Ussi
Smash Legend
In other news, Ganon's dark dive (the grab part) is a great on the edge finisher once you're around 100% (give or take more depending on your recovery)
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Balanced Brawl Standard Release
- Thread starter Amazing Ampharos
- Start date
- Status
JOE!
Smash Hero
There is a shockwave, yet it apparently doesnt hit...
this is similar to the Ganon Fair glitch thing methinks, its a move with something that is apparently a part of it, yet does not work or even appear for that matter, even though it is there....
this is similar to the Ganon Fair glitch thing methinks, its a move with something that is apparently a part of it, yet does not work or even appear for that matter, even though it is there....
MrEh
Smash Hero
iirc, the shockwave was designed as an anti grabbing measure. Especially pivot grabs.
my attempt at a tier list
i wanted to compare the bbrawl cast to the vbrawl cast, but it just got too messy formatting it, organizing bbrawl characters within the BBR tier list, etc. it's also kind of weird comparing bbrawl matchups and then trying to compare how, for example, the nerfed snake would be ranked in the vbrawl tier list at the same time.
it is ridiculously difficult to order the characters within the tier list without extensive play time with other people and every character. this is more like an advanced impressions list for vbrawl 2008. although, i will still try to give some order within each of the tiers, but it gets less accurate the further down i go in the tier list.
A
Probably my choice for #1. I base this on the fact that 0 to death chaingrabs are still entirely plausible and everything else is either better or the same. HOWEVER, assuming a legit ruleset (unlike the most popular vbrawl rulesets right now which favor the ICs), the three games in any given set will probably go down on stages like PS1, Mario Circuit, or Japes...it's not like ICs are terribly handicapped on these stages though. ICs will be the most changed character between BBrawl 2.0 and 3.0, which makes me believe ICs are, indeed, #1. They still have a few tough or legitimately bad matchups though; Snake is still a pain and Peaches/ROBs would ideally be more common in the BBrawl environment without Menace Knight dominating (and both characters are strictly better now).
Not much has changed about this guy, the lack of grab releasing is obviously a plus but it doesn't seriously change many matchups, only the ones where wario had issues getting inside in the first place (marth, peach, ddd). The nature of this character means he can play on pretty much any stage but I also find that he's the kind of character that has tons of neutral matchups and is very dependent on what players are playing out any given matchup since Wario relies on forcing the opponent's mistakes. It feels like a good Wario should be able to go toe to toe with any character on pretty much any stage. I could see Warios winning the most BBrawl tournaments, not necessarily because he's the best but because he's the most flexible and always has the option of simply avoiding confrontation until it suits him.
Well, he's pretty much the same, but slightly less ridiculously rewarding and polarizing. I believe Ally could win a BBrawl tournament of top players, which is why I think he's still deserving of "top" tier status.
Very little changes for this already very solid character. He probably gets a net gain from increased stage variety and his overall matchup spread doesn't seem to have changed much (easy ones got harder, harder ones got easier, balances out somewhat). Not having to deal with Mach Tornado is a huge boon.
Clearly the most unchanged character. Like ICs, he worsens a bit with greater stage variety and his counters or tougher matchups being more common in the bbrawl environment.
Surprise! A new entry to the top ranks, Wolf is a big winner in the transition from vbrawl to BBrawl. Dedede, Pikachu, and Sheik lose their abuses on him and MK is much easier to deal with now. Add the fact that Wolf got a pretty serious buff (he should always pick stages with walls or no offstage), his already very good vbrawl matchup spread (aside from the above 4 exceptions), his mobility, attack speed, safety, survivability, and power and you have a top character.
~~~~~
Overall, A tier contains the best brawl characters that weren't nerfed much or at all, plus one that was probably high B just with his abuses removed and without his main buff. Wolf should rarely if ever get gimped now, which was his main weakness (stupid locks aside). I could place Wolf in A- and have Falco take his place, but I feel Wolf is a serious enough threat at this point that A status isn't unwarranted.
~~~~~
A-
A very good character, I wouldn't doubt that I'm making a mistake by not placing this guy in A. His throws still have great damage output on a correct read with the added bonus of being viable kill setups later on. He got a very nice recovery buff as well. However, increased stage viability is probably a slight nerf.
He's pretty much the same. As Brawl has advanced, it seems like Game and Watch has progressively gotten worse but his biggest buff is probably the fact that he has a ton of new stages to play around with. This is around where I'd place him with a more liberal stage list in vbrawl.
Meh, it's tough for me to get excited about this guy. Same boring guy, with a slightly less **** fair and no more grab release stuff on half of the cast. The removal of RCO lag is a pretty nice bonus for Marth in some matchups.
My, how the mighty have fallen. To sum it up, I believe MK loses to Falco, Olimar, Wario, Diddy, ICs, and probably Snake. That's a lot of very good characters. Below the top levels, he's a little more manageable but still a top threat, mainly because those characters can't deal with his spacing as well and/or are more vulnerable to gimping.
He's mainly this good because MK isn't as good anymore. Pretty solid, if basic character who can hang with anyone in the cast.
Ha-cha! Peach has some pretty great stuff going for her. For one, she's one of the characters that loves the MK nerfs, who was probably her worst matchup. Two, her KO power is now "okay", which is great for how amazing her pressure game is. Three, there are so many things she can do out of Peach Bomber...it's crazy. A little high, you say? Perhaps, but there's no doubt she's very, very good now. The Bomber buff is a big gamechanger in my opinion, and all it takes is a smart, dedicated Peach main to prove it. It makes her pressure game even better and allows her to punish quite a bit of stuff she couldn't punish before.
~~~~~
I flipped Team Disjoint around quite a few times before settling on what I have here. I just feel like MK has too much of an issue landing a KO on most stages. I may be underestimating the Dimensional Cape buff a bit, but I definitely feel like MK is a notch lower than the top characters.
