nothing but X strategy better, even if technically the strategy is balanced among two dozen characters? I'd argue in Onett's case that this does happen, where X strategy is "camp the side that better suits your character once you have a lead." Why actually fight when a percentage lead gives you such a huge advantage by allowing you to threaten with the clock? This also happens on Corneria: get lead, start camping fin. If your character has an up+b suited to it, then invincibility ***** as best you can.

Good-random: a controlled risk, or a shared random risk factor with opportunities for strategic battle based around it. Bad-random: suddenly and without warning influencing the match in favor of one character, even if it's technically "balanced" in that it can happen to either player.

Good-random means that something appears or happens and both players can begin fighting for control of it, or choose NOT to get control of it if that means sacrificing something else. Bad-random means "any time you do a smash attack you run the risk of an exploding capsule spawning and murdering you." Green-Greens' apples could be kind of okay under the right circumstances (you get plenty of warning they're coming and they would offer a reason NOT to camp the sides), but then you have the exploding ones that make them really drastic, and they also sometimes hit you when they fall. Arwings are bad-random, if only because they can shoot you from off-screen and there's no real way to tell when they want to fire. You can say "hey I'm just gonna stay away from the Arwing," but that only really applies when you can see the darn things.

Wrong game, but obligatory nonetheless: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBL5GqXbmuU

 

[SOLAR]

Without Brinstar, Peach and puff no longer have two counterpick stages, the way fox has yoshi's story and pokemon stadium.

Personally, I think too many stages have been banned. Pretty soon, all we will be seeing is fox dittos on FD.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

You guys are falling off of the slippery slope.

Soon, you guys will have a stage list like Japan's, only BF and FD.

I don't think that the match with PS at KJ64 justifies banning the stage.

Brawl players didn't ban Smashville or Rainbow Cruise after M2K timed out Gnes AND Brood via scrooging....

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

theres lots of more matchups then peach vs ganon that has garaunteed timeouts on kj64......

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

There are also other stages that MK can time out characters on, but no stages were banned because of it.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

and thats why brawl sucks and why smart people like me dont play it

 

[MarsFool!]

Who likes random **** happening during a match? Phantom hits, shy guys, the racist cloud. I vote there be one tournament with all the interference off and just see what happens.

@post below me, he has a pattern and shows up at the same times, but who times the cloud and on top of that what fight is the same every time the cloud is out?

Everyone knows that RC isnt a serious counterpick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gim1V3Qvofw

lolololol @ first match.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Randall is the anti-hero of Smash.
He does his own thing.

He also follows a pattern like many of the stage hazards in this game.

 

[Ripple]

I like how wobbles receives praise for going against hax and I get "lol, you're dumb and your argument doesn't count because I've never seen you play"

****'s wack yo.

peace out. I'm done lurking

 

[Frame Perfect]

isn't it time you change your location ripple!?... to simply ' In stage threads'

 

[Ripple]

isn't it time you change your location ripple!?... to simply ' In stage threads'

why? do you find it offensive? I debate stages in brawl, not just melee and trust me there are more idiots there than here.

 

[Frame Perfect]

no, just ironic

so you prey on the weak?

 

[Ripple]

no, just ironic

how so? you realize if you go back to the very beginning of this thread and keep reading, you'll see that I made the exact same arguments that wobbles is making now. the only difference is that sveet felt that since he has never seen me do well at a tournament that my opinion didn't matter. people then just ignored my posts/misinterpreted them or just nitpicked

 

[Smasher89]

Arwing is not that random, it's still really controllable(to the dehree you can make it hit an opponent once or twice, and catch them on the way up(includes bad play though) for the kill. I haven't tested but I think theres some kind of priority(guess is position) on who they aim on from the background.

 

[P.C. Jona]

who the hell cares

dude plays dk and brawl

 

[Deathknight]

Neutrals can be just as broken as any stage previous cp stage for certain characters. The rules are fine the way they are, leave them alone.

 

[Doser]

Neutrals can be just as broken as any stage previous cp stage for certain characters. The rules are fine the way they are, leave them alone.

Great information to back up your claims brah, good thing you got here just in time.

