I care. hop off my d*ck, herb
Strong_Bad said:
because all I see you say repeatedly in response to Wobbles is that his logic is flawed, which, believe it or not, does not refute any of his arguments.
are you sure that statement is meant for me? I've made my standpoint very clear; Brinstar/RC's characteristics exceed the ret*rdedness of any of the neutrals, and I've backed it up with numerous examples (including a video of Wobbles losing a match because of Brinstar.. TWICE in one STOCK). I'm not the one making general statements rather than actually quoting my opponent's statements and refuting them.
Wobbles said:
A caveat to this: just because the strategy appears broken or "too good" at first does not mean that the strategy is actually too good. The only way to really know for sure is through testing, improvement, and sometimes a bit of innovation. I know you'll agree with me here, because we've ALL been in situations where we thought something was "too powerful," then later on it turned out we just didn't know the counter at the time. Even stuff that seemed set in stone, like Fox's u-throw u-air, turned out to be smash DI-able. Please note, I'm not comparing this to anything specific, I'm just saying that it took us years to find out there was a consistent method of escaping a combo that long seemed inescapable for some characters.
this annoys me because you're repeating the same refuted arguments; unless you can directly refute what i'm about to say (and have already said) then don't respond at all, you're wasting my time:
there is not a single time in smash history where a STAGE thought to be too broken was discovered to be adequate for tournament play. unlike characters, stages are set in stone and their metagames do not change. you are trying to apply fox's upthrow uair becoming escapable to brinstar's lava suddenly becoming a balanced stage characteristic.
no matter how much time passes, brinstar will always be better for peach/jigglypuff than it is for other characters.
Wobbles said:
Now, here is one place where we appear to differ. I'm making the claim that because practice on Brinstar is limited, and the characters supposedly "too strong" on Brinstar are not popular, despite 10 years of the game being out we actually haven't done much that you can really call "testing" on the level. Most people accept it as law that "X character is too good here," so they ban it. We also know most people don't train on those levels, meaning these 10 years have been spent mostly practicing on the same 5 or 6 stages.
lets look at Brinstar's faulty characteristics this way:
A stage hazard that does more damage to those that fall into it
the obvious victims are going to be fastfallers. as much as you wish every character benefited the same amount from the lava, fox/falco/falcon tend to take 50% for falling in at 0 (and then die EASILY if they're up against a falcon or jiggs, or die if their non-falcon/jiggs opponent is even SLIGHTLY skilled)
A stage hazard that pops characters upwards; the best combo starter in the game imo
once again, no matter how much time passes falcon/jiggs will always benefit the most from this (mostly jiggs).
A stage hazard that eventually engulfs the entire stage except for the top platform
this ALONE should void brinstar's legality. as I said in my last post (which was not responded to..), the fighting that occurs when two players are fighting for control of a 4 foot wide stage is among the most degenerate things in the game. throw dashdancing, jumping, [insert mindgame here] out the window and reduce the game to a crouch cancelling/dsmash fest.
this is absolutely ridiculous for jiggs. jigglypuff basically doesn't lose any of the stage; she can stay in the air and space bairs the entire time while you're forced to shield. then after one of the bairs she comes down, fthrows you into the lava and you get either rested or WoP'd. keep in mind that the best strategy to avoid jiggs' grabs - to fulljump out of shield - cannot be used; you have 2 feet to either side of you so it's not like you're going anywhere. you'd just be giving jiggs a free uair; considering jiggs' uair is the worst aerial in the game to get caught with while midjump, i don't find this fair.
peach benefits equally. a crouch-canceling, dsmashing peach places a hitbox on the entire platform at any given time. of course dash-dancing/empty shorthopping are void in this case; there is no given room to move.
A stage that breaks in two
there are two sides to this
on one hand there are no good angles to approach a CC'ing peach from if she decides to camp the right side of the stage (unless you're jigglypuff or peach). this gives her the perfect opportunity to continue to pick vegetables until she gets a stitch, which is dumb, while at the same time she waits for her most favorable transformation, the lone top platform, to arrive. I completely forgot to mention that peach with a stitchface during the lone platform transformation is DUMB.
on the other hand jiggs is given retardedly good angles to bair the sh*t out of you from and keep you trapped on the right side of the stage. as I said in my last post (surprise surprise, this wasn't responded to either), during Chu's match vs Mango he was unable to follow up on his punishment when Mango messed up his bair spacing. he could not cross the abyss in time to get under jiggs; the best place to be vs her. Mango did not even have to space his bairs well to **** Chu.
A stage hazard that breaks, creating uneven ground that must be jumped across
during your match vs Rayku, you lost because you could not walk across the semi-broken particles and dsmash him. you CANNOT simply say "I could have jumped across" because then you would have been forced to use an aerial to punish, and IC's aerials obviously aren't as strong as their smashes. the stage outright protected Rayku.
A stage hazard that engulfs the entirety of the stage
random or not, Brinstar's lava engulfs the main portion of the stage and interrupts matches by forcing the players to flee to one of the platforms. they cannot simply "play around" this or "see it coming;" numerous combos in the game cannot be expanded so that the person being comboed rises about the lava and is then killed. for example, you were grab infiniting Rayku for the win when Brinstar's lava came up and stopped you. Rayku was at 20% and the only way for you to kill him was through the infinite, which could not happen because of Brinstar. you were unable to do anything about this; IC's cannot raise their opponent up into the air and then kill them. they don't even have an aerial kill move. you had no choice but to let Rayku go, and later lose a match that you would have won.
