Ban brinstar and rainbow cruise

[otg]

Wobbles, is BF the only neutral where platform camping is a huge problem for Icies?

 

[BigD!!!]

hey ace, with dsr, how could you get taken to one of those stages twice

i have maintained since the banning of floats that it is equivalent to cruise, and both should be legal if either are, and some mbr members told me their logic behind it was that you shouldnt have to worry about banning one then just going to the other

green greens is way, way worse than any of the moving stages, the combination of fox's lasers with his up smash/falcos lasers and double shines/close walls so ****ty spacey recovery not being an issue all adds up to it being a spacey only stage

spaceys are actually surprisingly less broken on moving stages than people think, and much better on brinstar than people think, in my experience. as wobbles said like 5 pages ago on the page it took me to when i clicked the thread for some reason, people dont have the instincts for brinstar like they do for dreamland or bf because they havent played on it a billion times

lava comes up and gets rid of all but the top platform, big deal, jump way up in the air and shine stall, it only lasts like 5 seconds

 

[MarsFool!]

umm... she survives forever there????

She has to chase you all day????????

 

[DarrellD]

green greens is way, way worse than any of the moving stages, the combination of fox's lasers with his up smash/falcos lasers and double shines/close walls so ****ty spacey recovery not being an issue all adds up to it being a spacey only stage

spaceys are actually surprisingly less broken on moving stages than people think, and much better on brinstar than people think, in my experience.

Ok, they still **** on moving stages.

lava comes up and gets rid of all but the top platform, big deal, jump way up in the air and shine stall, it only lasts like 5 seconds

Probably the worst idea ive ever heard. Spacies cant stall for 5 seconds and double jumping right below the only platform where your opponent will be is just not smart.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

*implying that Spacies aren't good at platform camping and couldn't kinda control the top platform on Brinstar before the lava even arrives*

 

[Wobbles]

*implying that Spacies aren't good at platform camping and couldn't kinda control the top platform on Brinstar before the lava even arrives*

No, I was comboing.

 

[Rubyiris]

umm... she survives forever there????

No she dies at the same relative percentages. Let's look at it this way:

Fox and Falco have lasers, and superior mobility. Fox kills Peach off the top around 20% later than usual, which is a few lasers, or a drill > shine > usmash combo. Ease. Falco's upward killing moves still ko around the same relative percentage, somewhere between 20~30% later. Again, Falco has lasers, an amazing grab game, and superior mobility.

Sheik has superior mobility. Fair spikes and Peach is easymode for Sheik to edgeguard. Uair and Usmash ko slightly later like Fox.

Marth is one of the only two questionable high/top tier characters in Marth vs Peach. Utilts still going to KO her at the same relative percentage, but koing off the side is super gay unless he tips (which is true on any stage, actually.)

Falcon's Knee only kos later if he hits peach in the center, or on the other side of the stage. She's still going to die at the same relative percentages from combos and edgeguards that she would on any stage.

Puff is the other questionable matchup. Puff has superior aerial mobility, but lesser range and no projectile, but Puff is still going to kill Peach around the same percent that she will on most of the other stages.

Ice Climbers are going to just hit peach with grab **** until shes at kill percentage so its purely irrelevant.

DL doesn't give characters like Peach a slight advantage. It gives characters like fox/falco/sheik/Falcon an advantage against characters like Peach.

 

[Summonedfist]

umm... she survives forever there????

just to clarify what rubyiris was getting at, even if she lives "forever"... it's no use if she can't *hit* her opponent, which is why people like to take peach there

lasers/dash/bairs too good

 

[-ACE-]

BigD, I meant more than one of those 3 stages in a Bo5, I worded that wrong. One of only points I've tried to make in this thread is that keeping stages like brinstar and RC reduce the character diversity we are going to see in tournaments (something I wouldn't want to see).

For example, if a ganon main wins on 2 neutrals against a fox player in a bo5, and loses on one neutral (FoD), then KJ64 because fox ran away the whole time, and then RC, that can be frustrating. I'd be very tempted to pick up fox if that was me... or if he was playing jiggs, and lost at DL64, brinstar, and kj64. One could leave that set feeling as if he had lost partially to the stage and not his opponent. Was it because he didn't play the stage as well as his opponent, or didn't possess the right knowledge of the stage? Not necessarily, since there is a clear advantage for some characters on these stages. I use ganon as an example, but similar scenarios can happen with many other characters, even with a stage ban.