~~~~~
B+ and B
Her jab is amazing and gives her a very powerful option up close. The stunner is now a good setup move and her aerial game is still top notch.
:shiek:
Nayru's Love does a lot of things for Zelda at the same time. It improves her recovery, gives her a way to approach/punish/retreat, sets up a possible KO, and makes her a lot more fun. Sheik simply does what she's always done, but better.
Just as annoying as before, Pikachu is one of the best damage rackers in the game. Very mobile and campy. Down throw is a very potent trap and forward smash is a powerful spacing tool.
Da Weeg has a solid long range poke with Fireball and a surprisingly good dash attack that can punish stuff he couldn't do much about before. A little safer and just as threatening up close.
Lucario doesn't strike me as anything special. Pretty standard, he's a little worse off since he won't be living as long and there are a lot more characters around to compete at his level.
He's fast, he's got a pretty good recovery now, and his KO power has always been good. He could stand to be a little safer.
Ness is legit...very good shield pressure and juggling capabilities with a solid, well-rounded grab game backing it up.
The love is spread a little more evenly in bbrawl. Still, stamina encourages opponents to play as slowly as possible in order to make the matchup much easier on themselves. At least all three are decent and switching is a bit faster. He's got a pretty long learning curve too.
Very balanced all around, doesn't exceed at anything but is solid enough to work around any matchup.
No joke...this character lives forever on some stages, is as gay as ever, and can actually do some very good damage up close.
I'm kind of torn on Dedede. The down throw change depolarized a lot of things for the penguin, but the general buffs made to the rest of the cast lead me to believe that he's fallen a bit. I don't think the tech chase is enough of an overall improvement over the chainthrow to keep him in high.
Fsmash is a good KO move, and that's about it for TL's changes. Still as campy and safe as before. Spin Attack is an interesting OoS option.
~~~~~
It's really late so I'll condense these two tiers for now. I'm having a very tough time ordering these guys and deciding who to put in this middle third of the cast, Pit, Sonic, DK, and Kirby could very well be here as well.
~~~~~
C+ and C
:everyoneelse:
Everyone is pretty viable now, I think Link still has a few difficult matchups because his recovery is quite lame. Ike struggles a lot vs Olimar...Ganondorf probably has a matchup here or there that's really difficult. Everyone else probably has a majority of even to slightly disadvantageous matchups, still viable but not going to really scare anyone in tournament.
i wanted to compare the bbrawl cast to the vbrawl cast, but it just got too messy formatting it, organizing bbrawl characters within the BBR tier list, etc. it's also kind of weird comparing bbrawl matchups and then trying to compare how, for example, the nerfed snake would be ranked in the vbrawl tier list at the same time.
it is ridiculously difficult to order the characters within the tier list without extensive play time with other people and every character. this is more like an advanced impressions list for vbrawl 2008. although, i will still try to give some order within each of the tiers, but it gets less accurate the further down i go in the tier list.
A
Probably my choice for #1. I base this on the fact that 0 to death chaingrabs are still entirely plausible and everything else is either better or the same. HOWEVER, assuming a legit ruleset (unlike the most popular vbrawl rulesets right now which favor the ICs), the three games in any given set will probably go down on stages like PS1, Mario Circuit, or Japes...it's not like ICs are terribly handicapped on these stages though. ICs will be the most changed character between BBrawl 2.0 and 3.0, which makes me believe ICs are, indeed, #1. They still have a few tough or legitimately bad matchups though; Snake is still a pain and Peaches/ROBs would ideally be more common in the BBrawl environment without Menace Knight dominating (and both characters are strictly better now).
Not much has changed about this guy, the lack of grab releasing is obviously a plus but it doesn't seriously change many matchups, only the ones where wario had issues getting inside in the first place (marth, peach, ddd). The nature of this character means he can play on pretty much any stage but I also find that he's the kind of character that has tons of neutral matchups and is very dependent on what players are playing out any given matchup since Wario relies on forcing the opponent's mistakes. It feels like a good Wario should be able to go toe to toe with any character on pretty much any stage. I could see Warios winning the most BBrawl tournaments, not necessarily because he's the best but because he's the most flexible and always has the option of simply avoiding confrontation until it suits him.
Well, he's pretty much the same, but slightly less ridiculously rewarding and polarizing. I believe Ally could win a BBrawl tournament of top players, which is why I think he's still deserving of "top" tier status.
Very little changes for this already very solid character. He probably gets a net gain from increased stage variety and his overall matchup spread doesn't seem to have changed much (easy ones got harder, harder ones got easier, balances out somewhat). Not having to deal with Mach Tornado is a huge boon.
Clearly the most unchanged character. Like ICs, he worsens a bit with greater stage variety and his counters or tougher matchups being more common in the bbrawl environment.
Surprise! A new entry to the top ranks, Wolf is a big winner in the transition from vbrawl to BBrawl. Dedede, Pikachu, and Sheik lose their abuses on him and MK is much easier to deal with now. Add the fact that Wolf got a pretty serious buff (he should always pick stages with walls or no offstage), his already very good vbrawl matchup spread (aside from the above 4 exceptions), his mobility, attack speed, safety, survivability, and power and you have a top character.
~~~~~
Overall, A tier contains the best brawl characters that weren't nerfed much or at all, plus one that was probably high B just with his abuses removed and without his main buff. Wolf should rarely if ever get gimped now, which was his main weakness (stupid locks aside). I could place Wolf in A- and have Falco take his place, but I feel Wolf is a serious enough threat at this point that A status isn't unwarranted.
~~~~~
A-
A very good character, I wouldn't doubt that I'm making a mistake by not placing this guy in A. His throws still have great damage output on a correct read with the added bonus of being viable kill setups later on. He got a very nice recovery buff as well. However, increased stage viability is probably a slight nerf.
