Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[JOE!]

No, for our tourney, Plank was the TO and said PS1 was a counterpick stage...

 

[ぱみゅ]

Only complain I get about PS1 is the Windmill...
the ledge issues looks pretty random/player's fault for me...

 

[Steeler]

you can just jump through the windmill by holding down. although you can have someone at high percent "camp" under it to survive your KO moves.

my bigger problem with the stage is the total stoppage of battle during the rock/fire transformations. lylat should be the 5th CP stage over PS1 but it's a good 7/9 neutral...although personally my bbrawl starter list would be

(7)
FD
BF
SV
Wifi
Lylat
Yoshi's
Delfino
(9)
Halberd
Siege
(11)
PS1
Pictochat

 

[ぱみゅ]

I personally do not like Lylat (is a pain in the *** for the already bad Zelda recovery)... but is a good starter, though...

 

[Steeler]

oh, another stage "concern" i have

spear pillar

the ground breaking event is incredibly lame sometimes...i don't think it's feasible to predict when it comes (understated dialga animation that is very short) and if you are standing on the ground (not an uncommon occurence), there is a 1 in 3 chance that you will get the ground taken out from under you and possibly boned.

additionally, the "lip" under the grabbable edges counts as ceiling and not wall, which makes recovering weird for a lot of characters (holding the control stick into the stage and hitting the "wall" before the edge means you will likely die, diddy has some problems recovering here).

iduno, i'd personally like to see this stage neutral without the ground-breaking (the other stuff, except maybe the "slow time" is okay with me) and possibly with the little slant near the edges made walls. maybe a slowdown like pictochat is in order? although that'd make the slow time event REALLY slow...

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I don't really see why you wouldn't just accept a more opened up game in the first place though... Bbrawl works to add diversity to the game; having anything but a wide stage list seems like a poor move to me.

Honestly, as well, I kinda want to push on this particular recommended stage list because I not only think it's pretty agreeable for reasonable people, but the idea is to make the game more of a "just play" game and less of an "argue over rules" game. I mean, the game itself is suggesting a stage list to you; everyone can just use it, play the same game, and be happy and not have to have endless arguments and regional philosophies and all this other nonsense that gets in the way of a successful tournament community (anyone who doesn't think the discord over stages hurts smash is delusional, but the nature of standard Brawl leaves people on all sides with no choice but to fight on).

I mean, do you know the only reason people in Street Fighter communities read tournament threads is to see where the event is and who is going? They don't even read the rules; they don't have to since all tourmaments have the same rules. Pick whichever character you want, and do whatever you want in the matches. Smash is not Street Fighter, but this simple sort of ruleset is something that I hope Balanced Brawl can move Smash a little closer to because it really is a good thing for the game and the community.

Of course, with stage rules, I would also remind everyone that Balanced Brawl is not standard Brawl, and even stages that saw no direct changes are... different. Mario Circuit is a much better stage in Balanced Brawl pretty much regardless of what you thought of it in standard Brawl, and we didn't change Mario Circuit at all. It's just that Balanced Brawl mechanics and character balance work out to make a stage with walk-offs on both sides far more acceptable than before.

EDIT:

Spear Pillar is mostly handle-able if you stay on your toes with the ground breaking (the removal of Ike naircide was informed by this actually). The lip is just something you have to learn to deal with; there's no good reason with any character to press into the sides of stages while recovering. It's a bad habit, and it's only your own good luck that only some stages punish it. In particular, I think recovering on Spear Pillar is very similar to recovering on Luigi's Mansion with the ledges; you just can't press into the stage at all, but if you don't, you are fine. I'm not sure how it's a problem for Diddy Kong or anyone; just aim at the ledge and not near the ledge, and it works fine.