I dunno, I just don't think melee's popularity (which is almost done with as it is) will last as long if it's all spacies vs jiggs with occasional sheiks and marths that hardly ever make it to top 3.... and maybe a few peaches and falcons rarely making it to top 7. *shrugs*

 

[Metal Reeper]

BigD, I meant more than one of those 3 stages in a Bo5, I worded that wrong. One of only points I've tried to make in this thread is that keeping stages like brinstar and RC reduce the character diversity we are going to see in tournaments (something I wouldn't want to see).

For example, if a ganon main wins on 2 neutrals against a fox player in a bo5, and loses on one neutral (FoD), then KJ64 because fox ran away the whole time, and then RC, that can be frustrating. I'd be very tempted to pick up fox if that was me... or if he was playing jiggs, and lost at DL64, brinstar, and kj64. One could leave that set feeling as if he had lost partially to the stage and not his opponent. Was it because he didn't play the stage as well as his opponent, or didn't possess the right knowledge of the stage? Not necessarily, since there is a clear advantage for some characters on these stages. I use ganon as an example, but similar scenarios can happen with many other characters, even with a stage ban.

I dunno, I just don't think melee's popularity (which is almost done with as it is) will last as long if it's all spacies vs jiggs with occasional sheiks and marths that hardly ever make it to top 3.... and maybe a few peaches and falcons rarely making it to top 7. *shrugs*

Too true Ace <3 I love seeing mid/low tiers owning spacies/highers in tourney. Maybe just one of these stages should be banned, it wouldn't change the game too much. And we can see if banning is a positive or negative thing.

Ace is also right because Europe doesn't really play non high tier characters (At least that I know of) (And idk the exact Pal tier list.)

 

[MookieRah]

I dunno, I just don't think melee's popularity (which is almost done with as it is) will last as long if it's all spacies vs jiggs with occasional sheiks and marths that hardly ever make it to top 3.... and maybe a few peaches and falcons rarely making it to top 7. *shrugs*

I know this is off topic, but what is the state of Melee? It seems like the Atlantic South is still doing good, particularly my surrounding area as there is a big resurgence in melee.

On topic, I can see RC being banned, as the stage overly promotes aerial mobility and the like, but I still don't see Brinstar as being all that busted. Sure it does give advantages to different characters than the norm, but I don't think it's such a drastic change that most of the cast couldn't handle themselves on it.

 

[otg]

Wobbles, you never addressed my question.

Is BF the only neutral that Icies encounter problems with platform camping? I can imagine that most of the neutrals (barring FD) present this problem, and I'm curious as to why you singled out BF over the others. Icies aren't the only character that have a hard time dealing with platform camping, look at most mid tiers and lower. It's one of the main reason why they are bad, Icies fall into this category.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Battlefield only is fair because everyone can fight on Battlefield

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

But thats not deep at all. The stage needs to be at least half of the fight between you and your opponent.

 

[Burnt_Toast]

Sorry, I guess this is technically off topic, but I didn't want to start a whole another thread just for DK64. I was wondering if anyone else has noted this ban-worthy problem with that level -

When off the ledge and falling to correct sweet-spot length, it is impossible to see the barrel because it is off the screen.

Multiple times during a ranked contest I just played with Tyrael with this stage on (me as Marth, him as Captain Falcon) one of us would be trying to sweet spot and the problem would be that the moment the barrel became visible on the screen, the moment we (unknowingly) fell into the barrel, and the moment we pushed B to perform our up B move were all pretty much the same exact moment. This resulted in probably around 3-4 undeserved SDs for each of us throughout the course of the contest. I find this problem to be much more offensive than anything mentioned thus far about Rainbow Cruise or Brinstar (though, admittedly, I could really do without those levels too).

 

[Wobbles]

But thats not deep at all. The stage needs to be at least half of the fight between you and your opponent.

Yep. That's what we said.

otg:

Battlefield is the worst almost specifically because ICs have to burn both jumps to poke through the top platform with an aerial (you barely get your u-air to go through if you time it right on BF). All the others let you poke solidly off a single jump which means you don't have such a narrow timing window to hit people, and you can use your double jump afterwards to follow up or maneuver. Battlefield leaves you a sitting duck, Dreamland is probably next in line in this regard.

