Wobbles said:
Here's your problem Hax. You are saying that the lava, because it can damage players at ALL and influence the match in ANY WAY, is *bad*. I'm saying that because you can plan around it and because you can see it coming, it is a resource that both players have access to. Not to the same extent because characters take advantage of it in different ways, but you can say the same about other stage characteristics.
please don't put words in my mouth; "influence the match in any way" is a ridiculously skewed interpretation of the point i'm making here. as pointed out in my last post (which you failed to refute), you took 80% for being needled (and should have lost your stock). this is a bit different from "skewing the match in any way;" this is a serious problem. the way you act as if all characters can capitalize equally on an opponent hit by lava is equally pathetic; jigglypuff hitting down b for a stock is a bit different from samus nairing for 12% (her best aerial punish)
Wobbles said:
Lava saving people and getting them killed... well, we can make nearly identical arguments regarding Randall on YS, if you want. Should have died, shouldn't have, gets you killed because you didn't see it coming and do some random thing that screws you over. In fact, lots of people have complained about Randall to the point of saying YS shouldn't be neutral. Even when I pointed out he's on a strict timer and it doesn't take much practice to learn to check the clock at important times, many people say you "shouldn't have to look at the clock," or "you can't be expected to do that." That doesn't even take into account hitbox stalling on Shy Guys that can ruin recoveries--or randomly help them-- or deadweighting on them from throws that changes combos. At least you can see the lava rising in the background of Brinstar. Not paying attention to that is the same as not paying attention to the level shifting on PS and not knowing that the platforms, when sunk into the level, don't entirely disappear immediately, creating weird little partitions in the stage.
Wobbles, do you know what outweighing an argument means? I don't think you do. you are attempting to justify Brinstar's lava by comparing it to Randall, who at worst forces the edgeguarder to ledgehop bair. the Shy Guys are even less significant; i cannot think of a single match where they have changed the outcome.
your logic needs to go from "if two stages each possess an abnormal stage characteristic, they are equally fair" to "certain stage characteristics affect gameplay more than others."
inb4 "DL64's wind can affect the outcome of a match"
Wobbles said:
I know how you'll respond to this: "you can't seriously be comparing NEUTRAL STAGES to the LAVA on BRINSTAR." Well, they share similar characteristics, don't they? They may not be as prominent but tell me Randall hasn't influenced the outcome of matches on YS, or you haven't been ****ed over by a platform on PS or FoD by being caught at the wrong spot in its transformation. Or if you want an example from another counterpick that you haven't talked about banning, DK64's barrel, which IS completely random and is, more often than not, off screen until the last moment, making it nearly impossible to plan around unless you're Peach or Puff. And while it can save you, you can also try and hit the other guy when he pops out. Kinda like lava! Doesn't hurt you though, except when it spits you at the bottom of the screen.
first part was responded to above; about KJ64 I have said that i'm iffy about it. as for its barrel: please stop comparing minor hazards to lava; unlike lava, KJ64's barrel takes up approximately 1/20th of the horizontal width of KJ64 at a time. and nearly all of the time someone's edgeguard is ruined because of it, they still end up getting the kill because of the free punish they have.
the barrel spitting you out at the bottom of the screen is a prime example of a characteristic you can play around. unless waiting for it to face upwards is too difficult; or perhaps not being stupid enough to mash buttons when you're in the barrel's vicinity.
i'd appreciate it if you could leave KJ64 aside for now. we should focus on one stage at once.
Wobbles said:
i'll get to the list of times at which Brinstar interfered with the match in a second; I just wanted to point out that you conceded 3 of these points, one of them being that you took 80% and should have lost your stock for being needled into the lava.
don't worry; i'm sure macsmasher89 still thinks you're ****** the thread
Wobbles said:
6:10: you can see the lava rising in the background as early as 6:05. Rayku screwed up, much in the same way I do near the end.
6:28: So?
8:00: He made a mistake and got killed for it. What's the problem here?
8:20: I was too absorbed in my CG to see the lava coming. If I'd abandoned it I could have played off the lava to combo instead, maybe into something on the top middle platform where I could have finished a handoff uninterrupted.
8:36: Don't know what you're talking about, I should have gone for a grab for a charged smash finish rather than a d-smash. I panicked because victory was so close and didn't think about the membrane delaying my hitbox or the slopes changing my speed.
I deserved that loss, and it's all stuff that I should have been watching for.
6:10 are you admitting that the lava is a significant hazard that must be avoided whenever it rises? the only strategy that could have been employed is scrambling up to the top platform, at which point the game becomes a dsmash-fest; first dsmash takes a stock. the type of fighting that occurs when both players are fighting for control of a 4 foot wide platform is among the most degenerate things in the game.
6:28 Rayku did what was necessary to kill your Nana on any other stage; he deserved the kill. while she DI'd like a ret*rd and still died, this gave you the opportunity to side-b/up-b to save her which is unfair. how are you just going to brush this off?
8:00 the problem is that if he DIDN'T DI the lava horribly (into your bair), he would have survived a smash that would have killed him on any other level.
8:20 there is nothing in the game that you could have done to still get the kill because of the lava. he was at 20% and you needed the grab infinite to kill him. what are you talking about…
8:36 that's great that if you did something differently you would have had the kill; you wouldn't have HAD to do anything differently on any other stage to get the kill. this is among numerous times Brinstar's walls have skewed a match because they halt a player from moving. whenever I get a fox/falco stuck in-between them, I usually repeatedly dair -> knee for a stock because they're unable to tech left/right away from the walls. in addition, it's virtually impossible to tell whether there are walls or not. it is based on how many particles have been broken, and I do not think it is fair to force players to count how many particles are left in the middle of a match.
Wobbles said:
But here's where you chip in and say I "shouldn't" have to watch for that stuff because I don't have to on other levels. And that's where I say "yes I do." I have to take into account random properties of the other stages ALL THE TIME. If you want to play the should and shouldn't game, how about we do this?
I SHOULDN'T have to space my forward+b more precisely with Fox and Falco to avoid going under Battlefield, when that doesn't happen on other neutrals. Why should I have to pay attention to that?
You SHOULDN'T get the benefit of FD's sloped side while recovering, because it artificially alters recovery distance on up+b moves and can make you recover when you should have died.
I SHOULDN'T need to know that there's a high tendency for stage hits to send you straight down when you hit certain parts of the wall on Yoshi's Story. It's a flat wall, why should it do that? It's quite clearly ********.
I also shouldn't know that Randall spends exactly 5 seconds inside the stage, 5 seconds outside of it, and that if you try doing certain ledge actions while he's next to you he can screw you up. That is also stupid.
I shouldn't have to know that the right side of PS's rock transformation doesn't let you roll very far onto the level, just as I shouldn't have to know that there's a slope near the tree during the fire phase that can screw up short hops. And why should I know that the grassy platform gives you an autofastfall when you run off it? That's dumb.
Look at all the random unintuitive **** you have to learn in order to play on our neutral stages. I'm pretty sure the only reason people don't think about that stuff is because... well, they don't think about it! They know it already! You know the ins and outs of those levels because you play on them constantly. You're used to paying attention to dumb **** on those stages and when you forget, either you admit that you screwed up or the people around you laugh at you.
But I guess we shouldn't have to learn ANOTHER level, right? That's just too much work for us hardcore tournament players.
seriously, do you know what outweighing means?