 

[Steeler]

well, pressing into the stage is for when you are a little further to the left/right than you'd like and you need to do so in order to snap the ledge. sometimes your character has a big enough sweetspot for it to not matter but it is still pretty strange when you are basically right next to the ledge and the character is stuck on the "ceiling".

it's only a problem for diddy kong when he's just barely closer to the cave than the ledge is and has to aim "out" even a little bit because his sweetspot range drastically diminishes in that case. i haven't tried it but the same situation could be a problem with ike if he's too far to direct himself toward the ledge.

it's not really a big problem (the ground breaking is a much bigger deal imo) but the only reason i mention it is because it looks really strange and unnatural for characters to be unable to direct themselves over to the ledge even though they are right next to it and the slope "should" logically let them do so.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You really shouldn't be in those positions though. You either used air control or aerial moves to go too close to the stage before going to the ledge (when you should have just gone to the ledge instead of putting yourself in a difficult under the lip situation), or you DI'd a spike toward the stage instead of away from the stage (which is usually bad for more reasons than just the lips). I mean, if you are a character who can wall jump on an applicable stage, being there makes sense, but otherwise, I see being in those positions in the first place as a good sign of the first mistake.

Regardless though, that's not why I'm posting. The technical change lists are so close to done that it will be shorter to list characters who don't have a page up:

Yoshi
Zelda
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Wolf

Every other page is up. I have to talk to Thinkaman before I can put ICs page up but it's mostly ready otherwise. Wolf, Yoshi, and Zelda are just the end of the alphabet and will be done pretty soon no doubt (they shouldn't be particularly hard, though Yoshi will be fairly lengthy). Kirby will be... fun.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Also, for the record, FD is a counterpick stage disguised as a starter.

 

[JOE!]

Also, for the record, FD is a counterpick stage disguised as a starter.

^this

FD gives too much leeway for so many characters, and gives disadvantages to just as much...

I mean, the existance of Diddy should make that a CP

 

[Linkshot]

^this

FD gives too much leeway for so many characters, and gives disadvantages to just as much...

I mean, the existance of Diddy should make that a CP

You mean existence of Air PreferenceFalco.

 

[Lokee]

I agree with the spear pillar thing. the stage is fine for the most part except the ground bursting makes it difficult. In my matches with Ussi and Rc, I was Ganon and all of the sudden BOOM ground breaks beneath me and I had aready used one jump and without ledges to grab on to, well I died. Also can be said for with the ground breaks on the far left and far right which destroys the grabbable ledges hindering many recoveries.

What we need is further exploration in stage hacking so we could take out the script for the Ground Break or maybe add wind hitboxes that pushes your character upward when the ground break occurs. Stage hitbox editiong would be ideal to fix the stages that are too overpowered in terms of hazards.

We had doubles on Port Aero Drive and frankly the cars are still gay and what makes it worse when Ike just stands there using Eruption as the cars just pass through him. :o

Also if stage hitbox editing is more possible levels like Norfair could be amazing counterpicks for characters like Ganon

Also I find Pikachu's Dthrow kinda overwhelming. It should not always have a garanteed setup.

 

[Linkshot]

An extensive stage hacker is in dire need, for sure.

SPEAR PILLAR
- Add the Offensive Collision that BoE and Green Hill Zone have for when the section disappears.
- Change the corner to "ledge"

PORT TOWN: AERO DIVE
- Make the track hitbox do less damage
- Remove all knockback from the cars, but keep the damage the same.

NORFAIR
- It's fine; if anything, nerf Knockback on Fire Spouts.

GREEN GREENS
- Set Bombs to Angle 270. This will not only make the glitch non-lethal, but adds strategy to the blocks; rearrange until bombs are at the bottom to cut off recovery options!

PIRATE SHIP
- Set the Cannonball sweetspot to Dizzy element. This prevents instant kills, but still punishes stupidity (and rewards the opponent for forcing you into it). THIS WILL NOT STOP YOU FROM DYING IF YOUR STATE IS "In Air". IN THIS CASE, SDI DOWN DURING HITLAG TO SURVIVE.

RUMBLE FALLS
- Set the gravity to Low when the chokepoint rolls by.

Any other stages with something massively offensive?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Green Hill Zone's Checkpoints to make less knockback is the main thing you missed

btw, if 75m were changed to have less dangerous hazards, it would be an eight-minute battle...