He's pretty much the same. As Brawl has advanced, it seems like Game and Watch has progressively gotten worse but his biggest buff is probably the fact that he has a ton of new stages to play around with. This is around where I'd place him with a more liberal stage list in vbrawl.
Meh, it's tough for me to get excited about this guy. Same boring guy, with a slightly less **** fair and no more grab release stuff on half of the cast. The removal of RCO lag is a pretty nice bonus for Marth in some matchups.
My, how the mighty have fallen. To sum it up, I believe MK loses to Falco, Olimar, Wario, Diddy, ICs, and probably Snake. That's a lot of very good characters. Below the top levels, he's a little more manageable but still a top threat, mainly because those characters can't deal with his spacing as well and/or are more vulnerable to gimping.
He's mainly this good because MK isn't as good anymore. Pretty solid, if basic character who can hang with anyone in the cast.
Ha-cha! Peach has some pretty great stuff going for her. For one, she's one of the characters that loves the MK nerfs, who was probably her worst matchup. Two, her KO power is now "okay", which is great for how amazing her pressure game is. Three, there are so many things she can do out of Peach Bomber...it's crazy. A little high, you say? Perhaps, but there's no doubt she's very, very good now. The Bomber buff is a big gamechanger in my opinion, and all it takes is a smart, dedicated Peach main to prove it. It makes her pressure game even better and allows her to punish quite a bit of stuff she couldn't punish before.
~~~~~
I flipped Team Disjoint around quite a few times before settling on what I have here. I just feel like MK has too much of an issue landing a KO on most stages. I may be underestimating the Dimensional Cape buff a bit, but I definitely feel like MK is a notch lower than the top characters.
~~~~~
B+ and B
Her jab is amazing and gives her a very powerful option up close. The stunner is now a good setup move and her aerial game is still top notch.
:shiek:Nayru's Love does a lot of things for Zelda at the same time. It improves her recovery, gives her a way to approach/punish/retreat, sets up a possible KO, and makes her a lot more fun. Sheik simply does what she's always done, but better.
Just as annoying as before, Pikachu is one of the best damage rackers in the game. Very mobile and campy. Down throw is a very potent trap and forward smash is a powerful spacing tool.
Da Weeg has a solid long range poke with Fireball and a surprisingly good dash attack that can punish stuff he couldn't do much about before. A little safer and just as threatening up close.
Lucario doesn't strike me as anything special. Pretty standard, he's a little worse off since he won't be living as long and there are a lot more characters around to compete at his level.
He's fast, he's got a pretty good recovery now, and his KO power has always been good. He could stand to be a little safer.
Ness is legit...very good shield pressure and juggling capabilities with a solid, well-rounded grab game backing it up.
The love is spread a little more evenly in bbrawl. Still, stamina encourages opponents to play as slowly as possible in order to make the matchup much easier on themselves. At least all three are decent and switching is a bit faster. He's got a pretty long learning curve too.
Very balanced all around, doesn't exceed at anything but is solid enough to work around any matchup.
No joke...this character lives forever on some stages, is as gay as ever, and can actually do some very good damage up close.
I'm kind of torn on Dedede. The down throw change depolarized a lot of things for the penguin, but the general buffs made to the rest of the cast lead me to believe that he's fallen a bit. I don't think the tech chase is enough of an overall improvement over the chainthrow to keep him in high.
Fsmash is a good KO move, and that's about it for TL's changes. Still as campy and safe as before. Spin Attack is an interesting OoS option.
~~~~~
It's really late so I'll condense these two tiers for now. I'm having a very tough time ordering these guys and deciding who to put in this middle third of the cast, Pit, Sonic, DK, and Kirby could very well be here as well.
~~~~~
C+ and C
:everyoneelse:
Everyone is pretty viable now, I think Link still has a few difficult matchups because his recovery is quite lame. Ike struggles a lot vs Olimar...Ganondorf probably has a matchup here or there that's really difficult. Everyone else probably has a majority of even to slightly disadvantageous matchups, still viable but not going to really scare anyone in tournament.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
I agree with Steeler's list.
I think Zelda/Sheik are a biiit to high (and that Pit is underrated) but more or less great.
Wario being the second best
"About ****ing time"
I think Zelda/Sheik are a biiit to high (and that Pit is underrated) but more or less great.
Wario being the second best
"About ****ing time"
Ussi
Smash Legend
i've been wondering.... What about MK's frame perfect planking? If that does get looked at.... Gotta slow down uair so it's a bigger disadvantage... (but I would buff something else)
JOE!
Smash Hero
allright, but that still doesnt change the fact that it doesnt hit...
(also, how would it prevent a grab unless it is like ganondorf's range?)
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2007
- Messages
- 12,542
- Location
- RPV, California
- NNID
- A2ZOMG
- Switch FC
- SW 8400 1713 9427
Everything you stated makes perfect sense Steeler, I have to commend you for having the ability to actually organize a list when none of us have really been able to analyze the game as much as we would like.
I think however Samus is better than DDD. She really isn't worse than him at scoring the KO, she's better at maneuvering around traps, and has better spacers and OOS options.
I think however Samus is better than DDD. She really isn't worse than him at scoring the KO, she's better at maneuvering around traps, and has better spacers and OOS options.
Okay, big news. I didn't want to reveal things like this, but I have to.