 

[Deathknight]

... go to hell. I really need to write an essay to back up what I think? Threads like this are losing arguments no matter which side you're on. I put in my point of view and left it. Ignore my post if you don't agree, don't troll.

 

[Doser]

Neutrals can be just as broken as any stage previous cp stage for certain characters. The rules are fine the way they are, leave them alone.

Well I guess you don't need to back up your opinion, but you should if you want anyone to care what you think. But if you don't care what people think, why are you posting on a discussion forum? That kind of defeats the purpose.

Your two claims are sweeping, and most certainly not common sentiment, you really shouldn't expect that you can just state something and then say "lol my opinion rofl" without people thinking that you're not taking part in the discussion.

Don't act like you're 12.

 

[Deathknight]

Well, it doesn't matter if I don't care what people think. It's what the rule set turns out to be that affects me directly. Anyway, fine, a few examples. FD I think is probably the least neutral of the neutral stages. Some chain grabs ex Peach or Marth on Fox/Falco can go 0 to death with no hope of escape other than human error. Falcon has huge space and no interference of platforms to do long broken combos. Then Yoshi's, a stage ideal for Marth. Incredibly easy to combo on any platform with up tilts or up airs or low percentage kills with tippers on the lower platforms. I actually do agree about Rainbow Cruise though. I never understood why that stage was chosen to stay out of the previous CP stage list. I mean seriously, right before the reset, if you're in a bad situation, you're screwed and the ceiling drops and you die. Plus the constant moving and disappearing scenery... wtf. How did this stage win over Corneria? Corneria the main problems are people camping the lower wing and the low ceiling. I fail to understand how this is worse.

 

[Hax]

Wobbles if i didn't make it obvious enough by stating that i purposefully made a lame post (which took me 2 minutes as opposed to 30 minutes): you trolled me to that point. your arguments are so ridden with double standards that i don't even know if you're being serious anymore. your attempts to justify Brinstar rely on you admitting that it is broken, and then comparing its brokenness to other stages that you suggest are also broken, yet neutral. right off the bat, you began by admitting that Brinstar is broken; not exactly the best gameplan for an argument. as for your attempt to relate its brokenness to other stages, out of all the Randall links you posted, 3-4 of them were legit (not counting the Randall "combo video," which was a compilation of people using techniques that would never be used in tourney that happened to be interrupted often by Randall.) I ask you, out of how many YS clips do you think Randall interferes? i'd say 10%; this is a bit weak when compared to Brinstar's lava which skews 100% of its matches. to use a derogatory statement you should be all too familiar with: glad your debate coach taught you how to weigh arguments.

no, you could not have done anything to prevent Brinstar from costing you the match; ESPECIALLY when it stopped your grab infinite. at the moment I am unaware of an IC's aerial combo that 0 to death's the opponent just as their grab infinite does; if you could teach me one then I will concede that the lava did not affect the outcome of the match. as for the janky stage shape costing you the match, what could you have done? how could you have grabbed when the walls clearly prevented you from walking/running any further? even if you could have, you were lone Popo; you needed a dsmash to kill him. I am still able to conclude that Brinstar cost you the match (which was out of your control) twice within 1 stock, and interfered at NUMEROUS other times which you have yet to respond to (including the needle that sent you into the lava which you took 80% for).

i actually lol'd at your list of punishes. specifically your proposed fox punish; "uair to finish" lmfao. i don't know what the hell a finish is, but it must be good if its fox's best aerial punish. the rest of the "punishes" only made it funnier because half of them don't even work. i didn't know falcon could knee to stomp LOL

that's all i can type for now, i have to go get my uair to finishes down

 

[Teczer0]

Hax - Wobbles didn't admit to Brinstar being broken. He clearly stated that he only agrees with you to the point that a broken strategy/factor is bad.

His entire argument is based on his belief that the aspects of Brinstar is NOT broken. He is just using your statements and trying to directly refute it.

He also tried to further explain his point that the lava isn't broken by comparing it stages like YS. Because both the cloud and the lava can affect the match its pretty fair to compare the two factors.

You can only really use cases to prove the point from this point imo *shrugs*. Its difficult to change someone's mind through theory alone.

 

[Niko45]

1) The lava can give you free openings and kills that you would have never gotten on any other stage.

2) The lava can save you in situations where you would have died on any other stage.