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The choke point on Rumble Falls isn't bad. Some characters can actually go around to the left and right, and regardless, it's never hard to get up. The "Speed Up!" event is the main offender on that stage as well as the current glitch Bbrawl introduces with the Pokemon Trainer.

There is no such stage as Port Town Aero Drive. Did you perchance mean Port Town Aero Dive? In any case, I don't think the cars are that bad in a competitive sense, but I agree on a surface level they're jarring, they probably punish a lack of stage knowledge too much, and it's not a stage I'm pushing for. It and Flat Zone 2 are the main two stages that would benefit from stage hazard editing (Why do people not remember Flat Zone 2 when talking about this stuff? It's so close to being a great stage!).

How is Norfair not already a good counterpick for Ganon? I know a Ganon main in St. Louis who loves Norfair, and while the fire pillars can sometimes be a little frustrating while there's nothing at all wrong with the other hazards, they're very far from ample justification to ban the stage. Norfair does not justify much change even if we had the ability.

In terms of editing script, sure changing the dynamics of Spear Pillar's crumbling would be nice. The stage is still fine without it. The main benefactors of such script editing would be Rumble Falls and WarioWare Inc.. I know these are actually touchy points since some people seem to prefer the idea of completely ruining the stages like Brawl+ does, and some people even seem to think that interactive stages are bad in general or that somehow serious play benefits from focusing moreso on non-interactive stages. I disagree vehemently with that train of thought; interactive stages are very important to Brawl. I know some of the stage stuff is against some people's intuitions, but I have put a lot of thought into it and for this release especially have made sure every stage change somehow makes the stage in question more of an asset to the game. WarioWare with no games adds another legal stage, but it hurts the game (SSE stages are kinda the same). I'm not including it like that. I would like to be able to tweak the prize system so WarioWare could be an asset to the game (as it stands, it basically is a non-entity), but I can't change the reality of the situation.

I'd prefer to avoid hypotheticals as we focus on moving toward this release. What we already have is great; I'm sad we couldn't do more, but there's always going to be more that we wanted to do but couldn't. The best thing we can do is focus on the great things that are going to be in this release. In terms of stages, that means that, even if they're not "perfect", we have a solid set of 27 legal stages that we can really enjoy. The next release may have even more, but for now, isn't 27 pretty great?

 

[Steeler]

WarioWare with no games adds another legal stage, but it hurts the game (SSE stages are kinda the same).

i don't agree with this. how does it hurt the game? the stage does not exist in competitive bbrawl, for all intents and purposes. with it you have another stage option...i can only see this as being a good thing, you could still simply choose not to use it for whatever reason.

you can argue that it would be better with altered mini-games than without them at all, but no mini-games is better than the unaltered stage we have now, competitively speaking.

could we replace distant planet with the hyrule temple hack? the soft circle camping of DP bothers me a bit. or just make the main vine platform a drop-through.

 

[Ussi]

PORT TOWN: AERO DIVE
- Make the track hitbox do less damage
- Remove all Put a set knockback from the cars, but keep the damage the same.

I doubt we just want every single car damaging a person but gets caught by one.. unless you meant not even flinching?


Also @Lokee, Pikachu has a craptastic roll distance... Ganon can punish Pikachu too easily for that once hit by dtilt (longest trip animation too!) and a wizkick can kill Pikachu early for being the 5th lightest x_x

also...... "don't get grabbed"

 

[G.D.]

i don't agree with this. how does it hurt the game? the stage does not exist in competitive bbrawl, for all intents and purposes. with it you have another stage option...i can only see this as being a good thing, you could still simply choose not to use it for whatever reason.

you can argue that it would be better with altered mini-games than without them at all, but no mini-games is better than the unaltered stage we have now, competitively speaking.

I respectfully disagree with this.

Balanced Brawl, I would hope, is not a tourney machine. I like WarioWare, Distant Planet, and EVEN NEW PORK CITY, as do some of the friends I casually play BB with. Now generally I would agree that competitive play should be placed over casual in most regards, but... I think it's obvious that turning WarioWare from a wacky-and-fun-if-not-entirely-srs-stage into what would, more or less, be another Yoshi's Island would do little to nothing for the competitive scene. It's not as though it would do much as a counterpick (at least, that another stage couldn't do just as well), even without the mini-games.