The news is that the next release has an anti-planking code. I will quote what will soon be on the main site's global changes page:
In developing the code (I made some use of shanus's fighter.pac injection thread as a reference, but otherwise I developed it by myself), I made a few cryptic remarks in this thread. I was excited; I couldn't help it. However, shanus himself guessed what was going on and PM'd me about it. I decided I would, in confidence, inform him about the full story and give him access to the code. This gave him a fair head start to tweak the code to his personal preferences; I felt it a nice courtesy to allow him to do this. I was pretty clear though; this was confidential. I wasn't using this code publicly in any way yet, and it was made for my project first and foremost. He was to keep it under wraps until the Balanced Brawl standard release, and at that time he could make use of it in his own projects as he saw fit. After the test build, he sent me a message asking if he could start putting it in Project M internal files and if we had started distributing it. I gave him a clear no. I thought things were under control here.
I was so very wrong. Confidence was breached. Some of you may notice the Brawl+ "gold" release includes... a ledgegrab code! In fact, it's shanus's adaptation of MY ledgegrab code, the one I was very clear I was only sharing with him in confidence and was not to be made public. I honestly can't actually do anything about this to remove the offending code or get some compensation for the damage to my project's hype this does; what am I going to do, sue? However, the one thing I can do is make the situation clear. The Brawl+ gold release is not golden at all; gold does not tarnish, and this release has the tarnish of extreme breach of confidence, it's basically a baby step above stealing on the ethical scale. I feel as though this leaves me with no choice on my action but to attack back with honesty. Honestly, they acted in an extremely unethical way, and the truth needs to be out there so they do not long term profit from their behavior.
I'm actually going to go all-out on the honesty here. This project was largely founded out of a dislike of Brawl+. Our initial internal development name, before we decided on "Balanced Brawl" when we made it public, was ironically Brawl-. This was a joke; we were making a modification to the game that was the opposite of Brawl+. Since Brawl+ was an imbalanced mess and generally sucked and generally turned Brawl not into Melee but rather a pale mockery of Melee, that means our game was well designed and well balanced and preserved the true spirit of Brawl, a game we legitimately do love. When we released, we had a conflict with the Brawl+ people some of you may remember. At first, we didn't care even a little what they thought, but we decided for the sake of civil interaction on the forum we would agree to their terms of using their silly formatting standards for code credit (another funny story about that and how I deserve partial credit for their stale moves code that I never got, another time though). In exchange, we'd have public peacefulness, and more importantly we would be free and open with our code resources. My ledgegrab code was not released, but I even went the extra ethical mile here to make sure they would have access to it tweaked to their personal needs from the very start. I followed through 100% on my end of the agreement. They have released Brawl+ basically undocumented (which is about the same as closed code) and with a new kind of ethical violation, probably expecting me to respond kindly and be easily run over. Well, forget that. We will continue to follow our end of the bargain because Thinkaman and I are honorable men, but I think peace is over.
All I ask of those here who are in support of Balanced Brawl is that you be informed of the truth, and that you make sure anyone in the greater smash community you meet who is moved by the ledgegrab code in Brawl+ is corrected to know the truth of the code and that it is Balanced Brawl they have to thank for it. I do ask you not go and troll the Brawl+ people over this; they'll see this post, probably make some pathetic attempt to defend the indefensible ("We didn't know!" Yes you did, and if you honestly didn't you're just ignorant to the point of no excuse so don't even try it. You could have contacted me over this if you really had concerns instead of just doing it.), and maybe even respond angrily to the public hostility. I again legitimately do not care how they feel, but this project is all about the moral high road so I'm making it clear before anyone does anything stupid. Don't troll Brawl+ in their threads; I suggest not posting in their threads at all. Just let the truth come out on its own, and let the natural order of righteousness take care of them. If you have pent up remarks about Brawl+ in comparison to this project though, I certainly am no longer going to be wanting to stop you from posting them in this topic. Just remember; Balanced Brawl's theme of the day is "ethical high road". The best way to support this project is peaceful, civil representation of the truth.
If you are representative of the Brawl+ topic and reading this, I just suggest thinking carefully about what you have done and what you should do. You should frankly be ashamed. If you feel defensive and don't think what you did was wrong somehow, I only hope for your sake that you tread carefully as righteousness always wins in the end. If you are legitimately apologetic, I am sure there is some path to absolution you can find though the damage here both to my project's hype and to any spirit of trust we had is real and will not heal. That is all I have to say to you.
Oh yeah, and we're aiming for Friday for our release, but it may be Monday. We are working very hard to deliver you quality; we hope you don't mind waiting for that.
The news is that the next release has an anti-planking code. I will quote what will soon be on the main site's global changes page:
Now, we were planning on releasing this with a cool video and the next standard release. This was going to be our surprise, a planking fix, the solution to standard Brawl's most annoying abuse. Now allow me to explain why I didn't do that.
In developing the code (I made some use of shanus's fighter.pac injection thread as a reference, but otherwise I developed it by myself), I made a few cryptic remarks in this thread. I was excited; I couldn't help it. However, shanus himself guessed what was going on and PM'd me about it. I decided I would, in confidence, inform him about the full story and give him access to the code. This gave him a fair head start to tweak the code to his personal preferences; I felt it a nice courtesy to allow him to do this. I was pretty clear though; this was confidential. I wasn't using this code publicly in any way yet, and it was made for my project first and foremost. He was to keep it under wraps until the Balanced Brawl standard release, and at that time he could make use of it in his own projects as he saw fit. After the test build, he sent me a message asking if he could start putting it in Project M internal files and if we had started distributing it. I gave him a clear no. I thought things were under control here.
I was so very wrong. Confidence was breached. Some of you may notice the Brawl+ "gold" release includes... a ledgegrab code! In fact, it's shanus's adaptation of MY ledgegrab code, the one I was very clear I was only sharing with him in confidence and was not to be made public. I honestly can't actually do anything about this to remove the offending code or get some compensation for the damage to my project's hype this does; what am I going to do, sue? However, the one thing I can do is make the situation clear. The Brawl+ gold release is not golden at all; gold does not tarnish, and this release has the tarnish of extreme breach of confidence, it's basically a baby step above stealing on the ethical scale. I feel as though this leaves me with no choice on my action but to attack back with honesty. Honestly, they acted in an extremely unethical way, and the truth needs to be out there so they do not long term profit from their behavior.