It's not the same game on this stage due to these aspects. The fact that the neutral stages are the neutral stages establishes a general interpretation of the role a stage should ideally play in tournament matches. While you could certainly argue that it takes skill to learn this warped version of melee, it's not consistent with the way the game plays out on the other stages.

It shouldn't be banned because Peach is good there. It should be banned because of why Peach is good there. The fact that very lopsided advantages can be attained on this stage is due directly to how far the game play deviates from the game play on neutrals.

If you want to challenge the idea that neutrals aren't really neutrals and we should think of Brinstar as standard and the neutrals as the warped version of the game, I suggest you go make that thread and see how many people get behind that. Otherwise I don't see how this can be argued further.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

My opinion is that the most fair stage is the one that effects the fight the least. This usually means stationary and non-random.

Compared to every legal stage (and most non-legal stages) brinstar is the stage that interferes with gameplay the most.

I think "broken strategies" really take a back-burner when talking about what stages should be legal. While there is nothing "unfair" on these stages, the point of a tournament is to find who the best player is. To me, this implies a ruleset that is non-biased, not equally biased (which is kinda what we have now with the "well spacies get RC and floaties get brinstar" mentality).

 

[MT_]

Wobbles, you have made great points up until you discussed the legality of other stages, particularly Mute City and Pokefloats. You say you're iffy, but according to your main argument (that stages need thorough testing for "brokenness" before we should consider banning them), then you should be arguing for their legality, if not only temporary. I don't know of any broken strategies on these stages; only that they may benefit some characters more than others by nature of the stages.

For example, you say that on Mute City that lack of edges give a huge advantage to whoever is on stage at the time. Is this not similar to the point that whoever "happens" to be on the top platform in Brinstar is given a huge advantage at that point in time? Yes, we can see when the lava rises in Brinstar, but it's just as easy to see what is going to happen on Mute City.

Wobbles, if you can address this that'd be awesome. You have made some very compelling arguments thus far, but when Sveet asked you what you thought about these several other stages, I was somewhat confused/disappointed in your answer because of the above reasons.

 

[Youngling]

^ best post in this thread

 

[Wobbles]

Wobbles if i didn't make it obvious enough by stating that i purposefully made a lame post (which took me 2 minutes as opposed to 30 minutes): you trolled me to that point. your arguments are so ridden with double standards that i don't even know if you're being serious anymore. your attempts to justify Brinstar rely on you admitting that it is broken, and then comparing its brokenness to other stages that you suggest are also broken, yet neutral. right off the bat, you began by admitting that Brinstar is broken; not exactly the best gameplan for an argument. as for your attempt to relate its brokenness to other stages, out of all the Randall links you posted, 3-4 of them were legit (not counting the Randall "combo video," which was a compilation of people using techniques that would never be used in tourney that happened to be interrupted often by Randall.) I ask you, out of how many YS clips do you think Randall interferes? i'd say 10%; this is a bit weak when compared to Brinstar's lava which skews 100% of its matches. to use a derogatory statement you should be all too familiar with: glad your debate coach taught you how to weigh arguments.

Actually, the points were:

--If a stage lends itself to broken or degenerate strategies, it should be banned.
--Brinstar does not necessarily meet these criteria.
--Your examples of it being broken were poor examples because in every case you can clearly demonstrate how the player "being beaten by the level" screwed up. For example, attempting to continue a combo when you can see the lava rising is a mistake on that level.
--I was making analogies to other stages because the fact is that every stage has aspects that interrupt what we consider "normal" play. The only difference is that we are intimately familiar with how to deal with those, but we don't take Brinstar's properties into account when making decisions.
--10% is pretty substantial bro. That's a decent shot at altering the outcome of a tournament finals match. In fact, if it really IS one in ten games, then if the grand finals went into 5th match both sets, statistically speaking he will seriously influence one of those matches.
--Of course, I've also argued elsewhere that it doesn't really constitute match interference because he's on a strict timer and if you don't pay attention then it's your fault for being taken by surprise.

no, you could not have done anything to prevent Brinstar from costing you the match; ESPECIALLY when it stopped your grab infinite. at the moment I am unaware of an IC's aerial combo that 0 to death's the opponent just as their grab infinite does; if you could teach me one then I will concede that the lava did not affect the outcome of the match.