 

[Linkshot]

I doubt we just want every single car damaging a person but gets caught by one.. unless you meant not even flinching?


Also @Lokee, Pikachu has a craptastic roll distance... Ganon can punish Pikachu too easily for that once hit by dtilt (longest trip animation too!) and a wizkick can kill Pikachu early for being the 5th lightest x_x

also...... "don't get grabbed"

I did mean without flinching.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I respectfully disagree with this.

Balanced Brawl, I would hope, is not a tourney machine. I like WarioWare, Distant Planet, and EVEN NEW PORK CITY, as do some of the friends I casually play BB with. Now generally I would agree that competitive play should be placed over casual in most regards, but... I think it's obvious that turning WarioWare from a wacky-and-fun-if-not-entirely-srs-stage into what would, more or less, be another Yoshi's Island would do little to nothing for the competitive scene. It's not as though it would do much as a counterpick (at least, that another stage couldn't do just as well), even without the mini-games.

^That.
Sure, it's a new stage to the list, but doesn't add the "variety" BBrawl is looking for.

 

[Mit]

I'm not sure if it was nerfed at all in the latest release candidate (I'm one behind), but Zelda's Nayru's Love buff seems a little crazy. It's like a super wavedash from melee. She can just slide across the level and cancel into anything she wants while moving, and can gain great aerial momentum and go into any air move she wants.

I mean I get that she's pretty bad, but it seems like a bit much. Maybe it's not as good as I'm thinking it is because we were mostly playing FFA's tonight (3 people), but it felt a little out of control, and more than a little unprofessional looking (another one of those things that screams "this is a mod!").

I really can't think of any reasonable nerfs for it, short of just getting rid of allowing it to cancel into moves, or getting rid of the slide and keeping the ability to cancel into moves.

 

[G_Man]

I'm not sure if it was nerfed at all in the latest release candidate (I'm one behind), but Zelda's Nayru's Love buff seems a little crazy. It's like a super wavedash from melee. She can just slide across the level and cancel into anything she wants while moving, and can gain great aerial momentum and go into any air move she wants.

I mean I get that she's pretty bad, but it seems like a bit much. Maybe it's not as good as I'm thinking it is because we were mostly playing FFA's tonight (3 people), but it felt a little out of control, and more than a little unprofessional looking (another one of those things that screams "this is a mod!").

I really can't think of any reasonable nerfs for it, short of just getting rid of allowing it to cancel into moves, or getting rid of the slide and keeping the ability to cancel into moves.

Zelda lost her massive priority, because the damage becames the factor for priority-matters (if i remember it right). I saw that by using Ganon's aerial downB. In standard Brawl Zelda's Upsmash defeats Ganons aerial DownB, but in Balanced Brawl Ganon's Move eats through Zelda's smash. I want to say: You can use any move against Nayru's Love, if that move is stronger (makes much more damage). Sure...the new Nayru's Love is a really good buff, but Zelda needs some approach. She was a good wall, but nothing more. With the buff, she can approach on her own.

I think Cpt. Falcons UpB deals to much damage in comparison to Ganon's UpB. I know, Ganon's Up B has in addition the uppercut (that is amazing powerful in BBrawl) and the knockback-angle from the throw-part is perfect for edgeguarding... but CF deals 22% (!) damage with his move... Ganon only 15%. With Jab-Cancel and stuff CF can rack damage very fast. Both UpBs can also used as a second grab with more range. A ganon-player should get more/the same reward for hitting with this move onstage... or CFs UpB should be nerfed.

 

[Steeler]

ganon's wizkick goes through it only because it has invincibility in bbrawl.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Zelda lost her massive priority, because the damage becames the factor for priority-matters (if i remember it right). I saw that by using Ganon's aerial downB. In standard Brawl Zelda's Upsmash defeats Ganons aerial DownB, but in Balanced Brawl Ganon's Move eats through Zelda's smash. I want to say: You can use any move against Nayru's Love, if that move is stronger (makes much more damage). Sure...the new Nayru's Love is a really good buff, but Zelda needs some approach. She was a good wall, but nothing more. With the buff, she can approach on her own.