I'm actually going to go all-out on the honesty here. This project was largely founded out of a dislike of Brawl+. Our initial internal development name, before we decided on "Balanced Brawl" when we made it public, was ironically Brawl-. This was a joke; we were making a modification to the game that was the opposite of Brawl+. Since Brawl+ was an imbalanced mess and generally sucked and generally turned Brawl not into Melee but rather a pale mockery of Melee, that means our game was well designed and well balanced and preserved the true spirit of Brawl, a game we legitimately do love. When we released, we had a conflict with the Brawl+ people some of you may remember. At first, we didn't care even a little what they thought, but we decided for the sake of civil interaction on the forum we would agree to their terms of using their silly formatting standards for code credit (another funny story about that and how I deserve partial credit for their stale moves code that I never got, another time though). In exchange, we'd have public peacefulness, and more importantly we would be free and open with our code resources. My ledgegrab code was not released, but I even went the extra ethical mile here to make sure they would have access to it tweaked to their personal needs from the very start. I followed through 100% on my end of the agreement. They have released Brawl+ basically undocumented (which is about the same as closed code) and with a new kind of ethical violation, probably expecting me to respond kindly and be easily run over. Well, forget that. We will continue to follow our end of the bargain because Thinkaman and I are honorable men, but I think peace is over.
All I ask of those here who are in support of Balanced Brawl is that you be informed of the truth, and that you make sure anyone in the greater smash community you meet who is moved by the ledgegrab code in Brawl+ is corrected to know the truth of the code and that it is Balanced Brawl they have to thank for it. I do ask you not go and troll the Brawl+ people over this; they'll see this post, probably make some pathetic attempt to defend the indefensible ("We didn't know!" Yes you did, and if you honestly didn't you're just ignorant to the point of no excuse so don't even try it. You could have contacted me over this if you really had concerns instead of just doing it.), and maybe even respond angrily to the public hostility. I again legitimately do not care how they feel, but this project is all about the moral high road so I'm making it clear before anyone does anything stupid. Don't troll Brawl+ in their threads; I suggest not posting in their threads at all. Just let the truth come out on its own, and let the natural order of righteousness take care of them. If you have pent up remarks about Brawl+ in comparison to this project though, I certainly am no longer going to be wanting to stop you from posting them in this topic. Just remember; Balanced Brawl's theme of the day is "ethical high road". The best way to support this project is peaceful, civil representation of the truth.
If you are representative of the Brawl+ topic and reading this, I just suggest thinking carefully about what you have done and what you should do. You should frankly be ashamed. If you feel defensive and don't think what you did was wrong somehow, I only hope for your sake that you tread carefully as righteousness always wins in the end. If you are legitimately apologetic, I am sure there is some path to absolution you can find though the damage here both to my project's hype and to any spirit of trust we had is real and will not heal. That is all I have to say to you.
Oh yeah, and we're aiming for Friday for our release, but it may be Monday. We are working very hard to deliver you quality; we hope you don't mind waiting for that.
shanus
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 6,055
AA, the code they included actually wasn't mine on first release of 7.0. They actually made their own with Kirk's assistance (I in no way provided them with mine until after the fact).
In fact, I too was extremely surprised when I opened their text file on 7.0 and saw a code (looked extremely similar to the version you first sent me long ago) written by Kirk. I was simply perusing their text file to see if they included by dead frame fix and PS buffer fix and stumbled on a code with a title similar to "Greater than 3 ledgegrabs makes you auto stand" or something like that. I was not aware they were making one, and they actually made it the sunday night before release! I think you can contact anyone on the B+ team and they will vet for the fact that I had no interaction in the development of this code. If you contact anyone on the Project M team, you will find in our forum that the existence of your code is highly caveated and not to be made public. It was actually first brought to the attention of the entire WBR in your post, and in no way related to me for its generation.
However, the code they released was extremely flawed and caused rampant crashes. It had injection points overlapping with other codes, and simply had many oversights on how to code it properly. In their effort to quickly try and fix what was deemed a terribly flawed and buggy build, I offered my assistance and modified my old iteration and gave them to it to fix their Gold release (hence 7.0.2). Hope this clears up the issue at least on my end. I meant no harm to you by it in any means, I only offered them help when their own code caused crashes.
If you would like to chat about it on the IRC with me, I'd gladly chat too.
In fact, I too was extremely surprised when I opened their text file on 7.0 and saw a code (looked extremely similar to the version you first sent me long ago) written by Kirk. I was simply perusing their text file to see if they included by dead frame fix and PS buffer fix and stumbled on a code with a title similar to "Greater than 3 ledgegrabs makes you auto stand" or something like that. I was not aware they were making one, and they actually made it the sunday night before release! I think you can contact anyone on the B+ team and they will vet for the fact that I had no interaction in the development of this code. If you contact anyone on the Project M team, you will find in our forum that the existence of your code is highly caveated and not to be made public. It was actually first brought to the attention of the entire WBR in your post, and in no way related to me for its generation.
However, the code they released was extremely flawed and caused rampant crashes. It had injection points overlapping with other codes, and simply had many oversights on how to code it properly. In their effort to quickly try and fix what was deemed a terribly flawed and buggy build, I offered my assistance and modified my old iteration and gave them to it to fix their Gold release (hence 7.0.2). Hope this clears up the issue at least on my end. I meant no harm to you by it in any means, I only offered them help when their own code caused crashes.
If you would like to chat about it on the IRC with me, I'd gladly chat too.