Plus BF is also pretty wide, and since their air speed is pretty low that makes it worse. It's not a pleasant level to be camped on.

 

[Kanelol]

yOU ALL GOT YOUR WISH OK RAINBOW CRUISE AND BRINSTAR ARE BANNED AT DONT GO DOWN THERE JEFF

 

[Theftz22]

A stage should never take away options and force one choice. A stage that forces you to jump is bad. Goodbye RC and Brinstar.

 

[outofdashdwz]

yOU ALL GOT YOUR WISH OK RAINBOW CRUISE AND BRINSTAR ARE BANNED AT DONT GO DOWN THERE JEFF

The rule set was decided before this thread was made lol. Brinstar and Cruise were banned at GSG1 too.

 

[ArstNeio]

A stage should never take away options and force one choice. A stage that forces you to jump is bad. Goodbye RC and Brinstar.

wut

so you can not jump on FD and still win and/or do better than you would not jumping on brinstar or RC? did not know this, thanks.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I can't keep track of the sarcasm in this thread.

 

[john!]

fox can win without jumping, he just has to up-b all over the stage

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

*snoooooze*

 

[Theftz22]

wut

so you can not jump on FD and still win and/or do better than you would not jumping on brinstar or RC? did not know this, thanks.

pwahagagaha

 

[jugfingers]

edit



nvm ignore this post

 

[Atlus8]

Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise are dumb!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

^ this man had the weight of the world on his shoulders. I trust his opinion.

 

[Kanelol]

The rule set was decided before this thread was made lol. Brinstar and Cruise were banned at GSG1 too.

for real

why are we still talking about this then

 

[-ACE-]

Now it's plank's turn...

 

[Chexr]

All the poor players got the stages they're bad on banned. Can't wait until we ban Dream Land because the tree blew you off the stage or you guys ban Yoshi Story because the cloud messed up your up-b. No stage is character neutral and completely balanced.

RC and Pokefloats were completely offensive friendly and poor stages to camp and chain grab on. Maybe if you only play Samus and can't win on those stages you should pick up another character instead and get better than trying to get them banned outright and ruin it for the people who are good at other stages and like playing on them.

 

[john!]

but according to atlus, those stages are "dumb".

you don't want to play on "dumb" stages do you?

the debate is over.

 

[BigWenz]

All the poor players got the stages they're bad on banned. Can't wait until we ban Dream Land because the tree blew you off the stage or you guys ban Yoshi Story because the cloud messed up your up-b. No stage is character neutral and completely balanced.

RC and Pokefloats were completely offensive friendly and poor stages to camp and chain grab on. Maybe if you only play Samus and can't win on those stages you should pick up another character instead and get better than trying to get them banned outright and ruin it for the people who are good at other stages and like playing on them.

lolololol RC and pokefloats poor stages to camp on you say? i give you

teh spamerer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krLCZrQfZSk&feature=related

 

[-ACE-]

People are just getting over this debate, otherwise chexr's post would have been ripped apart 5 times over already.

 

[Youngling]

pwahagagaha

Who the **** laughs like this

 

[Stevo]

LuigiLover62 assures me that the Luigi board should suck his balls

I read the entire thread at work today.
That was the best post.

Although, I read all of Hax and Wobbles back and forth postings. (for the most part)

There should be a Melee side room, or melee basement, where non MBR members only get 1 post every 24 hours or something.

That way, I can read intelligent posts, and perhaps even give my opinion at the end of the day.

Spoiler

(Assumes more intelligent debates happen in the MBR)

 

[KirbyKaze]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA

INTELLIGENT DEBATE IN MBR

*dies*

 

[Gaara♥]

As a ganon main that isnt very good, I am disappointed at the thought of having Brinstar banned

 

[Wobbles]

*dies*

It just got more intelligent.

BA-ZING.

Spoiler

oh god don't **** me 3rd best ;_;

 

[Bones0]

As a ganon main that isnt very good, I am disappointed at the thought of having Brinstar banned

Fine, you can counterpick Brinstar, but I'm taking you to DK64 where you can't touch me.

 

[KirbyKaze]

It just got more intelligent.

BA-ZING.