I think Cpt. Falcons UpB deals to much damage in comparison to Ganon's UpB. I know, Ganon's Up B has in addition the uppercut (that is amazing powerful in BBrawl) and the knockback-angle from the throw-part is perfect for edgeguarding... but CF deals 22% (!) damage with his move... Ganon only 15%. With Jab-Cancel and stuff CF can rack damage very fast. Both UpBs can also used as a second grab with more range. A ganon-player should get more/the same reward for hitting with this move onstage... or CFs UpB should be nerfed.

Ganon's Down-B still sucks...it's unsafe on block. Shield -> free Smash. He can only use it to punish commitments anyway. If you don't make a mistake, he doesn't hit you with it.

Captain Falcon's Up-B currently does 19% as opposed to 22%.

Ganon should never really be using Up-B for anything but recovering due to how slow it starts up, in which case it's the better move at punishing failed edgeguard attempts due to its gimp potential. Otherwise if you're going to use Ganon's Up-B, you might as well F-air aerial opponents or dashgrab grounded ones.

Falcon's Up-B buff however I think is a necessary buff for making him viable.

 

[G_Man]

ganon's wizkick goes through it only because it has invincibility in bbrawl.

The Move has invincible frames, but not the air-version... isn't it?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Zelda lost her massive priority, because the damage becames the factor for priority-matters (if i remember it right). I saw that by using Ganon's aerial downB. In standard Brawl Zelda's Upsmash defeats Ganons aerial DownB, but in Balanced Brawl Ganon's Move eats through Zelda's smash. I want to say: You can use any move against Nayru's Love, if that move is stronger (makes much more damage). Sure...the new Nayru's Love is a really good buff, but Zelda needs some approach. She was a good wall, but nothing more. With the buff, she can approach on her own.

First of all, a move would have to have 10 more damage then it to out prioritize, which really isn't an issue with either version of Brawl.
Also, Aerial Wiz Kick also got the inviciblity.
The buff is really stupid and doesn't fit her as the wall, I'm really thinking SA or more reflecting or a timing change would fit the move better and make her better as a walling character she was designed to be.

Zelda approaching like that just doesn't seem right...

 

[Ussi]

First of all, a move would have to have 10 more damage then it to out prioritize, which really isn't an issue with either version of Brawl.
Also, Aerial Wiz Kick also got the inviciblity.
The buff is really stupid and doesn't fit her as the wall, I'm really thinking SA or more reflecting or a timing change would fit the move better and make her better as a walling character she was designed to be.

Zelda approaching like that just doesn't seem right...

Well din's fire can't force an approach so she has to approach now

Naryu's love is not amazing though, easy to hit it out with a disjoint from a diagonal direction.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Well din's fire can't force an approach so she has to approach now

Naryu's love is not amazing though, easy to hit it out with a disjoint from a diagonal direction.

Therein lies a balance problem. Most high tier characters can usually beat it out, where as low tier characters (ones she doesn't have trouble with) gets beat by it.

 

[JOE!]

Not everyone has a disjoint from a diagonal direction....

 

[A2ZOMG]

Zelda is such a dumb character...She's limited and bad...and a pain in the *** to fix creatively.

Something that just occurred to me right now, what if you upped the damage of Din's Fire (while reducing the knockback numbers so the knockback doesn't become too outrageous)? The reason I'm suggesting this is because Din's Fire gets easily outprioritized by a number of lingering moves (which usually do fairly low damage). Just for the sake of forcing the airdodge to a greater extent mainly. As a side bonus the extra damage also should be worth something on shielding opponents as well.

I think it would also be somewhat worthwhile to consider knocking off a few frames of lag from that move as well to increase the "frame advantage" of that move.

 

[Linkshot]

The problem with that is Din's Fire only has one Offensive Collision, which has low damage. The change is a "Change Hitbox". If you add one damage to the Offensive Collision, it's 33% stronger overall.
Fully charged Din's Fire would do about 30 damage...