If they had independently developed their own code, that would have been fine. It would have been a well-earned victory, and it would have been exposing a legitimate flaw in our strategy of waiting (though if it was inspired by what I said in the WBR, it's still murky). Offering what was in confidence was wrong. I sense you didn't intend malice, but it was wrong, and in the end what you do matters more than what you mean to do. What they should have done is retracted ledgegrab codes from Brawl+ until our release if they decided they needed to use our code. I wouldn't have been angry if you told them about the confidence situation and had them wait but allowed them to know what was up, but the way things panned out was just unacceptable. I don't have anything else to say over this at this time.
Ussi
Smash Legend
That AA is waay better than i expected and probably works out better!
... any chance Ike can lose his 5th aether non-latch and be forced into a ledge get up?
... any chance Ike can lose his 5th aether non-latch and be forced into a ledge get up?
shanus
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 6,055
Looking back on the issue, I figured that since the code principal was out in the wild (their given their code worked but caused crashes, the available option) I did not think that my involvement to fix their code would be looked on by you as a negative action. In retrospect, I agree with you that I should have consulted you first. However, as one of the few people with knowledge out there on how to program codes like this, I don't feel that me offering my assistance to any developers at the time is something worthy of outright insult, especially given that my intentions were purely to help people (first I wrote the guide so you'd know how to make the code, and I helped you streamline the code, and I think even streamlined it further in the latest iteration). I apologize for any form of involvement, but with that said I don't think this in any way shape or form will actually damage your project...
Anyways, I'll stop posting.
As an Ike main, you should know that Ike's non-latch Aether is on the 7th ledgegrab, not the 5th. That means that interaction basically can't come up in Balanced Brawl; at least I can't imagine a way.
You should change that to "Being tripped". "Tripping" makes people think of the vBrawl random-fall-on-your-face-due-to-dash mechanic, which obviously doesn't exist anymore. New people might be confused.
As to the overall announcement:
One question though --What exactly is the interaction between entering the water and the ledge grab counter? I'm assuming that entering water increments the ledge grab counter as if you had grabbed a ledge; if so, does resurfacing also increment the counter? (e.g., after being spiked while in the water.)
Essentially, the ledge grab counter and the "water stalling counter" are really the same variable, right? (This seems like the intuitively correct answer.) Or do you have to grab the ledge seven times and then fall into the water before drowning? (...what?) The wording of the announcement was not absolutely clear to me; perhaps I'm just an idiot, but clarification would be appreciated.
As to the whole code thing...bleh. I'll be sure to politely point out that it is a Balanced Brawl code if it comes up in discussion. I don't think the hype for the next release needs to be diminished by this; Balanced Brawl appeals to a different audience than Brawl+ anyway.
Mr. Escalator
G&W Guru
I wouldn't mind for clarification either, but I don't suspect it would be an issue if it were entering and resurfacing, as getting put in hitstun resets the counter.
Needless to say, I am hyped for this. You guys have outdone yourselves :3
Needless to say, I am hyped for this. You guys have outdone yourselves :3
Mit
Smash Ace
So, entering hitstun means getting hit by any move pretty much, correct?
The Samus comment threw me for a whirl as I began to think it required something more particular. If it didn't reset upon getting hit, it'd pretty much only reset when getting grabbed, and that could be exploited like crazy...
The Samus comment threw me for a whirl as I began to think it required something more particular. If it didn't reset upon getting hit, it'd pretty much only reset when getting grabbed, and that could be exploited like crazy...
Ganon's dtilt trips people, but not always near in front of him... At high percents the opponent trips and slides away... is that intended? I can imagine why the move works in this way now, but i can't find the change in the Technical Change List.
I think surfacing after being hit increments the counter, but yeah being hit resets it anyway so it just means you exit the water after a series of spikes with your counter at 1 and not at 0. I didn't explicitly test this actually, but I know it doesn't force you to drown from being spiked (the guy doing the spiking kinda has to watch his count if he keeps it going for a long time though).
Also, yeah, it's pretty much any move, but there are some rare exceptions. Moves that don't inflict hitstun at all (Fox's laser, Charizard's fully spaced fair, a few other obscure cases) don't reset the counter. Also, Mario's Cape does not reset it (the move is weird), and "push" moves (G&W uair wind, FLUDD, etc.) also don't reset it. Of course, hitstun is hitstun so getting hit by a stage hazard or your own explosive does reset it as long as there's some hitstun involved (constant off-stage damage, of course, doesn't count).
As per tripping, yeah I put the random tripping change right after that on the list so hopefully people would notice. The reason I didn't say "being tripped" is because running over a banana peel sitting on the ground will also reset it, and I'm not sure of the best way to word it given that circumstance.
Yes, the water and ledge variable are the same. Entering the water or grabbing the ledge increments the same variable.
Also, yeah, it's pretty much any move, but there are some rare exceptions. Moves that don't inflict hitstun at all (Fox's laser, Charizard's fully spaced fair, a few other obscure cases) don't reset the counter. Also, Mario's Cape does not reset it (the move is weird), and "push" moves (G&W uair wind, FLUDD, etc.) also don't reset it. Of course, hitstun is hitstun so getting hit by a stage hazard or your own explosive does reset it as long as there's some hitstun involved (constant off-stage damage, of course, doesn't count).
As per tripping, yeah I put the random tripping change right after that on the list so hopefully people would notice. The reason I didn't say "being tripped" is because running over a banana peel sitting on the ground will also reset it, and I'm not sure of the best way to word it given that circumstance.
Yes, the water and ledge variable are the same. Entering the water or grabbing the ledge increments the same variable.
Mit
Smash Ace
Hmm, have you ever considered allowing some intentional way to reset the counter? (you know, aside from hurting yourself, which not every character can do). Something like a taunt would be nice. I can just still picture some scenarios where one might be punished for it even though he wasn't planking or winning by an absurd amount. Mostly when edgeguarding a lot (grabbing the edge and dropping off and continually attacking an opponent with a good recovery, for example), or when you get into some kind of water-spiking fight at lower damages (continually using spike moves against an opponent repeatedly trying to surface).