Yes, the lava interrupted the death combo. However, I had no reason to be hit by it, and if I had taken it's rising into account, I could have continued to take advantage, either by controlling the edge if he DI'ed away, or landing more damage off the top platform if he DI'ed in.

as for the janky stage shape costing you the match, what could you have done? how could you have grabbed when the walls clearly prevented you from walking/running any further?

Your match comprehension is garbage. Though I stalled while walking, when I wavedashed I ended up right next to him, more than capable of grabbing. He shielded the d-smash that I threw out, which means a grab would have worked.

even if you could have, you were lone Popo; you needed a dsmash to kill him.

Nana was standing right above me on the platform. He was at too high of a percent to wiggle out immediately meaning she had time to re-sync.

Seems like you're saying "even if you HAD gotten the game winning punish it wouldn't have been a game-winning punish."

I am still able to conclude that Brinstar cost you the match (which was out of your control) twice within 1 stock

No you can't, because you apparently can't even see what's happening in the match.

and interfered at NUMEROUS other times which you have yet to respond to (including the needle that sent you into the lava which you took 80% for).

Oh, you mean the one where you said "the camera turned away and we couldn't see what happened but I'm assuming he needled you." For all we know I deserved it.

And here's the problem that we're faced with. It's an inherent flaw in your perspective on how levels relate to the match; that is to say, you don't seem to understand that the level is a PART of the match. The match can't interfere with itself. For instance, Randall doesn't interfere in Yoshi's Story battles because, having picked the level, he is now part of it. He can be a deciding factor--whether you want to admit it or not, we have proof from matches between high level players demonstrating it to be so--but we don't call him broken or an interference. Why? Because he is on a strict timer, following strict behavior patterns, and if you want to play on the level and not get ****ed over you need to be aware of his location.

The lava lets you know when it's coming. The slopes are a constant which you learn how to deal with. The membranes don't randomly NOT slow down your attacks. People who don't adapt end up crying "gay."

i actually lol'd at your list of punishes. specifically your proposed fox punish; "uair to finish" lmfao. i don't know what the hell a finish is, but it must be good if its fox's best aerial punish. the rest of the "punishes" only made it funnier because half of them don't even work. i didn't know falcon could knee to stomp LOL

I apologize for not wording it as "u-air as a finisher." I also apologize for trying to use commas to separate items as a list, rather than indicate them as sequential. For instance, "knee, stomp," does not necessarily mean knee INTO stomp, but knee OR stomp. However, you COULD say "stomp back into the lava with potential followup for a knee."

that's all i can type for now, i have to go get my uair to finishes down

You do that champ.

Edit:

MT__: Well yes, you're pretty much right on the money. By my logic Mute and Pokefloats should be unbanned unless we can demonstrate that they have broken and degenerate strategies, not just that there are segments of them that give power to other characters.

I know that analyzing positional play is pretty uncommon. I don't know where it's most advantageous for me to be during many of the Pokefloats segments, or how I would regain center stage and force people to the edge (limiting their options heavily) during clutch Mute traveling segments. I don't even know if those things are even feasible on those levels for some characters. I'm a LOT better at doing that stuff on RC because I play there pretty frequently; knowing where to go to limit approach angles, manipulating the carpets so I can poke better with u-airs and spam ice-blocks. I spend a lot of the match just going to certain spots and not really attacking.

I'm more than willing to admit I never gave Pokefloats or Mute the same attention I've given RC and Brinstar. Mostly because PF and Mute are banned nowadays and nobody even picked them while they were legal, while I see buckets of RC and Brinstar action. That's really the reason I said "iffy," I just don't have the knowledge.

 

[Rubyiris]

Rob, you're my hero.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Question

Can't some characters spam ledge invincibility when the lava covers the entire stage? Like fox, Falco, ganon, etc? Hell I think that I even saw Taj do it with mewtwo.

That way you don't have to worry about jiggs bairing you while you stand on the platform or Peach Dsmashing you. Just spam invincibility for the 5-10 seconds that the lava covers the stage.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

sheik is probably the most realistic one to do. I think m2k even tried it in a tournament match there (can't remember when) but messed up part-ways through.