 

[ぱみゅ]

The Nayru's buff is sure odd, but spam it isn't just a great idea (see PAWNCH Heavy Armor).

About Din's, it was a very extense discusion from a while back.
imo, only making it trascendant can be a great addition. Sure, anyone would struggle in order to addapt to it, but now isn't that worthless...
If you think it would be too much of a change, I'll tell you: as a defensive character, she should at least, BAIT AN APPROACH.... (and even Yoshi got a very good change with the Eggroll....)

 

[Mit]

Is it possible to make Din's Fire safe on block? Or perhaps even give her a frame advantage?

I envision using it to hit your opponent in the back (I'll often fly Din's fire past my opponent, and they will sometimes spotdodge too early, or I'll atleast hit shield), hitting their shield, bumping them closer to you, then punishing with a grab or if they drop shield at all.

I swear Nayru's Love is crazy though. You shouldn't even be running to cover distance on a stage. Just Nayru's Love across the stage and cancel into whatever you were planning on doing. Run away from people with it too. If they try and throw/shoot something at you it won't hurt, and there's no ending lag to punish. I think it can punish commitments to far more moves than super Pawnches can as well. It's pro for gimping poor recoveries too. Just Nayru's Love on out there (you can cover a fairly significant horizontal aerial distance with it), hit them with a kick (even if it's flubbed) to interrupt their double jump, use your double jump (or even better, footstool :D ), and warp back to safety. I did this against a Mario trying to recover with relative ease.

Again, as someone brought up, I think it ***** a lot of her already decent/better matchups in her favor, and doesn't help a lot in her bad matchups.

 

[Ussi]

i thought of three things for din's fire

1) Change angle it sends you in. Either away from you to keep the defense going, or towards Zelda to combo into a move. Downwards is a no

2) heavy shield damage + transcend, this would force powershielding or air dodging

3) instead of knockback it puts character in the shieldbreak stun. (dunno how that works for the air)

but din'a fire actually won't help her bad MUs like G&W...... I think Naryus would be more useful....

 

[CountKaiser]

This may seem condescending, ignorant, and overall insulting to ask, but who all plays BBrawl?

No, seriously, either I live under a rock, or it seems that this hasn't really picked up any sort of significant following. I can't tell if this project is failing or prospering. A straight answer would be appreciated, no condescending remarks or anything.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The problem with that is Din's Fire only has one Offensive Collision, which has low damage. The change is a "Change Hitbox". If you add one damage to the Offensive Collision, it's 33% stronger overall.
Fully charged Din's Fire would do about 30 damage...

And is there anything really wrong with that? =P

I mean come on, Samus does almost that much damage with her Charge Shot...and nobody is complaining about that.

And I'm dead serious anyway, it should do that much damage for how much it sucks at hitting people who can just airdodge. They shouldn't be able to attack through it though, and if the knockback is an issue, just tone it down.

 

[Linkshot]

This may seem condescending, ignorant, and overall insulting to ask, but who all plays BBrawl?

No, seriously, either I live under a rock, or it seems that this hasn't really picked up any sort of significant following. I can't tell if this project is failing or prospering. A straight answer would be appreciated, no condescending remarks or anything.

Go here.
That's the chatbox for people that play bBrawl.
Personally speaking, my community never picks up hacks. They play it once just to laugh at the people wanting to change vBrawl.

 

[ぱみゅ]

@A2: Because Samus' Beam cannot change its direction.
@CountKaiser: Well, isn't very popular since B+ already existed, but the current discussions were about expand our reach.
@Ussi: Well, DF isn't used at all against him anyways, Zelda can only try to wall him until he figures out he can just Fair/Bair through anything she tries...

@Din's: Other thing may could be done is make it able to cancel into something, again, to efectively bait an approach.
@Nayru: Its buff makes her get close her, but approaching is something she just didn't did back on vBrawl... isn't that a major change of character concept from vBrawl to BBrawl?

 

[Linkshot]

To be fair, Zelda's character concept in vBrawl was "Don't use in Singles"

 

[ぱみゅ]

LoL.
If my current signature weren't a BBrawl advertisement, I'd sig that.