I wouldn't suggest anything more than say, a taunt, but I don't know, I'm still iffy about the change, and feel like I'd still need to let opponents who don't plank know about the change, as there may be a chance still that they're doing something legit and get a forced standup out of nowhere.
EDIT: Oh, another suggestion would be when you yourself grab someone. I can't think of any effective planking strategies that involve grabbing the ledge continually and grabbing your opponent...
EDIT2: Or just hitting your opponent with a ground move for that matter. Are there any planking strategies that involve ground moves? I guess this would go along with whatever your reasoning might have been for not allowing reset when your feet touch the stage.
I wouldn't suggest anything more than say, a taunt, but I don't know, I'm still iffy about the change, and feel like I'd still need to let opponents who don't plank know about the change, as there may be a chance still that they're doing something legit and get a forced standup out of nowhere.
EDIT: Oh, another suggestion would be when you yourself grab someone. I can't think of any effective planking strategies that involve grabbing the ledge continually and grabbing your opponent...
EDIT2: Or just hitting your opponent with a ground move for that matter. Are there any planking strategies that involve ground moves? I guess this would go along with whatever your reasoning might have been for not allowing reset when your feet touch the stage.
The current model of implementation involves resets being at specific actions. That means detecting when you hit with an attack is impossible. Having taunting reset or landing a grab reset it is possible (though note with the grab each command grab would have to be a special case if they are to be included; command grabs were already a big chunk of effort just victim side), but I'm not such a fan. The current model is simple enough.
The reasoning for not resetting when your feet touch the ground is simple but two-fold. For one, it's non-trivial to implement without introducing edge-cases (stuff like landing during Luigi's Luigi Cyclone and sliding off-stage before it ends is pretty much impossible to detect unless you make a specific case just for it). I'd rather have a consistent, predictable code than a code that has a certain behavior most of the time but not all of it. Also, it doesn't really fix run-away if that's a reset condition. Think about it. Meta Knight stalls on the ledge, does something tricky like Mach Tornado through you, and just runs to the opposite ledge. This should not reset it. Most situations where touching the ground is the only difference are cases like this, cases where the person being inhibited is attempting to stall up to the limits of the game or is being extremely disingenuous about actually confronting the enemy. I honestly would prefer the game be fairly unforgiving to people like that. I have no problem with playing to win (I exercise it myself frequently), but good game design makes attempting to break the system as difficult as possible.
The water spiking situation I don't feel that bad about. The only way it comes up is if you are chaining spikes rapidly, and honestly think about it. A water spike situation is a 0-death if the attacker has amazing execution. This is acceptable, but it's not really good. How is it bad in any way for them to be forced to stop after racking a very large but non-lethal amount of damage? If you land 5 dairs as Falco and they aren't dead, I'm not sure you deserve more guaranteed dairs. You have the benefit of the damage of 5 dairs which is a good chunk. That's when you need to back off and let them get out of the water, which they too have an urgency to do since they can't stay down there indefinitely.
Also, while drowning is pretty bad (you lose your stock... though every way you could be forced into the water that I can imagine is a reset condition), a forced ledge climb isn't really that bad. If the opponent is right at hand and ready for it, you get punished. If there's a more complex situation, it's highly likely you get on the stage in a somewhat bad position but have a chance to protect yourself. If you are edgeguarding them, this probably means you just fail to continue to keep them off and can enjoy the benefits of 5 ledge grabs worth of off-stage pressure that you already got. I don't mind that this code once in a while is relevant in honest games; the fact that it's mostly obscure is good enough. We ran test matches like G&W dittos on Norfair, and it still really only came up when one side was really focusing on being abusive. At the point your thought process is "I'm trying to break the game", I think it's fair that the game gets to start fighting back.
The reasoning for not resetting when your feet touch the ground is simple but two-fold. For one, it's non-trivial to implement without introducing edge-cases (stuff like landing during Luigi's Luigi Cyclone and sliding off-stage before it ends is pretty much impossible to detect unless you make a specific case just for it). I'd rather have a consistent, predictable code than a code that has a certain behavior most of the time but not all of it. Also, it doesn't really fix run-away if that's a reset condition. Think about it. Meta Knight stalls on the ledge, does something tricky like Mach Tornado through you, and just runs to the opposite ledge. This should not reset it. Most situations where touching the ground is the only difference are cases like this, cases where the person being inhibited is attempting to stall up to the limits of the game or is being extremely disingenuous about actually confronting the enemy. I honestly would prefer the game be fairly unforgiving to people like that. I have no problem with playing to win (I exercise it myself frequently), but good game design makes attempting to break the system as difficult as possible.
The water spiking situation I don't feel that bad about. The only way it comes up is if you are chaining spikes rapidly, and honestly think about it. A water spike situation is a 0-death if the attacker has amazing execution. This is acceptable, but it's not really good. How is it bad in any way for them to be forced to stop after racking a very large but non-lethal amount of damage? If you land 5 dairs as Falco and they aren't dead, I'm not sure you deserve more guaranteed dairs. You have the benefit of the damage of 5 dairs which is a good chunk. That's when you need to back off and let them get out of the water, which they too have an urgency to do since they can't stay down there indefinitely.