Wobbles said:
Here's a place where we can agree. Random **** you can't prepare for that screws you up and completely changes the flow of the match is not the kind of thing we're looking for. Here's where we differ: I'm saying that because you can see the lava in Brinstar rising WELL in advance via the background and other cues, you should be planning around it.
congratulations on establishing that Brinstar's lava is not random. I think you've said this in every single on of your posts; you can stop now because nobody is refuting that. unfortunately something does not have to be random to be broken; as I said in my last paragraph there was no "planning" you could have done to still get the kill on Rayku.
Wobbles said:
Here's a place we seem to disagree as well: I'm arguing that a stage differing from the flow of play on other levels does not warrant a ban of the level. Using lava as a weapon and a resource is, to me, a legitimate way of playing the game. Why? Because both players can see the lava. Because characters have different attributes, they will naturally take advantage of this to varying degrees.
you are 100% correct. except I'm not arguing that different = bad, I'm arguing that broken = bad and I've supported this with numerous examples which I've been awaiting responses to for 3 posts now.
Wobbles said:
Hell, you quote me saying something and then say I said the complete opposite. That's not flawed logic that's... lying, I guess. Or you just need to bust out The Very Hungry Caterpillar as warmup before you hit the forums.
I should have worded what I said better. what I'm trying to say is that you brush off this aspect of the lava as if its nothing (despite admitting to it). think of advertisements that say "No Refunds" at the bottom in the smallest legal font. it has to be said, even though it makes the ad less appealing. in this case, you have to admit that characters capitalize on lava differently because you'd look dumb if you said that everyone benefited from it equally even though its not something you want to admit. the problem I had with this is that the indifferent tone you used while making the statement completely underestimates the difference between Jigglypuff capitalizing on lava and Ice Climbers capitalizing on lava. this is not something to brush off; this is a huge problem.
Wobbles said:
And also, Samus' best punish would be a charge shot, or a d-air back into the lava followed by charge shot off the rebound. Just saying.)
if she has one charged, sure. it was meant to illustrate a concept (just like my Jiggs/IC's sentence in my last paragraph) rather than to serve as a primary example. I could have swapped samus with any character other than Jiggs/Falcon because none of them have ridiculous aerial punishes.
Wobbles said:
I've tried to demonstrate that all the neutral levels have interferences and influences that can drastically and instantly change the flow of the stock. Hax has claimed that Randall never does anything but force the edgeguarder to b-air.
drastically? Brinstar drastically affects matches, but the neutrals?
Dreamland 64 - the wind basically doesn't do anything..
Battlefield - there are no hazards; the faulty ledge isn't faulty if you don't hold towards the stage lol (except for with peach)
Yoshi's - do you actually mean to tell me that Randall affects matches to the extent that Brinstar's lava does? at worst you have to punish someone's laggy landing on him.
Pokemon Stadium - only hazards are the Fire/Rock stages which people typically camp during anyway. unlike Brinstar, characters are given a safe place to camp during these bad transformations
FD - the least neutral of these 5 for sure; it adds a lot of good things to the game as well though. i'm not willing to get into a 10 page debate about FD right now, but i can assure you that all characters can compete on it (despite some having advantages) unlike Brinstar.
FoD - shouldn't be a neutral imo. still not as bad as Brinstar.
Wobbles said:
For example, when Peach up+b's too close to Battlefield's edge, she won't grab it even though she's at the right height. Why do we allow a level where a recovery that would work on ANY OTHER STAGE doesn't work right? The Peach SHOULD live, but she doesn't. Why? Please answer this question.
ironic that you'd demand I answer a question..
the answer is that sacrifices have to be made when developing a stage list. if we were to ban stages for possessing such minor faults, then we would not have a single legal stage to play on. prove to me that this is a significant problem by linking me to a video of a peach SD'ing because of this. I expect that you will find yourself unable to do so and proceed to drop this argument.
also, couldn't peach just not up-b when it would finish with her right next to the stage..?
same thing goes for the Pokemon Stadium ledge
Wobbles said:
Ignore any potential comparisons to Brinstar and answer the question. What makes it alright for there to be walls on Pokemon Stadium when there are no walls on any other stages? Moreover, why is it okay for that stage to be legal when those potentially stock-saving (or destroying, if you can land a wall infinite or combo of some kind) are randomly generated? You might go a match playing on nothing but water, one on fire and rock, one on all four transformations. Those matches will look pretty damn different, especially when somebody survives Sheik's d-throw slap because they tech off the windmill, something they couldn't do in any other level. You might even say they don't deserve to live because the windmill was random, and they certainly didn't pick the water transformation.
because PS's faulty transformations also offer very powerful camping positions. it is dumb for a Fox to try to approach someone camping on the other side of the Fire or Rock transformations. simply wait it out and then return to one of the best stages in the game; the neutral transformation. the grass and water transformations are great too.
Wobbles said:
And lastly, what exactly IS "normal play?" Is it just gameplay on tournament legal levels? I mean, you're saying that Brinstar and RC shouldn't be legal because they differ from that, which is kind of circular. Kindly define normal play for me. That would really help this debate along.
"normal play" is playing SSBM with as many even matchups as possible; the most skillbased version of the game (of course this is completely theoretical). Brinstar voids this by granting 2 [already fantastic] characters 30-40% increases in their matchups.
normal play should also be void of random characteristics that prove to be too detrimental.
Wobbles, please treat every statement i've made as if the statement "respond to this" is attached. if this were a structured debate you would have lost by now for ignoring 2 posts that took me (combined) an hour to type up. instead of responding with generalized statements please quote my statements and respond to them directly. your post just now did not refute anything, it simply reiterated former points without giving examples of anything. waste of my time