Also, while drowning is pretty bad (you lose your stock... though every way you could be forced into the water that I can imagine is a reset condition), a forced ledge climb isn't really that bad. If the opponent is right at hand and ready for it, you get punished. If there's a more complex situation, it's highly likely you get on the stage in a somewhat bad position but have a chance to protect yourself. If you are edgeguarding them, this probably means you just fail to continue to keep them off and can enjoy the benefits of 5 ledge grabs worth of off-stage pressure that you already got. I don't mind that this code once in a while is relevant in honest games; the fact that it's mostly obscure is good enough. We ran test matches like G&W dittos on Norfair, and it still really only came up when one side was really focusing on being abusive. At the point your thought process is "I'm trying to break the game", I think it's fair that the game gets to start fighting back.
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2009
- Messages
- 16,415
Question: Can you still rudder camp on Pirate Ship?
Stealth Raptor
Smash Legend
according to what AA posted no, after 5 seconds of continuous swimming you will auto drown
To be more specific, continual swimming upward... which can only come up on Pirate Ship.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
And various SSE areas, but that doesn't relate to the project's goals 
ぱみゅ
❤ ~
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2008
- Messages
- 10,010
- Location
- Under your skirt
- NNID
- kyo.pamyu.pamyu
- 3DS FC
- 4785-5700-5699
- Switch FC
- SW 3264 5694 6605
So, water behavior is the same as before?
The behavior is the same (edit: AS NORMAL BRAWL!), except that if you get in the water *seven* times without taking damage (or dying), the water police will assume you are misbehaving and let you drown automatically.
To double clarify, the water behavior is damage independent. It's like standard Brawl water except if you enter it too much (or grab ledges too much and then jump in) without actually fighting someone, your character will drown. It's much, much, much, much less intrusive than that old change you are referencing.
Edit@kyokoro: You are absolutely correct, he did say that; I fail badly at reading comprehension. Ignore this.
@AA: Fair enough.
<Wall of text removed for browsing friendliness, since it asked for something that apparently cannot be done anyway.>
ぱみゅ
❤ ~
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2008
- Messages
- 10,010
- Location
- Under your skirt
- NNID
- kyo.pamyu.pamyu
- 3DS FC
- 4785-5700-5699
- Switch FC
- SW 3264 5694 6605
IIRC, AA himself said was impossible for the game detect when you hit someone...
And also, honestly, you don't deserve an "infinite" if you keep landing water spikes. I have no problem with you being forced to stop after you land 5+ of them; honestly you should have been forced to stop and let them out of the water in the first place. You control when you're in the water; being in the water is "bad". If you insist on spending prolonged periods of time in it, don't you only have yourself to blame?
The current list of characters with complete technical change lists on the site:
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Link
Sheik
Ganondorf
Samus
Pit
R.O.B.
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Olimar
Fox
Falco
Captain Falcon
Pikachu
Pokemon Trainer
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Marth
Ike
Ness
Lucas
Mr. Game & Watch
The current list of characters with complete technical change lists on the site:
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Link
Sheik
Ganondorf
Samus
Pit
R.O.B.
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Olimar
Fox
Falco
Captain Falcon
Pikachu
Pokemon Trainer
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Marth
Ike
Ness
Lucas
Mr. Game & Watch
Can we still expect the release tomorrow?
Probably not, sadly. Thinkaman went out of town this weekend, probably got some good data playing Bbrawl with the St. Louis crew but wasn't available to get work done. It's seriously very close though, within the week.
I also found a bug in ICs at the last minute that we need to fix (nothing big and nothing difficult, but we do need to fix it). Sorry documentation, video stuff, and quality assurance is taking longer than I initially thought; it's basically a matter of us only being two people means delays just kinda happen if we want to maintain our very high standard of quality. I hope everyone understands.
I also found a bug in ICs at the last minute that we need to fix (nothing big and nothing difficult, but we do need to fix it). Sorry documentation, video stuff, and quality assurance is taking longer than I initially thought; it's basically a matter of us only being two people means delays just kinda happen if we want to maintain our very high standard of quality. I hope everyone understands.
ぱみゅ
❤ ~
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2008
- Messages
- 10,010
- Location
- Under your skirt
- NNID
- kyo.pamyu.pamyu
- 3DS FC
- 4785-5700-5699
- Switch FC
- SW 3264 5694 6605
Well, we already waited over 6 months, one week wouldn't affect at all...
Anyways, back to Eyeada's post, it's really impossible to detect when you hit something?
I mean, how the game determines stalling then?
Anyways, back to Eyeada's post, it's really impossible to detect when you hit something?
I mean, how the game determines stalling then?
Hitting something doesn't put you in any unique actions is the only thing (landing a grab aside!). The current model for the ledge grab code relies on your character's action ID and the logic executed by any particular action. We don't have access to the game's source code so some subsystems (such as the stale moves system) aren't exactly flexible. People found where the constants are stored (largely thanks to ColinJF and I!), but actually altering the mechanics of stale moves is just beyond us at this time. It's one of those things build more deeply into the game's engine I think, probably not very flexible.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Btw, had an argument with plank saturday (in person, go figure)
why would pokemon Stadium not be considered a neutral?
why would pokemon Stadium not be considered a neutral?
ぱみゅ
❤ ~
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2008
- Messages
- 10,010
- Location
- Under your skirt
- NNID
- kyo.pamyu.pamyu
- 3DS FC
- 4785-5700-5699
- Switch FC
- SW 3264 5694 6605
I see... So, clarifying, that's why you stated "put on a hitstun state"?
Although the game can detect that you hit or you're being hitted, you coders cannot do pretty nothing about it since the "hit" engine cannot be configured, imaright?... makes sense for me.
@JOE!
As a TO, I do always consider PS1 neutral...
Although the game can detect that you hit or you're being hitted, you coders cannot do pretty nothing about it since the "hit" engine cannot be configured, imaright?... makes sense for me.
@JOE!
As a TO, I do always consider PS1 neutral...
Dunno, why wouldn't it be? It's a starter stage in Bbrawl as a stage in the second row. Are you getting confused with Pokemon Stadium 2?
- Status